Sending out instructions to your deal team at 1am after memorial day isn't good leadership

Why is this acceptable?

Radio silence all day(which is good) then at 1am start firing off emails on deliverables to junior staff.

In what organization outside banking would this be acceptable?  Am I expected to be up at 1am ready to receive these messages? Why not send in the morning like a normal human being?   I'm convinced bankers are some of the worst leaders in corporate America.

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Comments (52)

Jun 4, 2021 - 12:06pm

Analysts: Why do I hear "S.T.A.Y." in the background?

Be excellent to each other, and party on, dudes.
Controversial
Jun 1, 2021 - 3:38am

I've been in a few industries - all of which this behavior is 100% fine. 

I would encourage you to reframe your position. You are asking someone to adjust their behavior to your preference. This isn't about you.

They are sending an email because it crossed their mind + they are available to take it off their plate and move it forward. It'll be in your inbox when you are ready to move it forward. Why are you so offended that they left you a note that you can read later? I expect if you were to have the conversation, you would quickly find they don't expect you to be up at 1am to receive this message they just wanted to get it off their plate and move it forward.

Just had my trade dispute rejected by Schwab for a loss of 35k. This single issue alone should be a gigantic red flag to anyone who trades on their platform.

If they have a system error, and you do not video record your trading (they actually said this), they will not honour their fuck up. Switching everything away from them. Fuck this company.

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  • 36
Jun 1, 2021 - 3:45am

We don't have the full picture, but I'm sure just more communication from the senior team could help. "I'm just getting this off my plate and ready for tomorrow, please don't actually start on this right now." 

"Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

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  • Associate 3 in IB-M&A
Jun 1, 2021 - 11:40am

I think you hit the nail on the head here. One of the biggest issues I have found with junior staff is their unwillingness to ask a follow up question around deliverable timelines and they just assume everything is due immediately. Could the individual sending out the email have said "tomorrow could you start on..." or something to that effect, sure, but it also doesn't sound like it said "I need this in the morning" either. My MD will send me late night emails all the time but he'll typically add "in the morning could you.." and I try to do the same for those I assign work to but nobody is perfect and sometimes expressing timelines is an afterthought.

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Ind
Jun 1, 2021 - 8:23pm

I think you hit the nail on the head here. One of the biggest issues I have found with junior staff is their unwillingness to ask a follow up question around deliverable timelines and they just assume everything is due immediately. Could the individual sending out the email have said "tomorrow could you start on..." or something to that effect, sure, but it also doesn't sound like it said "I need this in the morning" either. My MD will send me late night emails all the time but he'll typically add "in the morning could you.." and I try to do the same for those I assign work to but nobody is perfect and sometimes expressing timelines is an afterthought.

this is why this is BAD leadership.

BRB its the JUNIOR's job to have to reply and CLARIFY what they timeline is

Or....I know this is pretty ground breaking to some...the senior banker could give CLEAR and understandable guidance on deadlines/tasks/and deliverables (and with foresight rather than randomly at 1AM) since he is LEADING the process and the junior team. If the 22 year old ANALYST has to fish it out of him, then frankly that's a poor leader and communicator.

Jun 1, 2021 - 1:33pm

PWM Hopeful

. Why are you so offended that they left you a note that you can read later? I expect if you were to have the conversation, you would quickly find they don't expect you to be up at 1am to receive this message they just wanted to get it off their plate and move it forward.

Was just talking to someone on my team about this. She mentioned hating scenarios where you wake up in the middle of the night and check your phone. You see the message which is a long list of a million tasks for tomorrow and then you start stressing about it and can't get back to sleep for a couple of hours.

So even if the e-mail is clear that this is for tomorrow, still kind of annoying.

Jun 1, 2021 - 2:12pm

I can understand the cause and effect and how that might create annoyance. Would a reasonable solution for your colleague simply be to not look at work messages in the middle of the night if she knows it will annoy her? 

Regardless of the MS above - I see this as a self-inflicted problem. People tend to want others to adjust their behaviors instead of adjusting their own behaviors first (keep it in draft vs. not checking work email). 

Just had my trade dispute rejected by Schwab for a loss of 35k. This single issue alone should be a gigantic red flag to anyone who trades on their platform.

If they have a system error, and you do not video record your trading (they actually said this), they will not honour their fuck up. Switching everything away from them. Fuck this company.

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Jun 1, 2021 - 2:54pm

PWM Hopeful

I've been in a few industries - all of which this behavior is 100% fine. 

I would encourage you to reframe your position. You are asking someone to adjust their behavior to your preference. This isn't about you.

They are sending an email because it crossed their mind + they are available to take it off their plate and move it forward. It'll be in your inbox when you are ready to move it forward. Why are you so offended that they left you a note that you can read later? I expect if you were to have the conversation, you would quickly find they don't expect you to be up at 1am to receive this message they just wanted to get it off their plate and move it forward.

It's probably more of a job security thing in a competitive environment. Ie, you can easily lose a seat/promo if someone else is perceived to be working harder by being up at 1am to respond to emails and produce deliverables by early am.

Most Helpful
  • Analyst 1 in IB - Ind
Jun 1, 2021 - 11:50am

Have been in this situation a few times with a few MDs that take a few hours off in the evening then get around to comments around 12/1am. Often times they'll specify "In the morning can you..." and if they don't (as Aso3 said, timeline can be an afterthought sometimes), I'll just reply "Thanks, We'll work through this and get you a draft late morning/early afternoon. Let us know of any issues with this timeline" and that let's them know you have no intention on working on it that night but also gives them the chance to tell you it's urgent. I'm just a stupid first year but have learned over communication is critical to maintaining some semblance of a life during WFH.

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Ind
Jun 1, 2021 - 8:26pm

I wish MDs and Directors had this mentality and understanding of the importance of communication

 not these open ended "tasks" emails at 1am with no deadline associated with them, that analysts have to follow up on for clarity......

Jun 2, 2021 - 11:29am

I'm defense of OP, I've been in this position before and followed up to clarify the timeline, only to be told something vague and noncommittal that clearly implies that this is some kind of test. Of course, I am happy to be mid bucket if it means refusing to play that game. But still I think the fact that you need to stay up late in anticipation of getting an email at 1am on MDW is complete BS.

Jun 1, 2021 - 2:16pm

Did you ask for clarification as to timing?

I fire off emails at random hours of the night to clear my plate / not forget something that just occurred to me.I typically provide guidance on timing but if your senior is not doing that, just ask (or don't respond until later in the AM given the hour it was sent)

Jun 1, 2021 - 5:32pm

I do this with my deal teams but am absolutely clear on deadline. I don't expect a response, it's more a "put this on you to do list".  I don't like doing it, used to hate it when I was an analyst / associate. The reality is that my day is jam packed with calls, clients and a million other things and the only time I have to read or think is at night after everything dies down.

  • Analyst 2 in IB - Ind
Jun 1, 2021 - 8:19pm

this isn't good leadership.  if the only time you have to "manage" your deal team is at 1am over email, then frankly you are either not delegating enough, too busy, or too involved in the day to processes.

  • Analyst 3+ in IB - Ind
Jun 1, 2021 - 9:55pm

Most of the times it is just that vp trying to show the MD that he is working on holidays. Fucking BS. When I get these emails unless there is a fire drill I don't respond until the next business day. It is insensitive but not unusual. I get assigned work on my PTO and my staffer is like we will talk when you're back staffing you on this - like it couldn't wait until next week? Def not best culture

Jun 2, 2021 - 9:50am

I find this humorous.  NOT because the IB analysts get worked to death with unreasonable requests and are on call 24 hours/day.  They do and I really feel for them.

I find this humorous because once I put down my Wall Street Blackberry for good, I never expected anyone to respond to my (insomniac induced) emails.  I had a thought and wanted to capture it, read a story and wanted to share, etc.  When I received actual responses, I told the team, in no uncertain terms, to turn off messaging alerts at night.  Nothing gets done that cant wait until the next day.  Folks who send /sent me emails on weekend / holidays / vacation got spoken to about having a life.  Emergencies get a phone call. It had better be an emergency (it always was).  If you think that calling me during my kids softball game is important enough, it better be.

No suck up time, no trying to impress, none of it.  It has simplified life and improved productivity, especially during WFH.  I tell clients projects will take double the time @75% of the normal rate with an early completion bonus.  We always finish way earlier.

Other than banking (which is tough.  See Apollo), managing clients expectations is the most important thing a boss can do.

Namaste.

D.O.U.G.

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Jun 2, 2021 - 11:33am

You sound like a great manager. Playing games like testing who responds to non-urgent late night emails is toxic and shouldn't count for shit in the boss's eyes. 

Jun 7, 2021 - 8:39pm

Ha!  You wouldnt want to. I dont pay enough!

However, i will let you in on a little secret.  There are more of us out there if you look in the "wrong places".  Many of us look at WLB (American style) and just laugh our asses off.  

Look.  I have pulled many all nighters for the companies I own. Yet, I will never respond to an email after 8pm (kids time) or before 6am (my time). Phone call?  Yes.  Some flotsam in my inbox labelled urgent?  Not a chance. Anyone, including my longtime banking friends, who respond "Pls fix. Thx" get a loud 7am "F**k You" phone call from me.

Again, banking is a completely different beast with its own traditions and rituals and I feel for the analysts who have to do it.

Namaste.

D.O.U.G.

  • Associate 2 in IB - Gen
Jun 2, 2021 - 10:39am

It shouldn't come as surprise that bankers are some of the worst leaders - they are dealing with (typically) highly competent / motivated individuals and in small teams. You should try to figure out how to deal with them in such situations.

Jun 2, 2021 - 11:00am

Bro your boss has a job to do and he was trying to not fuck your weekend up by staffing you on a bunch of shit to do over the weekend. He wanted you to come back fresh and gear up on Monday morning so he sent you some shit to get cranking on overnight so you could get going first thing come the end of the long weekend. You're spoiled if anything, he could have just staffed you on it Saturday morning and told you to shovel shit all weekend. 

Jun 3, 2021 - 8:14pm

Banker Talk

"Can you add more colour to do"

"Can you take a spin through"

"Take a first stab"

"Take the lead"

"Helpful"

"This will be helpful"

"No rush on this"

"No rush on this"

"Can you send a dial-in"

"Going to need all hands on deck"

"Can you scrub this file real quick"

"Are you available to take notes on this call"

"What's your availability"

"Can you leverage that"

"Pls fix, thx"

"Can discuss if helpful"

"Around to discuss"

"Early next week"

"Tomorrow morning is fine"

"Early next week is fine"

"No need to lose sleep on this one"

  • Analyst 2 in Consulting
Jun 2, 2021 - 2:37pm

Perhaps you would prefer receiving said email Saturday morning (Friday night) at 12:02 a.m. with a project deadline of beginning of business day Tuesday which is what my MDW consisted of

Jun 3, 2021 - 7:00am

Shahanshah Narseh: the Romans are attacking our camp at 2 am? Unacceptable! Why not do it in the morning like normal human beings? I just wanted a top end career with all the benefits of it and no stress. I totally deserve that. Where's my harem with 300+ wives anyway? I'm convinced Galerius is one of the worst generals in Roman history. 

Galerius: lmao, I was selling cabbages to you this morning to raid your camp in the night. 

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.

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