Is this back office?
A friend of mine was offered a "hybrid" role, which combines trading assistant duties (trade execution) with operations analyst duties (trade reconciliation). Also, he would be programming to help out with trade automation and back testing of various trade strategies. Position is on the trading desk.
i would say its more of a bo/mo role.. but nevertheless you can still network and between pure ops role and this role, im pretty sure this position will give u a a higher chance of moving to SnT positions
Who do you report to in this role? IT, somebody in ops, or the head of the desk? Will you be paid out of a trading P&L or out of an IT or Ops budget after your first year or two?
People will always say that if you have to do programming or ops work, you are back-office. Those people usually aren't in situations where they can make broad generalizations throughout the rest of the firm. When one of my friends was a TA, the first thing he built was an Excel plug-in to fetch stuff from a database. He's now grown into a role as a trader with his own book.
The problem with doing anything hybrid is that you have to rely on your managers (or your own political skills) to stay a hybrid rather than just a guy in ops or IT who works with the traders. I was in analytics a few years ago, but there was a political battle between a relatively quiet chief of analytics and an extremely political CIO, and the CIO won. We were all moved into IT. (The story has a happy ending with the CIO getting fired and a lot of us moving into trading and research, but that's another tale).
There's a lot of powerful people in the firm; the head of ops, the CIO, etc, who will want you in their group- probably because you know what the heck you're doing and their teams don't. You need a manager who can battle the head of ops or IT and win.
It's a small shop, less than 10 people, and he would be reporting to the PM.
Should I tell him to ask if he would be able to have his own book 3-4 years down the line?
Trade support folks tend to have more opportunities at smaller shops.
If he likes the people, they seem to know what the heck they're talking about, the pay is good, and he doesn't have an offer from GS for trading or something like that, I'd tell him to take the position.
I wouldn't put a time frame on it. At some of the smaller firms, you get your own book after less than a year. That said, it would be a good question to ask.
do not ask that question in that way in an interview. Reason being that nobody hires a TA with the idea of giving them a book, and nobody wants to hire one who is already thinking about that. I personally started as a trading assistant and i am now a PM at a hedge fund but i wasnt hired with that intent and neither will your friend. He needs to convey to his potential employers that he will grind it out in this job and help the company. Even if they ask him what he wants to do five years down the line he should downplay running his own book and make sure they know he is serious about the job he is applying for. He isnt applying for a training program he is applying for a job.
That said, I think TA is the best job to start in to eventually run money...much better then investment banking. He is going to know more about markets and trading in 3 months then a banker will 5 years from now as they are finishing up MBA's.
%**# that. Traders respect a killer instinct as much as they respect people grinding out their work. They've already offered the guy the position (and probably told several other people they aren't getting it); the OP's friend has all the bargaining power now. The question should be tactful and respect the fact that his getting his own book depends on him paying his dues and performing at a certain level, but it's a great question to ask, IMHO, if you can ask it well.
One thing I've learned over the past three years is that if you want to get to the trading floor or if you want to be a trader, you can't beat around the bush and ONLY focus on doing a good job and cross your fingers that things will work out. If you're doing better than everyone else, you've gotta go in for the kill. An even better situation would be if your friend had another competitive offer.
This is coming from a guy who spent more time than he had to in IT because he thought he could just grind it out and people would take notice. People do take notice when you grind things out and do a good job- they give you more work to do, take that for granted, and then walk all over you some more. It's fine to put up with that for a while- especially if it's for your first year or so, but at some point, when you're doing a good job and you're difficult to replace, you've got to talk about trading responsibilities and/or getting your own book. Whenever you ask anything of management (from pencils to a promotion), it's always a "total surprise" unless you've brought it up before; if you at least discussed it ahead of time, it will be harder for them to make the conversation awkward.
If you don't do it now, at least discuss it in your year-end performance review and/or bonus discussion, assuming you're doing a good job of meeting your responsibilities. Frankly, if he wants to be a trader, I think it will be easier in the long run if he discusses it now.
That is weird...it's the best job to start in to eventually run money but you don't want to convey that in the interview?
Bondarb if that is true, as a PM, how do you select TA's?
Its not weird, senior guys want to hire someone to do the TA/Ops stuff so they can concentrate on markets. if/when you get the role its your job to be a sponge, learn everything you can so you can ask intelligent questions and speak coherently about the markets. than maybe you get a shot.... the last thing they want to hear when they are hiring you for the most jr role on the desk is when am I am going to run money. the most important thing would be to know if this role can grow into a jr trader or if they envision the spot being always being a TA/Ops job
exactly. You can try to feel out how much mobility the job will have at the interview but i'd hesitate to ask questions that indicate you are looking past the current job for which you are interviewing. This isnt a training program, you are being hired to do a specific job that is very important to the trader and you need to convey that you understand and are willing to do this job. Once you are there you need to a) do that job extremely well b) learn everything you can about the business.
Keep in ind that i didnt say the easiest path to being a trader was being a TA, I just said that I think its the best way to start from a learning/knowledge perspective.
i agree bondarb.. they want to hire someone who wants to contribute to the team and make things more efficient and effective.. they wouldnt want to hire someone who wants to use them as a stepping stone..
IMHO, it's a legitimate question after you've got the offer- especially if you're comparing two offers. Questions about compensation and potential responsibilities are perfectly fair game AFTER an offer is extended. Things would obviously be a little different in research or banking, but a lot of traders like seeing a little ambition and hints of a competitive attitude.
yup i agree with IlliniProgrammer, but like what you said, if he knows how to ask tactfully, it will of course be a win-win for him, but of course things might go the other way..
and yup you do have to voice out ur goals/ambitions to get noticed
there is a time and a place to "go in for the kill". In my opinion that time is not before your first day on the job. And I have already gone from a TA role to running money at a hedge fund, which aint easy, so i consider my opinion informed on this matter. But if he wants to ask, let him ask.
Optio earum doloribus aliquid exercitationem placeat nihil quis. Fugit non unde fuga nemo. Id aliquid magni veritatis nesciunt cupiditate dolorem. Voluptate soluta iste quas aut qui ipsa maiores. Quis est debitis velit provident.
Earum consequatur autem voluptatibus molestias est. Assumenda necessitatibus nisi vitae. Modi libero consequuntur architecto dolores fugit quidem molestiae. Atque in reprehenderit eveniet voluptatem natus eveniet. Et ipsum eius ipsum laudantium nihil. Id sit dolorem qui reprehenderit.
Suscipit sunt mollitia voluptatibus. Quia fugiat est corporis accusantium vel aut. Rerum explicabo accusamus repellat recusandae. Laboriosam error est sapiente cupiditate.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...