Ultimate Guide for IB outside of New York / California
Growing up in New York, I was never big fan of the city, however I always wanted to pursue a career in IB. After trying to look everywhere on Wall Street Oasis and not finding too much information regarding IB in Atlanta, Charlotte, Chicago and Houston. I made this guide with the intent of helping others in my shoes. Below is a list of banks in each city that I gather and ranked base on exit opp. Open to suggestion and advice.
Atlanta
T1
Barclays, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan
T2
SunTrust, Houlihan Lokey
T3
Raymond James, KBW, Sander O’ Neil, Stephens
Charlotte
T1
Bank of America Securities (Lev Fin), Wells Fargo, Lazard
T2
Jefferies, William Blair, Piper Jaffray
T3
Raymond James, SunTrust, Stephens
T4
Fifth Third, Regions
Chicago
T1
Citi, Greenhill, Moelis & Co., Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan
T2
Lazard, Perella Weinberg Partners, Rothschild, Credit Suisse, Barclays, William Blair, Evercore, Baird
T3
Bank of America Securities, Jefferies, Houlihan Lokey, UBS, Piper Jaffray
T4
BMO, Cowen, Cain Brothers & Co., Mizuho, Lincoln International
T5
Stephens, Stifel, Raymond James
Houston
T1
Evercore, Jefferies, Tudor, Pickering, Holt & Co., Citi
T2
Bank of America Securities, Credit Suisse, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan, Barclays, Petrie Partners, Piper Jaffray Simmons Energy, Goldman Sachs, Moelis & Co.
T3
RBC Richardson Barr, Wells Fargo, BMO, Intrepid
T4
Houlihan Lokey, UBS, Lazard, Greenhill, Guggenheim
T5
SunTrust, PJ Solomon, Stephens, Raymond James, KeyBanc
Toronto
T1
Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America Securities, Barclays, RBC
T2
Credit Suisse, BMO, TD, CIBC, Evercore, Greenhill, Lazard
T3
Canaccord, Scotia, National Bank, Raymond James, Citi, UBS
Absolutely ass backwards that you have Jefferies and TPH in Tier 3 in Houston
Jefferies and TPH dominates in Houston, I agree.
OP I think your Chicago rankings are outdated as well. Citi is one of the top BBs in Chicago and PWP is a brand new office (just to point out a few)
Agreed - also think that William Blair should be higher than Tier 3 in Chicago
Tier 1 Houston - EnergyNet Inc.
Also - Citi and Barclays are definitely Tier 1. Greenhill is practically nonexistent on the energy deal scene, no idea why you placed them in your first tier. Moelis opened their office in Houston like two years ago and, although they appear to be growing, they're no where near the top of the boutique mountain (1A - JEFF/EVR 1B - TPH/Simmons) in Houston. Intrepid should be in there somewhere just on Skip McGee's presence alone.
No offense, but the entire Houston rankings you posted are completely out of whack.
Sorry, I was going off information that I found on WSO, will update.
There was a Houston thread recently:
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/houston-investment-banking-2019
I saw, however I ranked my list on exit opps over deal flow and prestige. For example, if I ranked deal flow in Atlanta, then SunTrust is probably number one.
Exit opps are determined by your experience. Regional coverage groups are not giving you the same exit ops as the industry and product groups. They tend to focus on middle market deals while the marquee groups go for the traditionally sized BB transactions.
Not much activity from any of the tier one ATL shops, all small teams doing minimal m&a. Suntrust is HQ'd in ATL, and has almost all of its top talented based in Atlanta. This leads to bigger deals and better exit opps. JPM's Atlanta office is CCB, not IBD. Barclays I am admittedly unsure on. RayJ will be more competitive in Atlanta as well due to multiple coverage groups and product groups having teams there. Stephens is also well-positioned in Atlanta. Houlihan Lokey only has business services coverage to my knowledge, but a lot of its TAS is there as well.
Barclays Citi, Jefferies, Petrie and Intrepid should all be top tier in Houston along with MS, EVR and TPH. These Tier 1 firms are truly the heavy hitters in Houston either through sheer A&D volume or complexity of transactions.
Add UBS (bullish after their influx of senior bankers), Richardson Barr and Simmons (Tier 1b?) in tier 2, and I would drop Greenhill and Moelis there as well both of whom have had not the best deal flow.
Guggenheim, RBC and BMO should converge to T3, and add TD, Scotiabank and CIBC. Tier 4 would be Suntrust, RayJ, HLHZ, and maybe some of the Euro financing offices, but its splitting hairs.
Blair should be tier 1, at minimum tier 1b in Chicago, arguably some of the best placements each year. Baird is also underrated in Chicago.
I get the point is exit ops, but in regional areas, the firms that do the most deals and have the most prestige regionally will have the best exit ops in their area. If you're going to post something like this take the time to see who really places well.
Just delete your Houston rankings because they are not anywhere near accurate
Ironic, given that you have Greenhill, GS, and Moelis in Tier 1 for Houston.
Boston? Sea-Tac, Miami?
If you have a list for Boston, I will love to list it.
Seattle anyone?
Bumping Boston. I know some large and small boutiques have offices there but would want to know more.
I think people is thinking about deal flows versus exit opps. For example, Allen & Co. has strong deal flows here and there, but they are absolutely garbage when it comes to exit opps. At least that's what I was told. There is no doubt that a Moelis in Houston doesn't get the same type of deal flow and etc. But, you will definitely have exit opps just given the name brand. I have always heard that Petrie Partners is a strong firm but, I seriously question about their exit opps outside of Houston. I can be completely wrong about this, so someone please educate me.
Got a buddy that does NR PE in NYC and came from Petrie in Houston.
Did you pull these rankings out of your ass?
Harris Williams and Lincoln don't even have offices in Houston.
Mistake from copy and paste. Are you sure about Harris Williams?
Allen & Co. also hires people as career bankers and recruiting is career poison there. Would you not take Allen & Co over a place like Rothschild-solid opps? That's why its a stupid argument to to make.
Jefferies Houston gets crushed with hours, but the exit opps are top notch. The Energy funds are not going to take a Moelis kid vs a Jefferies guy because Jefferies just has that much flow.
Lets go to Atlanta now, why would roark hire someone with significantly less deals than lets say STRH M&A. How many deals can you name out of GS ATL
Just because you can't name them, doesn't mean that it's not there. I'm not arguing that energy funds aren't going to take people from Jefferies over a Moelis. I'm pretty sure both kid from Jefferies and Moelis will get the interview and it's up to the individual from that point. If you look outside of energy fund / Houston area, I think Moelis exit opp > Jefferies. I'm also pretty sure that some Moelis analyst are placed at bigger deals than some Jefferies analyst. Just like people are arguing that Blair and Baird should be placed higher in Chicago. I'm not debating that they are very strong groups in Chicago. However, I'm also looking at possible exit opps outside of Chicago.
Energy is specialized though, so more likely than not you move down market leaving houston.
Think of it this way, you can go to amherst or brown. Both are great schools, were not debating that. When you apply for a job, it doesnt matter that not as many people have heard of amherst, the people who who matter will know. (JEF=Amherst here)
So whether youre doing ABL at WF or JPMCCB in chicago, someone from tech/bus services/industrials is going to know WB is a better option.
No way in hell Blair is T3 for chicago. They have a very strong middle market presence in that city, and chicago is like their home turf.
Edit* saw they were bumped to Tier 2. Better....
Cain Brothers also doesn't have offices in Houston nor Chicago
What qualifies you to make such a wide ranging and definitive ranking?
I'm in no way qualified. This post was made with the intention of being updated by more information. Unfortunately, people come on to this forum with the mindset of having a dick contest. I created the post because, I couldn't find good information on regional IB recruiting. I also believe that this is good information for others who are also in my shoes.
For the record I didn't MS you and my question was asked in good faith.
I think the spirit behind the post was good, but in execution you could have fostered a better discussion by making your post more open-ended such as asking how the Tiers shake out among banks in different cities, or how to think about prestige and rankings at banks, or what the difference is between deal flow and recruiting strength at regional offices, etc.
There are plenty of these types of posts that are much more accurate than yours. I don’t know how you can say that you haven’t found good information on regional banks, use the search function.
This is not helpful if you don’t know what you are talking about (and I can tell from your ridiculous Houston ranking that you do not).
I never understand why the fuck people make threads like these. They always end up being wildly inaccurate. For example, if you had checked out the Chicago IB page currently on the front page (https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/top-chicago-ib), you'd know that MS no longer staffs juniors there, and therefore can't be classified as Tier 1. Piper Chicago is also nowhere in the same ballpark as Baird or Blair. Smh.
I'm just taking peoples feedback and hopefully come up with a list that is close to accurate. Happy to hear people's reasoning behind how they perceive exit opps at each firm. These ranking is just something that I put together after looking through numerous post from the past.
Does Lazard have a flagship location in Chicago, or is it only Lazard MM?
Lazard Freres also has a Chicago office, I know people who are there
Ok so I think to sum up everyone above:
DELETE by editing your post the rankings you have and begin compiling them again based on the feedback you received. THEN maybe post a new thread after you have actually compiled recent posts (but probably just don't post because it does not seem like you know the rankings well). Not trying to be an a-hole, just trying to save you from continued MS being thrown
That's cute. I didn't compile anything so far. I care less about MS thrown at me, and more about if this post will be helpful to people in the future.
That’s cute. This post is totally useless and 50 other ones have already been created regarding rankings in tier 2 cities. This is not helping anyone
Good Stuff, Thank you! Would you say these places rank similarly for those who have ER shops?
I have no idea. But, I always think that most BB/EB ER are concentrated in New York only. If you're looking outside of New York, the only ER you can find are the regional MM.
Thank you kind sir, i'll keep that in mind
For Charlotte, I'd add blackarch and citizens bank has a growing Lev fin practice. I know lazard middle market is there but don't think lazard lazard has an office.
I didn't list all of the firms because I only looked into the firms that was worth lateraling to from my current role.
You listed regions and fifth third. I'd argue both shops are equal to if not better than those two. (Assuming by regions u mean corporate and leveraged finance or one ofthe industry coverage groups since regions bank actually owns blackarch) Also if you're still in commercial banking as indicated by your profile, both would be worthwhile lateral opportunities.
Rankings for Toronto IB (based on exit opportunities, prestige and deal flow):
Tier 1: GS, MS, BAML, Barclays, RBC
Tier 2: CS, BMO, TD, CIBC, Evercore, Greenhill, Lazard
Tier 3: Canaccord, Scotia, National Bank, Raymond James, Citi, UBS
This is very inaccurate, Scotia should be in T1
My son works at Scotia and he says he gets fked everyday
Thanks, I will list them.
..
MS in same boat as GS re: being a correspondent office. BAML in Canada has also seen better days M&A wise but lending book still drives some cross border activity.
GS deal flow is very weak, but their analysts still get great looks given the GS name. Have sent kids to Carlyle, TPG, Blackstone, Advent in recent years
Agree that Evercore is small and haven't really done much. Have heard the head of the office is basically retired. They do pay amazingly however
Greenhill has a good team in toronto. bunch of ex-GS guys and have worked on some pretty notable deals recently
Lazard toronto is not a strong office. The boutique they acquired was very weak and the lazard team hasnt done anything in canada of note. They appear to be overstaffed relative to deal flow
RBC and TD are neck and neck for top spot of the big 5. TD led M&A deal flow in 2018 behind GS, would consider putting them in tier 1. Just my 2 cents.
TD only have IB function in Canada right? Non in United States?
scotia edged GS for #1 spot in M&A deal value for 2018 according to WSJ?
This list is questionable. I thought the purpose of this thread was exit opps? None of the cdn banks are even close to the BBs/EBs when it comes to exit opps.
Move RBC down to tier 2 (analysts there dont have the same range of exit opps as the BBs because US headhunters dont value RBC at all). Move CS up to tier 1 - they have sent analysts to Onex and Silver Lake Kraftwerk in recent memory. Evercore sent one to Oaktree LA and Greenhill sent one to Point 72. Lazard is new, but the boutique they acquired was questionable with no deal flow and those guys are running point at LAZ. They did send a kid to Altas partners, but he was trained at BMO m&a
Move TD and CIBC down to tier 3 - exit opps aren't great there. CIBC did send a kid to Onex NY a few years ago
Strong anti-LAZ bias here, especially if you’re taking a ‘brand name = all’ approach. See my earlier reply.
I’m pretty sure the ONEX guy from CIBC effectively already had the job before he was required to spend some time at CIBC.
My view on Houston Energy Banking rankings (+ Dallas/Denver Energy IB offices associated with the respective firms below), primarily based on deal flow/quality per analyst (by crude estimation using knowledge of recent class sizes, no pun intended)
1: Evercore, Jefferies, TPH, Citi 2: CS, MS, JPM, Barclays, Petrie, Intrepid, Simmons 3. GS (non-NYC), BAML, Moelis, RBC Richardson Barr, WF, BMO 4. HL, UBS, Lazard, Greenhill, RBC Capital Markets, Scotia, Guggenheim 5. SunTrust, Stephens, Raymond James, Parkman Whaling, Keybanc, TD, PJ Solomon, Cantor
Hard to swallow the fact that BAML, Lazard, Greenhill is ranked under WF / BMO / Petrie / RBC in exit opps. Not considering deal flow and energy P/E recruiting only.
Greenhill is basically non-existent. I also haven't seen a notable placement out of Lazard Houston in the last couple years (since 2015?). BAML has had solid placements to generalist funds outside of Texas and after giving it further thought, I'm going to bump BAML up to group 3 given their midstream deal activity over the last few years. Petrie/BMO have both sent analysts to notable energy PE funds (even some MFs). WF has also had some good placements at Texas energy PE shops over the last few years.
Rankings above based on exits would likely be pretty similar. Would move CS up to group 1, Moelis/GS up to group 2 with BAML/WF/BMO as "3a". Could argue that it is too early to tell with Intrepid (as well as that there would be some noise involved as they are split between HOU/NYC)... personally, I would leave them in bucket 2 given the reputation of leadership at the firm, as well as the complex transactions that I've seen them on (especially with top sponsors involved). I'd predict that they will start placing very well once more analysts presumably move on.
Chicago has some massive issues. I'll go down tier by tier. Very low effort post.
T1: MS moved almost all bankers in Chi to NYC. Evercore is almost brand new, maybe T2. T2: BAML Chi is a satellite T3 at best, JPM should be T1, since when does Guggenheim have a CHI IBD? T3: WB should be T2, Jeff has less than 10 IBD in Chicago move down, since when does WF have IBD in Chicago?, RBC also no IBD in Chicago, UBS closed their Chicago IBD years ago T4: BMO CM is better than Lincoln and Piper - move it T3. Everything else in these T4/T5 tier is small/irrelevant/or does not exist.
UBS Chicago still exists for IBD but agree with the rest of your comments
Updated. SageKelly UBS Chicago still exist.
H-Town
There's no Cantor or Guggenheim in Houston. I made it very clear that this is not a deal size ranking. I'm pretty sure Greenhill will place better than a BMO / UBS just cause of brand name.
Again, don’t definitively post about things you don’t know. There is absolutely a Guggenheim office in Houston.
https://guggenheim.wd1.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/External_Careers_Site/jo…
lol at SunTrust ranking
Piper Jaffray bought simmons, no stephens in houston.
Better to split into products or verticals given that Houston is Energy focused. For example: upstream, midstream, OFS rankings or equity and debt teams
Nephew......
Blackstone bought Tallgrass for $3.3B, so, no, the $400M deal your office worked on isn't the largest energy deal of 2019. I also question the credibility of your rankings since you have Pipar and Simmons in different tiers (they're the same thing - there's not a separate Pipar office and Simmons office).
**Only including U.S. based, upstream-focused deals specific to the Central Basin Platform. (Don't hate me cause you aint me)
Guggenheim is in downtown Houston (office opened up ~3 years ago). Cantor is in the Galleria area (although not sure if they run advisory out of that office, might just be DCM).
Big shoutout to the person MS'ing everyone for no real reason.
This thread is just an absolute dumpster fire.
Started with the OP - who feels educated enough to post something like even though: 1- he doesn't work in M&A / S&T (asset based lending) 2- literally started his position in January. 28 days ago....
The rest of the comments are just one big circle jerk of outdated / biased information. Even by WSO standards, this thread is worse than most.
Well, I guess it provides at least some idea to fresh graduate who's looking for IB outside of major cities. Why so angry bro? If you have the information, why not share it? Rather than going off at everyone...
People in their respective cities could genuinely contribute by talking about the banking presence in their location. Seems like a lot of people are just guessing at things and making assumptions.
Bring out the ruler boys, it’s time for the annual dick measuring contest.
Enron is definitely T1 in Houston
Charlotte - WFS is going through some serious rounds of layoffs and goose egg bonuses. Coupled with some structure reorganization between IB and corporate banking, it is a bit of a shit show over there. Lazard presence is their MM shop, but they talk about working across MM and LF on a pretty regular basis. BAML LevFin team is apparently very small, can’t confirm if they are still in town or not. Best bets are going to be Blair, PJ, and Jefferies. Keep an eye out for SunTrust and BB&T to expand IB in Charlotte with their recent merger.
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