Hello Guys!
Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I have a little problem here!
I feel fortunate to have been accepted at four Business Schools for the full-time MBA program. Let me share with you my background, I am an engineer from Latin America looking to make a transition from IT Consulting to Management Consulting (hopefully MBB in Latin America or Spain). I want to work in strategy projects.
I have been accepted at Wharton-Lauder (starts in early may), MIT Sloan, Yale (with almost half tuition scholarship) and Duke (with a little scholarship). Also, I have been put in Chicago Booth waitlist... I dont know why because I think there is a lot of cross-admit from Wharton and Chicago :(
So far I really like the professional opportunities of Wharton-Lauder (Portuguese track) and the "fit" of MIT Sloan. From talking to current students and alumni I feel more comfortable speaking with Sloanies :) ... I dont know why, maybe because we are engineers?
I think Booth is the middle point: great location, similar opportunites to Wharton and similar "fit" of Sloan.... I really want to wait for the waitlist decision but by the time they release the decision with Round 2 (March 27) I will already have the Visa, paperwork, even a roommate if I choose Wharton Lauder (starts in the first week of May).
Please could you share some light about the difference of MBB recruitment in Wharton-Lauder vs MIT? Is there a big gap between those 2 top schools? I tried looking at employment reports but they are not detailed enough.
Do you think I should wait for the waitlist response from Booth?
Another point to consider is financial aid, do you know if I can get a scholarship/fellowship from Booth if accepted from the waitlist? Or can I negotiate it?.
Wharton covers 80% of student budget (international student loan) but since I will be in the Lauder program I have to bring like 50k from my pocket (I will have only like 30k by the time school starts), I dont want to have my MBA experience limited due to money. MIT Sloan covers almost 100%.
Also, I am really interested in the LGBT life during the 2 years of the MBA. Maybe a LGBT WSO member can share with me his/her experience in those schools? I know Wharton has a big LGBT club but they are too party-oriented I think (I dont drink alcoholic beverages, I dont dance either!).
I will try to visit Wharton for the admit weekend, unfortunately MIT holds its admit weekend in April but will visit campus and attend a class anyways.
PS: I may have a second short-term goal to break into the Videogames industry for a Management/Marketing position (only if MBB doesnt work out for me).
Thanks a lot again for your support!
Best Regards,
Latam Consultant
Wharton-Lauder looks like the best program from your list and will provide you with more chances for MBB imho.
Congrats! Great situation that you've found yourself in. Personally, I think the Wharton-Lauder program is leaps and bounds ahead of MIT at a high level. If money weren't an issue, you should definitely attend Lauder over Sloan. Sloan is a great program, but is known for its tough social atmosphere relative to the other schools. Maybe this won't be a problem for you -- but don't be afraid to go a little bit out of your comfort zone here, it is business school after all. From a professional standpoint, you'll do fine looking to join the ranks of the MBB consultants out of both schools, with an edge to Wharton. If you're confident you could secure a job from either school, other aspects of the schools should be more important to you. Note I don't have any allegiance to either school, I'm at Booth.
Also, for what it's worth, McKinsey requires EU work authorization to join its Madrid office. They aren't as highly supportive of interoffice transfers (BCG is), so if you don't have work authorization in Europe you should cross Spain off your list.
Can you expand on this? I've heard of cases where people were transferred to London for a year due to Visa issues before being brought back to the US. Applicable only to MBB / Bulge bracket banks though.
McKinsey hosted a private dinner for Chicago-based students interested in working in EMEA. A number of the Latin Americans interested in working in Spain attended. The recruiter flat out said that they don't sponsor VISAs in Madrid because of an issue that occurred a few years ago where a person had to wait almost two years to get their Visa.
Hello CompBanker,
Thanks for taking the time to read my post and for your reply.
Please could you elaborate a little bit more why do you think Wharton-Lauder is leaps and bounds ahead of MIT? I am curious beacuse when I talked to current students or alumni from other top schools about my decision process the first question they ask me is "What is Lauder, is it important?".
Also, your comment about the "fit" is spot on (I think that is the correct phrase? I am not an English native speaker). When I contacted Wharton students and alumni they were really eager to help me but when I had the meeting or phone call with them... I dont know but we just didnt "click", they felt so distant that the conversation didnt flow and probably they left wondering how the hell was I admitted to Wharton!
In the other hand is MIT Sloan, when I contacted the current students or alumni they were eager to help me too and when I had the meeting with them it was great! I felt so comfortable talking with the students and alumni, they were so down-to-earth that it seemed like I knew these guys for many years when I just met them 30 min ago.
However, I know that I need to improve my social skills and go beyond my comfort zone (I am a gay geek, I dont dance, go to parties or drink alcoholic beverages). Probably if I am recruiting for MBB and get a job there I will have to interact with clients who are not like me but more like the stereotypical Whartonite hahaha.
I dont know what to choose :( ... In my mind, MIT Sloan gives me what I want but Wharton-Lauder gives me what I need.
Thanks in advance for your help!
PS: Thanks for the info about Spain, I will cross it off my list and just focus in South America & Mexico. By the way do you know if McKinsey recruits for its Business Technology Practice post-MBA? I dont want to work in IT anymore and I would not want to be considered for that Practice due to my background.
Best Regards,
Latam Consultant
Hello Compbanker,
Thanks for your reply. Please could you elaborate a little bit more why you think Wharton-Lauder is leaps and bounds ahead of MIT?
Also, please could you tell me your opinion about Wharton-Lauder vs Chicago Booth (I am not in that scenario but I am super curious about your comment).
I have to take a final decision very soon :(
Thanks for your help!
Latam
I'm sure you already know a lot about Lauder given you were accepted into the program. But to emphasize a couple things:
1 - The program is far more intense than the regular MBA. Past Lauder students report that they put a lot of extra effort into their coursework relative to their normal Wharton peers. 2 - The program adds three months to your MBA because it is an additional degree. Lauder isn't just choosing electives focused on international business. It is a deep dive into a specific region of interest (combined with a heavy language component and international exposure). 3 - You don't sacrifice your traditional MBA experience at Wharton and the Lauder students are fully integrated with the others.
Put these together and the Lauder experience is far more enhanced than a traditional MBA experience at either MIT or Booth. Of course, if you don't place any value on these benefits, the Lauder program may not be a good fit for you and you should just evaluate the merits of MIT vs Wharton.
OMG Comp, did you apply for consulting gigs? ;)
Also, @Latam, don't forget that a large number of firms will give you meaningful signing bonuses or even do tuition reimbursement when you sign on full time. You'll also be earning income over the summer. So while the numbers are still bad, they aren't as bad as you described unless you end up jobless.
I attend Sloan; I'm not sure what CompBanker is referring to when he says Sloan is known for its tough social atmosphere. Your chances at landing an interview at MBB will be the same from both schools (many of my classmates and I received first-round interviews from all three).
If I were you, I'd be considering three factors: (1) LGBT support, (2) the value of the Lauder program, and (3) fit.
In terms of LGBT-friendliness, I've heard the pool of LGBT students is larger at Wharton and Penn as a whole versus Sloan and MIT (this is one case where the larger class size definitely helps). That said, I have many LGBT classmates who seem to be having a fine time here.
Regarding the Lauder program, it is definitely unique and impressive. I'd simply think about how much you really want to improve your Portuguese skills. If that's a priority, it will almost certainly be easier at Wharton.
Like you mentioned, many of my classmates (including my roommates) come from engineering backgrounds. I hate that the administration moved AdMIT Weekend to April, but it is what it is. If you want me to put you in touch with the LGBT club on campus, I'm sure they'd be happy to either speak with you further or meet with you when you visit.
(If it's not clear, I'd recommend you stick to either Wharton or Sloan. For MBB consulting, recruiting outcomes differ significantly between those two and Yale/Duke.)
Hello Kingfalcon,
Thanks for taking the time to read my post and for your reply.
I agree with you, I think MIT made a bad move to move the adMIT weekend to April specially when many admits make their minds in these events.
I already contacted Sloan LGBT club and they are GREAT! I feel like they really want me to attend Sloan and join the club.
MIT Sloan has always been my dream school (I am an engineer), the community is very down-to-earth like me and the admission staff is very kind too (my interviewer was amazing).
However, I want to leave the IT world and I dont know how much the prestige and recognition of MIT will allow me to achieve that. Sometimes I wish I had been rejected by Wharton-Lauder so this decision would be so easy to make.
Do you know how many of the people interested in MBB got first round interviews? or internships/full time offers from previous MBA classes?
As you mentioned, I have almost ruled out Yale and Duke due to the MBB opportunities. I will try to visit Wharton for the admit weekend in January 31st and probably visit MIT Sloan campus for a class visit during the first week of February.
In the webpage they indicate that the Ambassador program starts in February 16th, do you know If I can just go to MIT campus a sit on a class before that date? I want to feel the MIT Sloan vibe and walk around Boston a little bit.
Thanks in advance for your support!
Best Regards,
Latam Consultant
Here at Sloan, we don't start our Spring semester until 2/5, so you may be able to sit in on a class between then and 2/16. Also, I'd estimate that about 90 people got first-round interviews to each of MBB, although I obviously don't have the exact figures. Last year, 47 people from the Class of 2014 interned at MBB with another handful going to each of Deloitte, PwC, Parthenon, and LEK. Furthermore, 57 people from the Class of 2013 went to MBB full-time. Honestly, Sloan is an awesome place to be if you're interested in consulting (not to say that Wharton isn't; they are both probably on par with each other). For what it's worth, McKinsey recruits for its Business Technology Office separately, so if you don't want to be placed into the BTO pool, you can avoid it pretty easily.
Obviously I'm biased, but it sounds to me like your heart is telling you Sloan. If you're not feeling the fit of Wharton or the extra work and expense needed to do the Lauder program, I wouldn't feel guilty at all taking Sloan over Wharton.
First of all, congrats on the offers! You are in a great spot. In terms of MBB placement, either Wharton or Sloan will get you an interview. I honestly don't see a big difference there.
The Lauder program is a very intense, unique, and yes, expensive program. I am assuming that you took a close look at the curriculum before applying, but from talking to my friends in the program, you really have to be committed to an international career in order to fully milk the program for what it's worth. There are a few guys who did Lauder because they thought they might want to work in Europe and because it sounded "interesting," and later realized that they should've just done the regular MBA.
Socially, you will have more fun at Wharton due to the culture, grade non-disclosure, and no Friday classes. It's also a lot larger than Sloan (800 vs 400), so you will get exposure to more people.
No need to wait for Booth. Wharton and MIT are both fine for your career goals, and they are all in the same "non-HBS/Stanford elite school" range. From talking to friends who applied round 1 this year, it looks like Booth is waitlisting a lot of Wharton/Columbia/Kellogg admits. Not sure what's going on, just what I've observed.
Best of luck.
This.
You won't get a scholarship off the waitlist, and between Wharton and Sloan the choice is obvious. You're bound to find people you get along with in a class of 800 and the MBB numbers look better.
Totally disagree with both of you. I'm not saying that Wharton might not be more fun, but did you read the guys posts? Seems like he really gels with Sloanies, and not so much with Wharton people. Culture is not this set thing that makes one school more fun than another. It is different everywhere, and attracts different students. Further, talk to students at Sloan and they will tell you that grade disclosure is simply not an issue, at least not for MBB. No Friday classes is definitely a plus, but then again, the more "fun" atmosphere of Wharton Thursday-Saturday might not suit the OP well.
Additionally, employment numbers at MBB are not really statistically better for Wharton over Sloan. Wharton sent 15.1% of its students to MBB, while Sloan sent 14.5%. Essentially no difference. Not arguing that Sloan is a better school or even equally "prestigious", just that for consulting, you're not dealing with much difference in placement.
I do think you will find plenty of people you get along with at Wharton, and overall, it is a better regarded school, but if you still feel like the fit is better at Sloan, I don't think you'd be making the wrong choice at all. Op is coming from a much different background than most posters on here - international, gay, engineer that is not all that socially outgoing. That is definitely not the typical WSO background.
You should reach out to the Consulting Clubs at each of the schools to get a better feel for what the MBB landscape is like. They are usually very prompt and willing to give you statistics and feedback that the employment reports don't provide. Based on those three or four conversations you'll learn way more about the MBB aspect than you will on this forum.
Tough, tough decision. Initially, I would have said Wharton Lauder with no hesitation. I think Wharton, and especially Lauder (for those that know it), is on another level from the other schools in terms of prestige.
That being said, your focused on recruiting for MBB, which means there is very little difference between Wharton and Sloan. I am throwing Yale and Duke out here, because I think they are a significant step down from the first two. As many have mentioned, you'll be fine getting interviews at both for them, and assume that applies to international offices as well. KingFalcon mentioned it, but Sloan hits over 90% in first round interviews based on my sample this year. Can't imagine Wharton is any different. Wharton is a bigger school, so I would think it has a larger global footprint, but I would specifically research alumni in each office that you're considering to make sure they're there (and that there have been some relatively recent placements).
However, I think what I mentioned in the last post brings me to something much more important. If you click with Sloanies, and are going to be doing a decent amount of alumni outreach in these international offices, that's a huge factor. You may need these people to go to bat for you, and if you continue to feel a difference in the quality of the connection that you have with the two alumni groups, that could be a deciding factor.
I just posted about my decision to attend Tuck over Sloan in another post, but I too was faced with deciding between the place that I felt was a better fit for me and a place that was slightly outside my comfort zone. I decided on the place that was more in my comfort zone, but only because I thought it was a place that I would do much better at from a growth and experience perspective. I think the thing you have to think about is will you overcome and enjoy the issues that come from going outside your comfort zone? I decided that Tuck allowed me to hit the ground running from day one, thus offering me better leadership experiences and better relationships with current students and alumni.
Just one note: don't sell the fact that you'll be forced to learn to work with different people at Sloan. First semester is super intense and highly team-based. You will have to adapt to a six-member team with incredibly diverse backgrounds (Sloan was by far the most diverse school I looked at from all perspectives). You won't miss out on these skills, and there's no way Sloan would do as well at MBB recruiting if it didn't prepare its former engineers (40% of the class) for client interactions.
Can't touch on the LGBT stuff, although I imagine that they're both fine. Philly and Boston are both big cities, and each school is a part of a larger university community, both at Penn and MIT, and among the other schools in the cities.
I dunno, man. If you really feel that strongly about the shallowness of Wharton (merited or not - different discussion for another time and place), I can't imagine going there. Again, I would talk to some of the international students recruiting for international MBB at both school, but I assume they won't be that far apart. In all, you need to get some solid facts, and once you do, weigh where you feel gives you the best career opportunities alongside what is the most comfortable fit.
Then again, I also think you should do your best, at whichever school you end up at, to expand your horizons (cliche, I know). I am not, will not, and have never been in your shoes, but to only go to LGBT parties because those are the people that are like you sort of kills one of the bigger growth opportunities of b-school.
I would never go to a place you're not excited about at all (and in fact, dreading from the sound of it), just because it has a slightly better name. Especially not when you're dealing with MIT and Penn (Sloan and Wharton), which are essentially peer institutions.
/bump
Need help with my decision :(
Thanks for your support!
Latam
PM me if you want to hop on a call about Sloan. FWIW, I was able to successfully recruit for consulting internships.
Hello guys!
Thanks for your replies so far! I think it would be useful to share my school visits with you and the big surprises of my after-trip
Wharton-Lauder: I had the opportunity to visit Wharton (not for Welcome Weekend though)and it was a great visit! I have to admit there were a lot of douchebags between first and second years. However, since the class size is so big I definitely found great people too. The Latin American club is amazing (very down to earth too). I would put it this way: 50% shallow | 20% mix of shallow and down to earth | 20% down to earth | 10% amazing classmates. But hey, since it is a big class 30% of 800 = 240, almost the class size of Berkeley!
MIT Sloan: To put it simple, amazing student body and dissapointing Adcom members. Boston is a nice city but most international students live on-campus in Cambridge. Also, most of Latin americans were married so it definitely changes the social atmosphere (I dont care too much about this point because I usually dont go to parties anyway).
I want to elaborate a little bit more why I think some members of the Adcom of MIT Sloan really dissapointed me:
First, after mi vist I kindly asked for a fellowship reconsideration explaining the offers from the other schools. I did not receive any reply (not even an acknowledgment of receipt).
A week later I send this lady another e-mail to ask for a confirmation of receipt of my first message, I got no response either. Later I call her and left her a voicemail about it, no response either.
Since MIT Sloan deposit deadline is March 3rd I e-mailed another Adcom to ask for a deposit extension (I have read in many forums last year that MIT did extend the acceptance offer up to 6 weeks in some cases without problem). I received a quick reply with a "we cannot extend your offer but call us to talk about your doubts".
Then today I call the admission office to ask about the deposit and my fellowship reconsideration petition: no one available to talk. I explained my situation to the secretary and she told me to write the financial aid lady again copying the admission team general e-mail.
Result: I wrote her an e-mail (CCing the admit email address) asking if she could offer me an answer prior to paying the deposit or if the decision would take more time I was willing to pay the deposit and wait for a final decision on my petition. I got an answer within 2 minutes................ YES, 2 MINUTES..... after waiting for a reply for 15 days. The answer was: "Thanks for your emails. Unfortunately we will not be abel to offer you a fellowship award at this time" (typo included, she could not type it faster I guess...).
What a total deception MIT Sloan. I am not dissapointed of not receiving a fellowship, I was expecting that outcome already (given Sloan reputation of giving very few scholarships). I am dissapointed of the way you treated me, was it too difficult to write a quick "thanks for your e-mail, we will consider your petition and get back to you"?.
Yale: Unfortunately could not visit
Duke: Unfortunately could not visit
Berkeley: I got accepted to Haas! (got the answer after creating this topic). I visited the campus Great student body but very small campus and most students live on Berkeley and not San Francisco (best city in US by far). The Berkeley Adcom is hands down the best team ever. I applied to scholarships in wave 1 and I did not receive any help However, I still think the Haas Adcom is great and the most welcoming and sincere of all the schools I visited.
Final decision: I have not taken it yet, I paid the Wharton deposit to have more time to think. MIT Sloan was my top choice as noted in my previous posts but the interactions with the Adcom definitely decreased my interest in that school.
I wouldn't judge a school by its admissions department. Congrats on Haas! You're fortunate enough to have a variety of choices, I hope you find the place that best fits your personal and professional goals.
In my humble opinion, your interactions with Sloan's Adcom should not form the foundation of your final decision. Frankly speaking, they don't owe you anything - they don't owe you time and they certainly don't owe you any money. Don't forget that six months ago, you were (like many of us) a hopeful applicant - once you're admitted, you're not entitled to expect some sort of monetary remuneration. Yale / Duke are not in the same tier as Wharton or MIT so it is not one bit surprising that Sloan didn't offer you any money. I got into Wharton / Columbia with no $$. If I called up either school and tried to leverage (which is what you're doing) a scholarship offer from a Yale / Duke / UVA / Stern, they would just say no. If you had scholarship $$ from Wharton (which I don't believe you've noted), you would have greater leverage, but in this case, you don't have much power.
I am sorry and equally disappointed that the MIT Sloan admissions committee did not treat you with great respect in this particular instance, but this is how the real world is. When you recruit for MBB, many people or alumni that you reach out to, will also ignore you or provide less-than-ideal responses.
What I'm saying is - you seem incredibly smart and ambitious (or you would not have been admitted to any of these schools). Base your final decision on greater macro factors (consulting placement, brand name, alumni network, social life, student body clubs) instead of one experience that is probably an anomaly. Maybe the admissions committee was super swamped / busy, and didn't have sufficient time to respond. Maybe the person you interacted with was having a bad day. If the admissions committee at Sloan changes in six months, would you choose Sloan and regret that you didn't attend?
I ended up choosing Columbia over Wharton because of personal fit and the extensive personal research that I completed.
It sounds like you also need to do more soul searching and it seems like your ego is a bit hurt right now. Relax, think about it, and make a better informed decision.
Hello Misterbearstin,
Thanks for your reply. I think you are right on many points!
I definitely cannot base my decision on bad experiences with the Adcom (mostly because once the MBA starts I will not interact with them anymore).
I agree that they do not owe me money and as I mentioned in my post I was not expecting to get something from MIT. However, I do think they owe me a little bit of their time since I already put a lot of time on my application, interviews (had to fly), visiting the campus from Latin America, etc.
I am not a prospective applicant anymore, I am an admitted student that has a direct impact on their beloved "yield" and the least they can do is to acknowledge any e-mail with any petition (even it is a weird one).
I forgot to mention, I do have some fellowship money from Wharton (small but every bit helps!).
About the comparison of my MIT interaction with real world, I think is different because in that case MBB doesnt owe anything at all. I am not paying tuition to them or something similar.
Thank you for calling me smart and ambitious :)! I will follow your advice and do some soul searching. I will probably pay the MIT deposit to have more time to clear my mind.
Congrats on your acceptance to Columbia! I think it is a terrific school in an amazing location. I would have applied there too but unfortunately they dont offer non-cosigner international loan.
Thanks again for taking the time to read my post.
Latam
I'm really sorry the administration treated you really poorly. I know I'm biased, but I would advocate that you not let your interactions with them have too much impact on the school you choose to attend. Regardless of the school you ultimately attend, you will probably have very little interaction with the administration. Overwhelmingly, your most important interactions will be with classmates.
That said, I completely understand how frustrated you must feel.
Latam, for what its worth, I've had similarly less than impressive interactions with the Sloan Admissions office and it really turned me off to the school after being accepted. I figure that if WE are expected to 'sell' ourselves and put effort into representing ourselves well, why shouldn't they? Maybe its not fair to judge the school on interactions with admissions, but other schools, i.e. Wharton, have such a well-polished machine. Why wouldn't I want to be at a school where things are well run?
Anyway, you aren't alone in your impression.
It honestly seems like almost every part of you wants to go to Sloan, but can't get over the ranking/prestige of Wharton/Lauder. Outside of some buy side finance opportunities, there are very few jobs out there that Wharton can place into that Sloan cannot. If you strike out at MBB, or decide to go in another direction, there are plenty of marketing jobs that you can get out of Sloan. Wharton may have more electives, or a couple more marketing recruiters, but the difference really won't matter.
As for tuition stuff, it's definitely more expensive. I would say that everyone I have talked to that did Lauder loved it, and did not regret the extra ~40k spent on the degree. Obviously, these people were international minded and a good fit for the program, but it seems like you are as well, so I don't see much difference there.
In the end, you have to go where you're comfortable and where you want to be. It seems like culturally and financially you prefer Sloan, but are worried about the ramifications of picking a lower-ranked school. Fuck it dude. Go where you want to be and where is right for you. In the end, the schools are basically the same in terms of professional outcomes and prestige once you take a step back and get some perspective (yes I understand Wharton is higher ranked and more "prestigious", it just doesn't make any difference at some point).
Source: I picked a lower ranked school over, among others, Sloan, because it was the best fit for me. And because again, it will likely make no difference on employment outcomes down the road.
I'm clearly biased, but I think your odds of doing MBB will be the same at both schools. And if debt is something you're concerned about (aren't we all?), I'd suggest checking out the Sloan scholarships and fellowships page: http://mitsloan.mit.edu/mba/admissions/financial-aid1/scholarships/?adm…. I can't verify this first-hand, but supposedly Sloan gives out some money as scholarships to second-year students who have done well academically or have had a significant impact on the community (obviously I can't say if this is the case at Wharton). Furthermore, TA opportunities are quite attainable if you make it a priority: I will be TAing 3-4 classes next year and one of my roommates is also TAing another.
Again, let me know if you have any questions!
Wharton Lauder.
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