So what can we really do about guns in America?
Alone among developed nations, the US is a haven for guns and gun-related deaths.
I've never been able to understand America's love of guns, or why any society thinks it is at all safer with guns on the street.
I think this picture summarizes it well:
:format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/18929874/8_5_Gun_Violence__1_.png)
I find it insane that people think that they are somehow SAFER if any adult can buy tool specifically designed for long-distance killing.
When I visited one of my US co-workers' house he had a damn gun rack, with a pump-action shotgun, a 44, and a rifle with scope and tripod, plus a half dozen more guns.
And he lived in a high-floor apartment, directly across the street from a school.
Why should people be able to own a sniper rifle across the street from a school?
What if next time he has a really bad day he wants to make it everyone else's really bad day too?
I've lived in multiple countries (Israel, HK, Singapore, China, Denmark, UK, USA, Italy) and I can say unequivocally that the US is the least safe, by a large margin.
In Singapore, HK, Denmark... I wouldn't think twice about having my wife and infant son walk home from the park at 10pm at night, unescorted. Typically in fact, they DO go to the park at night, after dinner.
In the US, I am scared to let my family venture out in broad daylight, and I'd NEVER let them go out at night.
I'd really consider twice about moving to the US now, and having my kid go to American public schools.
Can someone make some sense of this?
I'm genuinely asking - not trying to pick a fight.
I just seriously don't understand this gun fascination, and I never have, despite living over 15 years in the USA.
The cat is already out of the bag, we cant go back in time, we cant put a lid on it. We can ban semi automatic rifles and that will help the future to a degree. We could have stricter background checks, we could have psychological evaluations, but is the guy who is sick and determined enough to shoot up innocent people, going to roll over and accept not getting legal access to a gun when there are already over 400 million guns across the country they could get their hands on illegally? We could ban all guns and then we would have a dramatic shift of predator vs. prey.
There is an answer.
The ONLY answer, when you go down all these roads, is to fight. When you are attacked, you fight. I am getting my conceal carry, I have ordered a gun, it is on the way. Every person that is rational need to get their CCW and train. Tell me I am wrong, tell me that I am too aggressive, but tell me that when I am able to kill the bastard before you or your loved ones get shot. If you are grateful for the idea of that individual, you should try to be prepared to be that individual.
Kudos to you on the CCW.
You got a CCW in NYC? Or do you live elsewhere?
Almost certainly lives elsewhere, possibly another NY county but even then the city won’t recognize it - last I read anyways.
not in NYC
Not judging your marksmanship or combat ability, but I wonder what would happen if every person had the same mindset as you. Imagine gunshots go off, you look around and there are a couple of cowboys slinging guns with the same intention of killing the shooter. could you pick the real threat at that moment? Maybe you can keep your cool and not start shooting at other well-intentioned folks, but the moment you whip a gun out, you become a suspected shooter to anyone else in the room.
I have spent plenty of time with guns, and I know I don't want to be the guy taking a shot when there is an innocent mom within 15 feet of the shooter. there will no doubt be stray bullets, friendly fire, and other mistakes made.
I'm not a seasoned war vet and don't know how I would react in an active shooter situation. I have a healthy distrust of my own composure in that situation and am sure not confident in half of society's ability to maintain their composure in that situation.
I'd thank you profusely when you rescue my family by killing the active shooter, but I'd be really pissed off when your stray bullet hits my family.
Maybe my family gets hit but you save 2 other families because you had a gun. So maybe it is a good idea, but this simplified logic of only a good guy can stop a bad guy with a gun, is BS. not saying you, but people arguing this point need a more complex argument.
Those are greats things to think about, and this is all hypothetical but you gotta think about it from the shooters point of view too, you think these mouth breathing mongoloids are willing to be in a firefight when rounds start flying their way? Also, every mass shooting ends only when other firearms show up.
With a CCW, the option to not use your gun is always available.
Without a CCW, the option to defend yourself is never available.
This 100%
Nothing can be done, at least without rallies it does not work. It is beneficial to all, except the people. Even the police is beneficial that a civilian walking around with weapons. I think it would be cool if they gave traumatic weapons, not firearms.
My god this is one dramatic post. Clearly the USA is not your birth country but if you are as terrified as you type here then for the sake of your family's safety maybe you should explore other options. If there was ever an area that in broad daylight I was scared then it only means I am in an area I clearly should not be and have no business being in.
Arghhh, that damn ole Bill of Rights.
I am a natural born US citizen, and fairly patriotic at that. (born overseas, grew up in USA
I do not think the US is safe - at all. And I see it as a duty to speak out against bad policy
And I don't see how I can bring my family to such a place, even though it used to be home.
so many things to love about America, but a massively-armed society is not sane.
There's always some % of loose-cannons in society. And that means that having guns be broadly available to people is a terrible idea.
There's never been another country where I'd be afraid to send my kid to school. Even when I lived in Israel, I felt generally safe.
But the US?
Sending a kid to school seems like one ought to put them in a bullet-proof vest first.
You sound like a hysterical idiot. The vast majority of violent crime in the US, including gun violence, is committed by a small faction of the population commonly called "urban youths." That's a fact backed up by all longitudinal FBI and CDC crime stats. Control for that factor and the US violent crime rate is on par with Europe's. Please shut the hell up.
I'd rather roll the dice on the Government attacking unarmed defendless little me (#4) than keep flooding the market with assault weapons. It is a stupid argument, in my opinion, and just an excuse made by people who refuse to see what is happening now. This has been said a billion times in the other threads about this anyways.
Yeah I'm sure old man hinkleberry is going to come to my rescue with his 190 firearms when the government comes rolling in with tanks and armed, trained soldiers.
You are completely wrong. Look at history. The vast majority of mass shooting deaths have been at the hands of government.
Exactly. Gun-nuts act as if their puny arms are going to do much to prevent this hypothetical government over-reach. Good luck taking out the US military with your small-arms fire.
You can create a police state without gun control. Our police force is militarized and a citizen with a gun has literally no chance if the US gov decided to be truly oppressive.
This is a real tin-foil-hat clipping. And you got it backwards.
"control healthcare" - no dude, PROVIDE healthcare. Like every other developed nation.
"control guns" - yeah, so your family doesn't get shot, because there's some % of the population that is crazy / angry, and because we can't let them get guns, and can't tell who they are, it's better no one gets guns
Have you ever lived overseas? None of this 'no healthcare for you' and 'guns for everyone!' bullshit happens overseas.
From a man I spoke with who lived in Denmark:
“Nordic people are not selfless in healthcare, Americans are just overly selfish. Here, people would rather spend their entire paychecks on their own healthcare knowing every penny was focused on them, rather than half that amount knowing a few dollars went to their neighbor’s bill too.”
I found this to be true. Families go on family plans for everything to lower the cost. Especially healthcare. That’s why companies will sometimes provide healthcare benefits- it’s cheaper for them as a collective. Every American will say, “Duh, I know that.” But still won’t fix the problem.
Guns seems like the independent variable here, but I would argue it is a lot more complicated than that, and in this political climate "just trying out" some sort of wide-scale ban or crack down would be tantamount to civil war.
My question is, why they United States? Because this sort of violence is not proportional to gun ownership in other countries. Look at the number state with guns per capita which is Serbia. Sure they have violence because it is an impoverished and corrupt country, but mass shootings are by no means a regular or even irregular occurrence. You could argue they have stricter laws, but you also have a lot of hardware hanging around from the Yugoslav wars, you have a lot more people without resources to handle their issues and so forth. So why do they have absolutely none of the type of violence the United States has?
In a similar comparison, Belgium and Bosnia-Herzegovina have similar levels of violent crime committed with firearms. Both have relatively strict gun laws, but one is a secure, developed country with a social safety net whereas the other one is practically a failed state with entrenched ethnic divisions and scars of a sectarian war still running deep. Again all the "reasons" for someone to do something yet nothing on the scale of the US.
Something in the water? on TV? Is it the isolation? I don't know, but I know a hunk of metal is not the culprit.
Guns are not an independent variable. A certain % of the population is crazy / angry, and if you have an armed populace, you get armed crazy/angry people.
The only solution is that no one gets arms.
I don't comment on things I know nothing about - so I can't comment on Serbia, but I know for damn sure America can't handle its guns. I suspect if I dug into the Serbia example as well, it would fall apart too. And as you've pointed out - Serbia has violence, and I don't think you can say it's just because they are poor. There are poor/crazy/angry/disaffected people everywhere. It's the human condition. What is a dumb idea is to give them all guns and see what happens.
I am not saying you are wrong, but you cannot realistically suggest no one gets arms. Would some people wave a magic wand and make all the guns disappear? They surely would if they could, but in reality any solution which tries to reduce the number of guns in the United States would be politically and socially disastrous. I am not saying it is right, but there would be serious unrest. I don't think it would even be possible to recreate the Clinton era assault weapons ban in this political climate.
As for my comparison with Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes they have crime, yes there is the human condition, but again how can you have countries where people can live a few doors down from someone whose war crimes go unpunished (a reality in Bosnia today for many people) and no gets popped off. But in the states, some guy who hasn't left his mom's basement for months or can't get laid thinks its justified to kill hordes of people? We don't even have a motive for the Las Vegas shooting
Other people have guns, they can handle them, the real question is why can't a proportion of them do this in the United States. Its a perplexing and disturbing condition with no band aid solution.
Good question. My family's from the Balkans and I can wholeheartedly say no one down there would do anything like this. You can pretty much walk wherever you want at any time of day and night and nothing will happen to you.
Well they have a decent amount of petty crime and their organized crime is pretty big. But its still a very safe place and the professional criminals tend to keep to themselves. They make too much money moving stolen cars east and heroin west to bother most people (but hey when there's a hit there can be collateral ).
It just shocks me though the amount of violence people saw in the recent past, how much of that violence is unresolved, how much of a role it plays in daily discourse, how disenfranchised and poor people are.... yet no one shoots up a school, something which occurs like clock work in the United States.
Let's shoot all the gun owners and then shoot all the guns. MERICA
We've had at least two massive threads about this plus a joke thread that turned into a thread about this. Do we really need another?
Duplicate threads is a problem on all of the forums I use. At least /r/consulting has decent moderators that delete this kind of shit.
For real I’m tired of arguing with you man!! Lol
I'm so tired of these fucking threads
Yah this forum blows.
kill all gun owners
this is a joke btw
This chart is a perfect example of fitting data to a narrative instead of letting data actually guide decision making. I'm not sure if you read the article, but the chart is comprised of data from all of ONE YEAR - 2012. It conveniently leaves out historically relevant events like the Spanish Civil war, WW2, not to mention all of the fighting in the balkans in the early 90s. Many other countries don't have an armed populace, so they have less gun deaths. Duh. But to paint this so black and white as "guns bad" "no guns good", and to do so based on a single year of data is dishonest.
Orange man bad
oh please, you can pull any year and US leads the non-war per-capita homicide list by a wide, wide, wide margin
The vast majority of those homocides are committed by "urban youths", and when you control for that factor our violent crime rates are on par with Europe's. Again, you have no idea about the underlying issues in the US, just shut up.
When I see data that USA has higher overall murder rates, instead of just gun-related death rates, I'll start caring more.
I'm sure Spain has more deaths related to goring by bulls than any other country, but I don't see us looking to "solve the bull problem" in Spain.
Mass shootings are awful and I'm sure some things can be done to reduce them, but compare the overall deaths to just about anything (disease, accidents etc) and you'll see that its not even in the same galaxy. Pools alone are brutal killing machines compared to semiautomatic rifles. So are carbs
None of this is to say it wouldn't be very good to limit access to guns. Most sensible thing I'm aware of is the trigger ID system where only the owner can shoot.
But I do understand why people don't prioritize it. If you're focused on data instead of headlines, there's a strong case for not spending much energy on guns.
lots of people are against bullfighting - albeit for the sake of animals, not people
and carbs do not kill people.
gun deaths are a preventable form of death, and a serious social problem
Carbs absolutely kill people. Millions. They contribute to diabetes and other metabolic diseases, which in turn contribute to a host of deadly conditions like heart disease and cancer.
But the relationship isn't direct so we mostly look past it.
"Gun deaths are a preventable form of death"
@PteroGonzalez" I don't want to get involved in the emotional arguments, as I don't live in the US, but there is data out there if you're interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide… ; US homicide rate is 5.3/100k, which is 89th in the world. Not bad, but if you compare it toEurope, rates are much lower there: France is at 1.3, UK at 1.2, and Spain at 0.7.
Also, gun murder rates in US represent more than 60% of murder rates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_…
So you prefer to get stabbed rather than shot, is really what you're saying there.
For those who are indifferent between the two (or maybe even prefer to get shot), they see that they are living in the 89th ranked murder rate country.
Guns don't kill people. People kill people. End of thread.
Yeah, people with guns
Or knives or fists or blunt objects or cars or bombs or fire or flying planes into buildings etc
Here are the liberals coming to take your guns in 2034
https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/external/kH0_pQr9dMFNJl7YkdqyptPMOt…
Jk that's russia today rounding up protestors.
These are the liberals coming to take your guns in 2034
https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/external/kH0_pQr9dMFNJl7YkdqyptPMOt…
jk thats actually the chinese quelling protests in hong kong
i'm keeping my guns thank you very much
You just proved yourself wrong.
I live in Hong Kong. I was at the protests last night.
And I am VERY HAPPY we do not have guns.
Right now you have both pro-HK and pro-Beijing citizens clashing in the streets. The police have been fairly calm in teh "quelling" of these protests. Mostly they just arrest people for fighting.
Now, if there were guns available to citizens, I guarantee you we would have had hundreds of shooting deaths by now. Pro-Beijing and pro-HK supporters would have opened fire on the other side. And police who treat protesters delicately would have to have rolled in with APCs because there were guns involved.
Then why are you bitching about American gun laws. Communism is shit but I'm not shitposting about that.
The gun laws are the same as European countries when you don't account for "urban youth".
Because I'm an American and will move back - possibly soon.
Because I've got 2 brothers, 2 cousins, and 6 nieces / nephew going to public schools in the US.
Because somehow it is still ok to have an armed citizenry and the small % of screwballs in society seem readily able to get guns easily and treat schools and public places as a turkey shoot.
The bigger question is - why aren't YOU bitching about it.
Because I shoot guns whenever I'm at the range. I live in NYC so I can't have guns here.
I felt the safest down in Louisiana where everyone has 17 guns. No one is dumb enough to rob a store. People understood guns and no one would walk in and shoot anywhere because good ol chainsmoking uncle bob would have a round in their head in half a second at walmart if anyone tried anything.,
Keep your hands off my gun commie.
Voluptatem iste ut doloremque rerum sint numquam facilis. Autem facere dolorum et iure quod dignissimos. Ut fuga nesciunt aliquam. Maiores est voluptatem eius consequatur omnis vitae.
Esse id velit nesciunt nobis deleniti libero. Accusamus consequatur quia architecto dolore consequuntur eum. Assumenda rerum exercitationem ut architecto perferendis repellat qui quia. Totam et consequatur corrupti qui consequatur non ab.
Incidunt exercitationem fuga aut rerum quas. Dolor quasi id magni tempore saepe est deleniti. Perspiciatis possimus est nihil aut velit. Ea ipsa omnis ab similique et aliquam maiores.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Dolor voluptatibus adipisci enim ea. Veritatis perferendis natus perferendis tempore. Minima odio laborum sed voluptate delectus et. Voluptas voluptatem neque veniam et sed. Nobis quas deserunt in quisquam dignissimos ut reiciendis.
Iste quam architecto velit molestias omnis natus in. Consequuntur quibusdam est voluptatum accusantium inventore. Ut perspiciatis dolorem temporibus officia. Omnis esse iste saepe eum magni. Accusantium magnam harum ab corrupti neque.
Nulla quam ad aperiam quo voluptatem neque. Doloremque eos magni voluptatem corrupti et porro consectetur provident. Rem consequatur in exercitationem magnam. Non earum aut magnam. Magnam dicta sapiente vero qui voluptas. Aut velit totam et ut aut dicta molestiae. In quia ex quas est ut animi ipsum quae.
Ab et ipsum unde. Quia repellendus alias sed et quam laudantium. Eos neque saepe at tempore. Ducimus cumque eveniet aspernatur odio quasi et nisi.