Are you an introvert? ...in banking?!
Myself?! Guilty as charged. If anything I graduated from introversion to softcore misanthropy.
So how do introverts succeed in this industry? I'd be very interested in your views on the topic and how you overcame your natural instinct to steer clear of your fellow apes.
In may case, I'm a quant/analyst so facetime is minimal. Sure I have to do the odd presentation and socials every now and then. But it's mostly just me and my laptop.
I ask because I'm reading this pretty good book on how introverts eventually do better than their extrovert counterparts. Interesting stuff, though I dont quite buy it. Dont wanna go advertising but I'll post a link if anyone asks.)
Interested. I'm an introvert, but I can bullshit and seem like the biggest extrovert. Also, I do become an extrovert (sort of) when I get accustomed to my surroundings.
But I want to hear people's answers on here.
Ahhh the "charm offensive" button. Frikkin life-saver. Always works better under the influence too. link: http://www.thepowerofintroverts.com/ Like i said, not advertising but its an awesome read so far.
I quite liked her TED talk as well (I hope I am not re-posting this)
it is hard. it is the reason i never even tried to make VP. eventually you need to move into a sales function as MD. very hard to do as an introvert. i've yet to meet an introverted MD.
Simple solution: Pretend.
But the simple fact is that people ARE different. It's important to recognise and be confident in your own personality. eg My ideal weekend involves a good cigar n whisky on my veranda overlooking my small garden & pond. I've never enjoyed the stereotypical hedostic party nights. Loud music, overcrowded clubs, come home smelling like shyt. So I'll socialise with collegues at work etc but everyone knows that my weekends and after-hours are sacred. Sure they all probably think I'm sad. But I cant go through life pretending to enjoy things I clearly dont.
They exist. Like others say, they're simply expert bullshitters....or introverted extros. Money is a powerful psychologist. Like I said, pretending works for a while but sooner or later the bullshit tank is gonna run empty unless you genuinely shift your personality. I also dont know how healthy it is, psychologically, to base your existence on faking your personality. Sounds like a road to sociopathic tendencies to me.I agree, you have to pretend if you want to make it,but its absolutely possible.
While I'm not an introvert, my sister is and I could see how a FO role would be difficult if you have that type of personality. But, I'm sure there's plenty of introverted bankers/traders out there. As long as you're not some weird social recluse, it's all good.
Introverts in Ibanking (Originally Posted: 08/05/2011)
Have you guys ever met anyone who has an introvert-ish personality that is in i-banking? I think this may be my personality. By introvert I don't mean shy or anti-social, I don't have any trouble talking with people but I just don't out of my way to approach/meet people. This is the biggest problem during networking events because I see a lot of students just getting ready to pounce on the recruiters while I just don't have this mentality.
Also, I'm not that tall, 5'6-5'7, since it is a client-facing job, do banks prefer taller people?
Should I have just majored in engineering instead?
Btw, not a troll.
No one has talked about the hybrid of extroverts and introverts. There are actually four types of personality: introvert, extrovert, extroverted introvert and introverted extrovert. I think some of us belongs to one of the latter twos. I took me a long time to figure this out because I was an introvert by nature but can easily switch to becoming an extrovert. I realize that I am an "extroverted introvert".
Extroverted Introvert: http://www.cvtips.com/career-choice/best-careers-and-skills-for-extrove… Introverted Extrovert: http://www.cvtips.com/career-choice/best-careers-and-skills-for-introve…
yes investment bankers are nerds
those eager beaver networkers are douches anyway
As an analyst you'll be fine... You may never make it to VP or above if you dislike/aren't good at talking to clients, but most people leave the industry way before that anyway, so no need to worry.
And don't worry about your height lol, you can't change that anyway
Yeah man pure fags in I-Banking. Everyone prefers taller people. Yes you definitely should have majored in engineering.
BTW, I'm a troll.
if you want to do i-banking, go for it. I know plenty of people who work in the field that are 5'6"-5'7"
personality doesn't matter when all you do is stare at a screen all day
Yes, bankers are nerds. Some are vaguely fratty, but believe me, plenty of introverts. I'm only 5'6"-5'7" and I haven't had any problem.
Yeah man sorry you don't meet the 6'9" height cut-off for BB's. Get out while you can
How do you even pass the interviews if your an introvert?
does anyone know the height cutoff for top BB (think GS/JP/MS)?
lmaooo win
I'm left handed. Will I make it into IB?
fuck no. are you serious?
Will I at least be considered for smaller boutique firms then? I'm assuming that BB take the tallest bunch (6'9~), MM takes the next (6'0~), and small boutiques get stuck with the rest (1'0-5'7~)?
Hmmm.. idk.. 5'7" is more like bank teller material. Try wearing high heels to your boutique interviews..
Fake it till you make it. I'm extremely introverted. When networking, that's not okay so I just got over it and did what I had to do. On the desk, people will definitely complain if you don't go to group events, eat lunch or seamless dinners with coworkers or just want to be by yourself a lot. Most networking events HR sets up are mandatory. As long as you are not anti-social, you should be fine.
I've never noticed, but yea, most senior bankers are pretty tall. I don't think it matters too much on the analyst level. Though you don't see too many super short (5'5'' and under) male analysts...
I believe there are a lot leaders out there (not necessarily in finance) who are introverts. Introvert is NOT somebody who will avoid to go to networking events, parties, have a good time etc etc. More on the lines he will generally not speak too much, would not look to desperate and when he makes relationships, it will be long term.
Also they tend to cut the bullshit type of guys, which is a good quality.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/30/introverts-good-leaders-leadership-man…
Since you know you are an introvert make the best use of your quality.
Isn't the current King of High Finance, Blankfein, 5'6?
OP, you'll be fine... I hope. lol, I'm 5'7 too, and kind of an introvert.
JD Rockafeller was a huge introvert and he was always wheeling and dealin
Read this.
http://owlcityblog.com/2011/06/27/10-myths-about-introverts/
How would the interviewer even know? If you can interview well and know which buttons to push, they wouldn't know one way or another.
Funnily enough, almost everyone I know from MS is introverted.
Quants.
Agree with the fake it till you make it comment. Introverts have a way of observing what does and doesn't fly in social interactions - just use what does work in the interviews/networking events and you'll be fine. Do the easy things like remember and repeat names and show genuine interest in what the person on the other end of the table has to say.
Worked for me and I'm a huge introvert/borderline anti-social. Starting out on the desk might be a little rough, but as you spend more time with the people and get used to them things will fall into place and feel a lot more natural.
Yeah when I said it's fine to be an introvert, I didn't mean that you won't have to socialize from time to time, there will still be the duty fuck networking events you have to attend. You'll learn pretty quickly what's important and what you can skip. The bullshit networking events are a lot more fun if you're an alcoholic, so don't try to stay sober, none of the senior bankers do. Also you could do coke, that gets people talking. I'm not joking.
You can be introverted, but you still have to make sure you aren't being rude you know?
.
There seems to be a wild misinterpretation of what "introvert" and "extravert" mean. For example, the question was raised, "how does an introvert even make it through interviewing?" Introverts are just like anyone else--some are shy, some are very charismatic and gregarious, some are great talkers, some great listeners, some brilliant and some moronic. An introvert is simply a person who is energized by alone time and/or quiet time, who can maintain focus for hours while alone. An extravert is someone who is energized by being around lots of people and being out in the crowd; they tend to have difficulty spending hours alone.
As a result, a 20-something introvert will tend to have 300 or less facebook friends while an extravert will tend to have more than 500, but both have an equal number of actual friends--about 10 or less.
I'm what one would call a borderline "extreme" introvert. I can literally spend weeks alone by myself, focusing on certain tasks. But virtually anyone who meets me in person thinks I'm an outgoing, gregarious, charismatic, fun-loving person. Introversion is just one aspect of a person's personality. An introvert is not someone who hates people, who doesn't know how to talk, can't maintain eye contact, and dreads going out. We don't "dread" going to events, but throughout the course of our lives we'd rather watch a movie with a close friend than hangout at the bowling alley with 10 friendly acquaintances.
Well put, SB
EDIT: sorry, basically said exact same thing as Virginia Tech
You know, all this simple categorization belies a subtler and more realistic conception of gregarious behavior. Yes, we can have a few categories such as "introverted", "extroverted", even "introverted extrovert", but it is my intuition that the propensity of a person to engage in social behavior is a composite of underlying factors such as anxiety, loss aversion bias, self-esteem, ability to express oneself verbally, etc.
Another important aspect of this problem to consider is that each individual interaction is determined by the mental composition of each one of the participants. In other words, one cannot absolutely value the gregariousness of an individual without comparison to a peer group.
Additionally, future interactions are influenced by past interactions. So if one finds themselves in an environment where they are conditioned into introversion, such as a school where the average IQ gap between the individual and his/her peers is high or there is a cultural barrier of some sort, they may act less socially in future encounters even if such impediments to socialization were lifted. However, the possibility remains that if they were originally conditioned in a more compatible environment, they would act like an extrovert.
Introverts and the Post-MBA IB Associate Path? (Originally Posted: 07/11/2014)
Hello fellow monkeys,
I am currently in the Siemens Financial Leadership Development Program (FLDP). With the end of my third rotation coming to a close soon I have been thinking about moving on to grad school having taken the GMAT earlier this year and my plans forward. Right now I am trying to narrow down options for career plans starting with pursuing the Investment Banking associate route upon completion of grad school.
As the title of this thread may hint, I am somewhat of an introvert. I am not an introvert in the sense that I am anti-social or timid but lacking the initiative to approach people. After a few interactions with a new person I met though I can typically approach them way easier, so it all comes down to a level of comfort for me. Although this may be the case, professionally if the job needs to be done I typically "fake it till I make it" for going out my way to approach people if need be but otherwise it takes some time for me, not that it's impossible for me to do it.
From what I understand when you rise the IB ladder you will get to deal with more and more clients but I don't know how much interaction is necessarily involved especially on the Associate level. With this I was wondering if pursuing the IB Associate route was ok for introverted personality types like me because I figured you can only "fake it till you make it" for so long!
Thanks!
[quote=mtp0101]You know, all this simple categorization belies a subtler and more realistic conception of gregarious behavior. Yes, we can have a few categories such as "introverted", "extroverted", even "introverted extrovert", but it is my intuition that the propensity of a person to engage in social behavior is a composite of underlying factors such as anxiety, loss aversion bias, self-esteem, ability to express oneself verbally, etc.
Another important aspect of this problem to consider is that each individual interaction is determined by the mental composition of each one of the participants. In other words, one cannot absolutely value the gregariousness of an individual without comparison to a peer group.
Additionally, future interactions are influenced by past interactions. So if one finds themselves in an environment where they are conditioned into introversion, such as a school where the average IQ gap between the individual and his/her peers is high or there is a cultural barrier of some sort, they may act less socially in future encounters even if such impediments to socialization were lifted. However, the possibility remains that if they were originally conditioned in a more compatible environment, they would act like an extrovert.[/quo Lol, you come across as very intelligent. I agree
From what I understand when as you move from Associate ---> VP, etc. the nature of the job becomes more "sales" related since you want to get clients. I would think that being an introvert would put you at a significant advantage if you are planning to become a career banker and rise the ranks, but I think you should be ok as associate.
I could be wrong though so if anyone else actually knows I would be interested in hearing about it as well!
Just because you're an introvert now doesn't mean you can't change. I hate how people classify themselves into one group and think they're going to be like that for the rest of their lives. You will grow, age and, mature.
What % of Analysts/associates are anti social? (Originally Posted: 03/19/2008)
Over the past couple of months, I've been reaching out to bankers to get idea of what banking's like. Those that I've met have been great - I'd have no qualms working with them.
That said, I did come across a few anti-social analysts/associates. Not too sure why this surprised me, and in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. I just found it interesting, and would love to get your thoughts on the range of personalities in your group
i'm doing none of these three, as i'm a God among humans and any growth or maturity would serve to taint my perfection.
I am interested to know as well. I enjoy socializing at work, but I absolutely do not enjoy hanging out with colleagues after work, for drinks or whatever. Is there an expectation to do these things on a regular basis?
I thought the whole point of enduring jock & socialite culture in university and getting good grades was so that you can get a good job where you don't have to put up with that crap anymore. Work is work. My time with my friends and family is my time with my friends and family. Why would I spend more time with shallow elitist brand-conscious finance people than I have to? Those people might think I'm anti-social but who cares. People I know and like are the ones that matter. Not to say that all people in IB are elitist and brand-conscious to the point of ridiculousness, but come on -- a lot of them are.
Wow, look at you already pretending to be any better all of the prodessionals working in the industry that you're hoping to join. Why wouldn't the profession also be filled w/ professionals who are not elitist and brand-conscious similar to you?
Hopefully, they don't jump to ask quick of an incorrect generalization as you have. Seriously, get the fuck over yourself and open your eyes before you start working.
Nice to see generalizations flying all around. Why do people think that everyone but them is an insufferable asshole?
Why do you care? If you like hanging out with your coworkers, that's awesome, more power to you, you're going to have a good time. If you don't, they're not going to force you. Simple as that.
Every bank is different (some are MUCH different). Some socialize together after work, joke around at the office a lot, etc. Others keep is strictly professional. This also varies by office.
The higher level bankers are usually more sociable though.
I qualified my generalisation. :) Are you saying that finance doesn't attract a lot of shallow people? Anyway, it doesn't matter. Everyone is free to interact with whomever they like, and equally free not to interact with whomever they dislike (to a large extent).
yeah, it really isn't a big deal if someone is anti social. Work is work. I totally respect that. Admittedly, at work, I'm more anti social than not. (fyi i'm not in Banking) It works for me now, but I'm wondering if I'll be able to keep this up if I get into banking. Bottles touched mentioned that higher level bankers are usually more sociable, which makes sense given nature of their work.
I'll be entering an MBA program this Sept, and would like to break into banking. I always viewed socializing as a non-factor, but the more I look into it, the more I realize that maybe I was wrong...
at the MBA level, there is definitely emphasis on social skills. the banks have multiple opportunities to observe how MBAs interact in social settings at all of their receptions (both on and off campus) as well as office visits.
some classmates with more ideal backgrounds (CPA, valuation experience, etc) did not land summer associate offers and the general consensus is that it's bc they are are socially awkward or simply unpleasant to be around.
I think only a small portion of bankers ENTERING the field are anti socials. But after a few years of 100 hour work weeks I imagine its the majority..
A definition of "anti-social" would certainly help this discussion move forward. In reply to CDN above, how much socializing can an analyst really do if he/she is working every waking hour?
I agree w/Monkeyman, a definition would help. Are we talking about anti-social by choice (quiet, loner-types) or anti-social by vocation (too fucking busy/tired to go out) or anti-social with regards to coworkers but perfectly social with friends (I work with these people for 100 hours a week, I'm not spending my saturday night with them too)?
"Antisocial" does not fit the context of the discussion. Antisocial Personality Disorder is a completely different form of behavior than one generally not socializing.
Depends on the group as someone mentioned. If the group values the social/group aspect, you won't find many anti-social individuals since its unlikely they would be hired (not exactly a hard job to find qualified people for).
the more senior the weirder to some extent (except for the old school BSD MD's), all the normal people with friends and a functioning social life tend to GTFO
I'm going to go ahead and second leveredarb. (Obviously, generalizations are bad, etc.).
I mean, think about it. Almost everyone in this industry is anti-social; otherwise, they wouldn't be in this industry. (At the very least, they probably prioritize wealth/career over people, so the end result is the same).
The social ones go corporate and settle in for a life of 40-hour work weeks, IKEA trips with their significant other, and actually keeping up with the shows they record on their DVR.
Everything is a trade-off.
To actually answer your question, though, you will be able to make work friends, and probably get the chance to hang out with them outside work (if you want to). Pretty much the same as any other situation in which a group of people hangs out together for long periods of time.
Try acting... you'd probably kill it!
Introversion/Extraversion (Originally Posted: 06/29/2010)
I am inclined toward introversion, I still have people skills and can talk well about things I am knowledgable about. However, i was wondering how important it is to be "extroverted" or out going in IBing. Is thier an advantage to being outgoing or is there equal emphasis put on work ethic and desire rather than being able to shoot the shit?
From those I've met at the associate, VP, and MD level, it's work ethic and desire early on, but being able to shoot the shit to move up.
You have to be a machine for the first couple of years with your computer, and after that you need to be a people person.
it all comes down to 5/6 interviews, what you are doesn't mean anything, if you can perform there, you are good to go. I normally have a red bull before interviews and it gives a good boost to personality. Once in, you'll find a number of nerdy analysts (not saying you are one) as well
Really? Caffeine has the total opposite effect on me. Puts me in a reticent mood.
I actually know a few other people who do that red bull thing for interviews (and exams). One friend says it makes him more extroverted and helps him react faster. Any thoughts on this?
Definitely some validity to that idea. When I drink coffee, I become more extroverted, react quicker in conversation, and am more eloquent in my speech.
I think its important to be outgoing. Obviously getting your work done matters the most, but who is to say you can't be both. There are so many "over achievers" in IB that you will be competing against people who are Excel rockstars and can bullshit with the best of them. Those people will be your competition as you move of the food chain.
It's something you should work on. I don't think there is really a down side to being outgoing but there are certainly benefits, both professionally as well as personally. The more you talk to people, especially, random people who you don't really know, the better you will be able to adapt in future conversations when things might become difficult (interviews, investment presentations, etc).
Ultimately keeping to yourself won't make you a bad analyst, but it could certainly hamper your promotion potential because people really want to work with folks they get along with, especially when they are slaving away with long hours like in IB. Good luck.
Regards
Go become a quant
uhhh you guys need to distinguish between extraversion/intraversion and people skills, and cultural fit.
On cultural fit, if everyone in your field is highly cultured and only cares about philosophies and the arts, and you only know about beer and football your not going to be liked, and vice versa.
Also you need to distinguish between likeability/people skills and extraversion, theres lots of outgoing people that are fun and likeable but theres some that you couldnt stand for 20 minutes(altough in general outgoing people are much easier to get along with).
Lastly in the early years in IBD intraversion is likely an advantage as introverts find it much easier to work alone on projects for a long time and don't need people and parties as much, thus making the stint easier for them. Later on this is reversed.
Also redbull definetly works since it gives you a better energy level and thus makes you more active and fun.
I used to associate people skills almost strictly with extroversion, however after coming into the industry I've found a surprising amount of individuals who are far from charismatic but possess a formidable network. (And I work in VC, where "schmoozing" is often considered a necessity.) It's not always about being outwardly outgoing - it's about knowing who to connect with, having enough industry knowledge to engage in an intelligent conversation, and being at the right place at the right time.
At the analyst level investment banking is rife with introverts. It would be pretty difficult to spend 100 hours in Excel and Powerpoint per week as a true extrovert. As you move up the totem pole in IB it's pretty obvious that those at the top are much more extroverted. I'm hazarding a guess, but I would assume that most of these individuals are post-MBA associates with zero previous IB stints.
I'm an introvert. I don't know where I can survive and succeed in finance because moving up the ladder will be difficult.
very funny comments loving it i guess introvert or extrovert we have to be confident in who we are and act accordingly. Beleiving in yourself and confidence is important.
Check out the author's presentation on TED
http://www.ted.com/speakers/susan_cain.html
We live in the century of hypochondriacs and over diagnosing doctors. It seems that everyone has some kind of disorder nowadays.
I do not get the point of the thread, as an analyst doesn't matter what you are, if you stay past analyst what you are is quite clear, fucking nuts.
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