12/15/09

i know they get made fun of on this board, but they seem pretty selective (Jefferies was listed #10 or so in most selective for Vault Guides). I assume 3.7 Ivy with finance internships are minimum for interview, but how much less selective are they really then BBs?

Comments (36)

Best Response
12/15/09

The 3.7 ivy number is off, there are tons of kids at bb's with 3.5s...some boutiques are more selective wrt gpa though.

But the pipers, jefferies and cowens of the world are not much less selective than any BB. A superday I had at one of these firms had kids from wharton and stern with two summers of BB experience. Most analysts at these places aren't shlubs either; more come from nontargets but they're generally bright and from good schools. The offer spots to kids at superday ratio is also comparable to bulges at around 10-20%. I know a number of people (myself included) who received multiple offers at top BBs and were put on hold or rejected from these middle market guys. What most people on this board who haven't gone through recruiting (and some fools who have) don't realize is that interviews are mostly about fit. Which means they're random. Which means getting a job at one of these places is still hard. And it should be, these jobs still pay 100k out of undergrad and let you work on multimillion dollar transactions. The XTO deal shows that Jefferies can work on a blockbuster deal as well. Cowen worked on a number of blockbuster healthcare deals a couple of years ago (Huntsman being a notable one). The media group at PJC also does some really cool deals (albeit mostly with an EV < 1bln).

You might make slightly less money at one of these places (maybe work a little less), bind your own pitchbooks, have little shot at a megafund, and give kids on wso without a job less of a hardon, but you still have a good job.

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12/15/09

ROFL VAULT GUIDES ROFL 3.7 IVYNOT EVEN GS IS ALL 3.7 IVY (BYU, BARUCH, ETC.)

DO NOT WORK AT JEFFERIES U LOSER, IT BLOWS AKA EVERY1 AT MY SCHOOL WITH OFFERS TURNED IT DOWN THIS YEAR

12/15/09

sorry for the ridiculous stream of consciousness above. don't read vault. both are only marginally less selective than lower tier bulges - if at all. it's not like shit plays out with the best kids getting the best offers anyways.

"Ride your bike. Drink good beer."
- Fat Tire Amber Ale

12/15/09

if you have those credentials, just network and sharpen your interview skills. you can probably land a bb ibd gig at the middle tier bbs.

then again, i've seen kids royally mess it up with those credentials. it can go both ways.

12/15/09

You don't "need" a 3.7 to get an interview at Goldman Sachs. But as was said above, these banks are still looking for some serious talent and are quite selective.

12/15/09

This Piper/Jeffires bashing is really starting to get old. Its not funny anymore.

12/15/09

you're wrong, it's closer to a 3.8-3.9, 3.7 is WAY too low, stop smokin'.

=========================================
We are excited to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria

12/15/09

4.0 or bust man.
however Accenture may be a good alternative.

12/15/09

agree with chimpb. They are still very selective. It's investment banking after all, and Jef and Piper are by no means bad firms.

12/15/09

i always wonder why kids with bb offers interview with lower tier boutiques where the shittiest group at the bb ibd is still better than the best group at such a boutique...

for those kids who got bb offers yet got rejected from lower tier boutiques... these boutiques don't want to give out offers to super qualified candidates who already have offers outstanding from better shops. they want to give it out to kids that the boutique knows has the highest change of taking em.

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12/15/09

When the people I know and myself interviewed with these places we did not yet have BB offers so that argument is largely non-applicable Still, what those boutique mm's eat up is how you want small deal teams with lots of senior banker and client interaction. I would imagine that saying "yeah, I have an offer at JPM but would rather work at Piper because I want to be closer to deals and take on responsibility. From what I hear analysts here interact directly with clients. At JPM you can't interact with clients until you are a 3rd year associate. etc etc" would be very effective. As to the people I met at the superday who had previous summers at bulges, I assumed they didn't get offers.

12/15/09

^ i work at a boutique and no one would believe that shit, trust me everyone here wants to go to a larger bank

12/15/09

boutqiuebank4life-

when you talk about "boutiques," are you talking about BX,Greenhill type in SF or an unknown boutique? Or is it MM like TWP or Jefferies?

I think that would make a huge difference. Of course everyone wants to go from unknown to BB, but I personally know a lot MM guys that like where they are and also received a couple offers from top BB shops.

12/15/09

cmon man. bx, ghl, evr, moco, laz are cream of the crops. his comment was prob for mm lower tier boutiques.

if you're in those "boutiques" i mentioned and you want to move to a larger bank... i'm guessing culture just doesn't fit? want to see deals that you worked on in the front page of the journal? etc... can't be the comp since they're so similar... right?

12/15/09

on the table..../would you rather

BB (GS/MS) prime brokerage or Jefferies IB Generalist FT analyst

at the BB superday I was left with the impression that there would be opportunities to get into a Cap Intro role

12/15/09

the people on this forum that bash and rank banks do it because they're tired jerking off to their usual beastiality porn. they are insecure about their ego and feel that boosting it on an online forum will finally give them power.

they are NOT in GS/MS/BX/LAZ/GHL etc; instead they tend to fall in the 'made the cut for BB but would still love to suck goldman's cock' category. and because their jaw is tired, they would like for someone to suck theirs. To distinguish themselves from the rest, they look to their left and their right and try to find something wrong with the 'other' BB or that MM or that non-elite boutique. Otherwise, they'd be lost in the crowd of the non-elites.

12/15/09

I hardly understand why people on WSO keep on bashing Jef & Piper and other boutiques. Honestly, I don't know people from those boutiques, but it doesn't mean there are bullshit.

Many people here are acting as if it was the easiest thing on Earth to get a SA position at a BB. Some people may be interested in smaller structures and why not about the SME market. Is it a shame? It don't think so. Indeed, M&A are dealing with bluechips like Pfizer or BP, but on the other hand real economy is based above all on small and mid capitalised companies, whether you like it or not.

Whatever a few people may say, it remains IB and IB is pretty selective, even though it varies from a boutique to another. That's not GS/JPM/MS or burst. IB is, in my view, a question of will to interact with certain people in a certain environment. If you'are really interested in IB, you will able to climb the ladder, If you think IB is only a rite of passage before getting something which sounds to you more interesting, if think you're tackling the issue with the wrong point of view.

In reply to SAC
12/15/09

This Piper/Jeffires bashing is really starting to get old. Its not funny anymore.

I agree, did everyone forget how bad things have been the past year? Things are just starting to get better as far as hiring is concerned. People bash Piper b/c it is based in Minneapolis (which I wouldn't work in that office) and I don't understand the Jefferies thing. Its a solid shop, yes its not JPM/GS/MS but not everyone either wants or gets those offers. Someone also may want to feel like more of a contributor, not the get lost in the crowd type of thing.

12/15/09

I think when people talk about boutiques here it really means the 2nd tier of well known banks below the bulge bracket. There are literally hundreds of investment banks in this country. I could be wrong, but for the purposes of our discussions here, "regional unknown lower middle market investment bank" does NOT equal "boutique." After all, the word boutique is just a euphemism for "really frickin small." To me, there are three levels: BBs, MMs (aka boutiques on this board), and then the literally hundreds of shops just hustling for a deal. Only the first two levels are really discussed here.

12/15/09

Comando and bigmonkey 31 definitely made my day. I still don't understand why people keep bashing IB Jefferies or other MMs for that matter..... it is a solid shop and you definitely get more experience and responsibility starting out. As camondo was saying you are looking it from the wrong point of view. We are talking about our careers here, where solid learning experiences + hardwork = going up the corporate ladder. If you are so insecure about yourself and your ability to succeed and you need a "BB approved" stamp on your forehead, then go ahead and keep deluding yourself into a perpetual life of sucking up and running the rat race. My hat goes down for the guy who works his ass off wherever he is, climbs up and makes it BIG.
In the GRAND scheme of things we are all monkeys working to make someone else rich, our $100+k salary is peanuts compared to all the money that goes into the CEO's, blockholders, and the bank's pocket. That's the REAL POWER there. Looking at the big power picture, whether we're working at GS or Jefferies, we're still monkeys, shop means squat.

12/15/09

unfortunately we can't ban people just for being immature -- my advice is just to ignore the people that bash various ibanks repeatedly. There is a reason they aren't Certified Users. Most of them don't work in IB and couldn't get a job at the shops they bash.

-Patrick

In reply to chimpb
12/15/09
chimpb:

The 3.7 ivy number is off, there are tons of kids at bb's with 3.5s...some boutiques are more selective wrt gpa though.

But the pipers, jefferies and cowens of the world are not much less selective than any BB. A superday I had at one of these firms had kids from wharton and stern with two summers of BB experience. Most analysts at these places aren't shlubs either; more come from nontargets but they're generally bright and from good schools. The offer spots to kids at superday ratio is also comparable to bulges at around 10-20%. I know a number of people (myself included) who received multiple offers at top BBs and were put on hold or rejected from these middle market guys. What most people on this board who haven't gone through recruiting (and some fools who have) don't realize is that interviews are mostly about fit. Which means they're random. Which means getting a job at one of these places is still hard. And it should be, these jobs still pay 100k out of undergrad and let you work on multimillion dollar transactions. The XTO deal shows that Jefferies can work on a blockbuster deal as well. Cowen worked on a number of blockbuster healthcare deals a couple of years ago (Huntsman being a notable one). The media group at PJC also does some really cool deals (albeit mostly with an EV < 1bln).

You might make slightly less money at one of these places (maybe work a little less), bind your own pitchbooks, have little shot at a megafund, and give kids on wso without a job less of a hardon, but you still have a good job.

Great post, and the final sentence down there is perfect. I'd love to see how many of the "DOn't Work at Piper or Jaffrays! Those places r sht!" kids on here are college sophomores who are working PWM at Dad's shop this summer.

12/15/09

The other thing that annoys me slightly is the obsession with target schools - rather the instant contempt rained down upon you if you went to a state school. Perhaps this is true on the east coast, but many of the smartest people in the midwest go to state schools while only some leave home to go to ivies. It's just not seen as that big a deal out here in Chicago. Perhaps that's because by and large the state schools out east are garbage compared to the Big Ten schools. So it's ivy or bust for them. But again, that just isn't the case out here - most state universities out here are top notch institutions (Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, etc.). People always say - "all their MDs went to state schools" or whatever when it comes to banks in the midwest - I'm like damn right they did, and probably just as smart as anyone who went to a "target." Full disclosure: Chicago kid, went to Dartmouth college, work at MM in Chicago.

12/15/09

Dartmouth is a target...maybe semi at best

In reply to expresstrain56
12/15/09

You are well endowed...maybe semi at best.

Seriously, now that you put him in his place...we'll all be waiting for more of your wisdom.

12/15/09

Just to clear something up mentioned above: Most CEOs and senior management teams don't make nearly what you think they do. At a typical middle market firm with a few hundred million of revenue, the CEO will pull in a salary of $200 - $400k. Bonus potential might be about 50% of base, and that's if the company hits all its objectives. CFOs frequently make significantly less than that. The real money comes from having an ownership stake.

Yes, the CEOs of the "Headline" companies make millions, but these folks are very limited in number compared to the rest of America / the world.

CompBanker

12/15/09

not a target? Are you serious????

12/23/09

So how selective is Jefferies/Piper? Jefferies was #8 or so most selective in Vault; I take those rankings with a grain of salt but it still reflects some degree of truth. Plus is 3.7 / Ivy the cutoff for interviewing with these firms?

12/23/09

Why would you ask a question and then answer your own question with sources like Vault. People already answered your question multiple times. No a 3.7 Ivy is not the cutoff, heck I know 3.4 nontargets who got offers at BB's. Are you dense or something? I don't see you getting any offers with your lack of reading comprehension and basic logic that any 10 year old would have from reading this thread.

Sorry to be harsh but I hate people that ask questions and waste space with no intention of reading the helpful responses like chimpb's. You just waste everyone's time.

Finally, a "target" is simply a school that is recruited at by the banks for IBD roles. This may mean that MIT is not a target in some cases, but Baruch is a target for JPM IBD. Many large state schools like Ross, McCombs, McIntire, UNC, etc. are considered targets while some higher ranked privates are not considered targets (JHU, Northwestern, Caltech, etc.)

12/23/09

I can't speak about Piper Jaffray, but Jefferies is VERY selective. I say this from first hand experience and from having met kids who have gone on to work there. The selectivity to get into a top BB is absurdly selective and from a friend at GS "half of the kids get there through connections." That leaves so many limited slots.

I go to a top-target and at our Barclays/Lehman presentation the HR lady said that she receives about 900 resumes for IBD/S&T spots. (Remember, this isn't even GS/MS/JPM). Out of that number, there are 28 interviews for IBD and 28 interviews for S&T. Out of that number only 5-7 people will get offers in each dept. Do you not think the other 20+ people who got the interviews are qualified? Sure, they may end up at Jefferies or another place, but in reality it's an f'in crapshoot.

I agree that the people that bash places on this site probably ended up at a lower tier BB or have no IBD experience whatsoever, and think that they can make themselves feel better by bashing on lower tier places.

I have so many friends that would die to get an investment banking job at all. Yes, they would be ecstatic to get a job at Jefferies. This, while somewhat a testament to the hiring environment we live in, shows how selective the field of IB is altogether.

12/23/09

Despite all my jokes, everyone knows IBD as an industry is hard to break into and basically a crapshoot. I figured everyone already knew this. The reason bankers make fun of firms, in my "real life" experience, is mostly for fun and its not anything serious.

We already know we broke into probably the hardest industry and in the end we're doing the same bitchwork and grueling shit that everyone else does. Poking fun at ourselves is the only reprieve we have. The college/HS kids who don't understand this tongue-in-cheek attitude among bankers tend to think its serious and that PJC is the worst choice ever. Please try to get an offer first if you don't have one, that's all I have to say. Understand that even top targets have kids that strike out with high gpa's and would give an arm to work at PJC. Obviously though if a firm is shady like FTP then you should do some research, but in almost 99% of cases, IBD > any other job out there, including consulting and the usual random stuff college kids go into.

PS: but seriously don't ever quote vault

12/24/09

p.s - Dartmouth is definitely a target at the BB's ... you do know that at least 5% of the partners at GS went to Dartmouth (Paulson went to Dartmouth as well)

12/24/09

people seem to find jefferies as decent, and their healthcare is above the firm as a whole, but what about piper jaffray? How selective is it, what is the interview process like, did anyone here ever interview? What kind of kids they hire and stuff?

In reply to lindamas
12/24/09
fembotma:

people seem to find jefferies as decent, and their healthcare is above the firm as a whole, but what about piper jaffray? How selective is it, what is the interview process like, did anyone here ever interview? What kind of kids they hire and stuff?

It's just like any other bank on the street. They may take more kids from state schools, but that's only because they're trying to get the best in class there vs. second- and third-tier guys from the Ivies. They absolutely have kids from targets, but the class composition is certainly skewed toward non-targets as compared to a GS or MS. Nonetheless, their interview process is going to be the same, and working there is going to be very similar to working at a BB - it's a large MM bank, so the only real difference is going to be the type of deals they go after.

12/24/09

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