4/3/07

This is for IBD, not markets, and by "prestige" I mean where graduates seem to want to work most.

1. GS/MS
2. ML/JPM/LEH
3. Laz/Roths
4. Citi/UBS
5. CS/DB
6. ABN/Barclays/Bear
7. BNP/DrKW/HSBC/RBS

Comments (38)

4/3/07

no one wants to work at rothschild. i would rank it below db. lehman ibd in europe isn't strong but i guess graduates do tend to like the lehman brand.

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4/3/07

uhhhh, that seems pretty wrong. From what I have heard, everyone is busting their balls to work for DB Europe

4/3/07

This is for IBD, Salam. Tallon I thought Roths had quite a reputation with the old school, they seem to be quite a good M&A house along with Lazard. I would never fit with the culture though.

4/3/07

Those rankings for IBD look pretty messed up to me, also. I'd go more with:
1) GS
2) MS/Laz/Rothschild
3) DB/JPM
4) ML/Citi/CS/UBS
5) Lehman/Barclays/HSBC
etc.

I'd say it's arguable that Lazard and Rothschild are more desirable than GS..depends on the person. Rothschild, although fairly weak in the US, is a European powerhouse. No one wants to work for ML/JPM/LEH over them, except maybe someone hoping to transfer to the US after 2 years. Also, Lehman in Europe sucks. It's nowhere near as good in EU as it is in the US. Also, Barclays in EU is much better than in US..I'd say it could be moved up into category 4 in the above group even.

4/3/07

Dav3100 i agree on Laz/Roths, I know people who turn down GS/MS for them. I would never put Lehman that far down, their brand equity is strong. Though it does seem like I was wrong on DB. From reading this forum it seems like there is much more emphasis on getting an MBA stateside than in europe...my closest mates in banking went straight from analyst to associate.

4/3/07

No offense dav3100 but you aren't even in europe.

Before I start I just to reiterate that this thread is based on 'where graduates seem to want to work'.

In oxbridge/lse people respect lazard but there is very little respect for roths.

People respect db capital markets but there less respect for db ibd - its prestige is below its league tables rank as its been very high in the uk and europe league tables recently.

Conversely the prestige of lehman ibd is well above its league table position. In general oxbridge/lse students place a premium on BB status.

For students at oxbridge/lse the ranking goes something like this:

1.GS/MS
----------
2.ML/LAZ/JPM
3.CITI/LEH
4.UBS/CS
5.DB/ROTH
----------
6.DrKW/ABN/BEAR/HSBC

4/3/07
4/3/07

I wonder why DB prestige is not higher given its performance lately. Tallon, i agree with your assessment other than roths. The negativity might be due to the old school reputation, but few people i know deny the quality there.

BofA...not as highly regarded as UBS/CITI and the rest. I would place BofA with barclays(which is on the rise)/bear, though definitely above HSBC. student22, are you oxbridge/lse?

4/3/07

How could you not want to work for Rothschild London when they rank 2nd in M&A league tables for the UK, France, and a few other EU's? Their restructuring practice is also top-notch.

In reply to tallon123
4/3/07

so if i wanna focus on M&A or Lev Fin., will it be a better choice to stay in Laz rather than the other two BBs in category 2?

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4/3/07

i agree, Rothschild is a great place but it students at oxbridge/lse seem to like the 'safety' of a BB - most students will even turn down Greenhill for GS/MS.

I would place BofA in the upper end of bucket.

4/3/07

At my uni the rankings are something along these lines

1-GS
2-MS-Laz-Greenhill
3-Citi-UBS-DB-JPM
4-CS-Roth-Lehman

BarCap
BoA
HSBC, Bear
ABN Dresdner ...

4/4/07

Well..at my uni or region atleast the rankings go

1- GS/MS/UBS or more prominently UBS recently
2- DB/Citi
3- CS/ABN/Barc
4- LEH/ HSBC/ BnP

4/4/07

small potatoe, I think your list is the most accurate so far, particularly in sticking UBS and DB much further up the list. I'd stick JPM and ML in position 2 as well.

I personally don't see why people are placing Lehman so high, nobody I know was in the slight bit interested in them vs other banks, and I certainly don't follow the BB argument as we are talking about Europe. As for Lazard, Rothschild, etc, tallon123 is definately right in saying most people would choose a BB over them when it came to a final decision (I for one did).

student22 is neither oxbridge or lse, at least I sincerely hope they don't let in people who make grammatical mistakes like 5 persons (another of his posts).

In reply to Oconnor
4/4/07

Oconnor:

student22 is neither oxbridge or lse, at least I sincerely hope they don't let in people who make grammatical mistakes like 5 persons (another of his posts).

Neither Oxbridge NOR LSE. Nothing worse than criticizing someone's grammar while making another grammatical mistake! Although I must admit Student22's was far more flagrant than yours.

4/4/07

Fair enough :) I'm sure there are tonnes of mistakes throughout my posts as I don't pay too much attention when posting on the net. My point was that the 5 persons mistake is one nobody with a decent grasp of English would ever make.

4/4/07

My knowledge of European Bank prestige is very limited, so forgive me if this seems like a dumb question. It seems you are only talking about schools in England. Does this also mean that you're only talking about prestige in England/London or is the prestige the same throughout Europe?

4/4/07

A lot of European IBD is based in London, there are only smallish regional offices in other European cities (except for the HQs of non-US/UK banks).

So a) this has a strong "weighting" effect on prestige at unis throughout Europe, b) a lot of european students want to do IB in London for the same reasons americans want NY.

Banks will also more sought after with their home country students than other europeans of course.

4/4/07

small potatoe your list has several shortcomings:

1) as already noted it excludes JPM and ML
2) UBS is placed in the same tier as GS, MS - UBS is most definitely nowhere near these other two banks
3) ABN>LEH lol!!!
4) Barcap is not respected for IBD. Yes its capital markets is good, but from what I've heard they have an extremely limited corp fin practice.

4/4/07

http://www.jpmorgancazenove.com/code/league/mamark...

I know its not the same as "Prestige" as what you yanks use. But basically London has the square mile because all the major and minor banks are within it.

No one actually gives a rats shit if you are MS or JPM. GS is the only company that carries any weight and even then its still very minor.

In reply to runtothehills
4/4/07

runtothehills:

No one actually gives a rats shit if you are MS or JPM. GS is the only company that carries any weight and even then its still very minor.

At my uni (think oxbridge/LSE), GS/MS are definitely in a higher tier than the rest of the "bulge bracket," though GS has an edge. I think in general though any BB is well respected and brits/europeans are less obsessed with GS.

4/4/07
4/4/07

Because Greenhill is very unknown in the Europe..

Lazard is good in France but not that strong on a global level.. in Europe I think these are the rankings for IBD!-->

1. GS
.
.
.
.
.
.
2. MS
3. ML
4. JPM/UBS/Citi
5. DB/LEH/Lazard/CS
6. Dresdner/Barclays/Bear Sterns/BoA/Rothchild
7. RBS/ABN/Santander/BNP Parisbas/HSBC

4/4/07

lol what a fucking tool. student22 you clearly know next to nothing about banking, "Lazard is only good in France." Good job with the GS trolling.

In reply to ivybanker
4/4/07

Lazard often ranks 10-15 in the global league tables which means less deal flow, less experience, less prestigious exit opportunities to pe/hf
most people i know turned down lazard for gs/ms/ml/jpm/ubs/citi

4/4/07

apart from the idolization of GS and missing out CS student22's actual list is about right.

In reply to tallon123
4/4/07
4/4/07

Lazard has fewer analysts, so dealflow/person is relatively high. My understanding is that Lazard's exit opportunities are very good, especially with regards to business school. Student22 your rankings are good, except you really do idolise GS to an extreme.

In reply to student22
4/4/07

I disagree completly with dresdner on an equal level with Rothschild. at my uni they are in a completely different league

4/4/07

everybody has their own opinions and each bank has something going for it. If you're really smart, really hard working, and really good, you will be successful in the long run whether you start at Lazard or Lehman or Goldman Sachs.

Banking is a tough field to get into. Even if you do everything right, you still might not get an offer at a certain bank because you don't "gel" with the interviewer. So before you get all wound up with this kind of "I would work for Merrill Lynch, but I wouldn't work for Rothschild" crap. JUST GET YOUR FOOT IN THE DOOR SOMEWHERE...who cares if it's HSBC or BofA.

It's ok to have goals and targets, but it's not the end of the world if you don't work at Goldman Sachs. I know plenty of people in great PE and HF gigs out of HSBC, BofA, and the like.

There's variation in that certain groups might be really, really strong at bank with "lower prestige"...it happens. There are plenty of non-prestige factors that you could argue are more important in choosing the right place for you.

I know at 20 years old, your analyst job seems like everything to you (I was the same way). It's something tangible and concrete that you can work towards. However, none of you really know what you want 20 years from now, so it's hard to work towards.

There's a long term, big picture that one day you will see. And you will realize that your first job, while important, is not NEARLY as significant as you are all worrying about.

Get the best job you can (even if it is not banking), work as hard as you can, learn as much as you, network as much as you can, stay ambitious, and I promise you, you will be fine.

4/4/07
In reply to tallon123
4/4/07

tallon123:
small potatoe your list has several shortcomings:

1) as already noted it excludes JPM and ML
2) UBS is placed in the same tier as GS, MS - UBS is most definitely nowhere near these other two banks
3) ABN>LEH lol!!!
4) Barcap is not respected for IBD. Yes its capital markets is good, but from what I've heard they have an extremely limited corp fin practice.

yeah JP and ML slipped my mind and should be in Tier 2.

In regards to my shortcomings, I guess you didn't read properly, I said my 'uni or REGION' ...so maybe this would help clarify my stance more.

4/4/07

Was I really the only one that really, really wanted BofA? Hehe. Good thing I didn't start reading IB forums until after I got my job.

If you're 18,19,20,21,22, whatever......make up your own mind about where YOU want to be. Might make it just that much easier to convince the interviewer that it's the place for you.

4/4/07

True, try to achieve your goal!

4/4/07

Definately true about convincing the interviewer, there was a direct correlation between where I got offers and the places I wanted to work vs the ones I put down because they were part of the BB/to hedge my bets. At the time I didn't realise but thinking back my desire to work at certain places shone through much more as it was genuine.

4/4/07

My experience was very similar to Oconnor, got offered everywhere I wanted to work, rejected at the places that I was not keen on working for.

I hear americans have only interviews, and not full assessment centres? It seems too subjective that way.

In reply to dav3100
4/4/07

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In reply to BABanker
4/4/07

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