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One thing that's very disheartening to read on this forum is the bias against kids from targets. Apparently, kids from targets just *happened* to be privileged enough to get into a good school while kids from non-targets unfairly get screwed. I'm sorry, but when did working hard in high school and middle school become "privileged"? I know some outstanding kids at non-targets and mediocre kids at targets, but the kids here who attack targets on here honestly sound like OWS. 99% of the spots in banking are filled with 1% of schools!!!!!!

Listen: If I'm looking at Harvard 3.6 Poli Sci with no real internships, and a Non-Target 3.6 Finance with boutique IBD internships, I'm taking the former ALL DAY (assuming that he's sociable, knows what IBD is, etc.). Why? Because I know that Harvard kid was motivated enough to spend 4 years in high school working his ass off, getting 2300+ SATs and 3.9+ GPAs and leading sports teams while the Non-Target kid made some cold-calls to random boutiques and got lucky. Yes, you can argue the whole "can't afford Harvard" or "rich parents made donations" angle (and I ABSOLUTELY sympathize with the kids who couldn't afford to go to Stern or GTown or some other low-financial aid school), but generally speaking, most targets are actually incredibly generous with financial aid and development cases make up a tiny portion of the population (and those kids get hooked up anyway). In fact coming from a poor background helps you get into Harvard.

Just my rant. To quote someone from this forum, "it's not a silver spoon if you've earned it." I'm not bashing non-target kids in anyway (the ones I've met in banking are terrific), just the ones who paint the Ivies with the same broad stroke.

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Comments (424)

  • Bluedevils1278's picture

    Well spoken and very true. I could not agree more.

    The top kid from University of Iowa will surely beat the laziest kid from Harvard/Yale/Princeton, but I'd take a middle-of-the-pack kid from Ivy league over a 3.8 kid from non-target every day of the week.

  • Flake's picture

    I'm a non-target and I have a ton of respect for people who attended target schools. Even when I was working in a BO type of role, I knew I got what I deserved and I also knew that from that point on I would have to work twice as hard to make up for all of the bullshitting I did in school. I should've worked harder in HS, I should have scored higher on my SATs, I should have applied and gotten into better colleges, but I didn't...I was average at best, so why bitch about it?

    The whole "can't afford Harvard" shit is crap. There are plenty of shitty schools out there that cost 35-40k+ a year and kids still go there and still complain about it like god hates them or something...Fuck that.

    Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

  • Sexy_Like_Enrique's picture

    There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

  • jaschen27's picture

    firefighter wrote:
    One thing that's very disheartening to read on this forum is the bias against kids from targets. Apparently, kids from targets just *happened* to be privileged enough to get into a good school while kids from non-targets unfairly get screwed. I'm sorry, but when did working hard in high school and middle school become "privileged"? I know some outstanding kids at non-targets and mediocre kids at targets, but the kids here who attack targets on here honestly sound like OWS. 99% of the spots in banking are filled with 1% of schools!!!!!!

    Listen: If I'm looking at Harvard 3.6 Poli Sci with no real internships, and a Non-Target 3.6 Finance with boutique IBD internships, I'm taking the former ALL DAY (assuming that he's sociable, knows what IBD is, etc.). Why? Because I know that Harvard kid was motivated enough to spend 4 years in high school working his ass off, getting 2300+ SATs and 3.9+ GPAs and leading sports teams while the Non-Target kid made some cold-calls to random boutiques and got lucky. Yes, you can argue the whole "can't afford Harvard" or "rich parents made donations" angle (and I ABSOLUTELY sympathize with the kids who couldn't afford to go to Stern or GTown or some other low-financial aid school), but generally speaking, most targets are actually incredibly generous with financial aid and development cases make up a tiny portion of the population (and those kids get hooked up anyway). In fact coming from a poor background helps you get into Harvard.

    Just my rant. To quote someone from this forum, "it's not a silver spoon if you've earned it." I'm not bashing non-target kids in anyway (the ones I've met in banking are terrific), just the ones who paint the Ivies with the same broad stroke.

    Take everything you read on this website with a grain of salt. You'd think half of the people on this board are terminally ill by the constant complaining

  • In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
    Flake's picture

    Sexy_Like_Enrique wrote:
    There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

    Sounds like a bitter asshole.

    Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

  • In reply to Flake
    jaschen27's picture

    Flake wrote:
    I'm a non-target and I have a ton of respect for people who attended target schools. Even when I was working in a BO type of role, I knew I got what I deserved and I also knew that from that point on I would have to work twice as hard to make up for all of the bullshitting I did in school. I should've worked harder in HS, I should have scored higher on my SATs, I should have applied and gotten into better colleges, but I didn't...I was average at best, so why bitch about it?

    The whole "can't afford Harvard" shit is crap. There are plenty of shitty schools out there that cost 35-40k+ a year and kids still go there and still complain about it like god hates them or something...Fuck that.

    Not to point this finger at you, because you do seem like a pretty smart guy, but there is way too much shoulda, coulda, woulda on this forum in general

  • In reply to jaschen27
    Flake's picture

    jaschen27 wrote:
    Flake wrote:
    I'm a non-target and I have a ton of respect for people who attended target schools. Even when I was working in a BO type of role, I knew I got what I deserved and I also knew that from that point on I would have to work twice as hard to make up for all of the bullshitting I did in school. I should've worked harder in HS, I should have scored higher on my SATs, I should have applied and gotten into better colleges, but I didn't...I was average at best, so why bitch about it?

    The whole "can't afford Harvard" shit is crap. There are plenty of shitty schools out there that cost 35-40k+ a year and kids still go there and still complain about it like god hates them or something...Fuck that.

    Not to point this finger at you, because you do seem like a pretty smart guy, but there is way too much shoulda, coulda, woulda on this forum in general

    Agreed.

    Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

  • In reply to Flake
    Sexy_Like_Enrique's picture

    Flake wrote:
    Sexy_Like_Enrique wrote:
    There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

    Sounds like a bitter asshole.

    I have a lot of respect for that guy, he's a smart guy that gives a lot of sound advice on this forum and he is one of the top posters on this forum.

    However, he has the biggest chip on his shoulder against Ivies for some reason.

  • In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
    seedy underbelly's picture

    Sexy_Like_Enrique wrote:
    There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

    illini?

  • Thurnis Haley's picture

    I don't judge people based on the school they attended (unless it's WVU). To assume that somebody had a 3.9 GPA, 2300+ SAT, and "led sports teams" (lol what?) in high school in order to get into Harvard is just plain retarded. And I admit I'm somewhat bitter over my education, but really, that's a fucking stupid assumption not grounded in reality. People get into top schools for many different reasons.

  • In reply to seedy underbelly
    Sexy_Like_Enrique's picture

    seedy underbelly wrote:
    Sexy_Like_Enrique wrote:
    There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

    illini?

    Yes. Just go read the thread:

    http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/lowest-ranke...

    page 6-7.

    His viewpoint is that all it takes to get into Harvard is to be born under high-achieving parents, and it is the work of those pushy parents that get a kid into Harvard, not the kid's own hard work and intellect. Hence, just because a kid goes to Harvard, that in and out of itself doesn't signal the kid's intellect, hard work, or whatever, but it just tells employers that this kid comes from an elite family background.

    As much as I respect illini, I get really pissed when I encounter ridiculous viewpoints such as this.

  • jaschen27's picture

    Every kid i know who went to a top 5 school earned every bit of it in high school. How many fucking "elite families" do there have to be to populate the ranks of the ivy league?

  • firefighter's picture

    Just a caveat: to those who say that not everyone who got into an Ivy earned it and not everyone who could have gone Ivy went, that's what the SAT/high school sections are for. If I see that you had a 4.0 in HS and good SATs but went to a non-target, I'll basically give you the benefit of the doubt as if you actually went to an Ivy

  • In reply to jaschen27
    Sexy_Like_Enrique's picture

    jaschen27 wrote:
    Every kid i know who went to a top 5 school earned every bit of it in high school. How many fucking "elite families" do there have to be to populate the ranks of the ivy league?

    Yes. Unless you are a Bush or a Kennedy, you aren't getting into Harvard just because of who your daddy is. This is a irrefutable fact.

    Actually, coming from a non-elite family background may help you get into Harvard, ironically. Being an impoverished URM from inner-city region will make it 100 times easier to get into Harvard compared to a talented gunner White or Asian guy. Sad, but true.

  • In reply to firefighter
    jaschen27's picture

    firefighter wrote:
    Just a caveat: to those who say that not everyone who got into an Ivy earned it and not everyone who could have gone Ivy went, that's what the SAT/high school sections are for. If I see that you had a 4.0 in HS and good SATs but went to a non-target, I'll basically give you the benefit of the doubt as if you actually went to an Ivy

    Where are these sections you're talking about?

  • ProspectiveMonkey's picture

    I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

    These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

    Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

    Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

    You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

    Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

  • whatwhatwhat's picture

    parents are such a big factor in getting into any good college. if you had shitty parents that didn't give a fuck about you and grew up in a shitty neighborhood with shitty schools, you probably aren't getting into any college at all. having overachieving parents that forced you into extracurriculars, made you go to an SAT tutor, and made sure you did your homework, will give you such a great advantage over anyone else. i strongly believe in nurture over nature for this.

  • In reply to whatwhatwhat
    firefighter's picture

    whatwhatwhat wrote:
    parents are such a big factor in getting into any good college. if you had shitty parents that didn't give a fuck about you and grew up in a shitty neighborhood with shitty schools, you probably aren't getting into any college at all.

    You're right, and of course I'll consider where the kid came from, etc. when thinking about resume selections. If dude went to Andover and ended up at a non-target, it's a much different story than a kid from North Dakota who ended up at a Big 10. Information isn't perfect unfortunately, and so we'll use school as a screen and take kids from then.

  • In reply to ProspectiveMonkey
    seedy underbelly's picture

    ProspectiveMonkey wrote:
    I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

    These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

    Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

    Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

    You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

    Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

    Are you retarded?

    So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

  • In reply to ProspectiveMonkey
    Sexy_Like_Enrique's picture

    ProspectiveMonkey wrote:
    I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

    These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

    Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

    Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

    You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

    Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

    http://admissions.cornell.edu/

    From Cornell, 66% of kids come from public high schools, 18% come from private, and 16% from home school. I am too lazy to check on Harvard stats, but my guess is they're similar.

    Clearly, most of kids at an Ivy school come from non-private high school.

    My take on this is that sure, having an elite parents would work to your advantage, but it balances out: Asians or whites (or Jews) have to overcome much higher admissions hurdle standards to get into top colleges than many of poor URM kids, who may not have pushy or elite parents.

    In other words, you need to compete against others from similar backgrounds as you, and stand out from that crowd, to get into Harvard. If you are a 2300 SAT scorer and Asian or Jewish, you are competing against hundreds of other gunner Asians or Jewish kids with very elite or pushy parents to get in, and you aren't competing against those poor black kids whose parents don't give a fuck about their kids' education.

    Bottom line is this - no matter how 'elite' or pushy your parents are, you obviously need the drive, diligence, and due intelligence to get into top colleges unless you are a Bush or a Kennedy. Individual merit trumps familial pedigree in this equation, by far.

    Lastly, the vast majority of kids at Ivies get substantial financial aid, implying that majority of kids at Ivies don't come from money.

  • In reply to seedy underbelly
    Sexy_Like_Enrique's picture

    seedy underbelly wrote:
    ProspectiveMonkey wrote:
    I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

    These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

    Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

    Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

    You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

    Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

    Are you retarded?

    So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

    Seedy, for once, I 100% agree with you.

    How does going to a private school = acceptance letter to Harvard??!!

    If anything, if you go to an elite prep school, you are living AWAY from your 'elite' parents, so you are more on your own to get your shit done.

  • U Accrete Me's picture

    firefighter wrote:
    ...while the Non-Target kid made some cold-calls to random boutiques and got lucky.

    .
    Just to establish perspective, I am a non-target. I agree with your post and think that target kids get shat on way too often in this forum. However, don’t you dare belittle the process of getting in from a non-target. I can’t tell you how many hours I spent building a list of contacts over a 2-3 year period, how I had to travel back a forth from school 6 hours at a time for a 30 minute lunch with some rando who perhaps could get my resume to the right person. I had to bust my hump like a slave working for nothing for an entire summer just to get a little experience. (Actually paying to work because I had to pay for transportation).Now that may not be the typical nontarget story but it certainly highlights the painstaking efforts many of these kids take to get their resumes in front of a banker. Also, and remember this ..."The harder you work, the LUCKIER you become"

  • In reply to U Accrete Me
    Sexy_Like_Enrique's picture

    U Accrete Me wrote:
    firefighter wrote:
    ...while the Non-Target kid made some cold-calls to random boutiques and got lucky.

    .
    Just to establish perspective, I am a non-target. I agree with your post and think that target kids get shat on way too often in this forum. However, don’t you dare belittle the process of getting in from a non-target. I can’t tell you how many hours I spent building a list of contacts over a 2-3 year period, how I had to travel back a forth from school 6 hours at a time for a 30 minute lunch with some rando who perhaps could get my resume to the right person. I had to bust my hump like a slave working for nothing for an entire summer just to get a little experience. (Actually paying to work because I had to pay for transportation).Now that may not be the typical nontarget story but it certainly highlights the painstaking efforts many of these kids take to get their resumes in front of a banker. Also, and remember this ..."The harder you work, the LUCKIER you become"

    I actually have more respect for non-target kids who broke into IB than the target kids. It shows your passion, dedication, and preparation.

    However, one thing that may make your life easier: if you are at non-target but want a shot at banking OCR, just transfer to a target or semi-target school.

    Getting into HYP as a transfer is impossible, but schools like Indiana, UNC, U Michigan, UVA, UCLA, Northwestern, UIUC, Cornell, Boston College, or Duke. These schools get pretty decent OCR from banks, yet they're far from being impossible to get into as a transfer if you have competitive stats.

    Indiana, in particular, is a very easy school to get into, yet they have a decent placement record into IB. (they have an IB workshop from which IB placement success is very high)

  • In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
    seedy underbelly's picture

    Sexy_Like_Enrique wrote:
    seedy underbelly wrote:
    ProspectiveMonkey wrote:
    I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

    These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

    Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

    Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

    You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

    Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

    Are you retarded?

    So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

    Seedy, for once, I 100% agree with you.

    How does going to a private school = acceptance letter to Harvard??!!

    If anything, if you go to an elite prep school, you are living AWAY from your 'elite' parents, so you are more on your own to get your shit done.

    There are only 5, maximum 6, elite schools in the US where being a student gives one an advantage in getting in. But even there the competition is fucking insane. Legacies, athletes, rich-kids whose parents can donate a building mixed with about 30% of middle-class, determined-as-hell kids. The Andover and Deerfield kids just utterly dominate the academics and social scene here, because they have had to compete so rigorously just to get in even from their "privileged" high schools.

    And, lastly, yes I agree that parents play a massive role in shaping your ambitions and your achievements. But that isn't an excuse for your failures. my parents to this day still don't know what the Ivy League is or what the SATs are, or anything. They're just glad the school is generous enough for them to be paying nothing. Yet, I wanted to go to an Ivy, so I stuck to my goals. As did the majority of kids at my Ivy. So, stop making excuses. Some just aren't smart/determined enough.

  • JustADude's picture

    Completely agree with OP...the majority of students at targets worked their ass off all their life and are able to attend a top institution without any financial support from their parents because they'ved earned it.

  • In reply to seedy underbelly
    Sexy_Like_Enrique's picture

    seedy underbelly wrote:
    Sexy_Like_Enrique wrote:
    seedy underbelly wrote:
    ProspectiveMonkey wrote:
    I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

    These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

    Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

    Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

    You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

    Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

    Are you retarded?

    So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

    Seedy, for once, I 100% agree with you.

    How does going to a private school = acceptance letter to Harvard??!!

    If anything, if you go to an elite prep school, you are living AWAY from your 'elite' parents, so you are more on your own to get your shit done.

    There are only 5, maximum 6, elite schools in the US where being a student gives one an advantage in getting in. But even there the competition is fucking insane. Legacies, athletes, rich-kids whose parents can donate a building mixed with about 30% of middle-class, determined-as-hell kids. The Andover and Deerfield kids just utterly dominate the academics and social scene here, because they have had to compete so rigorously just to get in even from their "privileged" high schools.

    And, lastly, yes I agree that parents play a massive role in shaping your ambitions and your achievements. But that isn't an excuse for your failures. my parents to this day still don't know what the Ivy League is or what the SATs are, or anything. They're just glad the school is generous enough for them to be paying nothing. Yet, I wanted to go to an Ivy, so I stuck to my goals. As did the majority of kids at my Ivy. So, stop making excuses. Some just aren't smart/determined enough.

    Yes, I agree again.

    My dad is a very successful accountant, and he wanted me to become an accountant as well. He pushed me really hard to go to UIUC or Indiana because these schools have good accounting programs. When I told my dad that I got into Cornell and want to go there, my dad was shocked. Actually, he didn't even know that Cornell was a good college. (yes, my dad is a midwest guy who never lived in East Coast) He was very puzzled that I turned down my state flagship, UIUC, to go to Cornell when in his view, UIUC was vastly superior to Cornell, or maybe even Harvard.

    I come from a pretty affluent neighborhood, and I know many kids who were rich as fuck. Guess what? Majority of those rich kids were, many times, lazy, dumb, smoked weed 5 times a week, or always chased after girls and never cared to study. And, their parents almost never pushed them to go to Harvard, get 2400 on SAT, etc. Most of kids from my high school (and our high school district is the richest district in Midwest) went to schools like Iowa, Indiana, UIUC, or Wisconsin.

    It is absolutely ridiculous to assume that just because you have 'elite' or 'wealthy' parents, you have automatic acceptance, or even a large boost, in getting into a top college.

    Your parents may or may not influence your level of ambition or what not, but in the end it is your intellect, your ambition, and your preparation that will get you into top colleges and your qualities, not your parents, are what will get you to lead a successful career.

  • Sexy_Like_Enrique's picture

    Another thing -

    If your parents are rich as fuck or very well connected, you don't need to attend Harvard to get a good job. You can bank on your daddy's connections or accumulated wealth to coast through your life, and as a result, may have less incentive to get into a top college and gun for IBD analyst gig compared to a guy that comes from a poor family background who is hungry as fuck to attain financial success via elite education and hard work.

    Clearly, there are both sides to the argument, but in the end, it is clearly the individual's merit and intellect that will get him to Harvard.

  • JDawg's picture

    why does WSO find these stupid arguments about prestige so fascinating?

  • RHK's picture

    Big 4 recruits at a lot of non-targets

  • In reply to JDawg
    Flake's picture

    JDawg wrote:
    why does WSO find these stupid arguments about prestige so fascinating?

    It kills time.

    Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

  • SECfinance's picture

    I think if I'm looking at Harvard 3.6 vs. non-target 3.6 w/ boutique internships, straight up I'll go Harvard. No question. But if the non-target guy has good SATs, has networked with my firm, and seems to be hustling while the Harvard guy just clicks two buttons on OCR, I'd probably take the non-target.

  • Rumplesmoothspin's picture

    Private HS does not guarantee you an easy route into an IVY but I am sure it helps a lot.

    From a European perspective, Oxbridge here is full of private/grammar school kids and its true that some colleges have a bias towards them. But who can blame them? They start college much sharper, well rounded than the state school kids.

    I went to a wack inner city school which placed about 10 people into a decent college every year. Our HS A Level grades were far below the national average. We didn't have the careers/college talks nor did we do anything that was enriching. Now in contrast to a lot of friends who came from private high schools, their profiles were full of charity work abroad, employer insight days, work experience etc.

    It certainly does not help to come from a state school when interviewing at a place like Oxford for a Economics degree and the interviewer asks you "What is your view on Neo-Liberal Economists?" - everything taught at states schools here is the bare minimum, syllabus material.

    The fact is I went to HS with a lot of bright people, far brighter than me who came out with crappy grades but its important to note that no matter how good or bad the teaching is, you have to work at it yourself. Nonetheless, these guys who might have gotten into a decent college now don't have a chance in hell at applying to any IB because A Level grades are screened online.

    Fees are a not a problem here for british citizens since it costs the same to go to Oxbridge as it does to go to SuperDigreeezColage and that is where the high school system comes into play.

  • coach.captain's picture

    firefighter wrote:

    Listen: If I'm looking at Harvard 3.6 Poli Sci with no real internships, and a Non-Target 3.6 Finance with boutique IBD internships, I'm taking the former ALL DAY (assuming that he's sociable, knows what IBD is, etc.).

    That's when I stopped reading, how about you guys?

  • FeelingMean's picture

    You guys do have to admit that getting into an Ivy such as Harvard these days is a crapshoot, right?

    And CKS2016, people like you are the reason why non-target kids are biased against target kids. I understand what you are saying, but do you see why a kid who has done everything in HIS power (3.8+, internships, ECs, "led sports teams", etc) who went to a "great school" would be frustrated that a "middle of the pack" Ivy league kid, who may or may not know what IBD even is, gets the nod "every day of the week"?

    "That dude is so haole, he don't even have any breath left."

  • templeu's picture

    This is the typical crap you hear from the upper class, that they earned it more than the lower class and it has nothing to do with the situation they were born into.
    Many kids from poorer backgrounds like myself had to work 40-50 hours a week in high school. Its almost impossible to get great grades if you have to contribute to the family income in this way. From an upper class background, many kids don't have to work, so they are able to get 3.9's and lead sports teams. I'm not saying that one works harder than the other, they probably both work about the same when all is added up (the rich kids great grades and sports achievements vs. the poor kids work hours and mediocre grades) its just that one might go to Harvard the other might just get into a state school.

  • UFOinsider's picture

    Some people bash the ivies here, no doubt about that. Ivies also take every chance they get to flash the name of their school like they are better than everyone else. MBA programs are one thing, undergrad recruiting is another:

    Hire the kid with experience.

    Get busy living

  • coach.captain's picture

    It is also a lot more important what you do in your university years compared to what you did in high school. Good for the target kid who worked his ass off in highschool to get into PoliSci at Harvard but didn't show any effort in getting internships, why should he? He goes to Harvard right? And now he is like umm you know..I do like investment banking..whatever that is.

    But the other kid who did okay in highschool, went on to a non target but worked his ass off by doing well in school, getting IB internships at boutiques and BB's because he knew what he wanted. I'll take that kid over a PoliSci graduate from Harvard ANY DAY OF THE WEEK! And I don't care what you think...that kid deserves to be picked over the other one.

    "Give me guys that are poor, smart, and hungry and no feelings."

  • euroazn's picture

    Listen, I went to visit Wharton when applying for colleges because one of my best buds was a sophomore there.
    I was smarter than the average student in his classes (edit: and that's not because I'm some sort of genius either. This is a comment on them, not me). These were sophomores and they were asking me, the high school senior, how to do problems the professor put out. And they deserve internships/jobs more than I do? That's not even remotely fair.

    Now, that being said, I do agree that life isn't fair and the employers have every right to do this.

  • In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
    IlliniProgrammer's picture

    Sexy_Like_Enrique wrote:
    seedy underbelly wrote:
    Sexy_Like_Enrique wrote:
    There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

    illini?

    Yes. Just go read the thread:

    http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/lowest-ranke...

    page 6-7.

    His viewpoint is that all it takes to get into Harvard is to be born under high-achieving parents, and it is the work of those pushy parents that get a kid into Harvard, not the kid's own hard work and intellect. Hence, just because a kid goes to Harvard, that in and out of itself doesn't signal the kid's intellect, hard work, or whatever, but it just tells employers that this kid comes from an elite family background.

    As much as I respect illini, I get really pissed when I encounter ridiculous viewpoints such as this.


    I have no idea why these views seem to scare people so much that they have to dig old posts up from the dead. Oh well, the more people unsolicitedly repeat their opposition to my views, the more credence they seem to lend them.

    For the record, I don't have a problem with Ivy League schools. I even think it's smart to correct for the fact that a 3.5 in liberal arts at Harvard is probably as tough to get as a 3.9 at a state school.

    But frankly, I don't care very much what got you into the school you're going to. I care what you've done since you turned 18. What kind of an adult you have turned into. I think generally, that's a statement most people in business will agree with. Even the Ivy Leaguers I work with.

    I think more recent selectivity indicators are much more important. What kind of dropout rate does your program have? Engineering? Math? 50% drop-out or major change rate? Now we're getting somewhere. Or ok, you STARTED at Ohio State but TRANSFERRED to Harvard as a Junior. Or you worked FULL-TIME while taking 16 credit hours to pay for school.

    I want to find kids who haven't been coddled in undergrad. MIT and Chicago are the perfect examples of tough schools with smart kids which give everyone a nine digit number, dump them into the water, and tell them to drown or swim.

  • IlliniProgrammer's picture

    Also, am I the first person to notice that firefighter has a lot of posts where he takes one extreme view or another, often contradicting each other between posts?

    Look, people are free to have their views that MIT, Princeton, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, and Stanford are the best schools ever and we should only hire from them. Good for them if they choose to see things that way. But the cool thing about the US is that only the past two or three years really matter. We're a Hamiltonian society that loves to ask "So what have you done lately?" This question is one that guys who are on their way up are thrilled to answer, and a question that guys who are on their way down dread. So seeing what you've done with the cards you've been dealt over the past 2-3 years gives me a lot more information about you than which school you got into.

  • happypantsmcgee's picture

    firefighter is a hoe, this is true.

    If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

  • In reply to seedy underbelly
    utexas2010's picture

    seedy underbelly wrote:
    ProspectiveMonkey wrote:
    I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

    These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

    Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

    Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

    You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

    Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

    Are you retarded?

    So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

    Before you go around calling people retarded look in the mirror. I work and live in Manhattan and I have seen first hand the craziness and competition that goes into gaining admission to a Pre-K Private Prep program. From coworkers with toddlers to neighbors, the competition is fierce. I was told last week by a coworker that his kid was recently denied admission to a private 25K/Year school (for a 4 year old!!!) due to the lottery system and pre-admission testing they used. To top it off, this school GUARANTEES top tier college admission (how? I have no clue). It is absurd but sadly in Manhattan this private school shark infested, parent controlled pressure exists. One last thing- I overheard someone being ridiculed becuase they haven't started using flashcards with their 3 year old to prep for private school admissions- sickening.

  • Relinquis's picture

    Ok... A few things from someone who has had the responsibility of hiring people to invest... their mistakes mean that we lose money:

    Background:
    - We have both targets (LSE/Oxbridge/Columbia/HBS) and non-targets at our firm etc... I attended a non-target.
    - Young guys at our firm are experienced. We rarely higher out of undergrad.

    Hiring people:
    - Performance over anything. This is the driver of all our hiring. We want people who will deliver results. You need to demonstrate this.
    - Experience trumps all as far as it indicates good performance. Experience trumps all as far as it indicates good performance. Experience trumps all as far as it indicates good performance.
    - No, that's not a typo.
    - Our hiring: I've hired guys with undergrad degrees from state schools in the mid west over Columbia students with Masters degrees in our sector. Why? because the state school guy had superior experience and killed the interview/model. i.e. the total package demonstrated higher performance.
    - Signalling performance: As a DISTANT second to experience, top schools (i.e. MIT/Ivy/Oxbridge/LSE, etc...) help signal that a candidate cares about performance. Other proxies include high GPAs, etc...
    - Network: Personal recommendations / referrals are actually superior to brand name schools for getting in front of us if we value the person making the referral. Why? Because the other guys is putting his reputation on the line.
    - Target appeal: All brand name schools candidates get the benefit of the doubt, regardless of the interviewers school.
    - Supporting your school. My colleagues were very clear about trying to interview candidates that had attended their same school. This applied to big state school colleagues and Oxbridge folks.

    Lessons: So what's the conclusion?
    - Performance above all. Everything else is either a proxy for this or an enabler of this
    - Attending a Target is a good thing. I would only go to a Target for my masters as the branding is very useful. No target bashing here.
    - Hiring Targets is a good thing, in so far as you can't determine performance in another manner. It's a proxy. You might have to teach them how to make money if they don't have the experience.
    - Hiring high performing/potential non-targets is a very smart thing to do.
    - Do your homework and work on yourself. You will lose out to the non-target guy if you screw up on our tests/interview or if you didn't articulate your ability to help us make money.
    - Make friends and work on your network/relationships. Lots of buyside jobs are unadvertised and your networks is the distribution channel for your skills/resume.

    Disclaimer: I might be missing out on some of the class/social structure/social mobility issues in with regards to Target Vs. Non-Target discussion in the USA.

  • In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
    duffmt6's picture

    Sexy_Like_Enrique wrote:
    jaschen27 wrote:
    Every kid i know who went to a top 5 school earned every bit of it in high school. How many fucking "elite families" do there have to be to populate the ranks of the ivy league?

    Yes. Unless you are a Bush or a Kennedy, you aren't getting into Harvard just because of who your daddy is. This is a irrefutable fact.

    Actually, coming from a non-elite family background may help you get into Harvard, ironically. Being an impoverished URM from inner-city region will make it 100 times easier to get into Harvard compared to a talented gunner White or Asian guy. Sad, but true.

    I think this completely ignores the fact that many high schools feed into the Ivies (mainly prestigious prep schools and Catholic private schools). Simply going to a public school puts you at a disadvantage for many of the Ivies.

    On the other hand, I agree that especially non-traditional backgrounds probably benefit you for Ivy admissions.

    "For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

  • farmerbob's picture

    Your view of getting into ivy league schools is skewed by where you grew up (mine probably is as well). But this is inaccurate, someone can have amazing stats and work really hard in high school and not get into an ivy. Most of the people who attend the ivies are from new england/east coast/mid-atlantic area (Where these colleges are located). This gives you a huge advantage over kids from other parts of the country.
    It's all about where you grew up. I have friends who were the top students at large competitive schools here in the midwest and had some of the best stats(valedictorian, top test scores) in the state and were rejected from ivies. I do not know a single person who go's to an ivy, but I know plenty at northwestern/umich.
    Also, for those who weren't from the city and were stuck in some small rural school are at an even bigger disadvantage because the quality of education at these schools are so poor you are never prepared for the standardized tests, but the top students from these schools go on to become top students at Big10 or 12 schools, and but were disregarded by the ivies.

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