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2/2/12

One thing that's very disheartening to read on this forum is the bias against kids from targets. Apparently, kids from targets just *happened* to be privileged enough to get into a good school while kids from non-targets unfairly get screwed. I'm sorry, but when did working hard in high school and middle school become "privileged"? I know some outstanding kids at non-targets and mediocre kids at targets, but the kids here who attack targets on here honestly sound like OWS. 99% of the spots in banking are filled with 1% of schools!!!!!!

Listen: If I'm looking at Harvard 3.6 Poli Sci with no real internships, and a Non-Target 3.6 Finance with boutique IBD internships, I'm taking the former ALL DAY (assuming that he's sociable, knows what IBD is, etc.). Why? Because I know that Harvard kid was motivated enough to spend 4 years in high school working his ass off, getting 2300+ SATs and 3.9+ GPAs and leading sports teams while the Non-Target kid made some cold-calls to random boutiques and got lucky. Yes, you can argue the whole "can't afford Harvard" or "rich parents made donations" angle (and I ABSOLUTELY sympathize with the kids who couldn't afford to go to Stern or GTown or some other low-financial aid school), but generally speaking, most targets are actually incredibly generous with financial aid and development cases make up a tiny portion of the population (and those kids get hooked up anyway). In fact coming from a poor background helps you get into Harvard.

Just my rant. To quote someone from this forum, "it's not a silver spoon if you've earned it." I'm not bashing non-target kids in anyway (the ones I've met in banking are terrific), just the ones who paint the Ivies with the same broad stroke.

Comments (426)

Best Response
2/3/12
firefighter:

Listen: If I'm looking at Harvard 3.6 Poli Sci with no real internships, and a Non-Target 3.6 Finance with boutique IBD internships, I'm taking the former ALL DAY

This is incredibly myopic and probably not indicative of the majority of interviewers. Thank god we have an interview process... it's pretty obvious that someone in a non-related major with no relevant experience should have more to prove. I'm not saying kids from Harvard aren't smart but this is just retarded. I have a stack of 200+ resumes on this desk right now and I can point to probably 50 at least that are from non targets with above a 3.8 and more than one finance internship. If I see a kid from Harvard with some demonstrated experience or has a really cool background and has been heavily involved in ec's and has a 3.6 in poly sci, then fine I think that checks the box. If he just has a 3.6 and nothing else and you say because he went to Harvard he deserves an interview over the kid with an equivalent GPA and experience then you're off your fucking gourd. I worked with kid from Harvard and he shares this view.

Why should you be giving someone credit now for something they accomplished 3+ years ago. Sure they are smart, yeah they did well on a standardized test, but finance is and always will be about "what have you done for me lately." If you only have the 3.6 in poly sci, you certainly don't bring more to the table than a kid who has already interned in banking... get serious. I have to teach the kid from Harvard more and there is no reason to believe that he will perform any better than anyone else. If you look around Analyst classes there isn't much of a correlation between how good someone is and where they went to school. This is a fact. It might get you in the door because of the biases of your interviewer or someone like firefighter, but after you get in it ceases to matter. I don't care where someone went to school as long as they are smart and I have heard of the institution. I know tons of kids in my Analyst class from Indiana and Vanderbilt that are way better than kids from Penn, Dartmouth or Harvard. It is completely dependent on the kid.

I agree there is a lot of whining on this forum from non-target kids directed at target kids. To this I have the following to say:

1. Deal with it... if you are good enough to get in and you put the work in, you will find a job somewhere if you don't give up.
2. A lot of you think you are good enough but "maybe the banks just aren't that into you" because you think of yourselves far too highly. You need a reality check.
3. It's a tough year for recruiting so the above may not be true and it may just be a numbers game... if you've done an objective self assessment and received feedback from people in the industry who say you can do it, then I refer you to point number one.

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2/3/12

Well spoken and very true. I could not agree more.

The top kid from University of Iowa will surely beat the laziest kid from Harvard/Yale/Princeton, but I'd take a middle-of-the-pack kid from Ivy league over a 3.8 kid from non-target every day of the week.

2/3/12

I'm a non-target and I have a ton of respect for people who attended target schools. Even when I was working in a BO type of role, I knew I got what I deserved and I also knew that from that point on I would have to work twice as hard to make up for all of the bullshitting I did in school. I should've worked harder in HS, I should have scored higher on my SATs, I should have applied and gotten into better colleges, but I didn't...I was average at best, so why bitch about it?

The whole "can't afford Harvard" shit is crap. There are plenty of shitty schools out there that cost 35-40k+ a year and kids still go there and still complain about it like god hates them or something...Fuck that.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

2/3/12

There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

2/3/12
firefighter:

One thing that's very disheartening to read on this forum is the bias against kids from targets. Apparently, kids from targets just *happened* to be privileged enough to get into a good school while kids from non-targets unfairly get screwed. I'm sorry, but when did working hard in high school and middle school become "privileged"? I know some outstanding kids at non-targets and mediocre kids at targets, but the kids here who attack targets on here honestly sound like OWS. 99% of the spots in banking are filled with 1% of schools!!!!!!

Listen: If I'm looking at Harvard 3.6 Poli Sci with no real internships, and a Non-Target 3.6 Finance with boutique IBD internships, I'm taking the former ALL DAY (assuming that he's sociable, knows what IBD is, etc.). Why? Because I know that Harvard kid was motivated enough to spend 4 years in high school working his ass off, getting 2300+ SATs and 3.9+ GPAs and leading sports teams while the Non-Target kid made some cold-calls to random boutiques and got lucky. Yes, you can argue the whole "can't afford Harvard" or "rich parents made donations" angle (and I ABSOLUTELY sympathize with the kids who couldn't afford to go to Stern or GTown or some other low-financial aid school), but generally speaking, most targets are actually incredibly generous with financial aid and development cases make up a tiny portion of the population (and those kids get hooked up anyway). In fact coming from a poor background helps you get into Harvard.

Just my rant. To quote someone from this forum, "it's not a silver spoon if you've earned it." I'm not bashing non-target kids in anyway (the ones I've met in banking are terrific), just the ones who paint the Ivies with the same broad stroke.

Take everything you read on this website with a grain of salt. You'd think half of the people on this board are terminally ill by the constant complaining

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/3/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

Sounds like a bitter asshole.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

In reply to Flake
2/3/12
Flake:

I'm a non-target and I have a ton of respect for people who attended target schools. Even when I was working in a BO type of role, I knew I got what I deserved and I also knew that from that point on I would have to work twice as hard to make up for all of the bullshitting I did in school. I should've worked harder in HS, I should have scored higher on my SATs, I should have applied and gotten into better colleges, but I didn't...I was average at best, so why bitch about it?

The whole "can't afford Harvard" shit is crap. There are plenty of shitty schools out there that cost 35-40k+ a year and kids still go there and still complain about it like god hates them or something...Fuck that.

Not to point this finger at you, because you do seem like a pretty smart guy, but there is way too much shoulda, coulda, woulda on this forum in general

In reply to jaschen27
2/3/12
jaschen27:
Flake:

I'm a non-target and I have a ton of respect for people who attended target schools. Even when I was working in a BO type of role, I knew I got what I deserved and I also knew that from that point on I would have to work twice as hard to make up for all of the bullshitting I did in school. I should've worked harder in HS, I should have scored higher on my SATs, I should have applied and gotten into better colleges, but I didn't...I was average at best, so why bitch about it?

The whole "can't afford Harvard" shit is crap. There are plenty of shitty schools out there that cost 35-40k+ a year and kids still go there and still complain about it like god hates them or something...Fuck that.

Not to point this finger at you, because you do seem like a pretty smart guy, but there is way too much shoulda, coulda, woulda on this forum in general

Agreed.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

In reply to Flake
2/3/12
Flake:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

Sounds like a bitter asshole.

I have a lot of respect for that guy, he's a smart guy that gives a lot of sound advice on this forum and he is one of the top posters on this forum.

However, he has the biggest chip on his shoulder against Ivies for some reason.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/3/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

illini?

2/3/12

Wholeheartedly agree with the OP. The bias against targets on this forum is sickeningly OWS-like.

2/3/12

I don't judge people based on the school they attended (unless it's WVU). To assume that somebody had a 3.9 GPA, 2300+ SAT, and "led sports teams" (lol what?) in high school in order to get into Harvard is just plain retarded. And I admit I'm somewhat bitter over my education, but really, that's a fucking stupid assumption not grounded in reality. People get into top schools for many different reasons.

In reply to seedy underbelly
2/3/12
seedy underbelly:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

illini?

Yes. Just go read the thread:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/lowest-ranke...

page 6-7.

His viewpoint is that all it takes to get into Harvard is to be born under high-achieving parents, and it is the work of those pushy parents that get a kid into Harvard, not the kid's own hard work and intellect. Hence, just because a kid goes to Harvard, that in and out of itself doesn't signal the kid's intellect, hard work, or whatever, but it just tells employers that this kid comes from an elite family background.

As much as I respect illini, I get really pissed when I encounter ridiculous viewpoints such as this.

2/3/12

Every kid i know who went to a top 5 school earned every bit of it in high school. How many fucking "elite families" do there have to be to populate the ranks of the ivy league?

2/3/12

Just a caveat: to those who say that not everyone who got into an Ivy earned it and not everyone who could have gone Ivy went, that's what the SAT/high school sections are for. If I see that you had a 4.0 in HS and good SATs but went to a non-target, I'll basically give you the benefit of the doubt as if you actually went to an Ivy

In reply to jaschen27
2/3/12
jaschen27:

Every kid i know who went to a top 5 school earned every bit of it in high school. How many fucking "elite families" do there have to be to populate the ranks of the ivy league?

Yes. Unless you are a Bush or a Kennedy, you aren't getting into Harvard just because of who your daddy is. This is a irrefutable fact.

Actually, coming from a non-elite family background may help you get into Harvard, ironically. Being an impoverished URM from inner-city region will make it 100 times easier to get into Harvard compared to a talented gunner White or Asian guy. Sad, but true.

In reply to firefighter
2/3/12
firefighter:

Just a caveat: to those who say that not everyone who got into an Ivy earned it and not everyone who could have gone Ivy went, that's what the SAT/high school sections are for. If I see that you had a 4.0 in HS and good SATs but went to a non-target, I'll basically give you the benefit of the doubt as if you actually went to an Ivy

Where are these sections you're talking about?

2/3/12

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

2/3/12

parents are such a big factor in getting into any good college. if you had shitty parents that didn't give a fuck about you and grew up in a shitty neighborhood with shitty schools, you probably aren't getting into any college at all. having overachieving parents that forced you into extracurriculars, made you go to an SAT tutor, and made sure you did your homework, will give you such a great advantage over anyone else. i strongly believe in nurture over nature for this.

In reply to whatwhatwhat
2/3/12
whatwhatwhat:

parents are such a big factor in getting into any good college. if you had shitty parents that didn't give a fuck about you and grew up in a shitty neighborhood with shitty schools, you probably aren't getting into any college at all.

You're right, and of course I'll consider where the kid came from, etc. when thinking about resume selections. If dude went to Andover and ended up at a non-target, it's a much different story than a kid from North Dakota who ended up at a Big 10. Information isn't perfect unfortunately, and so we'll use school as a screen and take kids from then.

In reply to ProspectiveMonkey
2/3/12
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

In reply to ProspectiveMonkey
2/3/12
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

http://admissions.cornell.edu/

From Cornell, 66% of kids come from public high schools, 18% come from private, and 16% from home school. I am too lazy to check on Harvard stats, but my guess is they're similar.

Clearly, most of kids at an Ivy school come from non-private high school.

My take on this is that sure, having an elite parents would work to your advantage, but it balances out: Asians or whites (or Jews) have to overcome much higher admissions hurdle standards to get into top colleges than many of poor URM kids, who may not have pushy or elite parents.

In other words, you need to compete against others from similar backgrounds as you, and stand out from that crowd, to get into Harvard. If you are a 2300 SAT scorer and Asian or Jewish, you are competing against hundreds of other gunner Asians or Jewish kids with very elite or pushy parents to get in, and you aren't competing against those poor black kids whose parents don't give a fuck about their kids' education.

Bottom line is this - no matter how 'elite' or pushy your parents are, you obviously need the drive, diligence, and due intelligence to get into top colleges unless you are a Bush or a Kennedy. Individual merit trumps familial pedigree in this equation, by far.

Lastly, the vast majority of kids at Ivies get substantial financial aid, implying that majority of kids at Ivies don't come from money.

In reply to seedy underbelly
2/3/12
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

Seedy, for once, I 100% agree with you.

How does going to a private school = acceptance letter to Harvard??!!

If anything, if you go to an elite prep school, you are living AWAY from your 'elite' parents, so you are more on your own to get your shit done.

2/3/12
firefighter:

...while the Non-Target kid made some cold-calls to random boutiques and got lucky.

.
Just to establish perspective, I am a non-target. I agree with your post and think that target kids get shat on way too often in this forum. However, don't you dare belittle the process of getting in from a non-target. I can't tell you how many hours I spent building a list of contacts over a 2-3 year period, how I had to travel back a forth from school 6 hours at a time for a 30 minute lunch with some rando who perhaps could get my resume to the right person. I had to bust my hump like a slave working for nothing for an entire summer just to get a little experience. (Actually paying to work because I had to pay for transportation).Now that may not be the typical nontarget story but it certainly highlights the painstaking efforts many of these kids take to get their resumes in front of a banker. Also, and remember this ..."The harder you work, the LUCKIER you become"

In reply to U Accrete Me
2/3/12
U Accrete Me:
firefighter:

...while the Non-Target kid made some cold-calls to random boutiques and got lucky.

.
Just to establish perspective, I am a non-target. I agree with your post and think that target kids get shat on way too often in this forum. However, don't you dare belittle the process of getting in from a non-target. I can't tell you how many hours I spent building a list of contacts over a 2-3 year period, how I had to travel back a forth from school 6 hours at a time for a 30 minute lunch with some rando who perhaps could get my resume to the right person. I had to bust my hump like a slave working for nothing for an entire summer just to get a little experience. (Actually paying to work because I had to pay for transportation).Now that may not be the typical nontarget story but it certainly highlights the painstaking efforts many of these kids take to get their resumes in front of a banker. Also, and remember this ..."The harder you work, the LUCKIER you become"

I actually have more respect for non-target kids who broke into IB than the target kids. It shows your passion, dedication, and preparation.

However, one thing that may make your life easier: if you are at non-target but want a shot at banking OCR, just transfer to a target or semi-target school.

Getting into HYP as a transfer is impossible, but schools like Indiana, UNC, U Michigan, UVA, UCLA, Northwestern, UIUC, Cornell, Boston College, or Duke. These schools get pretty decent OCR from banks, yet they're far from being impossible to get into as a transfer if you have competitive stats.

Indiana, in particular, is a very easy school to get into, yet they have a decent placement record into IB. (they have an IB workshop from which IB placement success is very high)

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/3/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

Seedy, for once, I 100% agree with you.

How does going to a private school = acceptance letter to Harvard??!!

If anything, if you go to an elite prep school, you are living AWAY from your 'elite' parents, so you are more on your own to get your shit done.

There are only 5, maximum 6, elite schools in the US where being a student gives one an advantage in getting in. But even there the competition is fucking insane. Legacies, athletes, rich-kids whose parents can donate a building mixed with about 30% of middle-class, determined-as-hell kids. The Andover and Deerfield kids just utterly dominate the academics and social scene here, because they have had to compete so rigorously just to get in even from their "privileged" high schools.

And, lastly, yes I agree that parents play a massive role in shaping your ambitions and your achievements. But that isn't an excuse for your failures. my parents to this day still don't know what the Ivy League is or what the SATs are, or anything. They're just glad the school is generous enough for them to be paying nothing. Yet, I wanted to go to an Ivy, so I stuck to my goals. As did the majority of kids at my Ivy. So, stop making excuses. Some just aren't smart/determined enough.

The WSO Advantage - Investment Banking

Financial Modeling Training

IB Templates, M&A, LBO, Valuation +

IB Interview Prep Pack

30,000+ sold & REAL questions.

Resume Help from Actual IB Pros

Land More IB Interviews.

Find Your Perfect IB Mentor

Realistic IB Mock Interviews.

2/3/12

Completely agree with OP...the majority of students at targets worked their ass off all their life and are able to attend a top institution without any financial support from their parents because they'ved earned it.

In reply to seedy underbelly
2/3/12
seedy underbelly:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

Seedy, for once, I 100% agree with you.

How does going to a private school = acceptance letter to Harvard??!!

If anything, if you go to an elite prep school, you are living AWAY from your 'elite' parents, so you are more on your own to get your shit done.

There are only 5, maximum 6, elite schools in the US where being a student gives one an advantage in getting in. But even there the competition is fucking insane. Legacies, athletes, rich-kids whose parents can donate a building mixed with about 30% of middle-class, determined-as-hell kids. The Andover and Deerfield kids just utterly dominate the academics and social scene here, because they have had to compete so rigorously just to get in even from their "privileged" high schools.

And, lastly, yes I agree that parents play a massive role in shaping your ambitions and your achievements. But that isn't an excuse for your failures. my parents to this day still don't know what the Ivy League is or what the SATs are, or anything. They're just glad the school is generous enough for them to be paying nothing. Yet, I wanted to go to an Ivy, so I stuck to my goals. As did the majority of kids at my Ivy. So, stop making excuses. Some just aren't smart/determined enough.

Yes, I agree again.

My dad is a very successful accountant, and he wanted me to become an accountant as well. He pushed me really hard to go to UIUC or Indiana because these schools have good accounting programs. When I told my dad that I got into Cornell and want to go there, my dad was shocked. Actually, he didn't even know that Cornell was a good college. (yes, my dad is a midwest guy who never lived in East Coast) He was very puzzled that I turned down my state flagship, UIUC, to go to Cornell when in his view, UIUC was vastly superior to Cornell, or maybe even Harvard.

I come from a pretty affluent neighborhood, and I know many kids who were rich as fuck. Guess what? Majority of those rich kids were, many times, lazy, dumb, smoked weed 5 times a week, or always chased after girls and never cared to study. And, their parents almost never pushed them to go to Harvard, get 2400 on SAT, etc. Most of kids from my high school (and our high school district is the richest district in Midwest) went to schools like Iowa, Indiana, UIUC, or Wisconsin.

It is absolutely ridiculous to assume that just because you have 'elite' or 'wealthy' parents, you have automatic acceptance, or even a large boost, in getting into a top college.

Your parents may or may not influence your level of ambition or what not, but in the end it is your intellect, your ambition, and your preparation that will get you into top colleges and your qualities, not your parents, are what will get you to lead a successful career.

2/3/12

Another thing -

If your parents are rich as fuck or very well connected, you don't need to attend Harvard to get a good job. You can bank on your daddy's connections or accumulated wealth to coast through your life, and as a result, may have less incentive to get into a top college and gun for IBD analyst gig compared to a guy that comes from a poor family background who is hungry as fuck to attain financial success via elite education and hard work.

Clearly, there are both sides to the argument, but in the end, it is clearly the individual's merit and intellect that will get him to Harvard.

2/3/12

why does WSO find these stupid arguments about prestige so fascinating?

2/3/12

OCR at Target = GS,MS, JPM, etc
OCR at Non-Target = Aflac Salesman

Dont tell me Targets work just as hard..

In reply to technoviking
2/3/12
technoviking:

OCR at Non-Target = Aflac Salesman

I hear GE FMP and Big4 accounting recruit at non-target schools

2/3/12

Big 4 recruits at a lot of non-targets

In reply to technoviking
2/3/12
technoviking:

OCR at Target = GS,MS, JPM, etc
OCR at Non-Target = Aflac Salesman

Dont tell me Targets work just as hard..

Nobody actually cares what's happening with OCR.
The subject is all about the fact that you don't just miraculousely end up in a target.

While you were trying to bang that high school hot chick and throwing paper balls at the teacher the Ivy guys were studying to get perfect SAT scores.

Now instead of waiting for JPMorgan to come to your campus you have to work your ass off.
Sounds pretty fair considering your former laziness.

There are exceptions, stupid kids in targets and bright ones in non-targets, but broadly speaking, it seems that non-targets are just ranting because they realise (too late) that studying hard at high school was actually worth it, and not just a weirdo thing.

Your reasoning sounds like :
- Why do private equity firms prefer those retarded privileged guys from Morgan Stanley ?

I'm a hardworking genious working for [email protected] and I have to work 100 times harder than ex-MS to get an interview with KKR.

In reply to JDawg
2/3/12
JDawg:

why does WSO find these stupid arguments about prestige so fascinating?

It kills time.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.

2/3/12

I think if I'm looking at Harvard 3.6 vs. non-target 3.6 w/ boutique internships, straight up I'll go Harvard. No question. But if the non-target guy has good SATs, has networked with my firm, and seems to be hustling while the Harvard guy just clicks two buttons on OCR, I'd probably take the non-target.

MM IB -> Corporate Development

2/3/12

Private HS does not guarantee you an easy route into an IVY but I am sure it helps a lot.

From a European perspective, Oxbridge here is full of private/grammar school kids and its true that some colleges have a bias towards them. But who can blame them? They start college much sharper, well rounded than the state school kids.

I went to a wack inner city school which placed about 10 people into a decent college every year. Our HS A Level grades were far below the national average. We didn't have the careers/college talks nor did we do anything that was enriching. Now in contrast to a lot of friends who came from private high schools, their profiles were full of charity work abroad, employer insight days, work experience etc.

It certainly does not help to come from a state school when interviewing at a place like Oxford for a Economics degree and the interviewer asks you "What is your view on Neo-Liberal Economists?" - everything taught at states schools here is the bare minimum, syllabus material.

The fact is I went to HS with a lot of bright people, far brighter than me who came out with crappy grades but its important to note that no matter how good or bad the teaching is, you have to work at it yourself. Nonetheless, these guys who might have gotten into a decent college now don't have a chance in hell at applying to any IB because A Level grades are screened online.

Fees are a not a problem here for british citizens since it costs the same to go to Oxbridge as it does to go to SuperDigreeezColage and that is where the high school system comes into play.

2/3/12

Wanna go to HYP? Learn how to row.

2/3/12
firefighter:

Listen: If I'm looking at Harvard 3.6 Poli Sci with no real internships, and a Non-Target 3.6 Finance with boutique IBD internships, I'm taking the former ALL DAY (assuming that he's sociable, knows what IBD is, etc.).

That's when I stopped reading, how about you guys?

2/3/12

You guys do have to admit that getting into an Ivy such as Harvard these days is a crapshoot, right?

And CKS2016, people like you are the reason why non-target kids are biased against target kids. I understand what you are saying, but do you see why a kid who has done everything in HIS power (3.8+, internships, ECs, "led sports teams", etc) who went to a "great school" would be frustrated that a "middle of the pack" Ivy league kid, who may or may not know what IBD even is, gets the nod "every day of the week"?

"That dude is so haole, he don't even have any breath left."

2/3/12

This is the typical crap you hear from the upper class, that they earned it more than the lower class and it has nothing to do with the situation they were born into.
Many kids from poorer backgrounds like myself had to work 40-50 hours a week in high school. Its almost impossible to get great grades if you have to contribute to the family income in this way. From an upper class background, many kids don't have to work, so they are able to get 3.9's and lead sports teams. I'm not saying that one works harder than the other, they probably both work about the same when all is added up (the rich kids great grades and sports achievements vs. the poor kids work hours and mediocre grades) its just that one might go to Harvard the other might just get into a state school.

2/3/12

It is also a lot more important what you do in your university years compared to what you did in high school. Good for the target kid who worked his ass off in highschool to get into PoliSci at Harvard but didn't show any effort in getting internships, why should he? He goes to Harvard right? And now he is like umm you know..I do like investment banking..whatever that is.

But the other kid who did okay in highschool, went on to a non target but worked his ass off by doing well in school, getting IB internships at boutiques and BB's because he knew what he wanted. I'll take that kid over a PoliSci graduate from Harvard ANY DAY OF THE WEEK! And I don't care what you think...that kid deserves to be picked over the other one.

"Give me guys that are poor, smart, and hungry and no feelings."

2/3/12

Listen, I went to visit Wharton when applying for colleges because one of my best buds was a sophomore there.
I was smarter than the average student in his classes (edit: and that's not because I'm some sort of genius either. This is a comment on them, not me). These were sophomores and they were asking me, the high school senior, how to do problems the professor put out. And they deserve internships/jobs more than I do? That's not even remotely fair.

Now, that being said, I do agree that life isn't fair and the employers have every right to do this.

2/3/12

Some people bash the ivies here, no doubt about that. Ivies also take every chance they get to flash the name of their school like they are better than everyone else. MBA programs are one thing, undergrad recruiting is another:

Hire the kid with experience.

Get busy living

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/3/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
seedy underbelly:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

There is a particular poster on this forum who bashes Ivies every chance he gets, resorting to saying that getting into Harvard undergrad is the work of your parents, not your own work.

illini?

Yes. Just go read the thread:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/lowest-ranke...

page 6-7.

His viewpoint is that all it takes to get into Harvard is to be born under high-achieving parents, and it is the work of those pushy parents that get a kid into Harvard, not the kid's own hard work and intellect. Hence, just because a kid goes to Harvard, that in and out of itself doesn't signal the kid's intellect, hard work, or whatever, but it just tells employers that this kid comes from an elite family background.

As much as I respect illini, I get really pissed when I encounter ridiculous viewpoints such as this.

I have no idea why these views seem to scare people so much that they have to dig old posts up from the dead. Oh well, the more people unsolicitedly repeat their opposition to my views, the more credence they seem to lend them.

For the record, I don't have a problem with Ivy League schools. I even think it's smart to correct for the fact that a 3.5 in liberal arts at Harvard is probably as tough to get as a 3.9 at a state school.

But frankly, I don't care very much what got you into the school you're going to. I care what you've done since you turned 18. What kind of an adult you have turned into. I think generally, that's a statement most people in business will agree with. Even the Ivy Leaguers I work with.

I think more recent selectivity indicators are much more important. What kind of dropout rate does your program have? Engineering? Math? 50% drop-out or major change rate? Now we're getting somewhere. Or ok, you STARTED at Ohio State but TRANSFERRED to Harvard as a Junior. Or you worked FULL-TIME while taking 16 credit hours to pay for school.

I want to find kids who haven't been coddled in undergrad. MIT and Chicago are the perfect examples of tough schools with smart kids which give everyone a nine digit number, dump them into the water, and tell them to drown or swim.

2/3/12

firefighter is a hoe, this is true.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

2/3/12

Also, am I the first person to notice that firefighter has a lot of posts where he takes one extreme view or another, often contradicting each other between posts?

Look, people are free to have their views that MIT, Princeton, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, and Stanford are the best schools ever and we should only hire from them. Good for them if they choose to see things that way. But the cool thing about the US is that only the past two or three years really matter. We're a Hamiltonian society that loves to ask "So what have you done lately?" This question is one that guys who are on their way up are thrilled to answer, and a question that guys who are on their way down dread. So seeing what you've done with the cards you've been dealt over the past 2-3 years gives me a lot more information about you than which school you got into.

In reply to seedy underbelly
2/3/12
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

Before you go around calling people retarded look in the mirror. I work and live in Manhattan and I have seen first hand the craziness and competition that goes into gaining admission to a Pre-K Private Prep program. From coworkers with toddlers to neighbors, the competition is fierce. I was told last week by a coworker that his kid was recently denied admission to a private 25K/Year school (for a 4 year old!!!) due to the lottery system and pre-admission testing they used. To top it off, this school GUARANTEES top tier college admission (how? I have no clue). It is absurd but sadly in Manhattan this private school shark infested, parent controlled pressure exists. One last thing- I overheard someone being ridiculed becuase they haven't started using flashcards with their 3 year old to prep for private school admissions- sickening.

2/3/12

Ok... A few things from someone who has had the responsibility of hiring people to invest... their mistakes mean that we lose money:

Background:
- We have both targets (LSE/Oxbridge/Columbia/HBS) and non-targets at our firm etc... I attended a non-target.
- Young guys at our firm are experienced. We rarely higher out of undergrad.

Hiring people:
- Performance over anything. This is the driver of all our hiring. We want people who will deliver results. You need to demonstrate this.
- Experience trumps all as far as it indicates good performance. Experience trumps all as far as it indicates good performance. Experience trumps all as far as it indicates good performance.
- No, that's not a typo.
- Our hiring: I've hired guys with undergrad degrees from state schools in the mid west over Columbia students with Masters degrees in our sector. Why? because the state school guy had superior experience and killed the interview/model. i.e. the total package demonstrated higher performance.
- Signalling performance: As a DISTANT second to experience, top schools (i.e. MIT/Ivy/Oxbridge/LSE, etc...) help signal that a candidate cares about performance. Other proxies include high GPAs, etc...
- Network: Personal recommendations / referrals are actually superior to brand name schools for getting in front of us if we value the person making the referral. Why? Because the other guys is putting his reputation on the line.
- Target appeal: All brand name schools candidates get the benefit of the doubt, regardless of the interviewers school.
- Supporting your school. My colleagues were very clear about trying to interview candidates that had attended their same school. This applied to big state school colleagues and Oxbridge folks.

Lessons: So what's the conclusion?
- Performance above all. Everything else is either a proxy for this or an enabler of this
- Attending a Target is a good thing. I would only go to a Target for my masters as the branding is very useful. No target bashing here.
- Hiring Targets is a good thing, in so far as you can't determine performance in another manner. It's a proxy. You might have to teach them how to make money if they don't have the experience.
- Hiring high performing/potential non-targets is a very smart thing to do.
- Do your homework and work on yourself. You will lose out to the non-target guy if you screw up on our tests/interview or if you didn't articulate your ability to help us make money.
- Make friends and work on your network/relationships. Lots of buyside jobs are unadvertised and your networks is the distribution channel for your skills/resume.

Disclaimer: I might be missing out on some of the class/social structure/social mobility issues in with regards to Target Vs. Non-Target discussion in the USA.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/3/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
jaschen27:

Every kid i know who went to a top 5 school earned every bit of it in high school. How many fucking "elite families" do there have to be to populate the ranks of the ivy league?

Yes. Unless you are a Bush or a Kennedy, you aren't getting into Harvard just because of who your daddy is. This is a irrefutable fact.

Actually, coming from a non-elite family background may help you get into Harvard, ironically. Being an impoverished URM from inner-city region will make it 100 times easier to get into Harvard compared to a talented gunner White or Asian guy. Sad, but true.

I think this completely ignores the fact that many high schools feed into the Ivies (mainly prestigious prep schools and Catholic private schools). Simply going to a public school puts you at a disadvantage for many of the Ivies.

On the other hand, I agree that especially non-traditional backgrounds probably benefit you for Ivy admissions.

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

2/3/12

Your view of getting into ivy league schools is skewed by where you grew up (mine probably is as well). But this is inaccurate, someone can have amazing stats and work really hard in high school and not get into an ivy. Most of the people who attend the ivies are from new england/east coast/mid-atlantic area (Where these colleges are located). This gives you a huge advantage over kids from other parts of the country.
It's all about where you grew up. I have friends who were the top students at large competitive schools here in the midwest and had some of the best stats(valedictorian, top test scores) in the state and were rejected from ivies. I do not know a single person who go's to an ivy, but I know plenty at northwestern/umich.
Also, for those who weren't from the city and were stuck in some small rural school are at an even bigger disadvantage because the quality of education at these schools are so poor you are never prepared for the standardized tests, but the top students from these schools go on to become top students at Big10 or 12 schools, and but were disregarded by the ivies.

In reply to Relinquis
2/3/12
Relinquis:

I might be missing out on some of the class/social structure/social mobility issues in with regards to Target Vs. Non-Target discussion in the USA.

I make the case that those structures didn't work out so well these last couple of years.

People from the guilded group like to point to non-targ trolls that lost some money at UBS and a couple of other firms. I like to point out that Target people collectively helped wreck the entire fucking global system. Look at it that way, and all of a sudden, it's very easy to see target schools for all that they are: a recruiting platform.

Everything else, as far as I'm concerned, is irrelevant.

Get busy living

2/3/12

LMAO @ anyone that has the time to worry about where every Tom, Dick and Harry went to school and why or how they got in. I went to a non-target and I could not care less how or why some of my peers/competition got into the schools that they did. At the end of the day it does not help or hurt me.

'We're bigger than U.S. Steel"

2/3/12

I had no idea what a target was when I applied to college. I didn't want anything to do with business, I wanted to study political science, get into state politics. All I knew is that going to a big Ivy League school didn't sound like a lot of fun, so I went to a smaller school. Turns out it was a non-target. Maybe I could've done "better" in some of your eyes, but turns out, if you're smart enough to pull a 4.0 and 1550+ on SAT in high school, you're probably smart enough to do well in college, and smart enough to be a banker, consultant, trader, whatever.

Every spot I take from a snotty HYPSW kid makes me a little happier.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of Starwood Points

2/3/12

there are three kinds of target kids

1. rich legacies - very few of these in %
2. middle class strivers who lied and cheated their way in
3. true talents - very few of these too

In reply to utexas2010
2/3/12
utexas2010:
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

Before you go around calling people retarded look in the mirror. I work and live in Manhattan and I have seen first hand the craziness and competition that goes into gaining admission to a Pre-K Private Prep program. From coworkers with toddlers to neighbors, the competition is fierce. I was told last week by a coworker that his kid was recently denied admission to a private 25K/Year school (for a 4 year old!!!) due to the lottery system and pre-admission testing they used. To top it off, this school GUARANTEES top tier college admission (how? I have no clue). It is absurd but sadly in Manhattan this private school shark infested, parent controlled pressure exists. One last thing- I overheard someone being ridiculed becuase they haven't started using flashcards with their 3 year old to prep for private school admissions- sickening.

Yes. You are retarded too. Even the Collegiate School, the school with the best college placement in the world in no way guarantees placement at a target. Heck, at even this best-in-the-world placement school, more than 70% end up at non/semi-targets.

The non-targets on this board are just upset they didn't work hard enough to get in. Simple as that. Especially illini, sorry to say.

And Euroazn, I remember you from CollegeConfidential when you applied ED to Penn. I had applied SCEA to Yale, and we had a conversation as well. I fucking remember you mentioning your shit GPA, and you knowing and regretting how you had wasted your high school years, and that Penn was just NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN FOR YOU. So, drop the fucking act that you're smarter than the kids at the Ivies you were rejected by.

2/3/12

I attend a non-target school and I have been contemplating whether I should transfer to a target school to give me a better chance at IB.

Here's what is preventing me from transferring: I have created a bond with various people and I don't really want to leave them; I am a part of our investment club and I want to improve the structure of the organization.

I have a decent chance of getting into GA tech if I apply, and it is a the closes university to where I attend

When luck shuts the door you gotta come in through the window - Doyle Brunson

In reply to farmerbob
2/3/12
farmerbob:

Your view of getting into ivy league schools is skewed by where you grew up (mine probably is as well). But this is inaccurate, someone can have amazing stats and work really hard in high school and not get into an ivy. Most of the people who attend the ivies are from new england/east coast/mid-atlantic area (Where these colleges are located). This gives you a huge advantage over kids from other parts of the country.
It's all about where you grew up. I have friends who were the top students at large competitive schools here in the midwest and had some of the best stats(valedictorian, top test scores) in the state and were rejected from ivies. I do not know a single person who go's to an ivy, but I know plenty at northwestern/umich.
Also, for those who weren't from the city and were stuck in some small rural school are at an even bigger disadvantage because the quality of education at these schools are so poor you are never prepared for the standardized tests, but the top students from these schools go on to become top students at Big10 or 12 schools, and but were disregarded by the ivies.

Number of high schools in the US: 15000 - 20000 depending on which source you use
Harvard annual freshman intake: 1600

The top student at every high school only has a 10% chance of getting in to Harvard, and 60% chance of getting into an ivy league school. That's why these anecdotal examples of top students at random schools not getting into ivys are really dumb. Even at that level, it's still competitive as hell.

In reply to ShreddiesBrah
2/3/12
Awon Eleyi Awon Eleyi Won Bad Gan:
farmerbob:

Your view of getting into ivy league schools is skewed by where you grew up (mine probably is as well). But this is inaccurate, someone can have amazing stats and work really hard in high school and not get into an ivy. Most of the people who attend the ivies are from new england/east coast/mid-atlantic area (Where these colleges are located). This gives you a huge advantage over kids from other parts of the country.
It's all about where you grew up. I have friends who were the top students at large competitive schools here in the midwest and had some of the best stats(valedictorian, top test scores) in the state and were rejected from ivies. I do not know a single person who go's to an ivy, but I know plenty at northwestern/umich.
Also, for those who weren't from the city and were stuck in some small rural school are at an even bigger disadvantage because the quality of education at these schools are so poor you are never prepared for the standardized tests, but the top students from these schools go on to become top students at Big10 or 12 schools, and but were disregarded by the ivies.

Number of high schools in the US: 15000 - 20000 depending on which source you use
Harvard annual freshman intake: 1600

The top student at every high school only has a 10% chance of getting in to Harvard, and 60% chance of getting into an ivy league school. That's why these anecdotal examples of top students at random schools not getting into ivys are really dumb. Even at that level, it's still competitive as hell.

This. And often the Ivies prefer the sal or the kid ranked fourth over the val, because overall they might be more accomplished.

I understand that the non-targets in IB are just as smart, if not more, than the kids at targets. But to say that it is not immensely difficult to get into a target in the first place, or that you just "chose" not to attend because of girls, tuition (lol yeah, right! Over 60% of kids at my Ivy are on financial aid, with the average package being over 35,000 dollars), or any other dumb reason you make up to feel good is just sad.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread. +1 for OP.

In reply to seedy underbelly
2/3/12
seedy underbelly:

The non-targets on this board are just upset they didn't work hard enough to get in. Simple as that. Especially illini, sorry to say.

For the record, I did get in. Had a really strong profile from Boy Scouts/ Summer Camp leadership, Water Polo, test scores, and academics. The problem for me was that I could not afford to go. Heck, I couldn't even afford to pay out-of-state tuition.

It's not that big of a deal for me anymore. I've kinda moved beyond my undergrad education and now people see me as options quant at (insert BB here). I'm the only guy doing my job who doesn't have an MPhil or PhD. But I remember what it was like to do battle against kids with Harvard on their resumes- and I remember what it was like to BEAT them too.

My goal these days is to make sure that the bridge that I crossed gets wider. That as a bank, we focus on more recent and relevant information on resumes and that we bring in the candidates who can do the best job. Some of them will be ivy leaguers, but the fact is that there are many state schoolers out there who can do a much better job than ivy leaguers.

Heck, even Princeton concedes that on a defacto basis. Last year, state school undergrads outnumbered domestic top-20 private school degrees at The Bendheim Center, arguably the most selective professional finance program in the country.

I love the fact that I get to sit on the other side now and root for the state schoolers. The deck- between career services, exposure to major banks, and attitudes on the street- is stacked against them but more and more of them succeed every year. So don't feel threated by our success- be happy for us. Our success is the country's success. We're a cross section of middle-class America and we're helping to improve economic mobility one application at a time. :-)

In reply to Relinquis
2/3/12
Relinquis:

Ok... A few things from someone who has had the responsibility of hiring people to invest... their mistakes mean that we lose money:

Background:
- We have both targets (LSE/Oxbridge/Columbia/HBS) and non-targets at our firm etc... I attended a non-target.
- Young guys at our firm are experienced. We rarely higher out of undergrad.

Hiring people:
- Performance over anything. This is the driver of all our hiring. We want people who will deliver results. You need to demonstrate this.
- Experience trumps all as far as it indicates good performance. Experience trumps all as far as it indicates good performance. Experience trumps all as far as it indicates good performance.
- No, that's not a typo.
- Our hiring: I've hired guys with undergrad degrees from state schools in the mid west over Columbia students with Masters degrees in our sector. Why? because the state school guy had superior experience and killed the interview/model. i.e. the total package demonstrated higher performance.
- Signalling performance: As a DISTANT second to experience, top schools (i.e. MIT/Ivy/Oxbridge/LSE, etc...) help signal that a candidate cares about performance. Other proxies include high GPAs, etc...
- Network: Personal recommendations / referrals are actually superior to brand name schools for getting in front of us if we value the person making the referral. Why? Because the other guys is putting his reputation on the line.
- Target appeal: All brand name schools candidates get the benefit of the doubt, regardless of the interviewers school.
- Supporting your school. My colleagues were very clear about trying to interview candidates that had attended their same school. This applied to big state school colleagues and Oxbridge folks.

Lessons: So what's the conclusion?
- Performance above all. Everything else is either a proxy for this or an enabler of this
- Attending a Target is a good thing. I would only go to a Target for my masters as the branding is very useful. No target bashing here.
- Hiring Targets is a good thing, in so far as you can't determine performance in another manner. It's a proxy. You might have to teach them how to make money if they don't have the experience.
- Hiring high performing/potential non-targets is a very smart thing to do.
- Do your homework and work on yourself. You will lose out to the non-target guy if you screw up on our tests/interview or if you didn't articulate your ability to help us make money.
- Make friends and work on your network/relationships. Lots of buyside jobs are unadvertised and your networks is the distribution channel for your skills/resume.

Disclaimer: I might be missing out on some of the class/social structure/social mobility issues in with regards to Target Vs. Non-Target discussion in the USA.

SB. This is exactly right.

Man made money, money never made the man

2/3/12

It's becoming even more apparent to me that the average age of WSO posters is very young.

Because personally, I'm 25 and I don't really give a shit where you went to school. Unless we have a direct connection with someone, it's not like I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because you went to Harvard.

This is petty, senseless shit that little boys jerk off to behind their computers. In the real world your education is of course notable, but when it comes down to it, those in power don't care about your education; they care about the results. The results being who you are as a person and what you can produce.

I see a lot of ignorant commentary thrown around on WSO about targets/non-targets as if you can determine who a person is by where they went to school. It's naive and it's non-existant in the real world. So we need to end it here.

I've had the opportunity to meet guys from WSO in real life, and their school has never mattered to me. Their personality and work ethic was never reliant on what school they attended.

I'm much more interested in their personal life, their hobbies, their one night stands, their work experience, etc. To me, stereotyping someone based on Target/Non-Target is the definition of shallow.

In reply to rothyman
2/3/12
2/3/12

I find it pretty darned funny that people are giving Firefighter SBs for his post- which is essentially a charicature of the views some folks have about prestige. It's kinda like watching a Republican cheering for Stephen Colbert when he says he wants a base on the surface of Jupiter.

In reply to IlliniProgrammer
2/3/12
IlliniProgrammer:

I find it pretty darned funny that people are giving Firefighter SBs for his post- which is essentially a charicature of the views some folks have about prestige. It's kinda like watching a Republican cheering for Stephen Colbert when he says he wants a base on the surface of Jupiter.

+1

In reply to seedy underbelly
2/3/12
seedy underbelly:
utexas2010:
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

Before you go around calling people retarded look in the mirror. I work and live in Manhattan and I have seen first hand the craziness and competition that goes into gaining admission to a Pre-K Private Prep program. From coworkers with toddlers to neighbors, the competition is fierce. I was told last week by a coworker that his kid was recently denied admission to a private 25K/Year school (for a 4 year old!!!) due to the lottery system and pre-admission testing they used. To top it off, this school GUARANTEES top tier college admission (how? I have no clue). It is absurd but sadly in Manhattan this private school shark infested, parent controlled pressure exists. One last thing- I overheard someone being ridiculed becuase they haven't started using flashcards with their 3 year old to prep for private school admissions- sickening.

Yes. You are retarded too. Even the Collegiate School, the school with the best college placement in the world in no way guarantees placement at a target. Heck, at even this best-in-the-world placement school, more than 70% end up at non/semi-targets.

The non-targets on this board are just upset they didn't work hard enough to get in. Simple as that. Especially illini, sorry to say.

And Euroazn, I remember you from CollegeConfidential when you applied ED to Penn. I had applied SCEA to Yale, and we had a conversation as well. I fucking remember you mentioning your shit GPA, and you knowing and regretting how you had wasted your high school years, and that Penn was just NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN FOR YOU. So, drop the fucking act that you're smarter than the kids at the Ivies you were rejected by.

LOL. Seedy becoming a rough boy.

2/3/12

^^^ Seedy is the Republican who is mistakenly supporting a troll charicaturing the ivy league. Kinda like a Republican mistakenly believing that Stephen Colbert is serious and cheering for him.

You two have some sort of inferiority complex about jobs or something. Everyone working in industry (including several hiring managers) keeps saying that it doesn't matter too much where you go to school and non-targets have been making serious gains over the past few years; you guys (still in college) keep insisting that where you went to school matters. And when your assumptions get challenged by folks in the actual know, you respond with ad-hominems. It's like Isaac Newton, Galileo, and Copernicus trying to explain Heliocentrism to a bunch of Catholic nuns and having food thrown at them in response. Maybe the nuns just weren't mature enough to listen, consider the facts, and decide whether or not they wanted to reject the thesis and offer a counterargument.

The earth is round, we are not the center of the universe, and while target school vs. non-target carries some weight in careers, it is not all that important and it is diminishing in importance. If you disagree, that's fine; but let's have a real conversation rather than a foodfight.

2/3/12

If going to a top college doesn't give you much career advantage as you claim, then why do some kids try hard to get into top schools?

Are you seriously arguing that job opportunities out of Harvard aren't any better than job opportunities out of Arizona State?

2/3/12

Here is a point I have not seen being made that I believe needs to be said: when coming out of HS, there are tons of highly qualified candidates who go to TOP universities that do not happen to be targets for banks. For example, I know from my HS, that there were a lot of people with 3.8+ 2250+ and great ECs that were encouraged to apply to and attended top 20 universities like Wash U, Vanderbilt, Emory, and Johns Hopkins. How were these people, who probably did not know what ibanking even was, supposed to know that their excellent schools would not be targets for banks?

In reply to IlliniProgrammer
2/3/12
IlliniProgrammer:

^^^ Seedy is the Republican who is mistakenly supporting a troll charicaturing the ivy league. Kinda like a Republican mistakenly believing that Stephen Colbert is serious and cheering for him.

You two have some sort of inferiority complex about jobs or something. Everyone working in industry (including several hiring managers) keeps saying that it doesn't matter too much where you go to school and non-targets have been making serious gains over the past few years; you guys (still in college) keep insisting that where you went to school matters. And when your assumptions get challenged by folks in the actual know, you respond with ad-hominems. It's like Isaac Newton, Galileo, and Copernicus trying to explain Heliocentrism to a bunch of Catholic nuns and having food thrown at them in response. Maybe the nuns just weren't mature enough to listen, consider the facts, and decide whether or not they wanted to reject the thesis and offer a counterargument.

The earth is round, we are not the center of the universe, and while target school vs. non-target carries some weight in careers, it is not all that important and it is diminishing in importance. If you disagree, that's fine; but let's have a real conversation rather than a foodfight.

I, too, don't care where you went to school. I've mentioned this before, the boutique I will be interning at this summer is overwhelmingly non-target. Does that detract from the success or ability of everyone working there? Absolutely not. In Analyst classes, often-times the most capable, according to seniors in my college, are students from UVA, NYU, Berkeley.

What I do have a problem with is whiny, having-achieved-nothing non-target kids ranting on about how they're "just as smart" or "how they had gotten in but decided not to go because the girls weren't to their liking" (yeah, ok, stud) or "how the Ivies are just rich-kid schools where anyone who went to a private school can get in" when the majority at even the best-in-the-world school for college placement end up at non/semi-targets.

So, stop with the nonsense that I have a superiority complex. I don't. At interviews if I see a non-target kid, I immediately assume him/her to be the best prepared because it would have taken him/her a whole lot more to have gotten to that round. I only have a problem with non-targets whining and bitching about "how easy it is to get into a target if you're rich" or "how easy it is to get an interview at a target" (yeah, how about you try competing against the best from around the world at an Ivy, when you couldn't even compete against the best in your own fucking high school to get in in the first place).

I sincerely apologize for the harsh tone, but it had to be said.

2/3/12

You mention how getting into Harvard is not based on your merit, but more so on having the 'right' or 'elite' parents. Then you go on to keep saying how going to a target school doesn't make much difference in your career. And, you mentioned how any kid with proper tutoring can get rock solid SAT and hence, anyone from a wealthy family background can get into a top Ivy.

Your remarks are not only very controversial, but rather just... irrational. Are you seriously arguing that the job opportunities available to Harvard or Princeton kids aren't any better than the job opportunities present to students at Arizona State University?? Last time I checked, employers like McKinsey, Goldman IBD, or even Wells Fargo IBD don't recruit at schools like Arizona State. At Harvard, in good economy about half the graduates go on to finance/ consulting, and many others go to top law or med schools.

And, dude, I know a TON of kids from rich background that never cracked 2000 on SAT despite months of tutoring and studying. If you are dumb, lazy, or lack ambition, sorry no matter who your parents are, you aren't going to suddenly end up with 2400 on SAT and get into Harvard. I went to the richest high school district in Midwest and most of kids from my high school went to schools like UIUC, Wisconsin, or Indiana. Many from my high school, despite having 'elite' parents, never even got even close to sniffing a letter of acceptance to any Ivy school, let alone Northwestern.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/3/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

You mention how getting into Harvard is not based on your merit, but more so on having the 'right' or 'elite' parents. Then you go on to keep saying how going to a target school doesn't make much difference in your career. And, you mentioned how any kid with proper tutoring can get rock solid SAT and hence, anyone from a wealthy family background can get into a top Ivy.

Well, again, my experience was that I took a prep class and got a perfect score on the SATs along with approximately 500 other kids in the country that year. And I went to Illinois and most of the kids I met there were smarter than me. But SATs aren't ONLY what gets you into Ivy League schools. It's experiences in HS (which again, mommy and daddy can pay for), and most importantly, tuition.

If your family makes more than $500K, paying for school is easy. Same with your family making less than $50K. If your family makes somewhere in between, it gets very expensive.

Your remarks are not only very controversial, but rather just... irrational. Are you seriously arguing that the job opportunities available to Harvard or Princeton kids aren't any better than the job opportunities present to students at Arizona State University??

I can't speak for Arizona, but we had GS IBD, McKinsey, Getco, Citadel, DE Shaw, etc. recruit at Illinois's engineering program. It was tougher than it would have been at Harvard, but for a smart person, it was totally doable.

And, dude, I know a TON of kids from rich background that never cracked 2000 on SAT despite months of tutoring and studying. If you are dumb, lazy, or lack ambition, sorry no matter who your parents are, you aren't going to suddenly end up with 2400 on SAT and get into Harvard. I went to the richest high school district in Midwest and most of kids from my high school went to schools like UIUC, Wisconsin, or Indiana. Many from my high school, despite having 'elite' parents, never even got even close to sniffing a letter of acceptance to any Ivy school, let alone Northwestern.

So in other words, you went to New Trier High School. Had you studied engineering at Illinois and saved $30K/year in-state, you'd have been surrounded by kids who scored an average of 33.5 on their ACTs. Beyond that, getting a 2400 on your SAT comes down to studying and luck. Instead you're at Cornell with a similar class and smaller classrooms.

My view is that there's smart people everywhere and a non-target like Illinois is indicative of how things work at many other non-targets. And for a bright candidate, it doesn't matter where you went to school.

You sure you don't want to transfer back to UIUC? Ask your parents to pay you half the difference on tuition- $60K invested at 5% dividends means $250/month of income.

What I do have a problem with is whiny, having-achieved-nothing non-target kids ranting on about how they're "just as smart" or "how they had gotten in but decided not to go because the girls weren't to their liking" (yeah, ok, stud) or "how the Ivies are just rich-kid schools where anyone who went to a private school can get in" when the majority at even the best-in-the-world school for college placement end up at non/semi-targets.

1.) I thought you had walked away from this thread.
2.) It's not really that big of a deal though. Cornell and Princeton are really no better than schools like Berkeley and Georgia Tech. They just cost more and have smaller classes. My concern is when people think target school kids have- or should have- an advantage. The fact is that most of the advantage is diminishing. And if you eliminate the target school system at banks, you eliminate the whining.

In reply to seedy underbelly
2/3/12
seedy underbelly:

I, too, don't care where you went to school. I've mentioned this before, the boutique I will be interning at this summer is overwhelmingly non-target. Does that detract from the success or ability of everyone working there? Absolutely not. In Analyst classes, often-times the most capable, according to seniors in my college, are students from UVA, NYU, Berkeley.

What I do have a problem with is whiny, having-achieved-nothing non-target kids ranting on about how they're "just as smart" or "how they had gotten in but decided not to go because the girls weren't to their liking" (yeah, ok, stud) or "how the Ivies are just rich-kid schools where anyone who went to a private school can get in" when the majority at even the best-in-the-world school for college placement end up at non/semi-targets.

So, stop with the nonsense that I have a superiority complex. I don't. At interviews if I see a non-target kid, I immediately assume him/her to be the best prepared because it would have taken him/her a whole lot more to have gotten to that round. I only have a problem with non-targets whining and bitching about "how easy it is to get into a target if you're rich" or "how easy it is to get an interview at a target" (yeah, how about you try competing against the best from around the world at an Ivy, when you couldn't even compete against the best in your own fucking high school to get in in the first place).

I sincerely apologize for the harsh tone, but it had to be said.

Again, you're still stuck on this whole target/non-target culture/mentality. In all honesty most guys in the financial industry don't even know what it means when you say target/non-target. This is a WSO mentality, not one of finance.

I assume you're younger and your alma-matter is uber important to you still. Don't get me wrong, I love my school and I love to tell people that I love it. However as you get farther into the industry, it becomes less of a benchmark and/or talking point. What starts to matter is who you are as a person, who you know, and what you have done. No one really cares what your GPA was at Harvard unless they are insecure as well.

Even the higher ups who DID go to top universities could care less if you went to a top college or not. Unless you went to the same school, they're going to judge you on YOU. Trust me, coming from an average school, I would definitely notice if hiring managers and directors looked down on me for not attending Harvard. BUT they don't.

Again, the target/non-target mentality is a WSO mentality. And that is all.

EDIT: obviously in recruiting, school does play an important role (however there are ways around this). However your first gig in finance is a SMALL part of your career. as time goes on, school matters less and less.

2/3/12
firefighter:

One thing that's very disheartening to read on this forum is the bias against kids from targets. Apparently, kids from targets just *happened* to be privileged enough to get into a good school while kids from non-targets unfairly get screwed. I'm sorry, but when did working hard in high school and middle school become "privileged"? I know some outstanding kids at non-targets and mediocre kids at targets, but the kids here who attack targets on here honestly sound like OWS. 99% of the spots in banking are filled with 1% of schools!!!!!!

Listen: If I'm looking at Harvard 3.6 Poli Sci with no real internships, and a Non-Target 3.6 Finance with boutique IBD internships, I'm taking the former ALL DAY (assuming that he's sociable, knows what IBD is, etc.). Why? Because I know that Harvard kid was motivated enough to spend 4 years in high school working his ass off, getting 2300+ SATs and 3.9+ GPAs and leading sports teams while the Non-Target kid made some cold-calls to random boutiques and got lucky. Yes, you can argue the whole "can't afford Harvard" or "rich parents made donations" angle (and I ABSOLUTELY sympathize with the kids who couldn't afford to go to Stern or GTown or some other low-financial aid school), but generally speaking, most targets are actually incredibly generous with financial aid and development cases make up a tiny portion of the population (and those kids get hooked up anyway). In fact coming from a poor background helps you get into Harvard.

Just my rant. To quote someone from this forum, "it's not a silver spoon if you've earned it." I'm not bashing non-target kids in anyway (the ones I've met in banking are terrific), just the ones who paint the Ivies with the same broad stroke.

tl'dr

I banana back

2/3/12

It's funny I go to a top semi-target / target and the kids walking around with their Exeter / Andover / Kent shirts are in the same place as the kids who went to public schools. The same is true for IB. Once you get in, everyone's in the same boat. Your parents connections or your top-tier education are not going to save you from having to perform. The people who do care either have an ego issue or are insecure.

I will say that EVERY student at a top-tier school I know has largely deserved it, either through athletic work, intellectual achievement, or all around being a good person. I will also say that I know some very, very smart people at state schools who, for whatever reason, did not end up at Ivy / Ivy equivalent schools.

In reply to seedy underbelly
2/3/12
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

WTF.... Do you and Sexy_like_enrique really think that going to elite prep school doesn't give its students a ANY advantage in getting into elite American colleges?

Nobody says elite private prep schools guarantee admission, and they don't. But these prep schools are basically your "target" schools for Ivies admission recruiting. For example, not everyone at Wharton get to go to BBs, elite boutiques, HFs and PEs out of college, but a descent number of them do compared to the rest of the universities in US and preferences are given to them over non-targets. It's the same shit at prep-school level: Not everyone at Andover or Harvard west-lake go to Ivies but a significant percentage of them get into elite colleges. And not just American private schools feeds students into American universities, a lot of elite prep schools kids from all around the world feed their students into top American colleges . Ever heard of the G20 schools? I bet you have not. These schools take prides in who sends the most students into HYP. And you and Sexy_like_Enrique refuse to acknowledge that going to private schools doesn't give any advantages in getting into Ivies?

Going to elite private junior schools does give a HUGE advantage for its students to go to Ivies and top LACs. You guys might be smart and likeable on other issues but on this simple matter you sounded so fucking retarded and ignorant.

BTW: some prep schools at kindergarten level is harder to gain admission than Harvard (source: Too Big To Fail).

2/4/12

I'd actually argue that a lot of the elite prep schools are better to go to than the actual colleges everyone is focused on bc they are even more concentrated with wealth and power.

Let's be honest, if a middle-class provincial like me can get into Wharton along with the other prols, it can't be that selective can it?

One of my friends from Wharton went to one of the aforementioned high schools in the LA region and he's become friends with the kids of the Schwarzeneggers, Halliburton's, etc.

I'm not joking when I say that since I've moved to LA, the lowest net worth out of any person I've met through him has been ~$50MM.

2/4/12

I'm just amused that all these kids are desperately trying to defend the fact that they are better because they went to a target, but I am the guy who is interviewing them, and I likely paid 1/4 to 1/3 what they paid for their education.

I'm in Illini's camp on this one... if you're good, you're good. Go to a flagship state school, chase girls, invest the saved money, and buy yourself a rusty honda. I can tell you for damn sure I'm glad I don't have the additional burden of another $60k in debt for going to an ivy because IT GETS YOU THE SAME job... and after that it doesn't matter... you guys can sing the merits of going to Harvard to the high heavens, and I don't deny that it's a phenomenal school... but you don't really have any leg to stand on when you try to prove you're better than my friend who went to my university, then GS FIG, then a Megafund... AND he saved a boatload of cash on his tuition... all you prestige whores who actually care about Megafunds would love to be in his situation, and he did it without saddling tons of debt.

The point is, go to a school because you love the school and you are studying something that fulfills you... but don't get into an intellectual circle-jerk about how going to an ivy makes you better qualified than someone who went to a school that YOU perceive to be less prestigious, because they will likely be beating you out in interviews and then you will only be left with your perceived prestige to keep you warm at night while you whisper Veritas between stifled sobs.

In reply to humble_dude
2/4/12
humble_dude:
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

WTF.... Do you and Sexy_like_enrique really think that going to elite prep school doesn't give its students a ANY advantage in getting into elite American colleges?

Nobody says elite private prep schools guarantee admission, and they don't. But these prep schools are basically your "target" schools for Ivies admission recruiting. For example, not everyone at Wharton get to go to BBs, elite boutiques, HFs and PEs out of college, but a descent number of them do compared to the rest of the universities in US and preferences are given to them over non-targets. It's the same shit at prep-school level: Not everyone at Andover or Harvard west-lake go to Ivies but a significant percentage of them get into elite colleges. And not just American private schools feeds students into American universities, a lot of elite prep schools kids from all around the world feed their students into top American colleges . Ever heard of the G20 schools? I bet you have not. These schools take prides in who sends the most students into HYP. And you and Sexy_like_Enrique refuse to acknowledge that going to private schools doesn't give any advantages in getting into Ivies?

Going to elite private junior schools does give a HUGE advantage for its students to go to Ivies and top LACs. You guys might be smart and likeable on other issues but on this simple matter you sounded so fucking retarded and ignorant.

BTW: some prep schools at kindergarten level is harder to gain admission than Harvard (source: Too Big To Fail).

Dude, stop crying about the fact that you couldn't afford to attend a fancy private prep high school. Plenty of kids I know at Ivies never breathed an ounce of air inside a fancy private high school, yet they made it to Ivies just fine.

You can go to the shittiest public high school there is in the country and if you have top SAT scores and good class rank to boot, you are a competitive candidate to Ivies.

2/4/12

So in other words, you went to New Trier High School. Had you studied engineering at Illinois and saved $30K/year in-state, you'd have been surrounded by kids who scored an average of 33.5 on their ACTs. Beyond that, getting a 2400 on your SAT comes down to studying and luck. Instead you're at Cornell with a similar class and smaller classrooms.

My view is that there's smart people everywhere and a non-target like Illinois is indicative of how things work at many other non-targets. And for a bright candidate, it doesn't matter where you went to school.

You sure you don't want to transfer back to UIUC? Ask your parents to pay you half the difference on tuition- $60K invested at 5% dividends means $250/month of income.

I suck at math or science, and would have gotten crushed had I gone to UIUC's engineering program.

I chose Cornell because I could major in Econ and still end up with decent recruiting opportunities. Plus, I am not attending with sticker price. I get decent financial aid from Cornell, since I have 3 other siblings, 2 of which are in college now.

And, LOL. I am about to graduate from college in like 3 months, so no, I am not transferring to UIUC.

I can't speak for Arizona, but we had GS IBD, McKinsey, Getco, Citadel, DE Shaw, etc. recruit at Illinois's engineering program. It was tougher than it would have been at Harvard, but for a smart person, it was totally doable.

UIUC engineering isn't really a 'non target'... regardless, did those employers only recruit at UIUC engineering, or did they also recruit school-wide?

Well, again, my experience was that I took a prep class and got a perfect score on the SATs along with approximately 500 other kids in the country that year. And I went to Illinois and most of the kids I met there were smarter than me. But SATs aren't ONLY what gets you into Ivy League schools. It's experiences in HS (which again, mommy and daddy can pay for), and most importantly, tuition.

If your family makes more than $500K, paying for school is easy. Same with your family making less than $50K. If your family makes somewhere in between, it gets very expensive.

My dad makes more than 250k a year and I still get decent financial aid. I have 2 other siblings in college and 1 older sibling that got MBA recently. All these factors were considered and I don't pay sticker price. True, I still pay more than what I would pay for UIUC in-state tuition, but additional cost isn't outrageous.

It's like when a consumer buys BMW 5 series over Honda Accord despite 30k differences in net prices, that doesn't mean that particular consumer in question is dumb. It just means for that person, extra 30k is worth it for the brand of BMW, enjoyment of the driving experience, etc.

If price dictates every consumption behavior among human beings, we should not be seeing any luxury cars, luxury watches, or luxury clothing on streets. Yet, truth of matter is, if you go visit an affluent neighborhood, you see Mercedes', BMW's, Audi's, and Porsche's left and right and you get to see more luxury cars than those rusty Honda's that you speak of. Hell, in my high school, I knew a couple of kids who drove Ferrari's. Does that make them dumb? No. It just means they can afford to live that way and extra bucks for this baller lifestyle is worth it for them, rather than saving that extra cash and investing them for profit.

2.) It's not really that big of a deal though. Cornell and Princeton are really no better than schools like Berkeley and Georgia Tech. They just cost more and have smaller classes. My concern is when people think target school kids have- or should have- an advantage. The fact is that most of the advantage is diminishing. And if you eliminate the target school system at banks, you eliminate the whining.

LOL... Wait, say that again? You really think Princeton = Georgia Tech??

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/4/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
humble_dude:
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

WTF.... Do you and Sexy_like_enrique really think that going to elite prep school doesn't give its students a ANY advantage in getting into elite American colleges?

Nobody says elite private prep schools guarantee admission, and they don't. But these prep schools are basically your "target" schools for Ivies admission recruiting. For example, not everyone at Wharton get to go to BBs, elite boutiques, HFs and PEs out of college, but a descent number of them do compared to the rest of the universities in US and preferences are given to them over non-targets. It's the same shit at prep-school level: Not everyone at Andover or Harvard west-lake go to Ivies but a significant percentage of them get into elite colleges. And not just American private schools feeds students into American universities, a lot of elite prep schools kids from all around the world feed their students into top American colleges . Ever heard of the G20 schools? I bet you have not. These schools take prides in who sends the most students into HYP. And you and Sexy_like_Enrique refuse to acknowledge that going to private schools doesn't give any advantages in getting into Ivies?

Going to elite private junior schools does give a HUGE advantage for its students to go to Ivies and top LACs. You guys might be smart and likeable on other issues but on this simple matter you sounded so fucking retarded and ignorant.

BTW: some prep schools at kindergarten level is harder to gain admission than Harvard (source: Too Big To Fail).

Dude, stop crying about the fact that you couldn't afford to attend a fancy private prep high school. Plenty of kids I know at Ivies never breathed an ounce of air inside a fancy private high school, yet they made it to Ivies just fine.

You can go to the shittiest public high school there is in the country and if you have top SAT scores and good class rank to boot, you are a competitive candidate to Ivies.

I am not crying about not being able to attend a pre school. I am talking about someone denying the fact that going to the prep school give you a big advantage in getting into elite universities. So just stay on the topic. I am not saying it's a bad practice. Parents do send their kids to prep schools for the better prospects of getting into a top university.

But honestly, West Point is the best imo :)

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/4/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
humble_dude:
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

WTF.... Do you and Sexy_like_enrique really think that going to elite prep school doesn't give its students a ANY advantage in getting into elite American colleges?

Nobody says elite private prep schools guarantee admission, and they don't. But these prep schools are basically your "target" schools for Ivies admission recruiting. For example, not everyone at Wharton get to go to BBs, elite boutiques, HFs and PEs out of college, but a descent number of them do compared to the rest of the universities in US and preferences are given to them over non-targets. It's the same shit at prep-school level: Not everyone at Andover or Harvard west-lake go to Ivies but a significant percentage of them get into elite colleges. And not just American private schools feeds students into American universities, a lot of elite prep schools kids from all around the world feed their students into top American colleges . Ever heard of the G20 schools? I bet you have not. These schools take prides in who sends the most students into HYP. And you and Sexy_like_Enrique refuse to acknowledge that going to private schools doesn't give any advantages in getting into Ivies?

Going to elite private junior schools does give a HUGE advantage for its students to go to Ivies and top LACs. You guys might be smart and likeable on other issues but on this simple matter you sounded so fucking retarded and ignorant.

BTW: some prep schools at kindergarten level is harder to gain admission than Harvard (source: Too Big To Fail).

Dude, stop crying about the fact that you couldn't afford to attend a fancy private prep high school. Plenty of kids I know at Ivies never breathed an ounce of air inside a fancy private high school, yet they made it to Ivies just fine.

You can go to the shittiest public high school there is in the country and if you have top SAT scores and good class rank to boot, you are a competitive candidate to Ivies.

I went to a wealthy public school, that was fairly strong academically (top 10 in the state), but had mediocre college placement. Of our top 10 of 400 graduating seniors all had SAT scores above 2200 and UW GPA's of 3.9 or above, all were enrolled in AP courses and had great EC's: sports, leadership, research,ect. Yet between the 10 of them only got into an Ivy (Cornell) and that was because of his art portfolio. In contrast at a prep school that many of my neighbors/friends attended everyone in the top 10 of 80 went to HYPMS with similar SAT scores and lesser EC's.. Chances are the that the top 10 from my public school were better qualified and more intelligent applicants, but they did not have a brand name prep school to rely on. This goes to show that there is much more that goes in to college admissions at Ivy's than just busing your butt in HS.

2/4/12

Sometimes, I don't understand most Americans.

Why are there always stupid discussions like "Target vs. Non-Target"?.

I know that some Asian countries like South Korea have copied the American educationsystem. There must be top schools, which must be well known worldwide.

Yes, Oxford and Cambridge are well respected by any other countries, but go to work in London (GS, JP Morgan, MS etc.). You will meet tons of people, who didn't go to Oxbridge.

But that system works!

Go to Germany. There are not really well known schools like Harvard. But go to work in Frankfurt.
Most of bankers didn't study at Harvard, Yale, MIt or whatever. Maybe, they are not smart enough, but they actually work as bankers and it works!!!!

I don't understand why Americans like to discriminate Non-Targets..

I am German and I am really proud of being German.
At least, it is fair in Germany.
Target or Non-Target...It is up to you and not to schools.

People, grow up!

In reply to Kuggi2011
2/4/12
Kuggi2011:

Sometimes, I don't understand most Americans.

Why are there always stupid discussions like "Target vs. Non-Target"?.

I know that some Asian countries like South Korea have copied the American educationsystem. There must be top schools, which must be well known worldwide.

Yes, Oxford and Cambridge are well respected by any other countries, but go to work in London (GS, JP Morgan, MS etc.). You will meet tons of people, who didn't go to Oxbridge.

But that system works!

Go to Germany. There are not really well known schools like Harvard. But go to work in Frankfurt.
Most of bankers didn't study at Harvard, Yale, MIt or whatever. Maybe, they are not smart enough, but they actually work as bankers and it works!!!!

I don't understand why Americans like to discriminate Non-Targets..

I am German and I am really proud of being German.
At least, it is fair in Germany.
Target or Non-Target...It is up to you and not to schools.

People, grow up!

America >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany.

That is all.

2/4/12

That is just an arrogant opinion without any useful arguments..

Just try to pay bills!

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
2/4/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
humble_dude:
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

WTF.... Do you and Sexy_like_enrique really think that going to elite prep school doesn't give its students a ANY advantage in getting into elite American colleges?

Nobody says elite private prep schools guarantee admission, and they don't. But these prep schools are basically your "target" schools for Ivies admission recruiting. For example, not everyone at Wharton get to go to BBs, elite boutiques, HFs and PEs out of college, but a descent number of them do compared to the rest of the universities in US and preferences are given to them over non-targets. It's the same shit at prep-school level: Not everyone at Andover or Harvard west-lake go to Ivies but a significant percentage of them get into elite colleges. And not just American private schools feeds students into American universities, a lot of elite prep schools kids from all around the world feed their students into top American colleges . Ever heard of the G20 schools? I bet you have not. These schools take prides in who sends the most students into HYP. And you and Sexy_like_Enrique refuse to acknowledge that going to private schools doesn't give any advantages in getting into Ivies?

Going to elite private junior schools does give a HUGE advantage for its students to go to Ivies and top LACs. You guys might be smart and likeable on other issues but on this simple matter you sounded so fucking retarded and ignorant.

BTW: some prep schools at kindergarten level is harder to gain admission than Harvard (source: Too Big To Fail).

Dude, stop crying about the fact that you couldn't afford to attend a fancy private prep high school. Plenty of kids I know at Ivies never breathed an ounce of air inside a fancy private high school, yet they made it to Ivies just fine.

You can go to the shittiest public high school there is in the country and if you have top SAT scores and good class rank to boot, you are a competitive candidate to Ivies.

Really? Do you know how many people graduating from Chicago Public High schools place in the top 95th percentile for SAT/ACT scores? You honestly think someone who goes to one of the shittiest public HS in the country can even get close to a top SAT score? These schools are understaffed with unqualified teachers that are going up against obstacles that not even the most qualified and high spirited teacher could deal with. Kids who are talented enough to go on to do great things succumb to a number of factors or else they end up having to commute to the nearest college campus to take a Calc I course or Physics course because their curriculum doesn't even go "that high".

Sorry but to act like everyone has a fair shot to get into an Ivy League school or even college is unbelievably ignorant. Try going to a HS that only sent 30% of students to College instead of the unfortunate posters above who only sent 30% of their Private School class to Ivy League schools. Or better yet, try a HS with only a 30% graduation rate.

2/4/12

I love these threads. Look, the reality is this: if you're a standout, it's not going to matter if you went to Harvard, or a great public university. I probably had visibility to 90% of the same opportunities as kids coming out of Harvard. The 10% I missed, I probably didn't give a shit about anyway. All the major banks, MBB, F500 competitive rotational gigs, etc. recruited at my school. All of my friends went on to top 5 Med / Law / MBA programs, and frankly, we all partied like rock stars in college. Lastly, exiting undergrad is just the first cut. You have 40 years of opportunity to distinguish yourself where it really matters - on the job. A few years out, nobody gives a shit where you went to school. If you're a rain maker, fuck everything else. If you're not a rain maker, that's on you, and stop whining about lack of opportunity.

2/4/12

My view is that your goals, whatever they might be, get exponentially harder to achieve the longer you wait. For a non-target competing for a top finance position, this means essentially starting from zero, while the target student has already put in the work to get their foot in the door.

I don't doubt the fact that the target student put in the work to get where they are, that's not what makes me angry. But as a non-target who secured a top-tier equity research offer, it pisses me off to no end when target students belittle the effort it takes to earn an offer without any OCR or alumni.

I didn't do shit in high school, had no drive, and no real idea what it meant to get into a great school. But once I figured out what I wanted to do, I had to work twice as hard to overcome the (earned) stigma of the non-target student. But now that I have an offer, I have to say it feels damn good knowing I only paid $20K for my education while my counterparts paid $200K for the same fuckin' thing.

2/4/12

My dad went to a complete 4th tier non-target. He got a job as an auditor at Big4 accounting after college, made it all the way to the senior manager at Big4, built some strong connections, and started his own audit/ tax shop.

He is very successful and makes much more money than many of target grads ever will. I agree that once you get your first job, where you got degree from doesn't mean shit.

However, it is important to note that in certain careers, such as Management Consulting, I-banking, or BigLaw, getting your ass in the door straight out of school is very hard to do without going to a target/ semi-target school.

In reply to ProspectiveMonkey
2/4/12
ProspectiveMonkey:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
humble_dude:
seedy underbelly:
ProspectiveMonkey:

I think that his, and most peoples reasoning for such a statement is pretty sound. I've even had a number of highly successful people who have already in a sense "made it" speak of such an established system. These are people making 7-8 figures in professional services (IB, Consulting, Law, F500 execs, etc...).

These people have said that they way to ensure their children's success is to get them into the best undergraduate programs (ivy) and that way even if they don't go on to some prestigious career path they have an advantage over pretty much everyone for other job types and volunteer work because of this "brand name" school. But here is the catch: how do you ensure your child gets into an ivy league school?

Well the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private high school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). How do you go about getting them into a private high school though?

Again, the answer is pretty simple. Get them into a private junior high/grade school (tuition $20,000-$80,000/yr). But again, how do we get them into that private grade school?

You can tell where I am going with this. Get them into private Kindergarten, Preschool and Daycare (all still at the same tuition level).

Obviously not everyone who attends an Ivy league goes through this same track but from my experience the Ivy coworkers almost always went to a private high schools (which I think for the most part can imply the rest of the formula took place in some way, shape or form) unless they have some miraculous story. The "higher-ups" that I've met 100% swear by this system and just a simple multiplication gets you a grand total of $300,000 - $1,200,000 before your child opens up a dorm door at their new Ivy college. In a way this argument helps to explain the increasing income/wealth disparity of our country. Kids lives are decided before they are in Preschool.

Are you retarded?

So, attending a private school gets you into an Ivy?! LOL. I guess that the nearly 100% of the kids at every typical Private HS, and about 80% of the kids at every elite Private school (just 5 or 6 elite schools, really) just lucked out by only getting into semi/non-targets, right?

WTF.... Do you and Sexy_like_enrique really think that going to elite prep school doesn't give its students a ANY advantage in getting into elite American colleges?

Nobody says elite private prep schools guarantee admission, and they don't. But these prep schools are basically your "target" schools for Ivies admission recruiting. For example, not everyone at Wharton get to go to BBs, elite boutiques, HFs and PEs out of college, but a descent number of them do compared to the rest of the universities in US and preferences are given to them over non-targets. It's the same shit at prep-school level: Not everyone at Andover or Harvard west-lake go to Ivies but a significant percentage of them get into elite colleges. And not just American private schools feeds students into American universities, a lot of elite prep schools kids from all around the world feed their students into top American colleges . Ever heard of the G20 schools? I bet you have not. These schools take prides in who sends the most students into HYP. And you and Sexy_like_Enrique refuse to acknowledge that going to private schools doesn't give any advantages in getting into Ivies?

Going to elite private junior schools does give a HUGE advantage for its students to go to Ivies and top LACs. You guys might be smart and likeable on other issues but on this simple matter you sounded so fucking retarded and ignorant.

BTW: some prep schools at kindergarten level is harder to gain admission than Harvard (source: Too Big To Fail).

Dude, stop crying about the fact that you couldn't afford to attend a fancy private prep high school. Plenty of kids I know at Ivies never breathed an ounce of air inside a fancy private high school, yet they made it to Ivies just fine.

You can go to the shittiest public high school there is in the country and if you have top SAT scores and good class rank to boot, you are a competitive candidate to Ivies.

Really? Do you know how many people graduating from Chicago Public High schools place in the top 95th percentile for SAT/ACT scores? You honestly think someone who goes to one of the shittiest public HS in the country can even get close to a top SAT score? These schools are understaffed with unqualified teachers that are going up against obstacles that not even the most qualified and high spirited teacher could deal with. Kids who are talented enough to go on to do great things succumb to a number of factors or else they end up having to commute to the nearest college campus to take a Calc I course or Physics course because their curriculum doesn't even go "that high".

Sorry but to act like everyone has a fair shot to get into an Ivy League school or even college is unbelievably ignorant. Try going to a HS that only sent 30% of students to College instead of the unfortunate posters above who only sent 30% of their Private School class to Ivy League schools. Or better yet, try a HS with only a 30% graduation rate.

You completely missed the point. I said, if a guy is smart enough to get a top SAT score and do well in school, the fact that he went to some shitty public high school won't hold him from getting into an Ivy college.

There is a fuck TON of kids at my ivy who never went to private high schools (myself included). I guess if you are dumb and can't get a good SAT score and do well on your own, maybe going to a fancy prep school can help you get into a top college.

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