"Your Father practically owns the company. You can do anything you like."
Would you take a position at a bank if one of the main reasons you received the offer was because your Dad or Mom was in a position of power at the firm and made it happen?
There are so many conversations and discussions out there stressing to hopeful monkeys the importance of networking and building relationships with people who work in the industry you want to break into, so when recruiting season comes around there is someone on the inside to vouch for you, and maybe quicken your process by a step or two.
But lets say, for example,that you have a Dad who is a Partner, or even a C-level Exec at Goldman Sachs. Finance and investment baking is still what you want to do with your life, but granted you made good grades and didn't fuck around too much in College, your Dad could land you a guaranteed FT analyst position in your group of choice. You will probably even have expedited career progression as well.
Sounds like a dream come, right? But what I'm wondering is how many of you would actually take that offer and be proud of it? Unless there was an arrangement between you and your Dad that he would do this for you if you met a certain GPA or had a certain amount of IBD internships beforehand, then you could literally just fuck around every summer of your undergraduate life and then go on to making probably more money than 99% of your UG's class.
For me personally, I'm not sure if I would be able to look back on my life and know that the only reason I broke into Wall Street was because of my Dad. I'm not sure if I would want to be known as that guy who has a higher up Dad in the company that got him his job.
But still, when I take a step back and take a look I remember that the finance industry, especially investment banking, is a cutthroat place where people will do a lot of things to get ahead in the game, and so I suppose I would take an offer if it came to me in that way, but I would be damn sure to work harder than any other fucking person in the office to knock off any notions that I'm only here because of my Dad.
What about you guys?
If you have it, take full advantage of it. Fuck everyone else, you're looking out for yourself.
Damn straight
Take what you get. 7 billion people out of 8 billion would take any job that paid a tenth of the comp. Only the top 12.5% even care about what others think, and only the top 0.0000001% would care if offered an IB career about how it came about
There is no shame in seizing every opportunity to come out ahead, assuming there are no real negative outcomes for those around you.
I'd probably do an internship once, then go exploring the world / etc for the rest of my summers until FT because 'Why not?'. The world is based on nepotism, take advantage. Then once hired, yes, work the hardest and become the strongest.
There will always be a reason why you broke in. Maybe you went to a Harvard and only broke in because of the school's reputation, or maybe you went to a non-target and only broke in because some VP pushed your resume. Or maybe, your last name happens to be Blankfein. Who cares?!
Yes and no, I work in a Company my dad own, I was more or less brought into it from a very Young age, so I knew the game. But my full time job was because of my dad, the problem about getting a job like that is that you will never be one of the guys, and you Will have to work alot Harder than anyone else, plus being more humble. That said I don't regret one thing about it. I Should inform you that it's not in the US and not in a finance company, but I work alot with finance (investig the family money).
It's a job. There's nothing to be proud of.
Based on the original post I feel like you're tieing some weird element of self worth to getting a job in iBanking or whatever. Like if you fight for it and earn it that proves that you're a good person or something. The below paragraph is a good example I think:
"For me personally, I'm not sure if I would be able to look back on my life and know that the only reason I broke into Wall Street was because of my Dad. I'm not sure if I would want to be known as that guy who has a higher up Dad in the company that got him his job."
If, as a college kid, you expect to lay on your deathbed and reflect on the legitimacy of your entry-level finance job you should seek help. Ideally you'll, you know, have a wife you love and kids you're proud of. You'll live a whole life that you enjoy. Don't turn your life into a dick measuring contest where you struggle to somehow prove yourself by sacrificing everything for the next big job or promotion or whatever. You'll regret it. You'll wake up one day and you'll be fat, bald, and 50. Your kids will hate you, your wife will be fucking the pool boy, and you'll think "how the fuck did I get here. I'd give anything to start again." But you can't start again.
Nobody's keeping score but you. That business card you shedded blood, sweat, and tears to earn doesn't make you better than anybody. You're a dude that puts on your fucking tie and goes to work every day like everybody else.
If you think working in the financial industry is some kind of special club that you've proven yourself by scrapping your way into, you're in for a rude awakening. it's like you think that there's some sort of weird resume-based rite of passage that once you complete you're in the upper echelon of fancy respected people, and those who have not appeased the HR resume reading gods are heathens defiling your ritual. It's a fucking job. you go there, they cut you a check. Nobody cares why you're there, they care what you can do. Nobody is proud of you but your mother.
I'm not trying to argue a plot hole in a movie, its just what sparked my idea for the thread.
I really loved this post and agree 1000%. Silver banana'd.
A. High Finance is the most nepotistic industry out there. See: Chase Coleman
B. Wouldn't you do the same for your kid? (If your kid wanted to do IBD, etc)
I agree with this sentiment. I would make my kid work for EVERYTHING he/she got & that includes paying for school/their own stuff. Sure, presenting top notch opportunities would probably foster quality talent/experience in a kid exponentially faster than if they had to really earn it themselves but I couldn't say with a straight face I did a great job raising a kid. That being said I'm a 20 year old that won't be having a family for a long time.
Regarding the OP: Would you really want to pass up a job where you could easily make 100K plus with minimum effort your first year on the job? Hell, you would probably get a bigger bonus relative to the top guys just because you're the bosses kid.
Agree with this as well.
Yep, take the offer.
I am personally motivated to succeed, just so I can provide such an opportunity to my kid. I want to make sure my legacy is well protected.
A. true
B. I’d offer to refer them elsewhere first. That way, they’d have to work at least a bit for the job.
I'd probably feel guilty for a split second, or less. But then I'd be like: Fuck yeah!
As usual, it depends on your other options. If you have better offers, choose one of those. If this is your best offer, turning it down would be fucking stupid. If you have other similar offers, then there is probably place for debate.
Never. That is a dishonourable path. You shouldnt use your personal relationships that you have by complete chance to your advantage. Though I know too many people who have done this because of their families place that I don't blame them completely. Its part of a culture, and many are raised spoiled and feeling entitled. I know a kid for example who got shitty grades in school and spent all his time drinking. I think he was in some legal trouble as well. But after he graduated and hadn't made any effort to secure himself a job, daddy came to the rescue and brought him on at his hedge fund.
This said, I do have such a connection where I could ask for this sort of favor. However, I would never.
Dishonorable? Placing blame? Seriously?
Get off your high horse, man. Taking advantage of the opportunities you are given is not dishonorable, it's the intelligent thing to do. Why should an otherwise hard-working kid make life harder for him/herself just because his/her parent is in a position of power?
And, I've got news for you-- every single personal relationship you have is by complete chance. The relationships you made at your top undergrad were made because you were accepted to the school by chance. You may have worked hard to maximize your chances of being accepted, but don't ever think for a second there weren't hundreds or even thousands of kids who weren't accepted or didn't apply that were just as capable (or more capable) than you. And all the people you networked with who vouched for you only responded in the first place because they had some free time or were in a good mood at the moment. They could have just as easily ignored your email.
Simply taking a job from your dad is not dishonorable. Also, one does not find honor in doing things in the most difficult manner possible. That is called stupidity.
If its a privately run firm, I don't see it as being a big deal. If other people are relying on you and you're responsible to shareholders or people who gave you money, who you have a fiduciary responsibility to, then you should never knowingly for instance take on your son who has drinking problems/is a poor performer/otherwise wouldn't have gotten themselves in to the field on their own merit.
It is dishonorable to take the place of someone else who worked harder than you and is more deserving. I know that that isn't the common view in a lot of places, and that a lot of people here don't agree, but merit should be the only thing to judge whether someone is worthy of being brought in to a firm. If I had money with a fund that I found out was giving "special favors" to family members and otherwise compromising in any way the integrity of the firm, I would consider it negatively when thinking of whether to keep my money there.
And in terms of those people who worked harder and were more capable - they deserve to come out successful. If Im not successful, that's my fault. I shouldn't take away from their success because my father is an md, or something along those lines. The best should have the top places - what's wrong with that? And yes, I recognize that a lot of other people are doing it. That doesn't make it more right though. Not at all.
I am literally building my life to where I can own a company just so I can do this for my kids. I wish I could have it this way. There is nothing wrong with it and anyone who says that there is is jealous.
Just my opinion
Yeah that is perfectly fine, just don't be a dick about it. Don't pull a Bateman strolling in at 11:00 am, watch some TV then roll out for a 3 hour lunch and spend the rest of the afternoon having your secretary make your reservations while you listen to cassettes.
like everyone above said. no shame. take the job. you're asking if you should willingly handicap yourself to be on the level playing field with others when you have an inherent advantage? hell no.
Fuck pride. Take the path of least resistance.
Side note: I would NEVER go work for a place where the kid(s) of the boss had jobs there. That should be a very strong clue that you have a lower ceiling at that firm than the ones that don't actively counteract nepotism. I don't necessarily blame the kids for taking the spot, but I am disgusted by parents who do this. Truth be told, I have no respect for the kid either. Even if they were good enough to deserve the spot, I would never believe it. You better hope the old man never retires.
You must really loathe the likes of people like jared kuchner, ivanka trump, alex blankfein & the like.
Think about the amount of successful people that had immense help from their fathers and you will probably rethink your decision:
Mitt Romney George Bush Bill Ackman Donald Trump Bill Gates
Oh fuck this. I am hijacking the thread, lets keep building this list. I will start putting names together. Nepotism rules this world and I want to prove it.
Gates?
Didn't read the whole thread, but the big points have already been mentioned. Sooooooo many people would give a ton to get the job, so just like networking is plain smart, it is an intelligent decision for someone to take advantage of opportunities given to them.
Yeah, some other people might not LIKE that you got it and they might (as someone said) steer away from the company because of that, BUT this is YOUR LIFE. Don't make your decisions based off them. You want the best life for yourself not some random other guy searching for a job who lost interest in that one particular firm because you got the job from your dad.
Honestly, I too get annoyed by UNJUSTIFIED nepotism. Like others said, if some slacker gets a job because of family ties, that is not right. But a hard worker who was lucky enough to have family/friends help out is just smart.
The STRONG MAJORITY of people would take advantage of that situation, even if they disapprove of others doing it. I know I would!
Add Kennedy family to that list. The dad of JFK made big money off investments, including from what is now considered insider trading.
The list could go on for a while because..... TONS of people take advantage of the help they can get.
JP Morgan. I'm sure he or anyone else gave a damn that his father was already a successful financier when Morgan was revolutionizing the world while working for his father...
So you guys are showing that there are a lot of successful people whos parents were also successful, often who brought them up around the field which they later came to be employed in. How does this do anything to negatively affect the arguments that have been made here?
Just the OP, not the rest of the discussion.
I have also thought a lot about how Hollywood is equally as bad. Anyone else out there think that most actors are really untalented and overpaid? I swear that with a little practice I could ask as well as Clooney. How is that difficult? He landed his first gig because of his dad by the way... Also, look at Anderson Cooper, he is a fucking Vanderbilt.
Wall Street isn't rocket science. Anyone who is decently smart can make it in finance. The hardest part is getting in.
What arguments? That it's immoral, dishonorable and disrespectful to work your way into an industry through nepotism? By what standard? The Bible? Qu'ran? Torah? More than likely, it's immoral, dishonorable, etc. only in your own head.
Is your argument is that you should never try to appeal to anything that you could construe as being "moral" if it gets in the way of your advancement, because morals are inherently subjective, unless you're coming from a religious background? But even then, morals would only be correct because an objective moral character was defining them as against the rules with punishment after death being the detriment? If you do consider some things to be "off limits," where do you draw the line, and what justification would you use to defend it?
The people who are cool with nepotism seem to really hate affirmative action.
People do business with those that they like, know and trust. At least nepotism has some value add business basis. There's built-in personal knowledge of that person and trust in that person. If I like doing business with Bob's company because I like Bob, the CEO, then I'm at least inclined to give Bob's son the benefit of the doubt when he takes over Bob's account.
There is no rational basis in racial diversity hiring. I don't think I've ever seen a single shred of evidence that hiring for race, blind of qualifications, has ever been value adding unless you're a federal or state government contractor looking to win a government contract.
One way to measure if something is immoral is to examine what happened if everyone did it. In the case of nepotism, it would ensure that we had a caste system. Certainly, a spot given to the boss' son takes the spot away from someone more deserving, so it is causing harm to someone (comment intended for the person who says their moral code says to do what they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone).
From a practical stand point, nepotism usually hurts your business. High talent employees are less likely to want to work at a nepotism heavy firm, because they know there is a limit to how high they can go in the firm. Not to mention it's demoralizing for existing employees when some doofus gets hired just because his family member is high ranking in the firm....everybody knows they're going to be picking up the slack for this person.
I can't understand how anybody can defend nepotism. Maybe you can say, 'fuck it, I'm going to get mine'. But, it's not a good practice almost any way you slice it.
One of the many reasons I would never hire one of my kids at my firm, is that then I would have to accept that we hire some idiot kid of one of the other partners at the firm. Not to mention, that I think it would be demoralizing for my kids to not be able to get the self respect that comes from achievement. That type of 'achievement' is really just a gift. Like when you're a kid and save your money to get a bike, instead of your Mom just buying you one....the feeling is entirely different.
If no one ate vegetables the world would be fat. So it's immoral for people to not eat vegetables? That's your basis for what's moral or not? Hmm.
What do you have to say about everything else about the lucky sperm club? You can't actually think it's great to hire borderline retarded nephews just because they're family, right?
You don't get necessarily get fat from just not eating vegetables. That's pretty basic stuff.
There is nothing wrong with this if the person in question is the most qualified person for the job.
Alternatively, would you take a job if you were a scum bag with a low GPA who has no street smarts whatsoever who only got a job offer because he went to Harvard or Yale and only was accepted to the university only because his parents made large donations to the university?
I personally wouldn't take it, but not because I care about other applicants, fairness, or being "dishonorable." I'd want to prove that I can achieve what my dad achieved by my own effort, not his help.
I know it's tough to see when you're still in school or just starting in the industry but, eventually, things sort themselves out. The simple acquisition of a top tier entry level job is no indication of future success. Many smart and talented analysts never "make it" in the sense that this board thinks of. At the end of the day, to make serious money in this industry, you either need to be very good at investing your (or LP's) money or be a very good salesman/advisor. While you may think some VP you work for doesn't deserve his job, there are very few people in senior management positions in finance that didn't get there through some serious results.
Sometimes you just want to fit in, and that's okay.
I've seen this play out fairly well for someone I used to work with. As long as you distinguish yourself as a hard worker as he did and not as a brat at work, you should be fine.
Or make like the Russian - lie, cheat, steal, profit. Make others work for yah brah.
I have some first hand experience with this situation. One of my parents is on the board of directors of a few large firms and I have other immediate family who are c-level executives at large firms as well. I could have easily joined any of their firms, but instead I tried to "make it" on my own. In fact I was adamant about not relying on nepotism to break in because I didn't want to be that guy. I don't have anything against it, but I had a greater sense of accomplishment when I got a job on my own.
It looks like this topic may have become even more relevant.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-27/wells-fargo-investment-unit-pa…
Both of my internships in college were a direct result of my parents, and it's difficult to think I would have gotten my current role without those internships--not just because of what they did for my resume, but what I learned from them. I'm a hell of a lot more proud of where I am now than had I not taken the internships and "made it on my own," whatever that means.
I currently work my father in a corporate setting and have been for the 3 years since I graduated college. I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand I believe I have greater responsibility/higher up than I would otherwise be without the help. I'm the marketing manager and hiring manager. How many 26 year olds can say that. I have a major say in how the company is run. On the other hand I actually have to report to my father everyday because he is my boss and CEO which kind of sucks.
I also believe that I have greater abilities and am a more productive worker than my father who is nearing retirement. I know that might sound pretentious but I do all the major decision making, run the meetings, while my father takes just sits back and listens.
My opinion on this can be summed up with a quote from the descendants( don't even remember the movie but this quote stood out):
"I don't want my daughters growing up entitled and spoiled. And I agree with my father - you give your children enough money to do something but not enough to do nothing."
I don't think that an argument can be made that defends anyone truly unfit for a position.. regardless of how they attained it, but at the same time I don't understand why people seem to spend so much time wrapped up in jealousy. Whether its a ditzy blonde that sucked a few to get where she is or some spoiled kid, it has always happened and will always happen. Worry about your own life and the standards you set for yourself.
In response to the discussion that broke out, the fact that finance is even a remotly-viable career to anyone on here is unquestionably unfair. The fact we even have internet access let alone access to a quality education.. is unfair, does that mean we should not take pride in ourselves or take pride in hard work?.. Whats next, do I apologize for being white, or being born a man?
I'll use myself as an example, I was raised in a very comfortable middle class family.. my father was a mid to upper-level exec involved in midstream oil and gas and my mom was an auditor then went on to IT. There has never been anything remotely flashy about my family (my parents are extremely frugal) but for many years as a kid I truly felt embarrassed to "come from money". I never had more gifts or other shit then anyone I knew(which was a wide range of kids- from the ghetto kids to the sons of ceos). I can say with a fair amount of certainty I was not a spoiled kid; I think the root of my "embarrassment" was due to my old man, both him and my mother are the fist generation on either side of the family ( that we know of) that aren't living paycheque to paycheque and well below the poverty line. He would (and still does) drive home the point that my brother and I have it much better then he ever did.. I'm not sure why, but growing up I would always picture my future success in the context of where my dad ended up.. I figured that in order to make him proud I had to out earn him and reach a title that he would only dream of- even with that scenario I had doubts, If he had started where I'm starting where would he get? What is an acceptable level that would make someone who has come so far proud of his kid? I realize what I just wrote sounds completely fucking insane, no one in their right mind should define success as out earning their parents.. no one should define success as earning x of money period. I just had a severely flawed interpretation of the point he was continually trying to make. Does that mean I no longer want to pursue wealth?.. Fuck no, I still want money, but not for materialistic reasons.. I see wealth as security, flexibility and as everyone on here is familiar with.. the ability to say fuck you. Anyway, back to where I'm going with this...
All this shit my dad had filled my head with over the years had made me believe that anyone who didn't start from rock bottom was a loser and must take things for granted, but his main goal in life was still to provide a lifestyle for his kids that he never had. He never wanted me to have the impression that based on the opportunities he had made possible for me that I was less of a man then him- his intentions were nothing but good, but I also think he scared shitless of raising the type of spoiled kid he grew up hating. I guess he just ended up transferring all the insecurities he had from being from the wrong side of the tracks to me, only on the opposite end of the spectrum. At one point in high school I owed him about 10k, the exact amount is still argued over to this day lol.. He lent me his truck one day while mine was in pieces(it was a project car that I was constantly working on). I racked up about 5k in damage after sliding through an intersection and already owed him 5k for a loan to help buy my project car and tools. We were pretty straightforward about how I intended to pay him, as I got the money.. I wanted to pay him a nice amount of interest but he said no right away and that it wasn't about the money, I just had to respect his shit and the payments were basically a reminder of my stupidity. It got to the point where I would attempt to pay him and he would say no-way, pay me when you actually have some savings and aren't giving me most of your cheques. The thing is, he would load me up with guilt every time there was an argument ( which became increasingly common as I seemed to stop giving a fuck about attending school, which was his only real condition to anything- a good education ). We would get into insane fights and often come to blows, trash the house. The lack of logic I had was unbelievable, a response to an argument about owing your parents money should never be to punch some holes in the wall and kick doors down- probably adding $200 a swing. I went insane with the idea that I had to sit around in high school with no real source of income and 10k between me and what I thought was freedom.. so again, being the rational teenager I was, I dropped out and went to northern alberta to work on an oil rig. It was my attempt to prove I was tough, didn't need any help and definitely didn't need any money. As soon as I left I also told him he could stuff the RESP(my college fund ) he had been contributing money too his entire career. I told this to the man who refused to even think about having kids until about 15 years into his marriage when he knew he was financially stable and could provide a kid with everything they need- talk about a slap in the face. Anyway, I spent about a year up north and came back to finish school and get into university. I paid him his money and graciously accepted his offer to pay my tuition, I used the remainder of my savings( the money I had intended on using for school) to open a brokerage account that is now my sole source of income. I work closely with him in the management of his own investments and he has put me in touch with a few of his friends for possible internship opportunities. These are things that I would have never thought of doing with him before ( when I acted like a conceited basted).
Long story short, if you refuse the help of those around you in an attempt to act independent and add unnecessary obstacles, you are a smug fuck. By the same token, solely relying on the assistance of others to get what you want is the same thing. I think you should make decisions that are in line with what you want to do, I'm not advocating that you blindly say yes to favours out of a fear of being ungrateful, but denying something that would clearly assist you is immature.
PS- I don't even know how I'm allowed to ramble for this long on WSO, I was planning on jotting down a quick paragraph and got carried away. I don't expect most people to care about all the off-topic nonsense I included.. I just started writing... Good thing I have seen plenty of other crazy shit on here or I might feel weird lol.
i think that stuff got turned upside down here. as hard as it may be to break into a certain industry i think it's still all about what you do on the job, isn't it? say your dad is the coach of a pro sports franchise and you get the possibility to play with the big guys. if you outplay them why would somebody bother about you being on the team as long as you make everybody better? same thing in the corporate world i think. as soon as you break in, great you did it! but from now on you have to earn it like everybody else, like the guy who accidentally made it from the mail room or the guy who networked 24/7 to get this opportunity. same story for the ceo's kid then of course
dr.schulz
To me it seems that OP has a friend who is getting hooked up and he/she must be jealous.
Everyone uses connections to get a job at some point, obviously if you are terrible employee they won't keep you around for very long.
Life is like a game of poker - play the hands you're dealt. If you get dealt pocket aces you don't fold b/c you feel bad that the average player only has 7 6 or w/e. Completely agree with NYCBandar of previous page
How is this even a discussion? If you want a career, then it's your job to make it happen. Assuming you already intend to go into banking/something equally time consuming, why would you turn down a fast track making more money for a lesser position making less, all other things equal?
Your question isn't should I do IB if I like ER or something subjective, I read it as "should i take a baller job from a conection". That is networking. Fuck.
I bet you are really fun at parties!!!!
Did you seriously liken an MD hiring his son at an investment bank to what started the French revolution? Take a step back and really think about that.
Also, what do you define as qualified. In a relationship driven business, junior's connections through daddy and his upbringing are probably a lot more important than your modeling wizardry.
The world is never going to be completely fair. Take the hand you were dealt and make it fucking work.
/rant
'murica
I just got these shorts:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9dgy73TZK1repofuo1_500.jpg
And for your information, at parties, I give out PLENTY of good tips people can use to hide assets while doing taxes and how to get out of ponzi schemes before they implode.
Ok, I rescind my previous statement. Shorts are fantastic, make sure to complete the outfit with the flag and girls will be helpless.
Please share.
Lets be honest. Even if you decided to not take advantage of your father's position, you're still going to be taking advantage of it in another way. Growing up in a family where you're father has those types of connections and status will give you a leg up either way. Maybe you might have a better job starting out with your dad, but either way I think the son of a Goldman Sachs exec will do just fine.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rahimkanani/2012/05/11/leadership-contribut…
[quote=SirTradesaLot]http://www.forbes.com/sites/rahimkanani/2012/05/11/leadership-contribut…]
Take "advice" from this 21-year old fart ? Can she even make coffee ?
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