This is the story of an outlier, and is meant to make you think. Spoiler: I do agree with the accepted conclusion among this community that in general, you ought to attend the best school you can. So hold back your indignant replies for a moment - all I want to do is make you think.
This applies whether you’re in high school picking colleges (Ivy or nontarget?), in college picking a career (investment bank or Big 4 accounting?), in early career deciding whether to go to B-school… you get the point.
I present my own story as a challenge to the conventional wisdom - not a story of a nontarget student making it into investment banking, but a story of a top student through pure ignorance choosing a nontarget and finding, quite by accident, that he ended up right where he wanted to be.
How I Ended Up at a Non-target
The year was 2006. I was in the first semester of my senior year of high school, and every day I was pulling another half dozen letters out of my mailbox from colleges around the country.
For several months at that point, my mailbox had congratulated me on my academic performance in high school. Each week at least one or two of those letters were full tuition scholarship offers, some from state schools, and some from smaller regional colleges. Occasionally, I would get something from an Ivy, sans the scholarship offer.
I thought the full rides and Ivies were pretty cool, and started a private collection out of pure vanity. (I also started a collection of the letters where they got my gender wrong - must have checked the gender box wrong on one of those standardized tests, but I have no recollection of it. I was probably trying to be funny.)
The rest of the letters went straight to the trash, and my collections were honestly just for fun. I never had any intention of going to a college other than the institutions within 20 miles of my parents' house; it was more important to me to stay near my family and friends, and save on room and board. There were a semitarget, a solid state school, two decent regional schools, and one good liberal arts college. In my youthful foolishness, I decided against the semitarget without even applying – it was way too expensive, said my 18-year old mind. Why spend six figures to get educated when my other choices were considering me for full rides?
Eighteen-year-old me decided on the weakest of the two regional schools. They offered me a full ride first, and campus was in the suburbs, so no fighting traffic when I commuted. I started class in the fall of 2007.
tl;dr: Eighteen-year-old me had the stats for Harvard but chose a full ride at a local regional school to save money and stay in town.
The Resume I Built in College
Back in 2007, I had zero knowledge of the financial industry. I couldn’t have told you the difference between a private equity firm and a hedge fund, and I certainly had no idea that entry level hires in these sectors were pulling down six figures. I had a vague notion that Big 4 accounting would turn me into a CFO by the time I was 25, so the Big 4 were my dream.
College was interesting. I did a double major, tacked on two Masters, started a couple student organizations, got on the board of every other campus organization I could find, did a few internships, worked full time or close to it the whole way through, and three years later (yes, three), graduated with a 3.9. That’s what you can do as a big fish in a very small pond.
My full ride was extended for everything, so the good news is I came out of it with practically zero debt. I also got my dream job, starting as an auditor with the Big 4 firm in town that had all the best clients.
tl;dr: I lost out on the Ivy experience, but killed it in college and came out debt-free with the best resume I possibly could coming from the school I chose.
And Where That Got Me Today
So here I am three years and a couple promotions later, but still a Big 4 auditor. Quite ironically, despite the wealth of knowledge I have accumulated about high finance and my disillusionment with the prestige of the Big 4 path and my chances of being a F500 CFO by my next birthday, I am doing almost exactly what I thought I would – interviewing for positions as a VP of Finance.
The difference is I’m interviewing with startups, not multi-million dollar corporations. The funny thing about graduating from college and being an adult is you start to learn a little bit about who you are and what you really want to be. I'm a rule breaker and big picture guy, and I want to create, solve problems, and build, not follow the playbook, enforce rules, and make transactions.
I need to be a startup guy, and I am almost positive that coming from an Ivy League to investment banking background, I would have arrived at exactly that same conclusion.
I’m also not sure it would have positioned me any better. At the moment, I’m founding my own startup (two actually) and am interviewing for a VP Finance position at companies that have gotten through their Series A in order to get my feet wet, meet people, and maintain some cash flow as my own ventures progress. I may decide to stick with the big corporate environment for now instead, but either way I am pretty sure this would also have been my move coming from investment banking. It seems like most bankers are able to save a decent chunk of change during their first couple years, but if I have done that, would I be willing to risk my extra $50k on my first startup? No way. I also would not be married to an amazing girl, or be as physically healthy as I am now, or have any of the benefits I've collected from having a life outside of work for the past three years.
Of course, nothing is set in stone. Most startups fail, and from what I hear, most startup employees still don't do that well if the startup succeeds. I may very well regret my decision, but the fact remains that at the moment my next career decision is no different than it would have been if I had chosen the Ivy to investment banking path.
My Conclusion
As finance types, we were taught how to estimate ROI. I think it’s pretty obvious that the general population needs to be thinking harder about whether the ROI of any university degree is positive. Just because my readers here are in the top quartile of the academically inclined and headed for the top paying jobs doesn’t mean they get to skip that analysis. If you can get into a top school, you can get a full ride at a decent one, making the up-front costs in your ROI analysis pretty steep.
I’ll give you my opinion straight: in general, all other things being equal, it would probably be the most prudent choice for the majority of my readers to err on the side of going to the best school they can get into. I am simply proposing that you not treat that as a foregone conclusion.
Because you don’t know who you will be or what you will want from life several years from now, you can’t say for sure that an Ivy (or an investment banking analyst position, or a top MBA, or a private equity job, etc.) is the right decision for you. All you can do is make your best guess, and make the decision that will position you for the best options in the future once you have a better grip on those answers.
Whether that decision is one to stay out of debt or one to buy the opportunities that only a top school can provide is your choice alone to make. And nontarget grads – just because you didn’t get those opportunities doesn’t mean you can’t make your own. As long as you’re making the most of wherever your options are, you might even end up right where you wanted to be just by accident.
Looking back to 2006, even if I had been able to make a more informed decision as a senior in high school, I don’t think I would change anything. Am I an outlier? Most definitely. But maybe you are, too.
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You obviously did very well in college, and I'm glad things worked out well for you. I think this is a good story for ambitious high school seniors who could not get into an ivy or chose another school for various reasons. However, in GENERAL, I do think one should try to go to the best school one gets into due to the fact that you don't know what's going to happen and thus want to hedge downside risk in addition to having access to as many opportunities as possible.
I do think that your grad degree is what matters much more, at least professionally. Socially, your strongest friendships are formed in college.
OP, with your background, you should definitely shoot for HBS/Stanford/Wharton for MBA. You are certainly competitive at all those schools.
Excellent write up. Always nice to hear wise decisions and hard work have paid dividends.
tldr;
OP is the definition of mediocrity trying to justify his piker decisions, while subconsciously questions if he chose the right path and is simultaneously unaware of opportunity cost. Bring on the monkey shit.
Two degrees, two masters, 3.9 GPA, two start-up extracurricular organizations and board of many others, along with no debt, in three years, is mediocrity?
I don't really get offended by elitism. And yes I know a lot of people who retroactively justify their decisions and make themselves and their achievements more important than they are.
But I just can't see where you see "mediocrity" here. Sounds like he has the makings of a champ to me if he goes the entrepreneurial route. Unless we're defining mediocrity by how good of an employee one could be..?
I don't know, maybe it was a bit harsh, but avoiding an Ivy League school because it's too long of a drive away, or because it costs too much seems like irrational thinking to me.
True, but harsh as fuck.
Your signature quote couldn't be more fitting for this comment.
It's sad if working your ass off and getting into what is widely considered the premier business school is the biggest accomplishment in your life? So what if that person goes on to have a mediocre family, making 200k/yr at his or her relatively mediocre job? That "sadly... just sad" accomplishment essentially secured the financial future of his or her immediate family.
What do you consider a bigger accomplishment? What are you going to accomplish in your life that you would consider a bigger accomplishment?
I do not mean these questions rhetorically either. I'm thinking about my own life and how I just want to be financially secure and live out my days doing what I enjoy. None of that would seem to be a bigger accomplishment than getting in to HBS. Am I to be pitied?
Also, don't most top Ivy League schools offer comprehensive financial aid packages? It would have cost more for me to go to my local state school than to Yale.
I'm pretty sure Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, and Penn do not give student loans. Only grants.
I've been out of that game for a while, but my understanding is that financial aid is need-based. According to the government, I didn't need anything, so one of those schools would have been pretty expensive over four years.
@BTbanker Thanks for the honest feedback. I was trying to explain how ignorance (which is probably what you meant when you said mediocrity) led me to make the decisions I did. I am hoping that the story illustrates for others who also have made ignorant decisions that as long as you're giving it your all, it might not be as big of a deal as you think that you didn't go to a top undergrad, investment bank, B-school, buyside gig, etc.
There is probably some truth to your accusations - I think it's very human to try to retroactively justify as well as regret the decisions we make, including those who went deep into debt and sacrificed some relationships to get into investment banking.
The point of my post is that looking back on my own life, I realize that I should spend more time looking at the options ahead than the ones behind.
Why attend a top institution: - actual learning is (potentially, if you take advantage of it) up to 10x more than what you yanks call a "non-target" (comparing curriculum at Oxbridge vs 2nd rate UK unis here). You do work your ass off, and have little time for jobs or boards of organizations, but this getting to stretch your mind to its full capacity is pretty awesome and not something you can ever do again (not with learning, anyway; with experience, sure). You do not realize that "mind expansion" stuff until you return to your home region (which for me is a small town in the Alps) and are completely out of sync with everybody including your own family. You learn to think in a structured and powerful manner and to carry your ideas to the end. It is not to say you cannot develop this on your own, but it requires mental discipline to do so which I have seen few people have. - brand is unbeatable. My Oxbridge degree gets me in through so many doors. I got my Singapore visa in a couple hours (whilst I know many people, especially this year, who were rejected on a "not enough qualifications" basis). When I've joined a commodity trading house, they put me on the management track and gave me better options and choices. Well this whole brand thing is well described elsewhere in this forum. I've actually had trouble justifying hiring self-taught dropouts to management, since they are so brand focused from a lifetime at McKinsey/Goldman + HBS. Americans are the biggest brand whores. - the connections you make are, I think, better than big fish small pond type connections. Because the quality of your classmates is higher, they are more likely to be the kind of people you want to keep in touch with. This does not mean "I just network with bankers". It means high IQ, intellectually curious people who are (at least at admissions time) the top students in their fields. I've moved across 4 continents so far, and always find a few classmates in every city have moved before me, whether in New York or Kuala Lumpur. A random phone call in Sydney to catch up with a banker friend led to a 3h conversation about Islamic golden age thinkers and their philosophy in which honestly I was more of a listener, fascinating conversation the type of which I never had back home.
There is something to be said for making it via delivering value, rather than relying on connections (being a maker, vs a taker; building a company, not being an executive). However, regional college does not guarantee that you are Steve Jobs, whilst it is easier (although requiring hard thinking and willful choice) to become a maker post-Ivy.
I would also caution against thinking too highly of startup positions, it is easy to believe the hype, particularly with branded founders and investors, but 90% of so called startups (and I am being generous) are a pretty wrapper and a ton of hype layered on a sub-par product hoping for a large exit. It's always worth working in a high pressure environment to see your field's best practices, and then, if the "maker" way is your way, moving to mid-cap/"startup" in an attempt to get results for yourself instead of being a cog.
The word mediocre is overused
good to hear that what you do in school is a lot more important than where you go to school. And we can all use that for other areas in our life.
Well it was a logic argument. Once you accept it it should be clear that it is exactly the argument that you present that is the issue at hand (the argument of taking the path of least resistance). I think the OP is asserting that men build character in trying situations (i.e. not going down the path of least resistance).
I believe he is trying to say he is all the better for not being surrounded by people in your camp(i.e. the ones who want to squeak by as far as possible with just enough knowledge to be considered mediocre) . I certainly think this path of least resistance garbage will die hard. Eventually you have to produce. Everyone I've heard presenting this school rank hierarchy argument pretty much unanimously ties it to an easier future.
Not many try to claim better education, rarely do they talk about how they were able to get involved in so much more research, nothing that proclaims that this is a member of society with a higher ability to produce. (I believe we are still in a capitalistic society?) If you're trying to say that he received a sub par education then you better be able to prove it. If not, it sounds like you're the one talking pure nonsense.
If OP's dream job was in banking,,,,
If distance to friends/family is important, then I have nothing to say to that...but financially (to pull from one of my blog posts):
I find it surprising that so many people on WSO talk about the price of these top schools as one of the main downsides. This seems to imply to me that all of these WSO members have family incomes well into the 6-figures, which would surprise me (and be unfortunate in this respect), because that's what it takes these days not to receive ANY need-based financial aid from many of these schools (I believe the cut-off for receiving any financial aid at my school was $150,000). It is not uncommon for a student from a solidly middle-class family to receive 60-80% of his all-in cost (tuition plus everything else) in financial aid at a top 10 school. And if you're lucky enough to go to one of the schools that only offer grants (these are becoming more prevalent in order to compete for yield), you'll be in even better shape.
This post is also fitting since the U.S. News and World Report 2014 rankings just came out: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/na…
Financial aid info for the top 5 schools (Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford): Average need-based grant/scholarship amount as a % of tuition + room & board: Princeton: 69.8% Harvard: 75.3% Yale: 75.0 Columbia: 67.4% Stanford: 71.8%
Realize that the average student who receives financial aid is probably upper-middle class if schools have something similar to a $150k cut-off (in 2011, the middle 40% made roughly between $30,000 and $80,000, and the $150,000 mark is 90 percentile, source). I was from a middle-middle class (is that a term?) family, and received 80%-85% of my all-in cost every year in financial aid when I went to one of these schools.
Average total indebtedness of 2012 graduating class: Princeton: $5,096 Harvard: $13,098 Yale: $12,347 Columbia: N/A Stanford: $18,833
This includes kids who don't get any financial aid, so if you're like 90% of the country (see above), yours will probably be less than this.
tl;dr There are people on WSO who argue that the benefits of attending a top school are worth the $200k in debt. Well I'm arguing the same, except realistically, that number is $10-20k.
Also why are you presenting this? Literally no one made the argument that the schools were more expensive here.
?
OP mentioned it. And I thought it was interesting. If you didn't, you can avert your eyes.
+1 Excellent post, with some great data points. My personal situation was that my parents made slightly over 6 figures, but if you have a mortgage, car payments, and several other kids to send through private school, there is nothing left over and you still don't get any student aid.
I do think it's a bit misleading to think only about the total indebtedness of a class, because you're not taking into account cash your family pays up front. Per the White House, the average total cost per year for each of those schools is as follows:
Princeton: $18,813 Harvard: $18,277 Yale: $18,934 Columbia: $19,073 Stanford: $21,421
Once you take into account student loan interest, that brings the total cost of a top school to somewhere around 6 figures - and that's for the average student. The overarching theme of my post is that you should consider your own situation, so keep in mind half of the population would find the cost even higher.
My personal situation prevented me from going to school out of town; my cost to go to a top school would have been enormous; and I wasn't willing to work 100 hour weeks/be out of town all the time and lose the relationships I had (which would have allowed me to pay off the loans in a reasonable amount of time). Again, I completely agree with your general conclusion, but I encourage everyone to consider their own personal situation.
Ah yes, that makes a lot of sense. I did notice at my school that there were very few students with family income levels in the low six-figures; half the people were below that, and the other half were well above that. The upper middle class definitely gets the short end of the stick in financial aid for these colleges.
....but who is prestigious?
Joking... good read.
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