How to break into tier 0 shops/funds like Rentech/XTX
I'm not delusional. I don't think I'm destined for these firms. This is more of a general curiosity of their hiring process post. The conventional wisdom collected from comments under similar posts seems to always revolve around needing a PhD in hardcore STEM from a top universities. But a decent chunk of the people at any reputable firms have that. So clearly that's not what distinguishes the people hired by the mythical tier 0s.
Meanwhile, most firms have some sort of hiring pipelines. Most commonly, it's the internship -> full time pipeline. On top of this, firms will occasionally hire a small number full time grads and of course some experienced hires. The process is of course incredibly challenging, but theoretically paths exist.
For firms like Rentech and XTX, however, it doesn't even look like they have an application portals for QR-like roles, whether it's internships, grads, or experienced hires. Is it just that they are not hiring? If so, how come most of the industry is hiring new talent whilst the top dogs aren't? Surely it's usually the other way around no? The other theory I've heard is that they only hire through headhunting and referrals. In which case, I am curious as to what one can do to get a shot. Obviously there is the elite STEM PhD, but again tons of people (most of the industry) have elite STEM PhDs. So what else would one need to differentiate themselves further?
If you were destined you would be talented enough to find this out or have them contact you. Within 5 minutes I found a public portal to submit a resume to rentech, took very little creativity with Google and URL’s Frankly this ego centric and messianic view on your life will get you know where, be humble, learn from others, ask thoughtfully, provide value.
Ok…go on the career pages for the 3 top Ivy League schools and MIT…click on the shcool only job board…you’ll notice how it’s locked behind a student login portal…go to the URL…delete some stuff…there you go…there’s also pretty obvious “hidden portals” in the webpages if you understand imbedded links or how to access these…many more creative ways to get access…nearfield someone at an academic lecture you would presume has access to these places…there’s a mass repository of emails to and fro from banks with allocations to UHNWI for these funds…contacts, numbers and etc info is there…this generation lacks any scrappiness…if you desire knowledge you can attain it in today’s world…takes small amounts of creativity and curiosity…if you had 2% of the talent you need to perform at these places you’d be able to figure most of this on your own…not to mention…go build your own impressive research and publish it publicly…chongqing regions have inefficient supply demand pricing for compute and population demand is high…do some research here, make a lot of money publish and people will take note…go connect with some billionaires in the field…if you are impressive/have something unique to say they will chat…HRT and XTX execs are happy to chat
Weird boomer condescension aside, this is actually helpful. Cheers!
Many people there are good but not amazing, just like anywhere else. They got in early or were in the right place and right time. Rentech used to hire professors who referred others in their academic networks, but were not looking for any specific field, the phd itself doesn't matter. Many other firms copied their hiring approach with much less success. XTX has less than 20 people in their core team who were all with Gerko from the beginning, and hires only when someone leaves. You can try asking Gerko on linkedin, he will probably respond.
you basically have to be autistic to get in to those firms. maybe the firms got bigger so the bar has been lowered slightly but still think you gotta be on the spectrum
Once upon a time I was an undergrad at Wharton and had a friend who was getting his stat PhD there and somewhat close (but not that close) to the rentech / really profitable quant hedge funds. He seemed to tell me that those firms really just recruit out of the top mathematically intensive PhD programs (like Wharton stat phd was seen as too low of a tier from a pure theoretical math perspective that only like tier 2 quant shops like stevens or big tech firms would recruit out of). Basically google whatever the top math, physics or these days computer science / machine learning / AI PhD programs. My guess is from there is where rentech (if they are still in business much post Simons’ passing or another similar shop) and others may recruit from. The idea is that the quant hedge funds are basically like academic institutions solving very challenging math / physics / computer science problems. Instead of the goal of increasing the frontier of humanity’s knowledge of very deep/esoteric complicated topics, publishing papers and teaching the next generation; the goal is to make as much money as possible in the financial markets.
Obligatory If YoU hAvE tO aSk. You don't "break in" to funds like Rentech. They approach you. If you're that good then word travels in the right circles and you become more or less easy for them to find.
Become a KGB spy if you’re interested in working at XTX.
The reputation of XTX keeps getting weirder...
As someone who has a few friends either a) interning in the industry or b) received their full time RO and been working there for a while it is mainly due to a few things: everything you did in high school and onwards matters. Unless you are literally Terrence Tao or the next Fields Medalist, it is very hard to break into QT/QR/QD unless you have a near perfect GPA in undergrad (with the generic Math/Phys/CS/Stats/EE major advice everyone says) while also doing either a) advanced research with highly respected professors, b) high quality competitions (ICPC, Putnam, etc and actually placing), or c) internships at top tech firms (FAANG+, AI Labs, etc - although this usually leads to a QT/QD path compared to QR in what I've seen) or literally all of them. Not only do you need to do these things in college, but they screen heavily for what you did in high school - I've seen plenty of kids at basic state schools get top firms because they went to say, TJ, Stuyvesant, etc and were top students there (with top scores - usually near perfect, or perfect ACT/SAT scores, took BC Calculus in =Junior year of high school, and much more). I work at a pretty cool aerospace startup (well interning there, so I can't make my claim to fame quite yet) and while I've always considered myself a pretty smart guy doing physics competitions throughout high school, got a nice 35 ACT, and got some pretty cool aerospace startup offers for internships, the level of quick thinking and high level thinking some of my friends in the industry have is really insane. It's not like there's a drastic gap between an EB Analyst and a QT in terms of raw intelligence (there is, the QT is smarter) but it's more so just that you need to have a very specific list of requirements to meet them and it's difficult to meet them if you're too late. It truly is a meritocratic industry I think, but the meritocracy is lopsided since you need to be of a certain pedigree in your academics which is heavily weighted on well, where and who you were born to. I urge you to see the profiles of the firms that you are looking into to see the level of competition that is out there and see if you can actually study for it - the human brain is very powerful, so I believe anything you dedicate yourself to, you can achieve, but just be aware that it comes with a very strong set of difficulties and challenges along that path, and this industry is still rather secretive. With that being said, good luck, and best wishes on your journey!
This is true for someone starting today, but look at the existing senior people as well. The vast majority did not do any of these things when they were younger, they just started at a time when there was more opportunity in the firm. For every math prodigy you can find 30 others who came from average backgrounds making more money, both within and outside quant. In fact Alex Gerko said he got rejected from all the top funds and joined DB, where he probably ended up learning more about markets than being pigeonholed in one of the big firms.
I agree, there are plenty of nontraditional paths for it but Alex Gerko isn't really a good example for this; he won several math competitions in Russia and did his BS+MS+PhD in Mathematics as well. He did get rejected from the top funds, but the very gifted technical background was still there to succeed despite those rejections. Did his rejections from Quant Firms resulting in him joining DB have a very strong role in his understanding of financial markets? Indubitably. Was he still a prodigy or right below a prodigy level? Again, without a doubt.
I went to Hs like the ones listed above, a mid college, and work at a firm people consider a tier below Rentech. +1.
I don't know if you are strictly talking about the tier 0 mythics. For the industry as a whole, I feel like there is definitely a higher than normal concentration of people who were essentially child prodigies, but there the majority of people, from my observation, would still classify as talented normal people. I've done a QT internship at a 2nd tier firm (DRW/Five Rings/IMC/Optiver) in my undergrad days and have a QR internship with another one of these next summer. I've also interviewed and gotten past some rounds at 1st tier firms (JS/HRT/Cit Sec/Jump), and have more talented friends (including some IMO/IOI/IPhO geniuses but mostly really smart regular people) who works there. So, I don't think it's generally true that you need to be a child prodigy to like pass the Resume screen and have a shot. That said, it could well be true for the next level firms like XTX/Rentech.
You would be right, I'm not talking about purely Tier 0. For the industry as a whole - they aren't all child prodigies, but the thing is they all are basically the step below child prodigies, and I think you would agree with that / fall under that bucket (or maybe you are a chlid prodigy and just playing down your capabilities lol). If you're already working at one of the firms, why worry about trying to get into a "tier 0" firm? There's not a drastic difference in the type of work that you would do at XTX or RenTec and honestly speaking, I think that the culture at the Tier 2 and Tier 1 firms is arguably better - younger population, more collaboration, and arguably better+faster growth. I don't think it's worth your time trying to get into those Tier 0's unless it's a really deep desire, and in that case, I think you know that a PhD is the statistically most probable path for that.
if you have to ask on WSO, you're already cooked
Ratione aut suscipit dolor omnis eligendi minima. Distinctio facere hic quibusdam. Sed ipsam sit ipsa praesentium aut commodi veritatis veritatis. Facilis ut aspernatur sed ipsa dolorem similique. Architecto vel quis molestiae sunt qui voluptatem nulla.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...