Start up Hedge Fund Economics for Juniors?
Context: have an opportunity to join a start-up credit fund as a founding team member - wanted to think about what potential economics would look like for a junior employee
Note that founder / PM is still in fund-raising mode, but targeting a $300 to 500mm (net / pre-leverage) launch day one, with other possible mandates on the periphery (SMAs etc.)
How would you structure and negotiate compensation as a junior employee? Would proposing the idea of day 1 equity (maybe with step ups based on tenure and performance) be out of the realm of unreasonable? The opportunity cost for me would be to work for the usual brand name funds, so I'd like to structure for some upside / right-tail optionality to compensate for what would likely be lower cash compensation
Issue is I'm still pretty early into my career (2 years in, don't run my own book yet etc.) so there's still a lot of learning to do. Any and all advice welcome to people who've been in my shoes before (anything else I should be thinking of?)
This might be bad advice given my inexperience as a career professional but cant help to voice my perspective that it is completely 50/50. It depends whether or not the person fundraising has concrete capital commitments already and you genuinely see them securing a pocket of alpha. I imagine its easier to get returns on half a billion dollars than a hundred billion dollars though so your odds of going bust are also not that low to where you would wish you were at the bottom of the ladder in your current position. Bet on your founder but if there is anything at all hinting that you shouldn't, stay put.
I would recommend presenting your opportunity cost to the founder, and negotiate as follows:
Given where you are in your career, absent a strong offer, I would stick with the brand name opportunity for a few more years.
Thank you for laying this out - I think this is a very reasonable way of approaching negotiations. I should have mentioned in the original post that I've already worked with the founder for 1.5 years (worked at a platform / MM with him), so these conversations would be a lot more casual / transparent.
Besides comp, I think the other thing giving me pause is the potential lack of training that'd come with working at a startup shop (that's trying to hit the ground running). He is very willing to delegate from what I've experienced working with him, but I'm also self aware enough to know where I am in my career and the gaps in my skillsets - far from ready to run my own sleeve etc...
Is there anything you'd recommend on this front? Is this concern reasonable? On one hand it's going to be a lot of learning by fire, but on the flipside some structured training would be very helpful...
Given your goals, I would generally stay away and stick to a larger established team. The kind of person who is a good fit for this would be glad that the founder is hands off and giving them a lot of responsibility, because they are ready to start forming their own investment processes while the founder is learning how to run a business.
If your focus is more structured mentorship look elsewhere.
(1) This is a good way to negotiate and I fully cosign.
I worked at a small hedge fund (~$200M NAV). It was not a startup, so I don't quite have the insight into this exact situation, but this is also beneficial to them. By paying you based on revenue generation, it doesn't lock their cost structure in. It can also give THEM more flexibility as well.
Something also worth thinking of is asking for a profit interest, instead of full equity. I would hold this back as more of a backup option, but this could be more palatable to them as well.
(2) Do you believe in this team enough to think they will be around in 15-plus years? If you think they will have this type of success, and are interested in building something from basically zero, you should strongly consider this opportunity. Yes, having a big name on your resume is nice. Yes, it can be helpful. But if you genuinely believe in this opportunity, go after it.
I took this chance and it was a big mistake ... I bet on the wrong founder... there's a new founder of a new 250MM credit fund who is also snakey - these ppl are the majority of our industry, unfortunately... the greatest gift in this industry is working under an established, reliable, honest, secure, well-achieved, and fair PM/founder.... nothing is more important as an analyst...
Absolutely - thanks for sharing your experience... should have mentioned in my post that I worked with this PM for 1.5 years at a platform. I think he is all those things that you mentioned, based on what I've experienced first hand and anecdotes from other team members...
As mentioned in my other comment, I think my main concern (outside of immediate lower comp) is the lack of training that'll come with working at a startup... given this new info would you still go for the swing?
Honestly I’ve heard mostly disappointment in these cases. The start-up PM, if they’re successful raising at decent terms, often starts out with cheap labor and upgrades as with scale, wiping the board of people who think they are owed some ‘understood’ equity upside. When people look back it’s easy to focus on the risks the senior took compared to the junior. Especially in a more qualitative / concentrated approach it’s also very easy to overallocate the ‘responsibility’ for good calls to oneself. It’s very easy to think ‘well I have a 2 children and this kid is 26’. They can be good roles - if youre coming in a bit senior to a rockstar’s spin out. Or something where you’ll learn a lot, grow a network and get foot in the door.
If your name is not on the investor deck & part of the pitch to capital, remember that it’s a lot easier to rotate you out than pay you a big check (which is presumably a larger portion of the founders net worth than at a more established fund). If there is formulaic payout or equity many of these concerns are mitigated.
Is this related to that SM L/S guy on Twitter hiring an analyst?
No it is not, I actually think he’s quite good if we’re thinking of the same person - both the people who screw you and the fewer good ones to work for will both sound the same when saying ‘trust me’.
Main advice here is to not work for a poor person or at least check out the wife and see how much she cares about money (even in a NE / Greenwich type of way vs Miami OF gold digger). Sounds heartless but those types of dudes who care a lot about being in the right golf club, what neighborhood they live in, where their kids go to school are losers and will never pay you correctly. They have too much of a chip on their shoulder.
If you work for a guy who already has $30M+ saved up, he could be greedy but most likely he’s used to being paid well so he will pay you well.
If it’s a dude who married into money, make sure he isn’t a loser. Those guys are also cooked. Like real life Tom from Succession situations but no promotion in the last episode.
Leaves a few situations:
This! I cannot stress how much of a reflection men are of their wives. My PM's wife is a gem & his kids are well raised. While they both are from NE, both come from money and are relatively well off, reflects in their behavior a lot, don't have condescension for people. I actually like coming to the office here, not to mention PM literally brings *me*, the peasant excel monkey coffee everyday out of his pocket and takes me out for drinks & lunch.
I sometimes wonder if I just struck it lucky when I hear people talking about their PMs on here.
will add plenty of people with $50M saved up who want to get to 100, then 200, etc. and still wont pay their guys. there are billionaires who wont pay their guys well
Et ut qui harum. Modi et dolores et minus libero aliquid itaque. Dolores veniam libero voluptas perferendis ducimus cupiditate reprehenderit. Soluta illum temporibus perspiciatis placeat ut tempore sapiente autem. Est reiciendis nulla veritatis adipisci quaerat accusamus voluptatibus. Totam ut qui beatae qui.
Et adipisci distinctio exercitationem dolor consequatur nostrum ab. Facilis consequatur eum tenetur provident quia. Omnis ipsa assumenda deleniti tenetur dolorum animi. Minus aliquid dolores modi temporibus nesciunt cumque in quaerat.
Maiores consequatur sunt nulla ea. At quod vitae amet consequatur ut facere aspernatur.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...