Hi all.
Would love if someone can share work life balance and what to expect as Analyst/Associate at these 3 firms (Balyasny, Citadel Millennium). Looking into options (some offers some in process) at L/S equity (junior role).
Thank you in advance!
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Also interested
Team dependent; generally speaking have low expectations
Thanks for the comments so far folks. Mind also sharing general hours? (e.g., I assume not equal to IB, where you work till 2 AM pretty constantly)
rough estimations about those firms / the L/S industry in general would be helpful
Really team dependent. Baseline expectation should be 7-7 weekday with half Sunday. Adjust up/down from baseline accordingly to how fked up PM is. Have seen first hand a -1sd case would be whole team in office 6:30 to 8 then green up at home until ~10, outside of earnings. Then full day with calls/active back and fourth on Sunday.
Heavily pod-dependent. I would say good WLB at pods in relation to team quality (defined by returns) probably follows a normal distribution. The very best and the very worst pods are where you're gonna be grinding the most. For reference, think that Jack Woodruff had his junior guys at Surveyor working around 80 hours a week (including weekends). It's obvious why the worst pods would be working harder, but I tend to think that to truly be top decile consistently (probably 5% of PM teams), you have to grind substantially in this model. The seemingly nice thing about this world is that a lot of the work is flexible as to when specifically you do it, so you can still have plans like you might not be able to make in IB.
70-80h, especially at start of ramp. Not entirely usual to be doing 6 days a week
Europe based
Am interested as heading to one soon (ignore tag), but can perhaps share some of what I know.
Extensive conversations with some people at some of these MM firms, including one fairly large and well-known European one (think Marshall Wace etc.) even though L/S equity technically isn’t their bread and butter the way it is for Citadel/MLP/P72 etc.
In short, hours range from 60-80 for most pods. Definitely depends on the PM, and also how hard you want to grind for it. There’s this guy I know who works around 60 per week with pretty good WLB (for finance) and has a bit of say in his own schedule (his can properly use his leaves and occasionally blocks off small pockets of time). But I also do know that man grinded his ass off for the first 1/2 years (not very sure if it was full time from the get go or there was some training program like CAP or P72 Acad) and he was essentially pulling IB hours (8-1) on the weekdays, though he still had some free time on the weekends. He told me he really put in the hours and learned a lot, and his idea generation has been pretty good so guess his PM gives him more leeway too.
Another fella (from the European shop) says hours are about 60-70. During earnings it tends to be higher, but generally there’s lee way in terms of hours as long as good ideas are generated. On average about 3 is discussed with the PM per week, sometimes more sometimes less. Occasionally ideas get worked on across a longer time period, and PM not too strict on the time, but generally as long as the ideas make money the PM doesn’t really care. So this fella tends to have quite a lot more time to himself, and his weekends tend to be entirely free too. Working hours are about 8-7 on weekdays, Sunday for half a day.
Small sample size, but most people I know fall within those two. Hope this helps!
Would think these two cases have above average WLB
Yep definitely agree. The more fresher ones I know tend to grind quite a bit and really towards the upper end of the 80 hours mark.
It really is a competitive af industry and I guess that’s why they always look for genuine talent because if not you can’t keep going. Intellectual work and consistently needing to think is far more draining than aligning logos on pots (IMO, was from an IB background and it’s no joke when they say some people can do the job even when drunk).
Thanks people,
super helpful.
Anymore anecdotes from the US? (and the large ones, eg. Baly, p72, Mil, Citadel)
Maybe a hot take, but I think if you're worried about W/L balance, a highly competitive big 4 pod shop might not be for you...just my take though
Thanks for the input. I am not looking for a 9-5 job. but 90 hours/week at PE/IB is no longer for me.
There's something in between. Also, if one place is known to be much worse than others, it might impact decisions
lol I knew I would get hit with a MS for that one - not trying to discourage just trying to keep it real. Also, you may go into it looking for better W/L balance and realize that your seat could be given to the next guy in line in a few months if you don't step your shit up, so you end up working more hours than you even wanted. Have you ever looked into any big LO's? Still an investing seat that pays decent and your seat is much more secure, so you can actually enjoy that better W/L balance.
U need to spend 99% of ur time due diligence the PM. Directly ask him to give you former analysts. Don’t worry about irritating him because u won’t want it anyways. There are (plenty of) MMPMs out there who will make u miss IB. Source: I work at a pod. Also the guy above has a good point. Good luck
~70 hours is probably the norm, and as said adjust up or down by PM/sector. (Large cap pharma guy will never sleep until they retire) People will inflate that number because it’s way lower than the fake banking hours which are inflated with downtime. It’s 7-7/8/9 M-Th, people often do 7-4/5pm on Friday, then a big chunk on Sunday. Earnings obviously add another 10-20 hours for peak season. This is all real work hours so “denser” than IB but sustainable, people doing 80+ are burning out even if it takes several years for it to really be apparent
this all sounds brutal
I'm at a big 4 MM and I can say 90% of the office is empty 1 hour before the open and 1hour after the close.
60-70 hours/week when you are building out a new strategy. Most likely when the pod is spinning up. Goes up to 80 hours during super busy (volatile) times of the year (earnings season, energy market meltdown, etc.). Goes down to 30 hours per week during weeks with low news. The average might only be 40 hours per week, but keep in mind you work every hour. There's very little garbage time in trading.
P72; 70-80h but this includes logging on at home to finish a couple of bits off before I call it for the night. Frequently do Sundays too, did both days on the weekend during my ramp, however. Anecdotally, the teams that have reputations for consistently producing throughout the MM world seem to be doing 6 days.
The above poster mentioned that if you're worried about WLB then MM world might not be for you. Generally speaking, I would agree. The hours you do might be lower than IB/PE, but you need to produce ideas very frequently in pretty tight risk parameters to the point where you need to be constantly plugged into your coverage. There's also the stress of job security, I would suggest this job if you genuinely love markets/stocks and don't mind making your life as a junior revolve around learning the trade. The channel check/monitoring period can also be quite mundane and scalping alpha quarterly really requires you to focus on the details colouring your revenue builds and margin bridges.
I think this is a big misconception some people have come into interviews for MMs, especially from IB, they'll often pitch a high-level idea with a few years on the outlook based on generic business growth in an expanding sector and some solid fundamental analysis. This can often be more enjoyable, and less time-intensive than crawling through 10-k/10-q to back out the odd item that is a temporary tailwind for current biz momentum to see where "real" margins are headed in the next year and trying to capture the print that will align the market with your view. Just my 2C.
Last paragraph is a really great point, can you expand on it and mention an example or two of ideas that you have to come up with and how you'd ideate and diligence them?
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