Been told I’m not ready for associate
I’m a 3rd year analyst at a boutique IB and I’ve just had my end of year / bonus review.
Bad news is I’ve been told I’m not ready for associate and have been put in the lower bucket for bonus. I’ve been told I’m too ‘quiet’ and I’ve only been doing what I’m told rather than taking initiative, having my own opinion and managing transactions.
As I’m at a boutique it’s less structured than a BB where you normally get promoted after 2-3 years experience without necessarily having to be exceptionally good, I.e my flatmate is at BAML and he was promoted to an IB associate 19 months after joining as a graduate analyst fresh out of university, he became associate at the age of 22 a couple months before he turned 23.. pretty nuts how fast the promote!
At my boutique (similar to most boutiques) you really take on more responsibility than the BB’s and have to step up so I feel I would have most likely been promoted to associate at a BB, it’s just much harder here and you essentially have to prove your VP+ material in the making.
I’ve been told I’m not being fired but instead they hope this will act as constructive criticism to fuel my motivations to improve. They said they will reevaluate me in 6 months to see if I’ve stepped up to be promoted or if not then there is the risk of me being let go.
Not sure what to do and would appreciate advice, do I try to motivate myself to improve and stay here? Or do I use this feedback to improve and look elsewhere for lateral roles where I can have a fresh start, and perhaps join a more established firm with more structure where I would be more likely to be promoted to associate.
thank you
Look to improve, and look for a new role as an associate somewhere else in the meantime. Simple.
look to lateral ASAP...its much harder to get a job when you are unemployed...also....for whatever reason you don't fit in here...so its time to leave
Act as if you'll continue to try your best in your current state. In reality you should try to GTFO ASAP. If it comes up in interviews, just say that you've performed well and blah blah but the firm let you know they don't have the headcount for an associate. Should be able to get a ASO 0/1 position somewhere I would think.
This
what's the best way to go about lateraling without an extensive network?
For laterals it's really less about network and more about experience. I'd set up job alerts on LinkedIn and Indeed, and connect with guys like Tom Ragland who is one of the best HHs to connect with for IB lateral positions.
I'm not trying to be rude, but If you don't know this, then you are more behind than you think and makes me think you are less motivated than you lead on in your post. You need to get in front of as many HHs as you can ASAP. Get in their pipeline. Tell them what kind of role you want. Be a little choosy.
If you are ready, def go for it in many ways.
But people do talk about that, such as which interns won’t get the return / which analysts def leave without offers after 2,3 yrs. if the reason you were placed in low bucket was object, would recommend think about internal solutions before jumping fence
Don't take them at their word that they're not planning to can you. They never say 'hey, we're planning to can you in a few months, so don't work too hard for the next while'.
By all means try to improve but you should be looking elsewhere.
Agree with this. The formal review here serves as written documentation that will allow the firm to fire OP and cite performance without worrying about a wrongful termination lawsuit
Does the name of the firm rhyme with Toelis?
I've been doing this for a year and a half and I'm not ready to be an associate either
A lateral move may be good, and it may in fact lead you to succeed where you were struggling before. With some people, it really is night and day with a change in scenery
That said, I think you need to be honest with yourself about how you need to improve your performance. Do you really think that JPM or whoever just promotes all of their bottom bucket analysts to associate after 3 years? My point is that you need to take the feedback seriously because being an associate really does involve more than being a good analyst.
Not sure how many of these are applicable to your situation, but if you're just sitting around waiting to be told to do something, I'm not sure that youre going to succeed at a BB either
This is extremely true. You can't just assume that things will be different at another bank. I've worked at both a boutique and a BB and I didn't really notice much of a change in responsibility for analysts or associates. The only factor where responsibility really increases drastically is a small deal team. When I was in a small dealt team at my boutique, there was no one in between the second year analyst and MD so the second year was actually supposed to be acting like a VP+. Those second years that were put on those deals were usually top bucket but if you had the misfortune of being in that position and were only performing at the level of an associate, then you would still be in a very bad position. My BB never had this dynamic as we had more normal sized deal teams but like I said, the responsibility was really not different at either bank if the deal teams were the same size.
One of my friends told me third year is one of the worst years because you're expected to act like an Associate while getting paid like an Analyst. He was so right.
This 100%. Not saying this is necessarily the OP, but back when I was an IB associate I worked with numerous analysts who would constantly sit around and wait for explicit instructions. This is maybe fine when you first start, but I worked with second-year analysts who were like this. For example one analyst would be cc'd on an email to me from our VP/MD asking for a section of the PPT to be updated - the email was addressed to me, however the analyst was the one who had put that entire section together. He didn't have much other work on so I assumed he would take the lead as I was busy with other stuff - however when I asked him 2.5 hours later how it was coming along, he was just sitting there and hadn't thought to start working on anything.
These analysts all had very strong academics etc (otherwise they wouldn't be in IB I guess) - so I don't know if it was laziness or just a lack of critical/analytical thinking, but they made pretty useless junior bankers. Again I'm not saying this is what the OP is like, but just something for him to consider if he has been like this previously.
I think the key thing to remember is as an analyst, your job is to make the lives of the people above you easier. So anything you can do to help with that is value-add - as the above poster says, make notes in meetings and read every email in detail to see if you can help out in a meaningful way. Also take the initiative - the ideal scenario for an associate is where an analyst is almost managing the transaction, i.e. doing everything he can to manage the process and minimize the work required for the associate/VP. If you're not doing any of these things, and simply following direct instructions from your associate - then I would probably agree with the feedback (i.e. that you're not yet ready to be promoted). If that's the case, then take the advice from your superiors and also the responses on here as constructive feedback, and do everything you can to become a superstar analyst ready for that associate promotion.
Good luck!
Did you tell them they're not ready to be MD ?
^^ Underrated post
Dont forget to also give them a performance rating (out of 5) across the core competencies and an overall rating, and give them tips for next year and outline a progression plan. Maybe even suggest a few internal courses - everyone needs to develop on communication, and let them know you felt the course helpful. You could be their mentor, but as you're quite busy running deals, smashing LBOs and impressing daily like a Shelby ... probably best its through fortnightly catchups for a few mins but check with the team EA for an opening. Always finish off on a positive note by commending them on their efforts during the year, and to enjoy themselves at the Xmas party.
I think there are a lot of good and relevant comments here but what comes to my mind is this - do you agree with the team's assessment of you? In your post you have not brought this topic up which may be due to a lack of introspection. Once you give it a think and evaluate the feedback (as objectively as possible), then you might be able to make a better decision. If they are nailed on in their assessment, I'd say go all out and try to improve while at the same time giving yourself options outside the firm. If you genuinely feel the feedback is unfair and largely unwarranted, then probably bolt the hell out of there immediately.
I really don't think their feedback is an honest assessment of your ability. If you're cut out to be an analyst, you're cut out to be an associate, barring any serious behavioral issues they missed when they first interviewed you (e.g., you smashing your keyboard when you're mad, reports of sexually harassing coworkers, farting in the coffee pot). In my opinion, they're priming the ax for when or if they need to protect their budget. I would lateral out before the timer runs out. You're better than they're trying to make you believe. I've seen people mouthbreathe their way up to VP at some of the largest banks.
Good luck, homie.
Some good comments above...
I would add (I’m from a different but similar line of work) that one of the key things for me in stepping up was anticipation of others’ questions and actively going outside my job scope.
E.g. You’re performing model runs and you know everything you have done is correct, but some of the results look weird/inconsistent purely because of the economics of the deal in question. It’s important to have a convincing (and correct) explanation for why the results look weird so that your boss can trust the data and make a decision immediately without having to send you away to verify the results.
Eg2, I don’t know how it works in banking, but there are certain elements of a deal I will take care of entirely on my own (other than pulling the trigger on an engagement) so as to free up my bosses time. Dealing with a model auditor, for example, is a complete waste of your bosses time and very painful. If you can take on a basic task like this from RfP to opinion letter, and only involving your boss when it comes to pulling the trigger on the engagement (having put together a spread sheet comparing the offers) then you’re freeing up a lot of wasted time for him/her. I use an example relevant that’s probably not relevant to banking but the principle applies nonetheless.
Eg3, You've been in the job long enough now and done enough deals that you know how it all works. You should therefore be going outside the scope for which you were hired. Hired just to build models? Ok. But you should now be able and willing to insert your own markups in documentation rather than just leaving it all for the associate. Look at what the job of the associate actually consists of and start doing it. You don’t need someone to give you permission/a new title.
Ignore the comments about getting out asap - those are deflecting and will harm you longer term.
Rather focus on addressing the feedback itself. If you're getting this kind of feedback at your current firm, you'd get it anywhere. The positive is they like you enough to give you the opportunity to improve so clearly you're doing something good. Focus on issues they brought up and be more proactive in getting more interim feedback as you're trying to improve.
Ultimately you may want to lateral, but initially the goal should be to take the constructive criticism to heart and actively try to better yourself.
Sign of the times if a constructive post like this is getting MS.
Something else to note when I was receiving feedback for the associate promote was if I was already acting as an associate. During my review, I was asked about certain projects with associates and if that associate were not there, would I be able to do what they are doing on my own? That's the true test of it. I was told early on in banking that you should be performing one level higher than your current position in order to deserve a promotion. Remember that when they promote you, they want you to start acting like an associate from day one, not six months into the job because you will automatically be staffed on projects where you are the only associate.
With your attitude you could always join a startup .... then get fired in 3 months. Just kidding, I don't know the inner workings of your firm mate.
It’s my opinion that any 3rd year analyst is ready for the associate role if they’ve made it that far. It’s ridiculous that they wouldn’t promote you and instead take an associate straight out of an MBA program who doesn’t even know excel shortcuts.
You need to get out of there quickly. Update your resume and let headhunters know you’re in hyperdrive. Focus on improving relationships with one or two people at the firm you’re at so you have decent references. Don’t operate under the assumption they won’t fire you in 6 months, because they probably will no matter how much you do. There’s tons of lateral positions available, but PE is tougher. If choosing the latter, you need to start studying modeling tests ASAP.
Good luck.
Honestly, I wouldn’t take the advice telling you to move out ASAP. If the firm wanted you out they would have fired you. No reason to be paranoid here. I will caveat though, that if you don’t trust them then you can move. The worst thing you can do to yourself is work within a small team setup where you question everything.
Second order of business would be to really think hard whether you think being quiet / not being proactive are your only faults. Only you know the real answer, so don’t come to a forum full of strangers to feel good about yourself. That’s your mind tricking you there. It’s easier to blame people than owning ones faults.
Third order of business, own the problem. Now that you know it, accept it and start working on it. No one ever solved a problem by saying “its not my problem”. Sit with your superiors who gave you the feedback, align on the 2-3 things that you need to improve and what the measures of success would be and ask for bi-monthly check ins to ensure that you’re developing.
Lastly, and this is something I tell all the young people I work with, building a good model/presentation is table stakes. Everyone should be able to do that. But this job primarily is about people, you need to be able to anticipate things before they happen and have a plan. You need to get people to like you to do stuff for you that they normally wouldn’t. Don’t make your job difficult by being a machine.
Pretty amazing how mostly younger/less experienced posters are like "get out asap" "if you can do analyst you can do associate they are screwing you"....whereas the more experienced posters are like "take a deep breath and evaluate the situation...use the feedback to improve before making any moves". Lots of good advice on this site but you really need to weed through a lot of bs to get it.
People who most frequently did not get the A2A offer at my bank, even though they were strong analysts, were only good at purely executing and did not anticipate and truly know how to manage the process. Like are you confirming things make sense in a model (instead of simply running #s and checking they're "right"), when a new project comes along are you proactively pulling together a shell of a new book, do you start compliance / post-close processes on your own or wait for somebody to tell you to do so? And even if you are proactively doing things, are you just doing things exactly the same as they were done before, or are you looking at ways to improve processes, templates, etc.?
Just because you're doing associate- or VP-level type of work, doesn't mean you're acting like one. It's a big distinction.
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