I am in a niche group at a top bank with a small intern class. I do good work and I stay long hours but my peers are taking it to another level. They work on the weekends willingly and always ask for more work, which is fine but working on the weekends is insane. I need my sanity and I want to explore NYC but I'm afraid the other interns working OT is going to hurt my chances. What are your thoughts on how I should handle the situation?
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How bad do you want it? Seems like you're in a top group and can move around down the line, but in this market right now, your peers are acknowledging that they have to take every step to ensure their survival.
You have like six or less weeks left. It sucks rn but the light at the end is visible. So again, how bad do you want it?
Not saying I dont want it, but I am already working crazy hours on the weekdays. I can barely get through the week with little sleep, I need at least some time to unwind just for my mental health. But yea, I could just push through for the next couple of weeks.
Typical hardo comment…
Yeah, I guess it is a hardo comment. Call me a hardo then. Idk why I do this to myself but I'm going on a fuckin tony soprano rant just because of this.
I'm so sick and tired of how it's trendy to be immobilized by indecision in this day and age. Maybe because I didn't get the angsty rich-teen adolescence it seems a lot of this forum had, I feel this way, but what the fuck happened to being hungry for something? Acknowledging the means to that end you want 'sucks', that it is 'scary' or 'risky' to burn the boats and go all-in, go wide-open for it. A lot of my peers in college just couldn't understand why I was constantly working hard, and I couldn't understand why they weren't. Then I'd visit their houses and realize why.
I think it's allegorical to elitists as a whole, the entire tragedy of the commons agenda (it's the same reason analyst years suck). Yeah, if nobody wanted to make a lot of money, then the people already making a lot of money could fuck-off and not worry about being morally-upstanding, etc., but the truth is it's a zero-sum game.
So let's say OP (not directing this at you, but merely as an example) is working hard because that's how he's been raised; to do a job the right way. The caveat is that he has a safety net of Benjamins he can fall back on if he doesn't get a return, thanks to pa. At some level, he's gonna push back/not be as hungry/not care about a return because life goes on and he can be indecisive and hang around with the 'rents for a year. Now, let's say his peers putting in these 90hr weeks, asking for more, don't have that safety net. They're asking for more because life doesn't just 'go-on' as easily if they don't get the return. They have a motivation of changing their lives (or at the very least, surviving) and because of that, they'll eat all the shit they have to.
So bitch and moan all you want about hardos. Yeah, some of them may have the affluent background and then in that case I agree that they are a fundamental reason to some of the 'problems' in banking. But some of them - I'm willing to wager there's more in this group - are hardos because they have put their entire wills to live into their careers.
You don't like it, go be indecisive at dad's summer home. I certainly envy the easygoing lack of urgency that some of you get to have, and God forbid my kids end up that way.
We all know that return offer rates are gonna be bad in this market, so if you're really depending on this return then you better match your peers. I mean if you dc about banking and have other options then do as you please
Either compete with your peers for the offer or take it easy completely. This middle ground you are doing is not the answer. The market sucks right now, especially for IB spots, so you are going to have to go toe to toe if you want the offer. You going 95% sticks out when everyone else is doing 100% on a relative scale and all it takes is usually one loud mouth analyst or associate to note it during offer discussions to tank you. Its only a few weeks so unless you are mentally breaking down or have a serious medical issue, give it your all and earn that offer.
Attitude is super important during an internship. With that said, always be available and willing to help but there's no need to overdo it. If it's 3 am and there isn't anything urgent that needs to be completed until the next morning, just ask your team if they need your help on anything tonight and if they don't then there's no need to push for it.
On weekends, I would definitely not be pushing for work. You should be available and happy to help if there is weekend work, but the approach (at least at my bank) is that weekend work is avoided if possible. If there isn't any work that needs to be done during the weekend, don't run around asking for weekend work.
I had a few tryhards in my intern class that pushed the hours really hard. I always asked if there was anything I could help with, but also pushed back on working late unless there was a tight deadline. I.e. if it was 3 am and I knew I had more work to do but it didn't need to be finished today I would ask if it's OK to head home and pick it up tomorrow rather than staying until 6 am while my fellow interns would happily stay until 6 am and come in bragging about the late night next day. I ended up with an offer and they didn't, simply because my work was better than theirs.
With that said, attitude is important but the quality of your work is also very important. If you constantly push for work, you will often fail to meet deadlines or end up in a time crunch and produce work with low quality. It's better to take your time and produce work with excellent quality. That way you don't end up fucking someone else by taking on more work than you can handle or people needing to re-do your work. As an intern, you are an extra resource. You are not essential to the team (if an intern is ever the bottle-neck in a project, your team has messed up real bad). Your team would much rather have you complete 1 task with excellent quality rather than 3 tasks with poor quality where they have to double-check and re-do all your work.
This is just my take from what you have said and in reality it might be different but I would suggest that it is not as black-and-white as some suggest. It sounds like you're putting in the good weekday hours but your interns are going that extra 10% on weekends. I would hazard a guess that some will be adding value on the weekend but a fair amount will just be showing good attitude and logging some average productivity hours. I think there is a middle ground you can (and maybe should) aim for here. Attitude is literally the most important thing in an internship, if you can show you're willing to go as close to that extra 10% without sacrificing your sanity then it will pay dividends further down the line. It's a brutal market and I would strongly encourage doing everything you can to show this. If you're struggling with the lack of sleep, I would really recommend finding some activity/hobby that will help keep you sane and calm (some good posts about this elsewhere on the forums).
I hope this helps, you will have plenty of opportunities to explore NYC when you hopefully get that FT offer :)
Do what you need to do to get the return offer. If you don't, you live with what comes down the pike.
someone has to carry the boats, eh?
they dont know me son
IB is a great opportunity but don't kill yourself over it if you can't commit to the lifestyle and the job. I did a SA stint at a boutique with chill hours, and even with more normal hours it was still not congruous with what I wanted for my life (plus I didn't think I was particularly good at what I did and couldn't see myself growing into it well as my peers). With IB experience you'd still be able to land a pretty nice finance gig in another space after the internship - took me some time to find in this current job market but couldn't be happier with how it turned out.
What worked for me was working as hard as possible with the work I was given, and checking in occasionally if they had anything else they needed done. If they said no, I just left it at that and didn't push for more.
I think people like interns who work as hard as they can with what they are given but then don't go overly out of their way to try to make themselves seen. Other interns who objectively worked harder than I did but got kind of annoying with being a hardo didn't get returns.
I and a few others also just left the office in the evenings if all the FT bankers were gone. My bank specifically said I could do WFH as an intern if there was nothing to do in the office, and if there are no FT bankers to see you in the office, there's no point in staying. Some people even came in on weekends when there was nobody to see them there, yet rumor about it spread and they were seen as annoying hardos because of that.
Maybe IB isn’t for you then? Or try an easier group. If you struggle during your internship how will you do once you get an FT offer?
I would hardly say I'm struggling, I don't see how you got that from my comment. I am doing good quality work and working insane hours as it is. I am willing to work long hours but there is a point at which I need at once a week to catch up on sleep/doing basic human tasks like grocery shopping or something. I don't care about how much money I make if I am barely surviving.
The way I see it is that this is just a preview of what full-time would be like. If I cannot expect basic decency to have a few hours on the weekend to myself, then I won't work there. Just my personal preference. No hate to someone else that would be completely fine doing it.
Also this argument of "how much do you want it" cracks me up. This type of shit is exactly what banks want you to think so they can take advantage of you. I am not privileged or have Daddy's money as a backup. I do know, however, that I value my physical and mental health. There are other jobs and other industries in which you can be successful without completely giving these up.
There have been so many suicides in the industry lately and there are people here still pitching nonsense. Nothing matters more than your health. Kudos to everyone that can withstand the industry, but learning your limits as well as what you value is important as well.
Then just recruit for a different job for FT.
This experience is valuable on your resume, try to get a return offer so you don’t need to tell people you didn’t get a return offer.
I get what you say about caring about your health and maybe being happier in other industries. But I don’t think its wise to mention suicides and those kinds of events (extremely rare) without any context.
I am not the most knowledgeable as I’m still an intern like you so we don’t know how it is to work these hours for 5+ years, but when I’m at the office at 1 am people just have a good attitude, socialize every now and then and laugh every now and then. It’s mostly people that may not extremely enjoy the work but just value working hard for a long-term objective (which could be to become a millionaire, to become well respected in an industry you like, etc.).
It’s not that deep, its just a job. You are literally paid 4x the average salary in your early 20s to arrange logos and make pie charts. 99.9% of people would love to be there, mentioning the 0.0001% that would unfortunately commit suicide (almost certainly not because of the job but due to other factors you are not taking into account) because of the hours doesn’t make sense to me.
Enjoy the rest of the internship, learn as much as you can, and just get another job if you prefer. I agree with the rest that staying until 6 am every night probably doesn’t correlate to getting a return offer if there’s another intern working until 2 but having a higher quality of work
Very well said OP.
Unless the seniors in your group are also massive hardos you’re probably fine. Attitude and fit are much more important than living the industry, granted that your work is quality and you are responsive.
You'll get rewarded for doing great work - if you need some sanity on weekends, your work throughout the week will suffer. It is a tough market and it's 6 weeks left, so do be honest with yourself if you're currently working in a way that you really are as productive as you can be at work - or if net-net, doing a few hours extra over the weekends for this period will help you on a net positive level.
I definitely worked less hard than other summer analysts back in the day, but made sure that the work was triple checked and I was a safe pair of hands with a good cultural fit.
Only goes downhill from here.
Main difference in FT is that you'll be so buried in work that your peers won't have time to be pro-actively tryhards.
Sadly weekend work is standard in this industry. Not trying to dissuade you from the role but share the realities of IB.
Probably best to find a lifestyle shop or a non-sweaty one at least. I started at the most heinous boutique and I’m much happier at my current job.
It doesn't sound like OP would want a return offer at his current shop.
I'd coast your balls off, fuck with the tryhards and then just recruit for a chiller IB role or something a little more mellow for FT next semester. Could be a less sweaty IB group, an ECM/DCM role, a lending role, an investing role, I've heard great things about REPE, etc.
Don't think you have to torture yourself to work a good job and have a good life, OP. It's really only in IB (and a few megafunds) that chronic exhaustion is part of the package. We also have a tendency to develop stockholm syndrome so take some of these other comments with a grain of salt. When you're in the thick of the bullshit it's tempting to justify your suffering by telling yourself all types of silly things. The reality is there are plenty of people doing well who don't work 90 hour weeks and sacrifice their health, so if you find yourself doing that you prob really are in a fucked up scenario.
Great advice. I see soo many people suffering through pure torture for all the wrong reasons. It could be because they've worked so hard to get there and now they don't want to throw it away, because it's what they're "supposed" to do, because people expect it of them or whatever.
Don't throw away your 20s torturing yourself at a job that you don't like. If you had the preconditions to get into IB, you have the precondition to get into pretty much any other industry within finance / business. Most of those industries will still give you great comp (even if lower than IB). Most of them will have a better WLB and many of them will have more stimulating tasks.
First and foremost, it's important to have a clear work plan. Take some time to plan out your tasks and prioritize them accordingly. By setting targets and aligning your actions with your plans, you can stay organized and focused. It might also be helpful to establish a better framework for managing your work.
Considering your situation, I believe the key solution lies in requesting more flexibility and a better work plan. Don't hesitate to approach your supervisors and express your need for a healthier work-life balance. Explaining how a revised plan would assist you in addressing any challenges you're facing can be beneficial.
By seeking more flexibility, you can explore options like adjusting your working hours, discussing remote work possibilities, or finding alternative ways to contribute effectively within regular working hours. This approach aims to ensure you maintain your sanity and have the opportunity to enjoy the vibrant atmosphere of NYC.
Remember, having a clear work plan and open communication with your supervisors will enable you to manage your workload more efficiently, meet your targets, and still have time for personal pursuits. Prioritizing your well-being and making thoughtful choices that support a positive work-life balance is vital.
I'm starting FT and I'm not excited about, same as you. But I'm just gonna push through for 12-18 months so I can boost my career growth in other sectors that I care more about more and that will give me a more balanced lifestyle. Also I usually feel happy after doing hard stuff, like working out.
I think your approach is the best honestly. While you shouldn't spend your life slaving away doing something you don't like, 1-4 years is really nothing in the grand scheme of things, and the EO's make it worth it imo.
I'm always perplexed by these work life balance threads on internships.
Your job for 8-10 weeks is to crush it and get a return offer to a top job.
can relate so much. i’m a chill person and introvert, in situation that’s similar to yours. I hated banking for the first few weeks, and i’m adjusting better now. still hate it to some extent, that I don’t really care if i have a return offer or not. my current hours are like 9am-10pm, sometimes I get out earlier sometimes past 11pm but i’ve never stayed past midnight. my peers stay later than me and some of them have had past 2 am work. I don’t work on weekends. yes the pay is good, but most times i felt like stay for more hours cannot cover the therapy money i’ll spend due to working more.
surprisingly my mid summer reviews are great, we’ll see if i get a return. if not i can officially kiss banking goodbye
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