I work for a shit bank in a shit team and I love it. If you want to have a fairly easy life read ahead!
Basically I'm at a popular investment bank that people make fun of on here a lot. We do not have much deal flow and our hours are typically 8am to 8pm. We are stronger outside the USA, thats the only hint I wanna drop.
I still pull in over 6 figures after breaking in from Big 4 audit(which would have been impossible for an actual US BB) and I feel really grateful to be in such a situation.
I am among the top rated analysts, I'm still considered an "investment banker" even though I'm not in M&A to chicks and people outside the industry and job security is pretty strong people here that want to stay last decades, we are all really laid back and was told recently by an MD "We aren't competing with JP Morgan so take it easy".
I saw a post on here from a guy who lateraled from the midwest in a regional bank to a west coast BB and now he's struggling, I wouldn't take an offer from any US BB until I'm at least a Director and contrary to what people say on WSO those banks recruit from my bank at all levels. I don't understand why a lot of people do that they keep pushing themselves till they break physically or mentally, life is for living to me and since we're already in a high pressure, high achieving job I have no desire continue seeking even higher achieving roles till I feel burnt out.
Not every one wants to be a God like banker and I am one of those people. Another person posted here on WSO that my bank should be avoided and he just lateraled to a BB and I couldn't help but think if we are so bad how come we always exit to competitive roles at PE, some HFs and a lot of BB IB's.
I think if you're yet to break into the industry, and are considering having a simple life, look towards big banks that people on WSO say have no prestige, might be one of the best decisions you make if you value WLB and a laid back culture
Lmfao I literally said this exact same thing not too long ago. If the sophomores on here, say your bank is "shit" or has no dealflow or exits you run that way. Now I get paid the same for 50-60hr weeks, so glad I didn't give into the bs on this forum
Dude this should be the formula. One WSO peeps say your firm has no dealflow start sending in applications. I was almost a victim till I saw my peers being driven to near suicide at GS. I also didn't mention one thing, no one is allowed to have meetings or send emails on Fridays, people still do but its not as much. This basically means I get a three day weekend most weeks if I can manage to finish work early, I went skiing the other week and didn't check my emails, I got back on Tuesday and the only emails I got were from compliance about recent legal changes all while pulling in 120k
Damn! Please tell us where you work lol
No deal flow can also mean endless pitching, if looking for lifestyle capital markets tends to be better.
can confirm that at some intl banks advisory groups will be very sweaty and have poor culture / morale due to poor deal flow and tons of pitching
-
I don't wanna say but I'll drop a list a few banks that I know for a fact has similar culture, my bank is among them.
Teams to apply to: Corporate Banking, DCM, Origination, ECM.
Banks:
Macquarie
Wells Fargo
RBC
HSBC
US Bank
CIBC
Scotiabank
Valley Bank
Citizens Bank
BNP Paribas
would you mind explaining in very simple terms what origination is please? i tried to look it up online but the description i am reading looks like the job description of an MD in any investment bank, basically sourcing deals and looking for prospects.
Am I mistaken?
Has to be HSBC. If your bank is stronger outside the US that eliminates all the domestic banks. I don't think RBC is stronger in Canada than the US. And none of the other international banks are ones that people like the make fun of.
Why don't you go tell the guys at M&A or PU&I at RBC what a slow-paced, non-competitive culture they have. You'll make a lot of friends lmao
Disagree with you here on Citizens. I left after 20 years- they ran us into the ground.. I'm now living la vida loca- got a 32% annual bonus on top of my mid 6 figures salary and work 8:30-4:30 every day- sometime 9-3. Never more than 35 hours a week and laughing my ass off when people are looking down on the bank I moved into.
that all sounds great and i'm happy for you but I think a lot of people here just want to be the best at what they do. Knowing that your best is not good enough is an awful feeling. The average WSO member is very driven, want their work done to a high standard, and would likely not feel at peace if they sacrificed quality. They do not want an easy life - they enjoy being challenged and eventually reflecting on how it initially seemed impossible and now it's easy. It's like that Jay-Z quote "I'd rather die enormous than live dormant". Personally, when I try and fail I don't have regrets. But when I didn't try I keep thinking "what if" and that eats me up.
Yeah you're right but thats why I said I don't understand it. I can never live like that and I'm not dormant, I still work in Banking and i've met a few people here at my firm who went to HYP, its not like i'm a pre school teacher. We're all still in the same industry ie high finance. Like formula 1, GS/JPM/MS etc might be like Redbull, Ferrari and Mercedes and the bank I work for is like Mclaren or Renault, we're still at the upper echelon of our field and most girls and outsiders will quantify us as the same. If they're into bankers they'll be into us as much as our peers at BB's
i don't think there's anything wrong with either approach to life. it's a strongly individual choice. It's good that you made this post because people can reflect on their choice at least for a few minutes after reading this.
What's wrong with being a pre-school teacher? I guarantee dealing with spoiled kids 8 hours a day and 9 months a year is more soul-crushing and thankless when you're paid $45k/year for it.
Not that I disagree about the comment about people on this forum. But it’s a little cringe to me that “being the best” equates to sucking a VPs dick at 3am at a prestigious bank.
Everyone I know who “loves the grind” also loves complaining about it, yet won’t ever leave. And while many of them are my good friends, it makes them look pathetic to be chained to a career that makes them objectively miserable, despite taking pride in doing it. I'm also not excluding myself from that assessment, and it's something that I actively work on.
Lol chill out you fucking hardo. The only thing the average user cares about on here is their fucking prestige and reputation, cause 3/4 the people on here are conceited, egotistical, insecure, rich daddy dick breath pricks haha
This would hold a lot more weight if it was from a Certified M&A Associate 2 or above, not an intern in M&A. Its great to have extremely high expectations of "wanting the best" when you're in college, but let me know if you still do after your 2 year analyst stint. I am not trying to poke fun at you or even say you are wrong, but those first two years destroy 99% of people's desire to stay in IB / PE. Personally I think if PE recruiting didn't start so damn early even more folks would leave.
I went from wanting the best (like you) to OP, who described the importance of a good wlb. Now I find myself awkwardly in the middle, where I still want more, but am extremely appreciative of the fact that I get 6+ hours of sleep and a workout in every day.
I'm curious about how you think about your situation. I'm in a position where I really like my company and the work I do, and so long as I stay at the company for a reasonable amount of time, I can expect to do fairly well in terms of upside over the course of my career but not amazingly.
I don't really love where I live and I could definitely make more than I'm making now. A considerable chunk of people where I work feels the exact same. The job and WLB are great, but the comp and location could be better. I've decided to definitely stick it out at my current company in the meantime (i.e. ~next 2 years after ~1 year at current company) but have definitely considered when I might want to think about leaving (most likely within 5 years from now).
I'm definitely among the type of people who "want the best" and I have high expectations for myself, but the company I work for is more WLB focused. I'm curious if in life generally I'll find that fulfilling. I know that's a bit existential and maybe more of a personal thing.
I'm curious what made you yourself want to take and or keep your current job, and how you balance your desire for "wanting the best."
On my end of things, many have told me the "quest for glory" ends the same way for someone in my position as it does for them. We'll all make a lot of money (but I'll have better WLB than the other guy/gal). Additionally, I've really come to appreciate the WLB I get, even though that had no reason for why I took my current job. I know this is a bit all over the place, but I figured I'd put a good bit down to tell you where I'm coming from.
just chiming in to say great screen name!
The average WSO'er thinks that until they're 6 months into their job.
sure bro. that's what life is all about. that's why the monkeys were developing for millions of years, and fish came out of water. so that you can earn acknowledgment points from your bosses for the slides that nobody will ever read.
…go to startups or HF (or maybe 3-letter agencies) if you want to “Die Enormous”
Big fish in a small pond is the way to go for a lot of people
Found the Nomura analyst!
Yea OP definitely works at a Japanese bank
Nah i made a list above that includes my bank and Nomura and Mizhuo weren't even there
Gotta be Nomura or Mizuho.
Nah not at a japanese bank, check the list i made above
Yeah you are everyone makes fun of Nomura and you literally tagged the post as Japan (on mobile at least)
Probably RBC or BNP
Should be Wells Fargo!
im so jaded i wish my bank had no deal flow, im so tired working 3 ams every day and now i have a call scheduled at 6 pm on a friday night to create materials client is expected on monday, i wish i was in ur position lol
I'm still considered an "investment banker" even though I'm not in M&A to chicks
And that's a good thing? Was this post written in 2005?
its beyond good its orgasmic
You have the right mindset, OP.
Burning yourself out during your Analyst stint at a sweatshop elite boutique because of the ephemeral prestige is more foolish than I can describe. Preserving your mental and physical health should come first.
A lot of try-hards come full throttle from day 1, and after a few months on the job, quit and post a "I just quit as a 1st year analyst" post on WSO.
College students and people at the Analyst level fail to understand that you can mint coin if you can just survive in IB long enough to be a senior banker. If at that point, you want to lateral to GS/MS, that is also possible.
At my BB, I see lateral hires from "lesser" banks all the time. Yes, even at the MD level.
Far too often, I see one of my star Analysts leave to a Megafund PE for higher comp, burn out in a year, and move to CorpDev. Nothing wrong with CorpDev of course, but since his goal at the outset was higher comp, he would have been better served staying at IB, where I could see that he had potential to be an excellent senior banker.
One caveat I should add is that you should not equate poor dealflow with good WLB.
My group has excellent dealflow, but that means that my Analysts don't have to slave over bullshit pitches that will never amount to anything.
This is getting to be more and more common where I am. A combination of unrealistic expectations and not taking to heart that this line of work is a marathon, not a sprint. "Try hard" vibes are starting to be a pass from me when recruiting. It's just too much to deal with to train knowing attrition and burnout is not far away.
The most successful MD I worked for at a boutique was a construction worker at 22. He worked his tail off to get into an M7 and was very personable, and ended up generating more in revenue on year than our entire LA office (4-5+ MDs). The hard part is getting into IB, but the hardest part is surviving it.
Source: didn't last long.
Quick question, how does an MD who breaks in after construction source deals when he's older. I always thought sourcing deals came from closeknit personal relationships like childhood friends and college buddies etc, I might have to make a new thread because I was always curious about that
How does one find a bank/group with both good dealflow and good WLB?
delete
Honestly this post reads like a load of bullshit. What MD in banking is going to post about “bullshit pitches that dont lead to anything”? Seriously? This just reads like an intern/analyst masquerading as an MD
I believe WSO has a feature where if there is a star on the persons icon, they have been verified. He has a star on his so he has been vetted and certified as a Managing Director in IB and thats why so many people have him SB's so fast
Can I come work for you?
Could you DM me? I'd be interested to chat with you further.
Good perspective, not everyone wants to grind out at GS TMT and move to a megafund. If you're happy, you're happy and "being the best" really doesn't mean grinding out till all hours of the night lol.
The only issue IMO is the lack of deal experience. Probably won't hurt you in the early years but VP and above, you literally are your deal experience. Not just for recruiting, but as you start to advise clients. Have a colleague who's come from this background and they're def a bit handicapped when it comes to day to day execution.
Its not like we have zero deals, we still do, our comp wouldn't be this high if we didn't, I'm just staffed on one deliverable at a time. Unlike BB and EB folks with multiple of varying difficulty and urgency
Am curious - what is a reasonable compensation package for an MD at a good WLB MM? Or even at one of the banks OP listed? Can you get past the $500K mark? Past the $1M mark? Not that it matters, provided you enjoy the QoL you have, but am truly curious. I'm asking for a middle of the road MD who has a relatively decent circle of clients, maintains good relationships, has a good amount of repeat business, not a rainmaker by any standards and probably wins 50-60% of their pitches.
Lol definitely past the $1m mark would not be uncommon at any bank i listed, I think it would average at just under $1m though for an average year, check the reply of the MD that chimed in above. He corroborated my experiences of people at these banks being hired to BB's and EB's at all levels. So even if you aren't getting $1m there, it wouldn't be all that hard to lateral to a BB who would hire you. Don't believe WSO, I've seen it happen from An1 to Director
A MM bank that is a little sweaty says they look to target about $2mm in fees per MD and then they pay out about $1mm per MD.
I don't know dude, I work at the type of bank/team you're describing, and since day 1 I've been conflicted if it's a benefit or a drawback.
Right now I appreciate the lifestyle. I'm not working into the night, haven't worked a weekend for months, and my in-office/wfh schedule is very flexible. I have plenty of time to pursue my hobbies, spend time with friends/family, and travel. My compensation is higher than anything I'd get in a different industry. I got my name on some deals, and their small size and relative lack of complexity meant I could play a bigger role as a junior. I asked to step up and get more responsibility, so my team let me take over parts of the deal where analysts typically wouldn't be as involved. My team is very laid back and very understanding of everyone's time, so 9pm comments that should be turned by the morning aren't a thing.
However, I had to lower my expectations a lot to appreciate the lifestyle. My compensation is low for banking, even compared to the market average. Every bonus season I know I will never see the same numbers as my peers, and this year is no exception. I was also frequently frustrated because I felt like I wasn't reaching my full potential. Our deal flow wasn't consistent and most deals were insignificant, so I felt like I was wasting my time either doing nothing or working on something pointless that had no chance of going through. The actual work also hasn't changed much either, even after my promotion. I feel like I'm still a Year X Analyst vs an associate working at the next level to eventually become a VP.
In all, I wouldn't recommend this path for most people, unless lifestyle is your top priority above experience, career trajectory, and compensation. I feel like starting out at a "lifestyle bank" made me not want to trade work-life balance for a better career, even as I'm coming to realize that I want more than what my bank is offering me. In my opinion, it's a lot easier to try out the grind while you're young and motivated and leave after opening doors for yourself, than to have a better life early and realize that you're not where you want to be.
The lifestyle thing works for me personally since my fiancée is like 20x more driven than me. We’re fine with her being more career focused and me having more free time for house stuff
I asked something super similar in an above question but would appreciate your perspective too seeing you're at associate level. Now, I'm in a totally different industry so maybe your answer won't be applicable to me.
I get that careers are marathons and not sprints. I get that I'll do perfectly well if I stay where I am. I just get this nagging feeling I could work harder. I don't know. Do I ignore it or follow it? Right now, I'm going to ignore it, but maybe I won't forever. I'm curious about your thoughts on your situation, and if you'll stay where you are.
To be honest, I stayed because this was the first chance I was given in IB. I got into finance late in undergrad and my academics weren't stellar, so IB recruiting was a challenge. I felt like I owed it to the team to put in my time instead of just lateraling out at the first opportunity. That said, I never got complacent in my job. I asked to be more involved and maintained a good relationship with my senior team. I used my access to clients as an opportunity to develop relationships. To your point if you could work harder, I say you always can. If you're not swamped, it's a lot easier to ask for more responsibility and build a rapport with your team. You'd be surprised how much your team can help you out if you've proven yourself. Even seemingly complacent mid-level/senior bankers have a lot of relationships and will be willing to help you out if they see you want to get more out of your experience. Many people on this forum will say that you have to go to a top bank/group to secure a position in PE/HF/VC but that's not entirely true. You may not get as many looks, but you'll certainly have a realistic chance.
I am not planning to stay at my bank for my career and have already secured an exit. To preserve anonymity, all I'll say is that juniors who exit to my new firm typically come from much more reputable banks and all my new colleagues I found on LinkedIn have more impressive backgrounds than me. My comp will be much better but I'll have to sacrifice work-life balance, which is actually the reason I responded to this post. I was very conflicted whether this exit is a good idea and I'm sure it'll be tough to adjust to the hours. But this will also be a major boost for my resume, so even if I don't stay long-term, I'll have a lot more options than I do now.
In all, I'd say just don't get complacent. First, try to get as much out of your experience as you can. Then figure out if you want more out of your career and if your team can help you reach your goals, including any laterals/exits. If you decide to exit, try to leverage your team and relationships. It's perfectly possible that your current job satisfies all your needs, but if it doesn't, make sure you work to get to where you want to be. In the current market there are plenty of open spots across finance/corporate, so getting out is a lot easier than you think.
Lifestyle is beyond top priority for me, especially at this level of pay, I actually want to enjoy my money. And as the MD who spoke above said career trajectory at banks like mine are very linear and rewarding and lateralling to a BB at a more senior level is easier, so why would i burn myself out in 2 years then exit to corp dev? I think people underestimate how draining it is to consistently work till 4am, I did that in big 4 audit and almost had a mental breakdown.
I would rather have time to go skiing and drinking with friends and family
Totally fair point. What % of people who are in these top groups or what not and then leave to top PE shops stay in the space? With burnout rates so high, you can make a legitimate case for taking in more money over the course of the career if you are comfortable at the firm like the one it sounds like you work at. Obviously trade-offs with prestige and more narrow exit opps, but if you're fine with that, then why not, plus the case for enjoying your junior years far more given the ability to ski, etc.
I am sure there is a surprising % of kids who go to these top groups then burnout, say f*** it and abandon finance altogether (and with it these higher comparative pay rates.) I guess you could say these folks wouldn't have been able to be comfortable at a firm like the one you're describing, but something to think about.
The last sentence really hit home, appreciate the insightful comment~
Associate 1, I'm almost in an exact spot, and I feel the exact same thing. The WLB is great, comp significantly lower than street, but overall it's not too bad.
I think a critical thing for people like us, including OP, is to decide whether investment banking is the field where you want "potential maximization" and "life optimization". We have more time to think and actually pursue hobbies that might emerge to be the life calling or passion or whatever you name it. That is fairly lucky compared to some soul-crashing groups where analysts work 90 hours consistently.
Contrary to what someone above said regarding "pursuing what's best", you can be best at a lot of things other than editing PowerPoint fonts or formatting Excel tables. I know this sounds fucking cringe, but it comes to how you view life as a whole.
Can you DM me to chat? I had a couple questions for you.
"Basically I'm at a popular investment bank that people make fun of on here a lot."
reminded me of the "DB not a BB" memes from a while ago haha
100% HSBC IB
This is my guess as well
I was talking with my friends about how this is the move (working less hours at a lower ranked bank). I work at a top BB and my life is rough. We might get paid slightly more, but I generally work 9am-2am during the week, Saturday afternoon and generally on Sunday
It's a rough life. I got burnt out and needed to take some vacation. I also have heard so many negative things about PE (like others have mentioned here) so I see the point that working at a bank with little deal flow and getting paid the same is definitely one of the best gigs at the street
I don't think you have to do just ECM though. If you're in a coverage group at the bank that has little deal flow you probably have a similar experience
Yes.
Source: me in a coverage group with not-that-great deal flow. We will probably only close 1 deal in 2 years...not enough to feed 8 people.
12 hour days are still shit bro
For the amount of money i'm making as an a1, it isn't so bad. Plus there's days where I get to leave at 6.
Rothschild?
I heard Rothschild NYC was a sweatshop so nah I not them
I heard the opposite
Huge props sounds like you know what you’re about and made it happen
Sounds nice!
Do you ever ponder on your skills compared to peers at other banks, i.e. if you don’t get enough deal experience and would have difficulties in a new job? Would that be lateraling to a competitor or go buy side / corporate.
Would say that is my biggest scare; to switch firms and be tasked with stuff I “should” know - but have not been exposed to.
I guarantee you one thing: your skill sets won't differ by much, but when it comes to PE recruiting specifically, prestige matters a lot. That is when you will get burned by a less prestige brand name.
Less so for HF folks.
You should still do your DD on the company though. Know a guy who was at a bad bank and was paid below street but was constantly doing 17 hour days.
Works if you're at a balance sheet bank and not in Asia. You're there as an extra service provider for the corporate side.
Does not work if you're in Asia, period. Still had awful hours with awful pay.
.
Thank you for this post! I wish to pursue a similar opportunity. I'd like the title, some responsibility, but just enough that I overdeliver, and all the nice pay that comes with decent working hours (relative to BBs).
Go to corporate banking at a non us bb
I am at one of the banks that got listed. As a second year analyst, I’m looking at 170-190k all in working an average of 20 hours a week. I’ve literally had weeks where I didn’t do a single thing and this has happened multiple weeks in a row. The seniors on my team are so friendly and fun and I’m just so blessed every time I hear about a peer dying at another more prestigious bank. I am able to do whatever I want on weekends because I’ve never gotten weekend work either. Life is great as I feel like I have the money to do whatever I want and the time as well.
Y’all hiring?
Can you PM me, I'm looking into those listed banks for internships next summer. Don't come from a target school.
Where’s this at?
Is UBS/BOFA sweatshops too? How much of a sweatshop if yes? Would appreciate your responses
bump
Non et commodi magnam autem. Omnis officiis numquam ipsum qui id officiis. Magnam fugit nihil placeat exercitationem. Ipsam laborum aut eligendi molestiae. Magnam maxime placeat maiores cumque quibusdam iure et accusamus. Voluptatum et eius dicta delectus eveniet vel libero dignissimos. Ut eveniet earum assumenda.
Est numquam consequatur at ut vel ut fugit. Quisquam eligendi ab dolorem ipsa. Incidunt ab quisquam in sunt fugit deleniti at. Quo ratione culpa hic ullam natus est optio. Pariatur nihil commodi modi debitis dignissimos.
Delectus amet fuga deserunt ut enim incidunt sed. Ut consequuntur molestiae autem corporis esse molestiae ipsum sit. Aliquid sed impedit illo necessitatibus minus quo rem aut.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Doloribus reprehenderit quo illum commodi quos. Porro deserunt mollitia et impedit praesentium dolores reprehenderit nihil. Voluptas nam eum dolor iure cumque exercitationem modi. Iure tempora vitae veniam deserunt tempore. Quo autem suscipit iusto exercitationem. Totam omnis non aut quod. Nihil id aut impedit dolores ut blanditiis esse optio.
Neque temporibus alias reiciendis ad sit. Officiis exercitationem tenetur aut dolorem qui corporis. Ab facere ex necessitatibus sequi. Cupiditate libero iusto illo minima.
Sequi in occaecati dolores fugit. Similique ut voluptates quia inventore maxime quo inventore fugit. Quis sunt qui impedit quis omnis nisi accusamus.
Commodi ea sint eaque nesciunt. Iste sapiente explicabo doloremque ea dolores.
Laboriosam sint voluptates voluptatem harum. Velit nobis reiciendis laborum amet. Dicta rerum id vitae optio reprehenderit assumenda.
Blanditiis voluptate ex odio fugit nemo odit quia. Doloribus omnis ea possimus ut quis et. Quae atque cumque repudiandae deleniti. At quos natus unde consequuntur nisi incidunt accusamus dolores. Ea consequatur ut voluptas cum. In temporibus rerum cumque accusantium dicta soluta laborum id.
Eaque atque nulla laborum molestias fugit dignissimos iusto. Ut asperiores at saepe praesentium voluptates sed.
Magni ipsum dolor maxime assumenda. Ut voluptas nam dolores optio quam. Error iste qui non quam libero expedita sed.
Totam aspernatur corrupti eaque quo. Molestias voluptatibus adipisci impedit magni eum delectus quia.
Veritatis dolorem voluptas ut inventore ut. Ea sint dolor a reiciendis. Eius aperiam sint laboriosam nemo officiis porro qui.
Quae rerum mollitia laudantium voluptate fugit eos. Illum velit eum deleniti molestias error sed ut. Sint sed provident alias modi. Eius unde velit sequi. Nostrum accusamus omnis a nisi doloribus.