If you're at a firm that is toxic, then sure by all means get out. That said, we've got these threads that pop up now and then about how IB is horrible and you didn't find fulfillment or what not in it - I mean nobody forced you to be here. You're also on a how to get into investment banking website. That's like me going to a vegetarian restaurant and complaining that they don't have any steak.
IB is a grind, but it's also one of the highest paid jobs out of school, it can open a lot of doors, and it can be a solid career in its own right. I really think the days of VC-backed high paying tech jobs that were basically adult day care, I think those days are done with rising costs of capital. Those days did set unrealistic expectations though.
At the end of the day, you're likely in the top quartile or even top decile of income earners of your age group, you've got good benefits. If your expectation is that 1 year out of undergrad that you're going to be the next Ken Moelis or Michael Klein, then yes you are setting yourself up for disappointment. This industry is an apprenticeship and you're learning the ropes, if you want to stay, or you're building skills for something else, like moving to industry.
By all means call out firms that are toxic or if there are shady things going on, but some of the complaining about IB in general is getting a bit much. First world problems.
Stockholm syndrome
Have you ever done IB, bro? It’s that bad. Looking through your profile it doesn’t seem like you actually work in banking lmao
Completely disagree. IB is an easy job; it's definitely not as difficult as it should be for having 22yos make $150k+. We just get paid this much because the economics works out that way; nothing an analyst/associate does is inherently "worth" that much. I know you're in the grind right now as a 2nd year analyst, but try to keep perspective. Good luck!
This dude’s an industry plant #fed
Nor is any job except for some highly socially impactful jobs worth more than 100k. You get paid the market rate, wherever supply and demand meet. There is nothing privileged about knowing this and taking advantage of it.
Surprisingly bad take by someone in PE. On an hours adjusted basis the pay is really not great
IB is that bad, and the pay is not good. Working like a dog just to get a measly bonus.
Find the right group and IB isn’t bad at all - easier said than done of course. I will say, it seems like there’s far more complaining on the PE side of this forum… maybe that’s just my bias to support my decision to stick it out in IB. Love my job tho so not complaining.
Rly? How so?
Work in a space that’s already less sweaty, for seniors that don’t try to reinvent the wheel and on a team that’s appropriately staffed for our deal-flow. Admittedly, the stars have aligned and things could easily change if deal-flow outpaces staffing or people leave the team. I’m obviously an exception to the rule but even so I think lifestyle in IB overall has improved and will continue to do so as the generation shift takes place up top.
To my other comment, the PE threads seem to have more people complaining but maybe that’s cuz people are shocked that is the same or worse than banking. Based on my experience with friends that made the move… it usually seems worse.
LMFAO this guy definitely doesn’t actually work in IB
Yeah never understood this - it's by no means mandatory and if you don't like it you can stop. Don't understand not having a positive mindset about a lucrative position that you worked hard for? Annoying sometimes, for sure, but on the whole pretty positive?
It is good for comp if we all pretend to hate it though.
My coworker is always like: at least you’re not in the Congo, in Gaza Strip, etc. But you know what, who cares. You have no emotional gradient to those places/people.
You can only complain about what you know, and what you know is banking. Know your audience, complain to other bankers about banking, don’t complain to regular people.
Expecting people to Not Complain become someone, somewhere has it worse is boring and unrealistic.
Weak minded. Those things are meant to give you perspective. If you don’t do that then you’ll never be grateful. If your job is that bad then quit.
Bro, quit your job and pursue what you want to do. Stop being a bot / NPC.
“Stop being a bot” - guy who has been spamming the board nonstop for the past week
<3
Point taken but it is quite awful - there's a reason a vast majority of people who leave never regret it lol. And rule of thumb is a lot of jobs that pay a lot are also just not good jobs - people wouldn't work these jobs if the pay wasn't worth the abuse (excluding tech, but this holds true for law, finance, consulting, even certain strands of medicine)
All of medicine except radiology and derm, I quit surgery for biotech ER.
If you work at a brand name bank, you are in the top 1% of your income by age. Top 1% from age 24-35 is around 220k. I spend my money like a fkin moron so I won’t comment on net worth percentile.
I used to have bosses always (ironically) complain about the junior enlisted guys bitching and complaining in our unit. I forget who said it, Patton maybe, but it is the enlisted man's god-given right to bitch! And I think this extends to any over worked and underappreciated junior employee. We're all human. Things suck sometimes. Don't get your panties in a twist because someone wants to complain lol.
I honest do not mind the hours, I know I signed up, I coming from a really shit background appreciate this. However things I hate about banking - politics, kissing ass, poor management skills by seniors, seniors being stupid and not knowing what they want, poor mentorship/guide for new hires, working on things they aren’t necessary, just adding pages to a deck just because, people who make banking thier personality, “prestige mindset”
It's this simple: you don't like the hours? Quit. You don't like the people or your team? Change team. You don't like being abused or yelled at? Stand up for yourself. What are they going to do? Fire you? So what? This is just a job, not your life. If it's your life, stop complaining. The moment you stand up for yourself and draw a line in the sand is the moment people stop being assholes to you, in banking and in life.
So many clowns in this thread. I also think most are people who haven't worked the role.
A few facts:
This is so abnormal and so indicative of the role being beyond mentally difficult. I get many of you want to argue all hires are privileged kids who don't work hard, but if getting top marks in HS to get accepted into a top university and then getting top marks in a top university was actually that easy everyone would do it. It requires immense discipline and natural talent. Arguing the average kid stacking shelves or working a manual labor job works harder than the highschooler trying to get good enough grades for admission into an Ivy or equivalent school is so bogus. I'm sure there are edge cases where that's not true, but the average person just doesn't work 15 hour days 6 days a week and deal with the treatment seniors give IB analysts. The environment at many firms is straight up hostile and it's unlike any other role out there because of the leverage of money.
Look, most roles there are alternatives that pay similar, so if you treated people poorly they would go to another firm. If you run like a lawn care service and tried to force someone to work 15 hours a day 6 days a week and belittled them, they'd go to another company or start painting houses. My experience has been if you tried the shit MD's at banks do to a junior employees in a manual labor role, you without question would get knocked out. If you have ever had to manage employees in alternate walks of life you learn how fickle laborers are, however, in IB, kids are the most disciplined kids in the country so many would literally rather die or go to the hospital than tell a manager "no" or "I need to sleep because I haven't slept more than 3 hours for the last 7 days".
As much as I get bothered by the complainers, even worse are the boot lickers who are so delusional they think people should accept without grievance conditions of the industry. Arguing workers should either say, 'Please sir another" or leave a job entirely if they don't like it, just isn't how labor and management works. You can enjoy parts of your job and also acknowledge areas for improvement.
I think this forum helps many feel they aren't alone. Rather than the analogy its like going to a vegetarian restaurant and complaining they don't have steak, I would say it's like an addiction forum where people can find a community that can empathize with their struggles. Many people post the "complaining" posts because they feel they can't turn to anyone else because others don't get the level of treatment and the reasons someone would stay in a role that is so bad. When I was going through it, basically every person told me to quit because "it wasn't worth it". Ultimately, that became true, but when you are in it, all you can think about is quitting would make you a failure.
For those going through it, my advice is simple, if you go to the hospital or feel the need to medicate, pick a new job. If you hate it, but you can hang in there, set a deadline you will be out and make a decision. If you are a month in, say, "I'll make a decision if I quit next month" Then, if it's not so bad, "6 months" Then, realize once you get to a year or 2 years, you can jump ship and find something that is more fulfilling and less shitty.
I agree with everything you say except the "most disciplined kids in the country would rather die than say no to a manager". That's not being disciplined, that's being stupid, and not having any self-respect. Whoever is willing to end up in the hospital over a job (especially a job as meaningless as IB) has serious mental issues and priorities very messed up. No one in the world gives a fuck about what we're doing except a few couple of hundred 22-year-old kids living in Manhattan who don't know shit about life and think that working at GS is the equivalent of curing cancer. We're nothing more than glorified powerpointers with some skills at excel. Just milk the cow, collect your absurd paycheck and bonus, save as much as possible, don't give a fuck at what people think, and play the game for as long as you're willing to do it. At least that's what keeps me sane.
I agree it is a lack of perspective, but all 22 year old kids lack perspective, that's what being young is. Also, it's a lot to ask for someone to know how to respectfully set boundaries in their first job. I think most analysts that last in that industry learn to a degree how to set some boundaries, but it's a learning process and takes people time. It's really easy to get run over by an aggressive boss early in your career since you don't really have any evidence to the contrary. I think many IB analysts have imposter syndrome or are still learning the ropes, so they are in a constant state of insecurity and can't push back on a manager because that requires confidence.
People were getting hospitalized? Geeze…
I think this happens more often than people care to admit in high finance. As much as people want to say they are pro mental health, it’s still incredibly taboo to push back or say you need to recharge. As a result, people get pushed to breaking point and you get things that are always “unrelated” but it obviously isn’t and is stress related. People start having things like heart palpitations or migraines or dormant conditions emerge like IBS or something or they just get regular sick, but mixed with how run down they are it spirals and you get someone that like passed out in a park that had the flu.
The mix of lack of sleep, stress, and often extreme caffeination can cause people’s bodies to eventually cry uncle and they lock up in some way. It was one of my biggest complaints with the industry—if enough people are having issues like that, you likely have an institutional problem and need to reevaluate management practices.
As an analyst or associate, it’s important to come to the realization that your firm doesn’t care about you even if they act like they do. It’s your job to protect and advocate for yourself. In an ideal world, good management protects against mental breakdowns, but IB and PE are some of the worst managers that exist.
Does IB get easier as you climb the latter. Im aware that VPs and MDs work less hours but do they have high stress and is their job more difficult?
It does not… after 8 years in the IBD, I can say that at the VP level there is a complete different level of things that annoy you.
If you are good but not well regarded, you might be able to originate a deal as VP but then because of internal politics you will ultimately struggle with staffing or business selection will decide that fees are too small and it is better use of resources to spend them on pitching.
If you are not good, you will be automatically not well regarded and then you will struggle with juniors who would love to prove how stupid you are, and make your life difficult.
On the bright side, once you make to the MD, you will realise that it is like starting your career again as suddenly you discover how many levels of MDs there are, and how useless some of them are and how most of the thought process is actually outsourced. Unless you are actually a rare example of MD that knows what he does, and can keep useless MDs as only a team page addition, you can really manage your hours well.
Maybe if you are well liked, people pleaser type of the MD, you can make it work somehow. But then again, I worked for some of those both in American bank and European BB, and they tended to be a little bit psycho loving their job so much that they worked more than analysts, taking that as a badge of honour while they were actually super inefficient, and adamantly kept commenting on some minor formatting and redrafting/ refining. At one point, I actually came clean to such a MD, and explained that as Asso2 I cannot run his never ending mark-ups at 6am for 9am meetings and started to send him ppt. He took the point, and worried that I can complain, he started to make changes himself. Strangely, there was no adverse impact on my bonus.
All in all - if you want to somehow keep some level of sanity, the only solution is to find a competent banker that you can at least mirror partially, and at least admire for one thing, and then develop a broader bunch of mentors, and set some boundaries. At some point, you will realise that the MD is not working till 3am and waking up at 6am because he is psycho but because he probably dislikes other parts of his life more than his job or that he really loves the feel of being needed, or maybe just because he is psycho. What is more important is that it is his choice, and if you personally need to sleep 7hours to be productive for 11 hours, it is your responsibility to make it clear. If you do not, people will take advantage of you, and you will feel that everyone is psycho.
Do you really think there are banks that are not toxic? I would guess there might be a team or two that is ok but the whole bank? Feels quite like dreaming or just being naive
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