Dear Fellow Primates,
Ever since I was on Yahoo Finance last week I've had several other news organizations (and the BBC last year) come ask me about Wall Street hours, etc (I was on Huffington Post live earlier today and they brought up the death of Bank of America's intern Moritz Erhardt last summer).
It seem like the response from most of the bulge brackets (or at least Bank of America and Goldman) is to try and have some forced time off. In Goldman's case, this is an order that analysts can't spend Saturdays in the office. In Bank of America's case, this was that at least one weekend per month must be spent outside the office...
So my questions to the WSO community is this (I woudl prefer if you only respond if you work at one of these firms or know someone directly at one of these firms that has told you what it is like):
1. Are these programs helping reduce time in the office? Are other days longer as a result?
2. Are they being enforced?
3. Do you see other banks (other BBs, middle markets and boutiques) following this lead?
I'd like to get a better sense of what is actually going on since I seem to be getting asked this a lot and I don't want to mispeak. I know @"NorthSider" was pretty optimistic about the programs in an earlier thread while a bunch of other members saw it as more of a PR move with little real world implications.
Thanks for your help,
Patrick
I know CS also came out with a new policy. There are a few groups that enforce a 6pm Friday rule in which you have to let the group head know if you have to work past 6pm (staffer, and deal team are included in late working request). This is super easy to get around but it does offer the possibility of getting out early on Friday, and since it was put in place leaving that early is no longer frowned upon.
However, the reality is that if you have work that needs to get done, you have to stay to do it. The benefit is that you don't have to wait around on Fridays for comments late at night for a pitch that needs to be turned on Saturday because only live deals can get exception.
Hours are still not good (90+ easily every week).
Thanks for sharing - very interesting...so only live deals get exception to hold you in late on Friday? So you're saying that if an MD wants to keep you there on Friday night to work on an "important pitch" on Monday, he/she can't get around that?
Based on the current rule/idea/principle, no. There are definitely exceptions, however. If it happens to be a bakeoff situation for a large IPO and the pitch is on Monday, then yea they will be able to get around it.
I've also seen instances where this will happen. You're staffed on a live deal and will have to stay late on Friday/be there early on Saturday (forgot to mention that they try to forbid you from coming in before 12pm on Saturday as well). The MD/VP that you're on a pitch with knows that he can't ask you to stay late for his shitty $100mm IPO, but what he does know, is that you will be here late working on the live deal anyway.
So then the situation becomes "Hey, I know you will be here late working on MD's deal...can you also get started/turn some comments on xyz pitch since you will be here anyway".
Worked at a group that implemented a "blackout" policy, where you can't work between 8 p.m. Friday to noon Sunday. The policy stuck because a few MDs at our group were really adamant about making it stick. There were definitely a few sr guys who felt that it was dumb, but as long as the MDs/heads of our group enforced it - it almost always happened. Most analysts would work 1 Saturday every once in a while, and Fridays definitely did not always end at 8 p.m., but more times than not everyone was told to go home before dinner.
While it is extremely nice knowing you have two nights off (almost) every week, it did not make weeks shorter. Hours were consistently still 85-90+ and Sunday nights were really bad. I think overall the "blackout" policy helped a lot with morale, but it's not to say that you're really working less.
Oh and should add that if an MD wants to keep you there during the blackout period, staffer needed to be notified as well as head of our group. Permission was usually not granted to do so, unless there was a very pertinent reason
to answer your 3 questions for g.s (LDN office):
1- weeks are the same, usually sunday are longer if you have weekend work as concentrated on 1 day. but the rule is forcing MDs / VPs to decrease the amount of unnecessary work in pitch etc.
2- yes very much enforced. to get saturday work approval, the MD needs to email the Partner of the team. it is usually denied unless you have a big RFP on Monday or a live situation (board meeting on sunday etc.). If you decide to come to the office on saturday without telling anyone, it automatically alerts the staffer / the partner that you are logged in.
3- dont know, i think JPM / CS / BAML are trying too
Thanks you as well for the inside scoop...anyone else? To me this is sounding like a nice change of pace...while it's still brutal hours and makes Sunday a bit worse, you at least get out of the office for some sanity once a week.
Wasn't BAMLs policy that they get one weekend off a month but are less strict about Saturdays?
Thanks, Patrick
Disclaimer: I don't work at any bank or anywhere at the moment.
I would imagine the decreasing time in the office is just that. Time in the office. Sure they might be forcing time off however it will soon morph into just working not in the office in order to look like they give a shit about the junior people and still get most of the work done, albeit with less efficiency. Junior bankers make way to much money for them to be sitting idle for 104 days a year.
Then why pipe up on a topic of which you confess to have no knowledge?
the real good thing about this is predictability in your life
This is huge.
The analysts met with MDs and the issue that arose was that all the stuff was being assigned at the end of the day. Many analysts in the morning are relatively free, but get swamped later at night. So MDs must assign work in the morning, which allows analysts to have lives after work and more importantly get some much needed rest. Also MDs must give reasonable amount of time to complete tasks. Before they would just say "We need it tommorow" and in reality they wouldn't. The weekends are being shut down pretty much and working from home is acceptable if needed. There was also concern over unnecessary tasks being assigned that take too much time. Should be interesting to see what happens, but I feel banking culture will get better, but pay will decline as well. Too be honest, I am okay with that.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but @TeddyTheBear, what makes you feel that pay will decline as well? It certainly makes sense that less hours = less pay overall, but I'm wondering what you think will specifically drive the change.
I think something big coming out of these plans (disclaimer: from an outsider's perspective) is that the predictability of hours will increase, even if the hours worked do not decrease. Just an observation.
Decreasing the salary / bonus of each analyst frees up room in the hiring budget. That way more analysts can be hired and the work is spread out across more bodies, which in turn decreases overall hours. That's the theory at least.
BAML is four weekend days off per month--heard it's up to the group decide how they are allocated. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303393804579312503858867722
GS analyst weighing in here: I'm a huge fan of the policy and have actually seen a marked shift in the way senior people approach weekends. While the rule may not be 100% enforced, its the spirit of the rule that's really the game changer. Senior folks are at least cognizant about assigning work on the weekends. These are the same MDs and VPs who used to promise client service bullshit work to clients on a Monday, and because of this rule they now promise it by "mid-week". It also forces them to plan their work week out a little more, instead of dumping a whatever they had on their plate Friday afternoon onto the lap of their subordinates. The subtle mind-shift does absolute wonders in terms of quality of junior monkey life, that no arbitrary blackout rule could accomplish on its own.
Also not bringing your blackberry out on friday/saturday nights is huge,puts you in way better state of mind. The one downside (if you want to call it that...) is that my Friday nights have become exponentially more debaucherous with no threat of having to wake up early for work the next morning.
If your working hours decrease - so is your bonus. If your bosses need a new firm policy to tell them to care about juniors - not a good sign. This has been beaten to death and ppl are silly. All the banks are promising higher ROE - you get that by incvreasing producitivity and reducing headcount.
Your book might be due "mid-week" but i thin a draft would be due by Monday
Yeah but that is still way better - that means you're putting in a half day Sunday. If a book needs to go to the client Monday, you're probably working Friday night, turning comments Saturday, and on a call at 8am Sunday morning so your MD can weigh in for 20 minutes before he goes to watch his kid's soccer game. Then once he blows up the book you're in the office all day Sunday anyway
I read in a New Yorker article that as part of Goldman's same work/life balance initiative (freeing up weekends), that "all analysts, on average, should be working no more than seventy to seventy-five hours a week." This is obviously more difficult to enforce...but wondering if any GS employees can comment on the average hours cap. Is it anywhere near reality? Particularly interested in associate insights. Thanks
I'm interested in this as well. Also is this new policy across regions or just NYC? I think my bank is now one of the few that don't have a policy like this... I might start a riot!
worth the extra 10-20k off your bonus ?
Clearly you have no idea what analyst life in banking is like. 1) They aren't lowering bonuses by 10-20k, that's stupid. 2) When you're working the hours, you get to a point where you would gladly sacrifice 10k pre-tax for an additional 500 hours of your life back. If you don't think your marginal free time after already putting in 80 hours a week is worth more than $20/hour, then you're an idiot. Feel free to reply if you need me to walk you through that math.
I don't think comp will go down for bankers. Banking just has competition. Think of how many people from top schools (the main source of bank recruiting) now have the option to go into tech, work good hours and make serious comp. If some kid has a choice between Google/Facebook/Twitter, making $100K or more and having a life or Goldman, being a slave and making the same or maybe a little more, what do you think kids are choosing?
Banking has real competition and it needs to do something to compete. They could always wise up and recruit kids from lower ranked schools and continue to work them to death, but the industry can't think like that.
The real issue is that banking, like any client driven business, is at the mercy of the client. Hence the lack of predictability. There has always been a path in banking for those seeking better hours and more predictability. It is called Capital Markets.
What's wrong with lower ranked schools? As far as I can tell, there are plenty of low targets, semi targets and non targets at all the top Wall Street firms. Banking is an intellectually simple job....
Not trying to be rude, genuinely curious about why you said such a thing. Is it because all the firms try to impress their clients with their Ivy League recruits or something?
Banks recruit from top schools. I agree that banking isn't rocket science, but that is how it is. While semi-targets and non-targets do break into investment banking, it is more the exception than the rule. Probably more so because HR is lazy and it is easy to recruit from Harvard/Yale/Wharton/etc.
I wouldn't characterize it as intellectually simple. At the analyst level the brunt of the abuse will come from mind numbing work, but to say that this stuff can't be confusing or intellectually challenging isn't accurate either.
The problem is that investment banks can withstand a very significant decline in applicant quality before it actually starts to negatively affect business in any material way. Sure the best and brightest may not be going to investment banks the way they did in 2006 but the sad fact is that the banking machine doesn't require the best and brightest. Banks are still rejecting huge numbers of kids who can competently perform junior banker tasks - they are far from having to settle for inadequate talent.
Usually people earning $100k+ at tech firms are former bankers/consultants - not the people getting into tech firms straight out of undergrad (from what I have seen). The only people earning $100k+ out of undergrad are engineers at Google/FB etc (from what I have seen) which requires a different skill set altogether. Also not everyone is interested in tech...
Comp is not going down by 10-20k but it is becoming harder to make associate at Goldman ... (also GS analysts have year to year contracts for a reason ... its a numbers game) - Goldman is probably the epitome of a place where they want people to show dedication and drive.
For those of you that are so curious, I am wondering why? (Not trying to be rude here). Is it because you want the goldman brand and are afraid of the culture and think this somehow changes it? I was with a goldman partner last week who said that senior people (md / partners) are quite focused on this. But at the same time, there is no deviation from the same focus on results, etc. As i've said before, i think this just makes people be more considerate of other people's time which is huge for an analyst but you probably should avoid those people to begin with.
Anyhoo, I am not saying go work at a place that ruins your life. Predictability is huge (and you get that anyway as you get more senior) but i wouldn't put such a huge premium on it and delude yourself into thinking banking is easy now.
There are dbags everywehre (clients and bosses and coworkers) and there are nice poeple everywhere. My advice is to go to a group that is nice and reasonable but also work your ass off when needed and not always rely on work/life balance. Put in 2-3 years, go to buyside, or stay and get promoted and do the same with your analysts and you'll do fine.
The purpose of this policy is to increase retention. Banks are frustrated by the fact that they serve as training grounds for other roles (PE, HF, etc.) and can't retain their star employees. Banks may very well lower pay for analysts, but that is going to come at a cost to retention, the very metric they are trying to improve. Nobody knows where things are going to settle once these policies become a core part of the culture at all the banks.
they should increase associate pay for stay-on analysts..
Citi is reportedly jumping on the bandwagon: http://dealbreaker.com/2014/01/citigroup-jumps-on-the-protected-weekend-bandwagon/
What's interesting is the part about mandatory vacation utilization. I think Citi is the only bank whose policy includes this stipulation.
Read the first handful of comments and skipped down to add my own, so excuse if this repeats anything above.
Hours-wise, it doesn't cut down your overall weekly number by anything noticeable (if at all). The only upside is the predictability. If I'm getting slammed, I damn sure want to know that I can get that Friday night off to grab a late dinner with a girl, friends, family, etc. and sleep a little bit more on Saturday. I don't care if it's 90 weekly, but if I know I'm doing 9-midnight daily, a couple remote Saturday, and 12 on Sunday, cool, I just got to own a bit more of my life.
In all honesty, I think that's the thing that makes the analyst lifestyle so brutal (and the guys so jaded): the fact that you have zero control. Being an absolute bitch to the seniors in your group, to the staffer, and to the demands of inept clients really rots at your core as a man. Alleviate that (as some/most of these policies make a laudable effort of doing), and you've made at least me a happier fellow.
The day I read the Goldman Sachs' article on weekend policy I knew this would be the end of an era. Eventually the decrease in hours will lead to a decrease in pay. In the long-run I'm unsure how even Goldman will be able to compete with Google because pay will be comparable, yet Google has way more perks.
as a banker you have the possibility of way more monery down t5he road an engineer wil max out at 200k
I spoke to a friend at a bank without this policy. He said that the bank is now using this as a competitive advantage. They are telling clients that they can produce work faster than competitors because they don't have mandatory protected weekends.
Yikes.
lol i can definitely imagine this.
Distinctio aut illo non recusandae fuga. Eos blanditiis dolores ut est facere. Aut ut quas nostrum incidunt ut. A adipisci voluptatem doloribus labore.
Dicta minima corrupti ut minus est et sit. Saepe maxime velit dolorem nisi sed. Quae dolore nemo vitae consequuntur illum molestias impedit.
Quasi ipsum magni nihil. Ut fuga vero doloremque. Quaerat pariatur ullam nobis aut. Ipsum minus cupiditate ducimus esse velit.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
At tempora nobis ad. Perferendis nihil cupiditate consequatur officiis earum voluptas. Ipsam dolores ea corrupti. Sint explicabo voluptas vel. Veritatis ut ab corrupti optio tempore.
Aut voluptatibus aspernatur rerum ipsa magnam. Id earum saepe numquam molestiae sed praesentium. Et est rerum dolorum perferendis velit quo quis.