Investment Banking Seniors are Terrible Managers
This has been discussed in some capacity, but need to rant.
If a MD/Director was not clear on an ask, the analyst/assoc asks the VP for clarification, and the VP does not know / cannot provide relevant guidance, why in the hell does the junior team need to spend 8+ hours iterating on an unclear ask, only to have the MD rip it apart and say it’s not what he wanted, and the junior team spend another 8+ hours iterating again? It would take the VP 5 minutes to ask the question, and would take the director/MD 5 minutes to think of an answer and respond. Are people’s egos in the industry really that big that it’s beneath them to spend an extra few minutes ironing out key issues upfront?
I’m convinced that if higher ups had a shred of managerial competence and issues were dealt with upfront, juniors would only need to work 60 hours/week rather than 80-100+. In literally ANY other industry, this type of behavior and lack of communication would not be tolerated. What is going on?
Seems like if something inconveniences seniors by 1% or makes their lives slightly more difficult, they have no problem grinding the juniors an extra 10-20 hours per week to spare themselves. But even that argument doesn’t hold - if the seniors communicated issues and were clear upfront they’d need to spend less time on the back end iterating and reviewing.
Have other people experienced this frustration? I’ve been here for 3+ years and as I sit in on more meetings with the seniors I find it boggling how hard juniors get abused and how preventable it is with some basic communication skills that are quite frankly a requirement in literally any other profession.
VPs need to be trained to think things through, operate independently and come up with their own ideas as well.
Sometimes they get it wrong too and it causes extra work, but it's all part of their development. There's also nothing stopping an analyst or associate from putting a shell together and sending it around for feedback ahead of starting if you're trying to cut down on iterations.
You're correct though, that the system is designed to make things efficient for the people at the top. NOT the analysts. If you weren't iterating on one thing, you'd just be added to another even lower probability pitch.
Learning to read exec emails is a learned skill. Odds are they’re typing it on an email with autocorrect and getting wrong words here and there (most of my posts are a good example). As you gain experience there will be one or two words that will indicate what they want and if you are aware of who they’re meeting with then you’ll likely be somewhat aware of what is being discussed. Never be afraid to ask someone for help, especially with haphazard emails from a stressed out MD whose sack is hanging on a deal. Just remember one thing, don’t write executive emails when you’re not one. They hate that shit. If you get to fill their shoes one day remember that good communication is critical.
The idea we need to manage up is ridiculous. No..you manage down effectively like a real manager, so make me do your job. It's just a saying for seniors to push everything down, expect everything to be perfect without them having to lead or manage anything.
I was in the military before and mindset did not exist. It was of course good to proactively update seniors about timelines and progress but it wasn't your job to "manage up" your commander.
100% correct and it’s easy to see why so many ex-military people get frustrated with this profession and leave.
There are stories of navy SEALS not sleeping on kayaks for 7 days straight, hallucinating, etc and making it out to the other side, and then quitting this job within a year because they can’t take the abuse/lack of leadership and communication.
I never even served. The top-down flow of orders just seems objectively more logical and efficient. Maybe we’d be better off with mandatory service.
This is a key difference between military life and civilian life. Huge difference between the military chain of command, where you're taught instant obedience and following orders can be a life or death matter vs. a collaborative environment where everyone is trying to pitch in where they can to get the project over the finish line.
Those who struggle to adapt when they leave the military will find their success to be much more limited.
You really believe banking is a collaborative environment?
Feel like it would be better if civilian life adapted more to military chain of command.
My takeaway from your comparison is that when the stakes are higher, you adopt the best system and the best system is chain of command.
When the stakes are lower, you can afford to have inefficient systems like the free-for-all that IB can sometimes be. That just makes it acceptable, not good.
Congrats on Coast Guard
If a VP is weak, personally I try to work around them as much as I can in that I’ll try to communicate directly with the Director / MD on asks to avoid wasting time. Still need to finesse the VP a bit and keep them in the loop on changes, occasionally buy into their ideas or ask some questions on direction of specific outputs to keep them involved. Ultimately as a senior associate, getting face time with MDs and having them see my work / ideas has helped build my rep in my group and get good performance ratings. I do appreciate good VPs who can manage MD/client expectations and drive admin work on deals and not bog me down with BS work.
You folks crack me up
My 6 year old daughter asked me for three candies. I gave her one - she was happy and I went back to the golf simulator. Just like managing junior bankers.
I never made this association before that the reason MDs always have rotten children is because they're bad leaders. Fantastic point.
So true. An MD wont go 5 minutes out of his way to save you 20 hours. Also, no one is allowed to have opinions or be confident if they aren't an MD. The MDs ego is so big that everyone else has to kill their own to accommodate.
Why did you call it ‘iterating’ instead of working
Because “iterating” implies doing things repetitively. Dumbass
Not it doesn’t. It implies back and forth. Junior team iterates with senior team. I don’t care, it was just weird is all.
And maybe a little bit of a tell . . OP is an associate, not an analyst, and could be a little more thoughtful than just getting frustrated with VP. Step up and be the VP, nobody will stop you. And maybe someone that lazy-minded also throws around banker words like “iterate” without thinking. I dunno.
When talking to a lot of IB MDs and their VPs, I have noticed they have very weak processes and management skill sets. This is because they have only managed very expensive employees who do not require extensive process to be built.
Now, just because they can get away without good process, it doesn't mean there should not be any...lol.
I noticed the same thing with a lot of SaaS/tech founders where average salary is quite high at the co.
Even basic things like project management tools are not used extensively in IB and PE, which is very 101 best practices for any co.
Part of the problem in IB specifically is the average senior is literally old AF. They all struggle with software and are not going to implement something like Asana lol
Project management software? I don’t use a computer at home or in the office.
Most senior bankers are terrible managers for two reasons. The process for progression/promotion does not incentivize good resource or process mgmt at any level except maybe senior associate/junior vp or group head. Also, most junior bankers (and consultants) are very intelligent people who are scared of asking questions of senior bankers, those that can do so intelligently often are top bucket/more highly viewed within the group for doing so.
Ok so I will stop trolling and try to add something useful to the conversation.
You are absolutely right. Management skills aren’t really valued in investment banking (note, I’m not saying they are not important as you will read below). Typically the skills of a rainmaker who has the confidence / arrogance to advise clients well and deliver for them and not the skills of a good manager, and ultimately we value delivery for clients and revenue over anything else.
This having been said, I would encourage people to turn this reality on its head. Management in investment banking is and always will be weak. How do you use this to your advantage? A few examples from my career below; I’m not saying these are prescriptive and you need to adapt to your own circumstances.
When I was an analyst, there was one group head who was both a major rainmaker and an asshole of spectacular proportions. There was the other group head who was a great guy. Everyone wanted to work for the latter whereas no one (even Directors / VPs) could work for the former. I realised that the asshole had very specific pathologies that could be managed around (he wanted everything five minutes from when he asked but didn’t care about the numbers as long as they were directionally ok and the client didn’t complain). I found myself directly working for him a lot because others couldn’t and got a ton of exposure (was presenting valuation to public company Boards etc). I got screamed a lot and eventually quit but I got what I wanted out of it.
As an associate, I was in a team of very nice, very capable senior bankers but who were all totally detached from reality (spent their whole summers in the Hamptons and St Tropez and shit like that). Wound up managing the analyst pool for them because they were so removed and built a lot of loyalty from below and support from above.
As a VP, I took responsibility for analyst recruiting so by the time and helped bring in a lot of the junior talent around the bank so by the time the hard Director years set in, I had supportive people in a lot of places (pitch with the LA office? girl I hired is now the associate working on it etc) that made a lot of difference.
As a non group head MD, the loyalty I engendered from people working for me made sure that I had the political leverage to become group head
As a group head, I manage a bunch of MDs that are all very good bankers but couldn’t manage a lemonade stand. The fact that the trains always run on time, we have the top juniors in the bank, low turnover, people are well paid means it’s a very stable place for people and clients. Of course, I have to make it rain but being a capable group head def adds 1mm+ a year to comp annually.
The takeaways are that since it is what it is, learning to work the system can be a superpower. You can learn a lot from bad managers as long as they are good bankers, being a good manager can take you very far when everyone else is shit.
watch your semi colon use please. otherwise, decent post
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