Is the jump from Associate to VP at a BB huge?
Question - Is there a huge change of responsibilities at a BB M&A shop from a senior associate to a VP? What are the added responsibilities? How about from a MM bank to a BB?
Am in the midst of applying/interviewing and most banks (BB) are trying to discount my past experience (Mid market), and I'm wondering if I should be okay to take a senior associate role or if i should push for a VP Role.
My key consideration is whether the firm expects too much of me as a VP and I can't deliver. I'm very confident of delivering as a senior associate given that I have guided interns/analysts/associates and held the pen on models/presented to board members etc.
Background > ~8 years of finance experience, currently a junior VP sector coverage 1 yr in current role (no one under me, but I work with juniors in M&A/ECM), past 3/4 yrs in M&A, then the first 2/3 years doing debt focused products breaking into finance. Hours and WLB are great where I am (50 hours weekly, sometimes it goes to 80 but rarely), but i've always been in mid market firms so am thinking of getting the BB name on my CV. Money isn't BB levels but pay per hour is definitely good enough.
Also happy to hear from more senior bankers about whether it's worth it to work as a VP in their early 30s and where people usually go from here.
Happy holidays everyone. Thanks for the advice.
edit: to be clear, i'm asking about GS/MS/JPM, and have worked across DB/Greenhill and some other EBs who were buy/sellside in some of my past M&A transactions, so i have put in ~100 hour weeks as an associate (at a MM bank). At my current bank, we're also regularly competing with BBs and top tier financial sponsors (KKR etc.)
If you were a great associate you’ll probably be fine as a VP. Great associate don’t necessarily make great VPs but they do make passable VPs at the minimum.
if you were a shit associate who hid and never did any work then you’ll be found out.
Considering BBs give less responsibility per person in general, you should likely be fine. The bigger issue I’d be concerned with is culture. If you are in a role with good hours and people you like, in addition to good pay per hour, you can probably rise the ranks, make more than enough money, and be happy. If you go to the Bb, there is a real chance you will likely be with toxic people who work insane hours, and there is also more variability regarding career progression. I would say just consider the risk, because you could be moving up the food chain, or you could be leaving a comfortable high paying job for a role where you end up miserable, and wanting to leave within a year or two, and really kicking yourself for leaving the seat you have now…
Thanks for the perspective.
You're right, the place i'm at now is great - i'm learning deeper about the sector, hours are not that intense, MD has told me he's lined me up for VP (think i won't be fired for the next 2/3 years), we have a decent pipeline.
Which is why i'm hoping existing or past VPs can chime in on whether i'm dumb to even consider this just to get the BB name on my CV lol. And for some additional context, yes I have been asked to interview with top BBs (i.e. GS, JPM, MS), lower tier BBs (Citi, Barclays, UBS etc.) and other boutiques whom have ex-BB MDs
It sounds like you don’t have much leverage so you probably need to take the sr a role although you’re a vp now. Not totally ideal but people will understand if you leave. I’d have a frank convo about room and timeline to progress etc. What wouldn’t be great is if you move and it doesn’t work out and leave finance, as then you leave with a lower title and banks are all a bit of a muchness anyway for most people outside of finance, except for GS and maybe JPM
I’m currently an associate but was considering a similar move (MM -> EB) and it sounds like my current group is a similar experience to yours (hours, culture, pay per hour, etc).
Spoke to a few different people about the move (some of which had left the group I was considering joining). I ultimately decided to stay put. It’s a different analysis as a junior associate given I have more runway… but in any case when people heard my experience (e.g., great hours for the pay) they didn’t really understand why I was looking to make the move. Most didn’t view the upgrade in name brand worth the trade off for hours and sacrifice in culture. Sure, I’d probably be working on marginally higher quality mandates and get marginally more money but my hours would 100% take a hit and I’d have a much less clear path to promotion. The key advice I got was to also factor in the cost of having to rebuild your reputation somewhere new. In my current seat, not only is it good pay per hour, but I have a very strong reputation and therefore a clear path to promotion and seniors that will hopefully vouch for me should shit hit the fan. That reputation opportunity cost is higher than you may think and there are inherent perks of having a strong reputation in your current seat. Things like taking vacation when you want because people will cover for you, working when you want because people trust you to get the task done or occasionally leaving early for dinner plans without worry that it looks bad but also more serious stuff like trust and opportunity to advance and work on important mandates / projects.
I think you should always have your ear to the street for whatever opportunities are out there and be closely evaluating how your group is continuing to perform, but I think the idea of climbing the ladder at one spot has been lost on the newer generations. If you’re in the right seat, I think it’s a good move. Also think there’s nothing wrong with staying humble and avoiding the prestige trap of the name brand… not that that’s what this is about but that can certainly get people to give up a good thing.
As someone who always lacked a recognizable name on my resume and had a serious hunger to get a real name on the CV, now that I do have it I can confidently say it is not worth sacrificing the good life for, assuming you don't have ulterior motives.
If you want to be a banking lifer stay the course. If you want to exit to industry and have a network of GS alum then maybe it's worth it. If for marginally (20%) more dollars at the cost of your weekends and hair, the business card isn't worth it.
Hey, this is the dilemma I’m facing. Currently have a few offers to places like BofA and JPM in NY. I am coming from business school and have no recognizable names on my resume. However, I’m worried about the poor culture and brutal hours with these teams. I also have an offer to WF in Charlotte, who most here would consider “trash”, but both the junior and senior bankers there are really cool and chill, and they have a more manageable wlb. Is it worth the sacrifice to grind out a few years in a top group like JPM HC? Or is it better to take the job I think I can last much longer in but will maybe learn less and have worse exit opps? (I have no career goals, so would probably stick around WF for a while. Would jump from a better group here in a few years to idk what).
Earn your stripes at a top bank. My advice was for someone in a comfortable seat looking for greener grass. If you don't want a top seat let someone who will appreciate the opportunity have it.
Much older than my title - but going from MM 50 hours to BB M&A - you should really be more like associate 2.
- Very limited (really means no) public market exposure like you’ll get clobbered by fairness committee or complex situations
- Not sure what your definition of BB is but Citi / BofA type BB M&A hours are brutal at even director level so it’ll be a reckoning
- You’ll work across many coverage groups with crazy deadlines with basically no direction and juniors always churning
If you want the public market M&A exposure / brand name / maybe pay - go for it. But you’ll be a sitting duck as a VP so take a step or two back (and it’ll still be very challenging).
if it’s one of those BBs MM group where they want you to do sponsor M&A (think JPM and Citi both are actively building out) - above doesn’t apply. Hours will still suck.
Can I ask you a follow up question? I came from ~3-4yrs in DCM at a BB (all investment grade issuance, no HY/Loans) and moved internally to a coverage seat as an Aso2 in February. I have received good feedback so far and I have built healthy relationships on the team but I am still somewhat green with respect to experience.
I understand debt quite well due to my prior DCM role, and equity does not seem too complex to pick up. My worry is that I have not done much in M&A. I have not worked on an M&A deal, and while I am savvy in excel and can figure out backups I see for the first time quite well, I worry that I lack the intuition on the M&A front from not having ever held pen on a model or done all that much illustrative math. Whether that be a Merger of Equals, a RMT, or even LBO, to name a few examples.
What would you do in my shoes to position well for a VP promo and, using your words, not to be a “sitting duck” if/when I make VP.
Thanks for the reply, it's very helpful, and will appreciate it if you can share main differences of responsibilities between VP and Assoc.
Added some context - had worked 100+ hour weeks previously and across/with DB/Greenhill/JPM etc., have some public markets experience (i.e. sell side for a consortium of shareholders for a public company, thereby triggering a MGO), IFA (shit work but whatever to "build client relationships")
Im of the mindset never take a step back. Keep interviewing till you get a BB at the VP level
Thanks for the replies guys but will appreciate more data points.
Have scheduled meetings with BB MDs (JPM/GS/MS etc.)
A CV premium doesn’t pay any bills…
As someone at a “highly regarded” BB… with all due respect I don’t know what you’re thinking. If your hours are good, you’re getting paid handsomely, and you’re well-regarded by your team and on a promotion pipeline, why are you looking to leave? The only thing I can think of is deal exposure / wanting to work on larger deals… if it’s something like prestige, CV premium, etc, do NOT do it.
The BBs probably don’t even pay materially more than the MMs these days.
Thanks for the perspective. I've been less keen upon seeing most of the replies.
Yes, the main reason is prestige and CV premium, pay is secondary.
I was thinking long term, and that a BB name on my CV will give more career longevity and options in the future.
Perhaps i'm a bit jaded by being lowballed by Headhunters and PE firms, and seeing first hand how much of a prestige whore most firms are in my experience. And I'm not getting paid "handsomely" (not BB levels), but am in a decent above average position.
What did you end up doing?
Update for all - I actually talked to the MD, head of IBD (for that region) for the interview.
No technicals, but basically he grilled me about how i'll formulate a coverage plan, whom are the clients i'm currently working with now and I can bring in, and then we talked about where I saw opportunities in the market and how i'll react to various market situations.
Overall, I think I did pretty well for those questions, but when it came to the pipeline expectations, he was very upfront that he expects the new hire to have a strong pipeline within a year or so, to which i don't think i reacted very well and told him that he has to temper his expectations, given that I've seen VPs crash and burn within a year with the burden of origination, and it's very tough to win a bake off against 55+ year old MDs as a 30s VP.
Yup, that was it. I was very keen on the role and trying to originate, but i'm not willing to take the burden of origination and get fired within a year for a lack of pipeline vs my current job.
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