Ivey "Fall Off" Explained
There’s been a lot of discourse on Ivey falling off so I wanted to take the time to flesh out why people believe this. Long post as I am mainly writing this for kids who are deciding between Ivey and elsewhere.
Historically, Ivey was prestigious for a couple reasons. Extremely old business school, alumni in powerful places and recruitment took place in a way that benefited those who attended the program. In recent years, Ivey’s placement of its graduates in powerful places has dramatically declined per capita.
The program used to be about 200-300 students, and was this size for decades. During this period, pretty much all the graduates would end up in banking or consulting. With the top 30-50 heading out for the US at GS, drexel, etc. The remainder would go to the other service firms in Canada. The true median outcome was essentially an IBD role at big 5 or consulting at big 4. They expanded to be around 500 students for the 2010s. Into the 2020s however, the program has 770 students per graduating class.
Ivey Women in Asset Management:
The Canadian finance scene is extremely small (finance in this case being investing and banking roles). There’s a very finite amount of seats available in these roles. Ivey launched this program to give women a chance at a role in finance through a placement system at the top firms. They place about 70 students a year onto Bay Street in these roles. When I say place, I mean literally match them to a company, there is no standard interviewing or technicals. Due to the fact that 70 of these placements are given to these women, there are substantially less seats available for a free market competition. Firms do not want all their hiring to be out of ivey so many of the firms that ivey grads would have great chances at, no longer exist.
Recruitment:
Finance roles recruit you in your second semester of second year. You are not in ivey. You are in fact stressing about school to maintain your 80% average to get into Ivey next year. This reduces your time to commit to recruiting. Ivey used to be great as on campus recruiting happened in HBA1 and so you just had to focus on school, show up at ivey in hba1 and get your IB/consulting offer. This is not the case. You need to work on doing this by yourself or through clubs.
Recruitment at Canadian firms is generally shifting toward a quota basis for DEI. If you take a glance at any intern class it’ll be about half. This also substantially reduces your chances.
Ivey used to be a heavy hitter in the NYC/CA scene. Older ivey alum would echo the notion that 30+ people would heat out to the US per year. This number is more like 8-10 now. Which results in all the people who self select out of the toronto recruit to now be in it. It is substantially easier to get a finance role in nyc than toronto. More seats per applicant and a lot more self selection to other lucrative fields that do not exist here.
Outdated model:
Ivey does not allow students to take a semester off to work. It is an entire year off or nothing (a year which you need to pay for). Every other business school will let you take a semester off for an off cycle. Recruitment has gotten brutal with how every business school lets you do off cycle internships to break in. This is not possible at Ivey. This is why finance was historically dominated by ivey but now that off cycles exist for other schools to pad their resume while the AEO kid is focused on not losing AEO, it becomes way harder to get those same jobs.
Clubs:
WIC, WCM and IPC are the clubs that generally result in a placement on Bay Street. Each club has like 20-40 students. However these 3 clubs overlap members like crazy. So there really isn’t much help to go around for the non members. Queens commerce has rules around overlap in these clubs.
Nepotism:
Obviously this is to exist like anywhere else. I’m flagging it because Ivey has the most ridiculous set of students from insane parental backgrounds. The kids use this to get great roles, which is fine, use the hand you were dealt. I am pointing this out however because Iveys recruiting and placement stats are very very skewed as the kids who get those roles from their backgrounds would otherwise get them at any other school too. This was not because they attended Ivey.
Price:
Most expensive program in Canada.
Having said all this, these reasons all dramatically skew Ivey’s ability to place hardworking “normal” kids into finance and consulting. If you come from a working class background and think it is a meritocracy, that you can get it done, you likely cannot. There are exceptions of course. The general theme however is that these factors take up a lot of the slots that ivey gets in recruiting. I’ve firsthand seen a lot of my brilliant peers strike out in recruiting and settle for non service based corporate jobs. Don’t get me wrong nothings wrong with that, it’s just that it’s clear a decade ago these people would not struggle with recruiting at all.
Ivey is still a phenomenal school. You can’t go wrong with attending, this is just to caution your decision making as it is not the platform it used to be and public perception has not caught up.
If I missed anything or you have something to add feel free!
If staying in Canada would deffo just consider going to QComm over Ivey due to the above reasons
How would you compare QComm and a target/semi-target like Northwestern (as an international student for both)? Want to get the best ROI (I don't mind the QComm to M7 path avoiding salary differential)
Bro definitely go to Northwestern lmao
The nepotism point is worth being more specific on. Big 5 placements for non-diversity Ivey students are entirely relationship-driven — parent is a client, family friend at the firm, someone already with a foot in the door. The globals are a bit more of an actual meritocracy. But if your family has zero industry ties? You’re realistically competing for fewer than five seats across all of Bay Street as an Ivey student. That’s just the reality of it.
I think 5 seats is extreme, I know several people from semi/non target programs that made into Big 5 without any connections to the industry. Nepotism exists but not all seats are filled through nepo connections
Nepotism is ~1-2% of seats. Most people bring it up to justify their irrational favouritism or DEI
Theres also the point that Ivey is seriously lacking in quality of education because of the 2+2 model. Basic concepts that would be taught at other business schools like Queens are taught in the third and fourth year at Ivey. I know people select schools for more than just the quality of education but it is something that should be considered as well.
At some point this will turn into a hate thread on DEI. Just to be clear only following candidates are considered DEI by Canadian banks:
Women (all colors), Black / Indigenous men, LGBTQ+
Asian / Brown / Arab men are not part of any DEI scheme.
All of the recruiting for top roles is done before Ivey even starts. I don’t even know what the point of the program is.
You have kids pulling their hair out trying to maintain their grades throught first and second year only to get cucked in recruiting because the slots are already gone.
Canadian finance landscape is nothing but handouts for women. Yes, women mostly white though. Out of 50% seats earmarked for DEI, 40%+ are allocated to them.
These handouts continue through their careers in the form of preferential staffings, lower workloads, incremental DEI bonuses, protection from lay offs because Daddy MD’s DEI KPI need to be maintained for his 7 figure bonus. All this while Daddy MD pretends to be sponsor of corporate Beckies while sleeping with at least one of them under the disguise of mentorship. Both parties are happy with outcome though till the day Becky realizes it is no longer worth it and now all of a sudden she is a victim and was groomed. MD does this while having a accomplished wife and teenage kids
this website is full of idiots. the cream rises to the top. learn how to compete for fks sake. everyone on wso is trying to find ways to rationalize their own mediocrity. life isn’t fair. get better, do better. expect nothing and you’re more likely get far. the most coveted seats go to those who are the most hungry. you can’t fake or DEI your way into the best seat. there’s a literal energy you radiate that’s undeniable. someone “undeniable” took your seat. get better
I never said that the cream no longer rises to the top. My entire point is that Ivey does much worse now on a PER CAPITA basis.
P72 pipeline still going, Ivey goated
Pretty sure even kids from Waterloo place like 3-4 kids there every cycle
Thought I would give the semi target co-op perspective on this as someone who was fortunate enough to successfully recruit:
If you (1) have no connections to the industry or (2) aren’t sure you want to be hyper focused on finance from day 1 - I would strongly recommend going a school with a 5 year co-op program (wlu/uw).
A 5 year program gives you a full extra year to recruit for your penultimate summer. Do not underestimate how much more you will know after 3 years of recruiting/being in a finance environment compared to 2. This is especially true if you don’t get into a finance club first year.
On the above: given that I had no connections, and wasn’t hyper focused, I was unemployed for my first summer, just like many of my peers.
But, co-ops (which start in second year) tend to be much more meritocratic, especially the off cycles. Even with nothing / some bs landscaping job after first year - if you keep a good gpa, have done some pitches/comps, you WILL have your opportunity to interview for good shops on bay throughout the co-op program. At the end of the day whoever actually gets those seats is usually the best technically or had put the most effort into networking.
The extra time and co-ops were a blessing to me since I couldn’t get any early interviews outside of the program. Once you’ve padded your resume you recruit for a penultimate summer with 2-3 jobs vs Ivey/Qcom’s 1 summer after first year and an incoming.
If I was as untargeted as I was in the beginning, I truly believe I wouldn’t have been as successful in recruiting from Ivey/Qcom.
Hope this was helpful.
Context: Incoming at Toronto Global
Yeah WAM is also incredibly stupid because you don’t even need to go to Ivey to get it anymore ROFL
Yeah WAM is also incredibly stupid because you don’t even need to go to Ivey to get it anymore ROFL
Nice post, OP. I did my MBA at Ivey so good to get some insight on the undergrad side.
The MBA I believe has also declined in quality over the years. My understanding is that it was legitimately world class in the 90s and 2000s. I think right now it is clearly the best in Canada, but Canada isn't really an MBA market. The bar for entry is also lower than the HBA side for sure. The result is half the class is sharp and half is to be honest mediocre. If Ivey chose to limit the MBA intake to 1 section instead of 2 (so same size as Queens), MBA outcomes would be head and shoulders above all other programs in Canada, assuming they are cutting the bottom half of candidates. Additionally, it is more of a feeder into management consulting, or management roles in industry. Very minimal finance placements.
You’re drinking the koolaid, the MBA is trash - what’s the point of a one year MBA with no internship. MBA isn’t as valuable in Canada, but Rotman is the only real MBA program.
I think this is directionally right, even if some of the post is probably overstated. The main point is not “Ivey is bad now,” it’s that people still talk about it like it’s the old automatic conveyor belt to Bay Street/NY, when the class is way bigger, recruiting starts earlier, and the path is a lot less plug-and-play than it used to be.
Honestly the biggest mistake is normal kids hearing the Ivey name and assuming the brand alone will carry them. It still places well, but it feels much more like you need to claw for it now unless you are in the right clubs / circles / background bucket. So yeah, still a great school, just not the cheat code people think it is.
Agreed! My goal was just to explain why the median Ivey outcome is not what public perception is anymore. Still a great school and any business job you want is attainable through it.
Still the best Canadian program - that's how we view it on the street in the U.S. everything else is a bar below except for Queen's
where is barclayscalgarydemon when you need his input the most...
Im busy applying for the Left Lane Associates internship
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