Laid off mortgage clerk needs a bonus trajectory
I was a clerk at a mortgage desk for 3.5 years. I don't know why I was never advanced to trading. My bonuses were really small and in 06, I didn't even get one. At the end of 07, I was laid off.
Obviously, I want to trade rather than clerk at my next job, and preferably with some degree of seniority. In order to do that, I'm going to have to represent myself as a "star" rather than as a mediocrity and a long-time clerk. I basically know how to do that, because I did a bit of acting in college and I interview extremely well.
Since "star" status is basically numerical, this comes down to the need to come up with a believable bonus trajectory. Obviously, I don't want to be ridiculous and say I made $5m in my first year, since no one will believe that. I want to represent myself as a top performer without breaking credibility. What would the 98th percentile trader (not clerk) earn in 04, 05, 06, and 07, assuming quick promotion to trader status and a summer 04 start?
Russ, I think this really goes beyond the bounds of embellishment and making yourself look good - this is a bold-faced lie.
Not that you might not get away with it, but it's very easy to check - banking/trading is a very small world.
Think twice...
Of course it's a lie, but this is what everyone does when they change jobs, so I don't think it's wrong at all. Will get away from it, as anyone who contradicts my trajectory I will sue the shit out of, because that information is confidential. Then their wages will be garnisheed, and I'll never have to work again.
Think about all of the actual traders who have been laid off recently from places like Citi who are going to be competing for those same jobs. Honestly, how are you going to even discuss the subtleties of the job when you've never held it. 3.5 years is a long time, I just don't see how you would pull this off discussing only your bonus during interviews...
Especially for experienced hires, any real trader will see right through someone claiming to have 3.5 years trading experience but actually has 0.
Plus - isn't it obvious from the job description and your references that you were not a trader before? Or do you plan to falsify those as well?
Quite an elaborate illusion you plan on creating...
Maybe I should take some acting classes too in my last semester.
References will be friends and other laid-off co-workers posing as bosses. This part's easy as shit. Resume was bumped a bit. I sat between two good traders, so I learned enough from what they did that I can show decent market knowledge. If I have to slide back to a 1st or 2nd year trading role because I seem inexperienced, that's fine. I just don't want to be a clerk again.
but dont u think bro the repercussions of doing this thing cud really hurt you later on if they found out
You are a winner
So in summary -
You will lie about the position you previously held. You will lie about your success at the fictional previous position. You will lie about your references. You will pretty much entirely misrepresent yourself while interviewing.
Are we seeing a trend here? Integrity is very important in investment banking, and your reputation is all you have. Is this perhaps the reason you didn't ever get moved up to trader? Receive a decent bonus? Get laid off in the first place?
There would be no way for them to find out without someone breaking the law by breaching confidentiality. Then I can go after that person, sue the shit out of him, ruin his life, never have to work again. Even if someone found out, the worst that could happen is that I'd get fired, and that's unlikely. In that case, I'd just embellish again. A lie repeated often enough becomes true. The tangled web often works.
Anyway, I didn't start this thread to get into a moral discussion. All bankers lie in order to seem more impressive than they are. The people who pretend they wouldn't do this in my situation are the biggest liars. I started it because I wanted reasonable advice on coming up with a 3-year-long bonus trajectory. What you think about the ethicality of what I am doing is irrelevant to my immediate needs.
Not true. What's to prevent your interviewer from calling someone on the trading desk at your former firm and asking - "So, what do you know about Russ? I hear he was one of your top performers."
At that point, the friend will obviously say "What the fuck, never heard of him. Wait, you mean clerk Russ we just let go? Oh yea - one of the best at mid morning Starbucks runs."
Sorry to hear you were laid off & best of luck. Not to be too harsh, but you said you were a mediocre long-time clerk & have no idea why you were never advanced to trading... Star performers always find are given opportunity to advance. Maybe the '06 lack of a bonus was your firm's nice way of illustrating your level of mediocrity... Not paying a bonus is a pretty non-subtle way for a firm to get the message across & avoid paying a severance package.
You can represent yourself any way you want, but you can't fake your way into a senior trading position with no direct experience and performance that was probably on the lower side of mediocre. Are you aware of that they'll actually call your references/former employers?
Obviously, present yourself in the best way possible, but attempting to get a senior position w/ incredibly transparent BS is not going to get you very far...
So are you saying that I'm better off applying for junior trading positions? That would be reasonably fine; I just don't want to clerk any more. What I need to do is represent an early transition to trading and cover up the 3.5 years of clerking. Whether I get a senior or junior popsition after that is less important.
I know about shadow references (e.g. references that you don't give but are called). It's extremely unethical on the part of the company calling but I know it happens. Anyone who speaks bad of me in the ref process I will fucking ruin. I will sue, and if that doesn't work, I'll have the person's house bruned down.
You do realize you don't have any legal grounds to sue if someone simply states the facts about your previous employment - ie. that you were a mediocre clerk - not an all-star trader.
Get a grip bud.
i think this guys making this up. Extremely unethical on the part of the COMPANY? Would someone actually say that? Fucking ruin?
I agree with you. And if not, that's worse...
It is extremely unethical on the part of a company to call a reference not given by that person. It's stalking. The references I give will be friends who will vouch my story. This will work, and if anyone calls a reference I didn't give, and that person speaks bad of me, I will sue that person until there is nothing fucking left.
There is a reason "official" company references only validate dates of employment: they don't want people to sue them.
You're right - you do seem to be the authority on everything ethical.
Also, see x13's comment above - you wouldn't know. At best, you are blacklisted from that bank. At worst, you become the next Alexy Vayner.
Somewhat explains why he could only achieve mediocre clerk status. Honestly though Russ, if you thought this would work now for a senior trading role...why didn't you apply said strategy straight out of school and get into trading directly (with those acting skills of yours) instead of working for no bonus as a clerk.
Under what grounds would you sue? I'm really confused. Also, why do you take the ethics of the company into consideration when you're clearly ignoring the moral implications of your own actions.
What you are doing is fraud with your fake references. Not only are you going to misrepresent yourself, but your friends will lie about who they are and also lie about their relationship with you.
Plus, even if they did shadow reference you, you wouldn't even know. You would just not get the job and then get blacklisted from the street and be left wondering why no one's talking to you anymore
why not just burn down the houses of everyone who rejects to give you a job? or kidnap their children?
The best thing about this thread (assuming it's real) is that Wall Street is a surprisingly small community...
i'm not a lawyer but i'm sure that there are some here who are, so please correct me if i've got it wrong...but my understanding of the law is that even if you were figure out who gave out your info to file a civil suit, you would only be able to sue them for defamation (not breach of confidentiality--you did not sign a contract with the firm obligating them to keep their mouths shut about you). in order to win a defamation suit, you would have to prove that your old firm said something about you that was untrue...
a website i found but was too lazy to read: http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Sep/1/127684.html
if you were going to try to sue the firm that did the background check on you (again assuming you found out), you may have a better chance...but I really fucking doubt it (can you seriously imagine getting up in front of a judge and saying, ok so i totally defrauded them in every single way but they shouldnt have called me on it). but again, this would be totally hypothetical because as everybodys pointed out, theres no way you'd ever know you were shadow referenced.
prevalent russ,
by your comments both in your original post, your follow-up posts, and by a glance at your sarcasm laden profile page. you come across as little more than a savage from tajikistan.
work on your finesse, and then you may get a shot.
best of luck. (no flame intended).
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