Low Testosterone in IB (or high finance in general)
Hi everyone,
As you know, IB usually comes with lack of sleep, bad diet, inability to hit the gym, VPs with ED (because of which they end up taking their anger out on the juniors, and work all night - going to a date or home would be embarrassing), adderall abuse, and guys who care too much about what the difference between Gucci Jordaan and Gucci 1953 is, all of which are related to low testosterone.
As a result, I was wondering if the testosterone level is much lower in IB compared to the general population, and what steps can be taken to get those levels back. Should banks do regular blood tests to ensure that the bankers are maintaining optimal hormone levels, and, therefore, not physically lacking, or should we leave the testosterone levels low, so that the MDs can keep asking for the whole deck to be fixed just because the footnote on pg 69 had a double space (by writing with a red pen that no one can comprehend) without the fear of an analyst getting aggressive?
our MDs don't care about us lol we can be replaced in a heart beat
Yes, but I care about my testosterone level. I don't want to be 35 and have test level similar to a 70 year old just because a boomer decided working in office is better (taking 2 hours more out of my sleep)
Yeah mate, absolutely crazy that people accept all the stress and lack of sleep that comes with this job (and some even defend it) just to make less than a good SWE. Like I have friends who aren't working at top software companies, and making $100/hr already while working from home, and almost never working beyond 6pm (plus several other perks), while we have boomers who wouldn't even allow us free coffee, or complain if we are caught doing nothing in the office for a minute. It's funny how so many college athletes go into finance, and yet everyone still accepts having the hormone levels of a grandpa. I absolutely despise people who let the whole ordeal continue just because they had it rough, or because they feel the necessity to be the top hardo. On top, the bonuses this year didn't make up for it, either
Ok? There are different skill sets in each of those industries. You code in SWE for a living... that's boring af (and hard too). IB you get to learn about companies that do matter. Yea you model and move ppt logos but at least you're not punching 1s and 0s. IB and finance requires some form of social competency to deal with people and make deals. Unfortunately SWE are filled with many socially awkward mountain dew dorito stentching neckbeards who would get panic attacks in inperson meetings. Tell biches you do SWE at Google... ""NERDDDDD""... instant turn off!! Girls think of a wuss. Tell girls you do in IB, she thinks of you more positively. ALSO, IB demands better fashion choices... SWE doesnt care if u shower once a WEEK. I would much rather work in an industry that matches my interests and have way more cooler people, EVEN if it means I supposedly get less pay (but the other IB v SWE threads confirm that in the long run finance gets compensated way better)
Hey, I wasn't trying to defend the SWE people, but making a comparison on how IB can improve. If you know anything about the software industry, you'll know that the hours until later 90s were also pretty bad, but they have made considerable efforts to reduce the time spent (apart from the development in tech). I wasn't talking about girls, but the percentage of people who go into IB and lift heavier than before is much smaller than people who lost strength/muscle, even though finance people focus more on looks. Given this, I'd want people in finance to focus more on physicality, and maybe improving little bit of WLB. If anything, I've found that the biggest hairdos in my office almost never hit the gym (could be office specific), but that creates a bad environment for everyone else too by limiting when you can hit the gym, or how long you're working. Like post-covid most banks are already back to 4-5 days in the office, and some VPs think you should be on call at 3am. I don't really see a reason to not improve WLB or focus on it, but with your mindset of calling people 'nerds', 'wuss', 'cooler people', it's likely going to be a hard task. Also, your interests aside, most of the work in IB is creating decks by scavenging for random numbers or graphics to make the slides look better - idk how many people go into IB being 'interested' in doing that.
Coming from a girl in IB… It's not an instant turn off. Maybe to the gold digger marketing girls who's goal in life is to get their MRS… but not to literally anyone else. This post is dumb
Totally agree hit the head on the nail my boy
Lift heavy - focus on compound lifts, eat clean and don’t skimp on cruciferous vegetables, catch up on sleep on the weekend and limit alcohol.. the list goes on. There are clear steps you can take to manage hormone levels while being successful in IB.
2 days of good sleep isn't good enough to recover from 3-5 days of bad sleep imo, and I'm saying this as someone who focuses on compound lifts (I'd say even as an intern, I was lifting heavier than everyone in the office, except one person who was clearly juicing up - he had around 500 lbs bench), and gets test levels (including free test) checked consistently. I don't skip on vegetables either, but fibres alone won't give you higher test levels. I don't smoke or drink either for reference. The fact is that the constant stress, and lack of sleep alone would decrease your test levels enough
This is the only correct answer. Limiting alcohol also extends to limiting recreational drug use and unhealthy caffeine levels.
Damn that’s 3 strikes for me lmao.
Exactly. Lot of people making excuses for being unhealthy when there is always ways to be healthy no matter how limited your time is.
I can barely get hard anymore and I’m 30.
Feel like this is a troll post, but I'll share my experience with low testosterone in case useful.
My case could obviously be genetic too, but my test levels tanked after getting my first corporate job (not even IBD, just a shit/abusive team culture).
A few months into my career, I noticed I was feeling like shit constantly, tested around 500ng/dl (average for an early 20s male is 700-800) . Realized I was in a terrible seat, moved to a less stressful job, but still couldn't get my hormones turned around. Tested at 214ng/dl 6 months after quitting the first job. Was sick of feeling like garbage, being moody all the time, and having *other issues*, so I jumped on TRT at the age of 23.
Was it the right choice? Who knows. Will it take a few years off my lifespan? Maybe. Data is inconclusive. Some good some bad.
What I do know is that my quality of life improved massively. I'm not a moody little bitch anymore, working out is super fun now, I need less sleep to function/ feel good (7 hours feels like 9 now), and my relationship with my wife is much better.
And oh yeah, get used to needles.
There are definitely elements that I added as joke to my post, but I'm a serious lifter who really cares about health. I don't think 700-800 is average lol. Jesse James West is around 500, and Alex Eubank around 400 (close to 200 for both when very lean), and that's after a month of focus on increasing test in Jesse's case.
I guess it all depends on what study/reference range you look at, but my advice (not that that I'm an expert) would be don't rely on youtubers as your definition of normal. Their levels are often funky for a whole host of reasons (too lean, overtraining, poor sleep schedules, not complete lifetime natty etc.) Lol I think it was Steve Cook who got tested in his sauciest bodybuilding.com prime and had levels of like 300 or something and tried to say "Look! Not only am I natural, I'm actually at a disadvantage to most of you".
For whatever its worth, the range wikipedia gives as "normal" for a 20-39 year old male is 400-1080. The reference range my lab (Quest Diagnostics, not a TRT provider or anything super gimmicky like that) gave me was 250-1100, which supposedly represents the middle 95% for all males regardless of age, which if true, means I was well into the bottom 2.5% at 214ng/dl for 23 year olds.
Anyways, I am absolutely not trying to pretend I know everything or encourage anyone to get on TRT.
Dude 700-800 is ridiculously high
It’s not ridiculously high lol 900+ is high. Test levels today have dropped tremendously compared to 50 years ago. Statistical fact.
Have gone many, many multi-week stretches barely seeing the sun these past few years in this industry, but am still aggressively horny a good portion of the day and delete beers like a mad man when I can, so hopefully that gives you a little confidence boost. Try to eat healthy M-F and intermittent fast until I rip a bowl at 2am post 16 hour battles with excel 2016 and take down a whole carton of dark chocolate almonds (still healthy right?)
Funny thing is that lack of sleep also makes me horny, but then the day I get good night's sleep I don't feel as horny anymore. In the former case, I have worst workouts, and in the latter, the best, so idk if that's related to test or something else
I would say no, usually because individuals in IB in the first place are high testosterone men (‘mostly) they all want validation, wealth, power (of some sort) etc and that’s usually a sign of a high testosterone ambitions man.
Does the hours diminish these levels? Well lack of sleep results in ppl becoming more stressed more aggressive so that does decrease testosterone levels
So it’s like a two way thing
No high test man would ever work 90 hours a week for a boss who doesn't give a fuck about him
very true lol
30 y/0 male and recently had my T-level tested as well and it was lower than normal. I want to eventually have kids so I am opting to not go forward with TRT at this time but its likely something I will explore in the future. For me, the low T is a combination of poor sleep patterns, stress, sedentary lifestyle and the use of alcohol to cope with stress. The best thing that you can do for yourself is establish boundaries at work - buy a gym membership and carve out 1 hour a day to train (cardio, crossfit, spin, compound lifts). No one will give you a hard time for this and if someone does then you should apply to a firm that prioritizes physical well-being.
Just use HCG and you’ll be good
Use HCG for increasing t-levels?
Some thoughts on how I went from 500 to 800 +
1. Test levels are not fixed. You can change them with good diet/exercise/regime
2. Vitamin D is linked to Testerone. Eat lunch outside in the Sun, etc. Find good sources of Vitamin D foods
3. Food: Don't eat anything processed. Don't eat sugar (high blood sugar will kill T). Limit the amount of red meat (cholesterol kills T). Eat as many natural foods as possible.
4. Alcohol/Drugs: Limit the amount you drink (Alcohol kills T.) Don't touch drugs at all (steroids, coke, ecstasy, whatever).
5. Sleep 8 hours + a night, uninterrupted. Have a consistent sleep schedule.
6. Caloric restriction: Limit the amount you eat. I weighed 20% more in college despite having the same bodyfat today (12-14% right now) to maintain more muscle. I had to eat like crazy to maintain this. Overeating is going to make you tired and sluggish - spikes your blood sugar levels, etc (its stresses the body to constantly process food). I eat less now and feel a lot better. There's some recent studies that have been published recently that also prove caloric restriction increases life expectancy. On the other hand, you don't want to dip below 10% bodyfat because that will kill your T.
7. Exercise - 4 days a week high rep weight training. I don't deadlift anymore or do anything thats going to overstress my nervous system (Overtraining kills T also). Do light cardio two other days (walk, run, swim, bike, etc.)
8. Surround yourself with like minded people who care about their health.
You make good point about vitamin D. I know large part of the population has low vitamin D, probably even more prevalent in IB with the lack of Sun. I also had low vitamin D, but have been supplementing pretty much daily, and it seems to have increased test levels as well
This is solid information, and I'm in agreement across the board. As an analyst, my test levels were in the low 200s, and while my doctor gave me the option to undergo TRT, I opted to look for other ways to increase my levels. 10 years later, my bloodwork shows test levels ranging from 300-600, and the increase can be attributed to the following (in order of priority)
1. Sleep - for me, sleep deprivation also enhanced my anxiety, which boosts cortisol
2. Diet
3. Exercise - switched from a PPL program to a full-body workouts 3-4x per week (eventually moved back to PPL after a few years when I had more time)
4. Supplementation - started supplementing Vitamin D, Magnesium, and Zinc (as well as Carditone for my high blood pressure)
There is this thing called Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) . That way you have testosterone day’n’night. :))
True, but do you want to be doing that rather than fixing your lifestyle naturally (assuming lifestyle related)?
Tongkat Ali + Fadogia Agrestis will help you keep your T levels in the right place.
I'd highly recommend those.
+ KSM66 Ashwaganda to help with cortisol from Stress
+ Vitamin D (as you don't get any)
+ Vitamin B12 (to keep energy levels up without the sugar or caffeine addiction)
+ L Tyrosine to help keep the brain fresh
Honestly hope that helps - it's been a huge help as I've aged in this brutal industry and my Test and Health weren't what they were in my 20s.
Thanks – didn't know B12 helps with that, and about L Tyrosine in general, so I'll try them for sure.
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