Not allowed to take vacation as AN 1? Is this normal?
I’m an analyst 1 at a BB in nyc, started a few months ago. Job has been going well, but my group told me that first years aren’t expected to take any days off (not even a single Friday here and there) unless it’s a special circumstance like a family wedding/death of a loved one/etc…
Obviously I’m entitled to vacation days as per my contract, but it seems like they’ll just give me a lower bonus if I do that, especially if other first years aren’t really taking a day off either.
Thoughts? Does this happen at other big banks?
I’m at a BB in nyc and my staffer encourages us to take all allotted vacation days.
Are you actually allowed to step away from your computer? We are encouraged to do the same. but PTO days basically just became remote working days.
Take days off. Dont let them bully you like that.
You will 100% be fired if you ever take a day off as a banker. Don’t listen to people telling you otherwise. It’s grind 24/7 and you will have to miss your own wedding(s), funerals and your children’s births. It’s the life you’ve chosen so no bitching.
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Bunch of incels on this thread that can’t tell it’s sarcasm lol
The emotional intelligence of a tea spoon.
confirmed - missed my own funeral for a live deal
You all restored my faith in humanity.
Used to work at a BB in two different coverage groups. The first group absolutely punished me for taking a week and a half off in January (mind you the only vacation I took in my first 13 months…), it caused some restaffings and the A / VP on one deal held a grudge against me until the day I left the group after that
in my second group as an N2 / A1, they got mad at me for *not* taking all of my time off haha so yea YMMV
what kind of trash deal team needs to restaff for a 1st year analyst being gone for 10 days? Lmao jesus chirst. At my smaller firm, you literally need COO approval to restaff outside of normal things like parental leave, etc.
A deal team where the analyst is the only one who does any real work apparently
Would love to know the two banks you are talking about if possible
I started off in a similar group - and you know what if they like you, they'll still like you. Give it 6 months. And if they don't, they'll still fuck you. Make a written request. And I carried that stupid mentality to my next job of not taking time off and it was just plain dumb. You get one life.
Fuck the banks and these dumb unwritten rules. I made the mistake of not using all my vacation days last year and this year all of it is going to be taken. Banks will cast you aside without a second thought so you are a clown if you think not taking any time for yourself is going to boost your reputation.
Just give plenty of notice, and use explicit language like “I am going to be on PTO…” rather than “would it be okay if I take PTO”. It’s in your contract bro. It’s on you if you don’t use it.
I think one thing I will add to this is that the analyst who took time off, whether through PTO or for religious reasons, and used the time to recharge typically were the better analyst. Long hours take a toll on many people (you may be one of those special people that can grind), and rest can keep you sharper and give you time to reflect.
Its so refreshing to see the attitude towards banking employers shift this direction as opposed to the "gRinD TilL yOu dIE" mindset that banking used to be
My first bank had the same rules. I left after a year, fuck that. Vacation is important to reset, banks should understand that
I’m an An1 at a Boutique. Had a similar experience where we got gently threatened not to take PTO during our first year.
My friend at a BB (An1, coverage) was wholeheartedly encouraged to take PTO and took all her PTO days for 2022 in October & December, so it definitely seems to vary by firm.
This is awful and not standard policy (either at banks where I have friends or at HFs where I have worked). It is bad management. If you can’t deal with an analyst being out for a few days (or even a week) here and there, you have a crap process and team. You are telling me if this analyst quit that you are F’d? No, if not you’d pay them more, you just can’t manage their absence well or in a way that isn’t a minor inconvenience. It’s either that or you are holding on to some silly “well I did it therefore you should too”. Either way, long term it’s so stupid (but in a way so is the 2 year program) because it leads to no long term (or even short term) retention (but again, due to a 2 year programs some banks won’t care). With a policy like this an analyst is likely to leave after a year, now you just spent a year training this person, they are finally decently productive and they leave, all because you wanted to squeeze a few weeks out of them, the level of stupidity is off the charts (some will argue “well we only want people who grind working here long term”, fine but you are quickly running out of people).
I monitor the vacation of the people that work for me, but to make sure that they are hitting a minimum (target about 20 days a year) not because I don’t expect them to take days off.
Do you have them stating this in email? After you leave your bank I would contact HR and state that you want to be compensated for those days. If not, you can go to the Department of Labor and file a complaint. The Department of Labor does not fuck around when it comes to denying vacation days, and not only will you get compensated for those days, your bank will incur a fine. Department of Labor will also side with you, so if you don't have proof of them denying your days, you'll still win. If possible, try to get a paper trail exhibiting this toxic policy.
this happened to me on my first year as well.. def nothing in email but 100% its the shitbag hardo associates / VPa that went thru it when they first started and now wants to push it onto new 1st years.. they legit brag about working so much or not taking leave like wtf bro get a life
they ingrain it in the group culture that 1st years shouldnt take annual leave and will make anyone who takes it feel like shit, hate IB coz of shit like this... "oh wow i cant believe AN1 is taking a two weeks break in his first year.. never in my life have i done that let alone as an AN1" like ok ur problem man lol
One time a Hardo associate chewed me out for going to a doctors appointment in the middle of the day ... turns out I had torn something in my shoulder, so I didn't care that the associate was chewing me out, I was just glad to prioritize my health
For real man. Some of these associate hardo fucks will try HARD to guilt trip you because they can’t find balance in their own lives.
It’ll be 8pm and my associate will message me shit like “haven’t eaten all day, gonna step away for 5” like okay bro, that’s your problem.
Used to be standard back when I was an analyst that AN1 takes no days off (tbh you get 10 days during Christmas because no one works). But then takes 2 week offs at the end of the year. Seemed reasonable
Wdym no one works Christmas? Maybe it’s because this has been a worse year but we pretty much worked the entire week between Christmas and New Years with a few hours on the weekend days as well.
2022 was a chill year and unless you were on live deals I can't imagine you worked. I've worked 1/8 christmas weeks I've been in finance
If everyone in your analyst class takes vacation they can’t really do anything
This is real life. Not some silly course at university where exams were graded on a curve. Banks don’t have to pay anything in terms of bonus, they can decide to not pay anyone anything. Similarly, they can rank you all as bottom bucket.
Your comment is just another example of the level of immaturity of most juniors these days.
This is probably not normal to be so formalized. A lot of places "give" you vacation as an analyst but it's a weird unwritten rule to not take them.. idk why
Name and shame!
This is easy. You and all of the other first years agree to put in 1 week of vacation each (staggered) that way you all get time off and they can't punish all of you
At my bank they will chase you if you don't take at least a week off (firm policy) but anything beyond that week is going to be scrutinized. I would definitely try for 1 full week off, maybe occasional Friday if you have wedding or travel etc, and you can take a bit more as a second year
What type of bank do you work at?
BB
Just take the vacation and say that you expect to be working to appease the boss.
Yes, it’s normal.
Not the case at my bank. Know people who were able to take vacation with minimal disturbance. One guy at most just had to respond to a couple emails while in Europe.
That is a red flag for me.
Typical stupid, poor culture. If I were you I’d have many weddings and celebrations of our lost ones lol. You can’t do this job without taking proper time off and anyone saying the opposite is a moron and is not somewhere you want to be. No question.
You're always allowed to take vacation days... BUT, it's an unspoken rule to not take any during your first year. I never did during my first year, nor did anyone in my class. Once you hit that 2nd year mark you'll be able to. Trust me, seniors appreciate your availability.
In the scenario that you have an exit opportunity planned then go ahead and take those vacation days. Would not recommend you do otherwise.
Well you didn’t cause you were a scared following loser 🤣🤣🤣
If you're good at your jobs, you have leeway. If you suck, taking time off just makes you look even worse
Exactly this. I want those who are doing well and working hard to take vacation. Those who are slacking (not making it into the office until after lunch, missing calls/meeting with no notice, consistently blowing through deadlines, etc.) or are struggling to ramp should be spending time trying to get better at the job.
Was standard in my group that you got no vacation in your first 12 months. Analysts would stagger a week each in months 13-15 (slower summer time). As a second year, generally you had leeway to take that summer week, plus a winter week, and then a couple weeks in the summer before your 2 years were up.
My group was standard that AN1 didn't take any in the first 6 months. I think that is reasonable to follow. Plan to take ONE vaca in the 6-12 month period, and if they don't like it then that is that.
Also would be better to convince other analysts to do the same. Bonuses are literally percentile, so if everyone takes the same vacation they can't punish all equally.
I'm not sure what the norm is, but I would definitely not pay any attention to what the contract says. For two reasons:
1. It's widely known that the # of official vacation days is some labor law technicality handed down by HR, it's not meant for bankers.
2. If you're entitled to a certain # of days because a piece of paper says so, then the bank is entitled to pay you no bonus because the piece of paper also says they can do that. So the piece of paper isn't what governs. What governs is the reasonable expectations of the parties, i.e. what's the norm.
I’m sure you’re a super nice guy to work with
You guessed correctly.
I mean the banks do pay bad bonuses during down years. You’re acting like they uphold their end of the deal by providing a constant bonus, but they don’t.
No, I'm saying you can't pick and choose the parts of the contract that favor you and ignore the rest of it.
You say the bank pays bad bonuses in down years - but under the contract, the the bank is allowed to pay a bad bonus in any year, good or bad. So do they use the contract as an excuse to pay bad bonuses in good years? No they don't. So clearly, the contract isn't governing the relationship between the parties.
No reason to put up with that moronic cunt of a bank. Take days off if needed.
It only matters to people who aren’t good people so keep that in mind. Know a group in my bank that makes a big deal of that and they are widely known as the worst at the firm from a cultural perspective.
Take vacation after 6mo on the job. Should be adequate time.
Sounds like you’re in a hardo group.
There’s some firms that actually doc MDs pay if their juniors don’t take vacations
When I started as an analyst at Solomon Partners we use to have “flex Fridays” twice per month, were you’d work from home.
First Tuesday of each month was “Taco Tuesday” and the last Thursday of the month was “movie nights”
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For fucks sake, you joined an investment bank, not a 9-5 corporate job. You won’t be able to take all your days of holiday, and so many other things that are in your contract. Stop being a fucking crybaby and grow some balls. If you don’t like it, join all the other fuckers that are getting fired.
The normal thing is to ASK PERMISSION to take days off, to be prudent, and to give priority to the classes above you. So when you just join, you typically work until the interns arrive before taking vacation. There are exceptions (weddings, erc.)
You alright there? Someone bully you as a child and now need to take it out on others?
This is exactly the problem with the industry. You don’t even read the original response, the person isn’t asking for anything unreasonable they are saying their group says “no vacation” regardless. It’s not about asking permission or being thoughtful about what work is going on, but just “no”. That’s a stupid policy, especially when work is slow. Being in the office isn’t always value adding.
Then you have your response that is angry at the world for no reason. This person didn’t ask for handmade guac in the pantry, but rather to take days off. Surprisingly (or not at all if you understand anything) taking time off can have employees be more productive, make fewer mistakes, etc. You actually gain productivity when you have “good” employees take needed breaks (and that’s disregarding the other benefits like retention, etc).
I’ve been in finance (and HFs) for over 15 years. I work my ass off but have always taken vacation when needed. It’s never impacted my career.
What is wrong with you, your wife just dumped you so you’re trying to take it out on analysts ?
You sound like a piece of shit I’m sure you have awful interpersonal skills. Might as well not work in any front office finance role
did you bully people in school too?
I’m at a MM doing pub fin, you’re expected to take your PTO and it’s almost always unplugged. Much more of a long term view and burning out juniors doesn’t work well when the expectation is they’ll stay to be seniors.
I took 2 days in the first 12 months, was assumed you wouldn't take more than a long weekend in the back half of your first year if that.
I worked at a pretty sweaty group BB where ANL 1s were really only encouraged to take time off for weddings / funerals and around the Holidays. Holidays were convenient for the bank as unless you were on a live deal (when vacation days are pretty much invalid) there was nothing going on anyways and were a way for the group to prove you were taking your days off.
With that said, even our chiller VPs encouraged first years to wait 6 months before taking a week off... and I felt this was fair at the time. For us, we'd generally have to pull another analyst on the deal (or in some cases an intern) to cover for vacations, so it would actually impact other analysts at the bank and I always felt I didn't want to put second years in a bad spot while I was still fresh.
I remember once even as a second year analyst I tried taking a long weekend (so only a Friday off) to take a trip for my buddies birthday... my DIR put in email that I would also need to take the Saturday and Sunday off as PTO since I was on a 'live deal' if I wanted to go on this trip. My ASO told me he'd cover, but I felt bad and cancelled the trip. I told my staffer this and it made its way up to the MDs who pretty much guaranteed me a week off once the ANL 1s ramped up (which I did get to take), but this was pretty much has bad as it gets in my mind (and the second time I had to cancel a long weekend trip as an ANL 2).
The only other anecdote I think might be helpful is an ANL 1 tried taking a week off in my literal last week at the bank (was going to PE). I had spent the past month handing off my live deals to him and had been shifted to working on the classic lame duck tasks (boring pitches, intern help, etc.) but then he asked me to jump right back into the trenches when I was 99% checked out. He brought it up to the staffer first, the staffer told him to clear it with me (funny move by him). I told him he could go but kinda reamed him out for making me work in my last week when I had already transitioned off. He ended up not taking the trip that week. I didn't feel bad at the time (probably because I was so burnt out after the COVID stretch) but now a few years later think I came on a little strong.
TL, DR: depends on the group and there will definitely be people who aren't happy in the short term, but I'd allow enough time to prove yourself as a decent analyst before asking (not sure if it needs to be 6 months but maybe 3) for more than a day or two off, and check with those who will be covering for you since they are the most impacted. But, as others had said on this thread, request time far out in advance so your staffer can work around and make it as easy as possible.
Hope this was helpful and not just me venting about some horror stories and how working in banking makes you turn into callous work resource.
Assuming you recently graduated you just had a 4 year vacation.
This is your first job, so a bit of candid advice. It sounds like you joined the wrong team, and more broadly the wrong industry.
You can try to fight the industry, and we can debate whether things could be different or not, but the matter of fact is that things are the way they are.
You have two options: either quit, or really understand what are the expectations of you at this time of your career in the institution you are working and within your team.
If your bank is like the banks I’ve worked for, the expectation is as follows:
(1) Your job may and more likely will require a good deal of sacrifice. You’re expected to spend an inordinate amount of time at work to the detriment of your personal relationships.
(2) You are available 24/7
(3) The ability to take time off is at the discretion of your manager, and to ensure continuity of business and fairness typically a manager helps coordinate the vacation requests
(4) Work life balance improves as you become more efficient at your work and as you move up in the corporate ladder
When I joined the industry years back, I even had to sign an addendum to my contract that said something like “I agree to work more than the stipulated hours, and as many hours as required”. The original contract said “40 hours / week”. Not sure if they still do that.
Now, if you ask my opinion - I think I’d probably have said something similar than the hardo you talked to, especially if you joined only a couple of months ago. There are probably people in your team that couldn’t take holidays in a while because they were busy on deals. Those guys should take holidays before you do. If your argument is that you don’t have much to do, then either you are understaffed and you should jump on more projects, or the team is overstaffed and you are putting your neck out to get fired.
If you don’t like the above answer and want to claim that you are entitled to your vacation days, the reality is that you are approaching this wrong. First, your manager probably is entitled to approve or not your holidays. You can probably carryover days from one year to the next so you don’t lose them. But more importantly, your manager can decide not to pay you a bonus, which brings me back to the expectation point. You can argue that it is expected for a bonus to be paid. Equally, it is expected that you will do whatever your manager says without complaining.
Typical hardo response, acting like the bank will fall apart of an analyst takes days off.
And no bank in the world lets you rollover vacation days so stop spreading misinformation
The level of detachment from reality is amazing.
With some exceptions, ANL1 are close to useless for the first 6 months as they are learning. Just let that sink. You are being staffed in projects were your value add is sometimes negative, and we are doing that to train you.
Now, imagine that in such context you ask for days off because you want to go with some friends to Cartagena in Spring Break. You request that after your VP had to spend a late night because the model you put together was all wrong and your ASO (who is also 6 months in and is learning) didn’t properly fix.
The bank is not gonna fall apart if you take holidays. It will not fall apart if you never ever come back to work either. This is not about the bank. Is about you, your productivity, your contribution to the team, and your belonging to a team where you all push to the same goal, where there are teammates that have sacrificed a lot for the team and you should have the decency and understanding that they should take holidays before you do.
Lmao and you wonder why investment banks are having such bad issues with analyst retention.
PTO is in our contract. Deal with it.
You know what else is in your contract?
Deal with it.
The level of entitlement of some analysts is just out of this world. I’ve personally prefer to hire PSD kids from non-target schools or guys that have been 1-2 years at shitty back-office roles and that appreciate how lucky they are to work in this industry, than entitled guys like you who will put a face when asked to basically have no life for their first year.
Seems a bit strict however I will say that I guess I didn't really take vacation until I was in my second year in retrospect.... HOWEVER when I did all that it was pre-COVID / remote working which I think has changed things.
Whenever you start a new job my rule of thumb is wait at least 6 months to take vacation in any event...
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