Talking back / not taking shit
I am an Analyst at a MM shop.
I like the work, getting a lot of client exposure, not so much modeling though, but overall satisfied with the job and the other Juniors.
However, I am absolutely tired of being treated like dirt by the VPs. It is as if their parents completely failed at teaching the absolute minimum of emotional intelligence and human decency.
Just one example: This week, I was newly staffed on a deal because I had to cover for another Analyst who is on holiday. Literally the first day working on it, the VP texts me to focus exclusively on this project from 9 to 11AM because we had a meeting with the MD afterwards and he wanted to show some progress. Everything went well.
Then, in the evening, he gets back to me why I haven't progressed on the slides (in the most confrontative and rude way possible). He continues to lecture me on the supposed fact, that it was agreed upon that I should only focus on this deal for today.
Which,
A) it wasn't, only from 9 to 11AM with no further guidance, not even mentioning that he wanted to send the IM for comments to the client that day (remember, its literally my first day working on this deal with next to no prior knowledge about it or where all the files are that I need / not even knowledge if they exist or not)
B) He said he talked to another VP for whom I am working for — it was agreed that I will only be working for him that day. However, as it turns out, that was a plain lie, because I checked with the other VP. He said this guy never spoke to him.
C) I got everything done nevertheless, as he asked me to. This was despite the fact that I had to sort through a shit ton of files to check if we have all the info we need and sort out which info is still pending and which we have received (going through I don't know how many emails which he all forwarded)
And then at the end, he tells me that I didn't put together a document where I listed all the things that are still pending vs the things we need to still request — even though he never asked for that. Again, it was my first day working on this deal, with 0 prior knowledge.
There is a other VP who is also similar in the sense that he is just plainly rude all the time. The guy has a serious aggression problem and he calls you aggressively out for giving a file not the "proper" name. Just nitpicking basically and being rude non stop.
This type of behavior makes me not like my work to be honest, even though I am doing well, because 2 MDs have told me so personally.
I am at the point where I just want to talk back to these 2 VPs if they come at me with their nonsense again. Not in a rude way, but in a firm "I do good work, but fuck off with your bullshit attitude" kind of way.
I am also at the point where I don't really care about getting fired anymore because these 2 people make life UNNECESSARILY miserable.
That is why I am wondering if I should start talking back to them? Again, not in a rude, but firm way. I would also like to mention that I don't really care about promotions because I am not going to stay at this shop long-term.
You mentioned talking back to them like 4 times. I think you know the answer..
Welcome to finance. An old MD once said to me, “you know, it isn’t the work that causes people to leave, it’s the people”
The answer is obvious to anyone who has worked a corporate job and especially people in IB: no, you can’t talk back and if you do, you are going to get fired or poor reviews pretty quickly.
IB is a hierarchical, political job and shit rolls down hill. MD’s unfairly yell at directors and VP’s, they yell at associates and associates and senior analysts yell at analysts and interns. If this bothers you an immense amount, you need to weigh it versus what you are paid and how interesting the work is. Otherwise, you are starting to understand partially why many analysts leave after 2 years.
Being treated like crap isn’t fun, hang in there. Don’t let them get the best of you. Hopefully, you get staffed on a new team in a few months and you end up with a better manager. Talking back is the beginning of the end though.
Based on previous WSO threads, dealing with difficult VPs and considering talking back can be a challenging situation. Here are some insights and advice from the WSO community:
Key Points to Consider:
Emotional Intelligence and Decency:
Specific Incidents:
Impact on Job Satisfaction:
Advice from WSO Community:
Dealing with Rude and Aggressive Behavior:
Handling Miscommunication:
Talking Back:
Long-Term Considerations:
Example Responses:
Conclusion:
Dealing with difficult VPs requires a balance of firmness and professionalism. By clarifying expectations, documenting communications, and responding politely but firmly, you can manage the situation effectively. If the environment becomes too toxic, it might be worth considering other opportunities where your work is appreciated and respected.
Sources: Female Bullying in Prop Firm, PJT Partners Viral Email Finally Hits the News!, Talk me off the cliff, Director told me seniors in my team don’t like me because I speak out, Female Bullying in Prop Firm
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I'll kinda take the opposite stance of the norm and I think you should push back. In a respectful way ofc but stand your ground. I will prolly get MS but like I stg I see the people on WSO always tell people to keep their heads down and grind it out and I'm thinking to myself you're a grown ass man getting treated like shit and just accepting it like a bitch. Everyone's so scared to do anything so nothing ever changes and everyone wonders why. I'm not saying to fight ur VP but stand your ground, voice ur concerns, keep receipts, etc. Be respectful and tolerant but don't be a pushover.
Only real solution to this is to get a different job, whether that’s a different IB group or an exit from IB etc. At the end of the day if the people you work with are abrasive and rude, and liars, that’s just who they are, and talking back won’t change it. Nothing will change it. Until you get that exit, suggest you keep things curt and professional. Don’t let it get to you, and at the very least don’t let anybody see that it’s getting to you (I know it’s hard).
If a grown ass 30+ yo man feels a deep seated desire to bitch out and lie to people 10 years younger than him every day, do you think talking back is gonna fundamentally change that? There’s plenty of good IB groups where most people aren’t (unnecessarily, constantly) abrasive.
I stood my ground and the VP stopped asking for me on his deals (which I was planning), but he also put in bad ratings on my performance and so I got mid bucket instead of top bucket, which all the people who actually worked closely with me said I should have gotten. Then I quit because I knew I deserved more $ and recruited for the buyside while traveling with friends. Recruiting after quitting was hard asf but I ended up skipping a title and got a sabbatical along the way. Supply and Demand - have confidence in your value.
How did you swing the title skip? Did you go pretty far downstream for PE relative to your bank?
Am considering doing something similar. Have heard great things from almost everyone I work with but I really can't stand one person and it's definitely going to impact me.
you can talk back if you can afford it. if you know that you're well qualified / overqualified for the place and can easily bounce to a better place if you have to, then feel free to talk back. however, if you're lucky to be there and wouldn't be able to land another job like this, then you just have to take it.
in my example, I never took crap at my current place from no one, cause I knew that I'm one of the most qualified people there. it's been a while and I'm now at a senior role, while most ppl who talked crap got booted out.
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