Thoughts on frat culture in banking
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I have been to China and have Chinese friends, the culture was far from being nerdy or not social. There were parties everywhere, people were drinking, everybody was socializing.
So, if any Asian student wouldn't fit the IB bill, maybe that's a personal thing.
Asians make good investment bankers from what I have seen. Language skills can be learned, it just takes many years to be fluent if you come from a non English/non Euro culture.
I was born and raised in the US and I don't drink any alcohol. Several of my friends also don't drink and work in finance. Not sure where this extreme view comes from... this isn't American Psycho.
You can be in the West and not drink for a variety of reasons, mainly being a friend of bill's, being religious, 2A, having health issues, trying to lose weight, trying to be healthy, you are lifting weight/have fitness goals, and so many more. Nobody has to justify why they don't drink and I haven't seen people being forced to drink alcohol during a deal. Our deals are always very professional and corporate. Yes, there are after work drinks, but there isn't always time for that at all. we are busy.
This is more cultural rather than linked to alcohol. Many people I met during my global travel just have a different cultural background and that isn't always compatible with US or UK culture. So what, if the decision was made to permanently live and work in the US, eventually you'd have to adapt.
Thanks for sharing! And I apologize if what I said comes across as extreme. I don't mean to label all westerners as alcoholic, but a lot of people I met in the US did appear very surprised when I said I did not drink at all. I am definitely not saying that the US finance industry discriminates against guys who don't drink. It's just that because drinking is a very important component of social lives in US (from what I see around me), not being able to drink makes it harder for me to fit in the group, especially as a foreigner. Imagine an Asian male in a group event with a serious appearance, doesn't speak native English, doesn't share a lot of common hobbies with the group (like football), and orders an orange juice when everyone else is having beer. It is natural that he appears as a bit awkward and be perceived negatively in IB which stresses the social aspect so much. This is the situation I find myself in now. It is certainly on me to improve my english to native level and as you said language skills can be learned, but challenges in engaging in social events (because I don't drink alcohol) also makes improving communication skills in english and picking up sociable vibes a difficult process for me.
There is far more alcohol in daily life abroad than in the US. The UK is way more into alcohol than what you are seeing.
I know a Brit MD who downs at least two pints for lunch, almost every day.
you answered your own question, you come across as "too foreign".
it's up to you to change this. And it's not the alcohol, there are many elements to it. Becoming more fluent in English is far more relevant, but also learning language from a more practical view. If you are trying to land a deal, clients should like you.
Ordering an orange juice, speaking frankly, is not really going to come across as a mature or professional drink. If everyone else is having beer, then you can drink a spritzer, a virgin mojito, san pellegrino sanbitter, or any of those non-alcoholic alcohol-looking drinks. It's fine to not share a lot of hobbies but at least pretend you do and read some highlights. If you have a serious or unapproachable appearance then you will need to make yourself more relaxed and approachable. Finance, either quantitative or banking, is a people-focused industry.
What does "friend of bill's mean?
AA
In the end people generally hire who they would like and get along with.
Doing otherwise is just sub optimal. That's why diversity forced hires often negatively Impact group culture.
To be honest, you sound great on paper but perhaps picking up some social hobbies is a better pursuit of your free time.
As a senior banker I want my new hires to be likeable and to be someone I see being a future rainmaker. If you're a nerd with no social skills then you're not hoping to fit into a group with high client face time for junior bankers.
I am not into parties but no offense you sound so boring
I came here to say the above. Look man, I have friends who don’t drink and go out for a few different reasons (family issues with addiction, or they just don’t like it). It’s one thing to say hey that’s not my thing you do you and another to bitch and complain about others having fun. You fall into that later category, and that goes against the grain. During your SA people may ask you to go out. My advice would be oder a soda water with lime, be as social as you can and don’t complain. I think doing otherwise will negatively impact your ability to get a return offer.
You're spending 80+ hours a week with these people so you want them to be sociable. Firms hire plenty of internationals, but they are usually the ones who have figured out how to socialize within American norms - totally fine if you don't like football or don't drink (plenty of people don't drink), but if you don't fit in culturally they have every right to hire someone they can have an easy, chill conversation with.
No one is going to have an intellectual conversation at 2am about classical music, that is a totally valid interest but you can't expect others to want to talk about it. You 100% need to be able to shoot the shit about casual topics... what you did that weekend and any travel you have coming up. That will be the expectation in ANY corporate role.
Also, "Maybe an explanation is US clients like to hire sociable (fratty) bankers, but why should they care about anything other than how much money they need to pay or will be paid in the deal?" analysts and associates have ZERO impact on whether or not deals happen / how much firms get paid. Their only role is to get handed work (often BS work that will never lead to anything) and do it. The work is also not that difficult. So you want to hire capable, smart people, but people who you want to spend time with is VERY important.
If you go for quant HFs or quanty roles, then you’d fit right in … if you don’t like the socialising aspect then maybe IB and client facing roles are not the best?
If this is the case, then is there a reason you wouldn't prefer a more quantitative role?
Doing business in Asian countries, particularly in China, heavily relies on drinking, taking clients out, etc. What you're describing isn't distinctive to the US. Socializing in Asia (at least where I lived) is also going out and drinking alcohol. You can get by in banking without drinking alcohol, but it's wrong to think this only happens in the US.
You're spending 75+ hours a week with these people. Especially as a junior, you go to work to work and to talk about things that other people want to talk about. Even if you don't like football or soccer or boxing or whatever it is, the fact of the matter is that these things are common in finance so at the very least, pretend you follow it and spend 5 minutes reading some highlights so you chat with the others and even with clients. If you want to talk about things that you want to talk about, then you need to make some friends outside of work. As others have said, nobody is going to want to chat about Rachmaninoff at 3 am. If you make MD, then maybe you can make some juniors talk about Rachmaninoff at 3 am with you.
Please make sure to drop your GPA and SAT scores in conversations about fitting in socially. Should win you a lot of friends!
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