Curious to know how many large US and European investment banks view the sleeping needs of staff. Is there a divide between junior staff who expect more sleep versus older staff? Is there a culture or general clash? Are some investment banks worse than others?
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No, it was absolutely insane.
As someone who worked in banking with serious chronic health conditions where specialists advised me to prioritize sleep and stressed the importance of getting good sleep, I never once used my medical condition as an excuse for preferential treatment. I worked on 5 hours or less regularly, many weeks in a row. I was grateful for the opportunity, and wanted to prove myself. The last thing I wanted was to be seen as different due to my condition. I ultimately left banking because I wasnt the right person for it, but it never crossed my mind to request preferential treatment. That would mean I couldnt do the job as expected. That was never an option for me.
Major Edit: I realized I didnt include critical context. Copying and pasting a response from below as I think it helps shed light on my specific situation.
"I spent three years of my life grinding to get an offer in banking. Then, I received new information from a doctor that high stress and limited sleep was risky for my health. I gave it a shot, worked a year in the field, and realized that the lack of sleep was in fact an issue. However, I learned handling high stress jobs had little to no effect on my health, so I am glad I challenged myself and didnt just take the feedback at face value. I never suffered any medical consequences, and I was prepared to walk away at any point in time. But my options were always clear - do the job as intended, or walk away. SUING because I wasnt up for a corporate office job is a joke, do not get it twisted. No one forced me to clip $6k paychecks every two weeks. Its not like it was either IBD or homelessness, there are plenty of 9-5 office jobs that pay the bills."
wow good job bro risking your health / quality of life for a job that would fire you in 15 minutes. its a job at the end of the day, and no job is worth throwing away your life for and just because you were willing to do it not everybody else does.
Ok so here's a question, why would you sign up for the job if you knew you couldn't meet the responsibilities and expectations? Kathryn Shiber (this is not doxxing, it is public information as she filed a public lawsuit btw) knew she could not do the job from day 1, but still she came in asking for preferential treatment. In an industry like banking, this is DELUSIONAL. Imagine going to get a job on an oil rig (another highly demanding but high paying job) and being like "Oh yeah, I have a bad back, so I cant do more than 4 hours of manual labor a day. Heres my doctor's note btw". The question remains, what the f*ck are you doing in banking if you want to prioritize your sleep?
As for myself, I am not looking for some sort of recognition, but I spent three years of my life grinding to get an offer in banking. Then, I received new information from a doctor that high stress and limited sleep was risky for my health. I gave it a shot, worked a year in the field, and realized that the lack of sleep was in fact an issue. I never suffered any medical consequences, and I was prepared to walk away at any point in time. But my options were always clear - do the job as intended, or walk away. SUING because I wasnt up for a corporate office job is a joke, do not get it twisted. No one forced me to clip $6k paychecks every two weeks. Its not like it was either IBD or homelessness, there are plenty of 9-5 office jobs that pay the bills.
Also, when you're older you'll understand how hard it is to walk away from something that you spent years of your life sacrificing just to get a chance to do. My goal for all of my early adult life was to work in private equity. I got the offer, and had to turn it down. Why? Because I had to prioritize my health. I am not looking for any credit or recognition, thats just how life works. I am looking for people to hear me out as one of the select few people who pursued a highly demanding career path despite serious and unique health challenges. In this particular case, I believe it makes me more qualified to opine on Kathryn's situation.
You being a retard is not a reflection of the industry as a whole
You might think you're being a hero but all you're really doing is setting a terrible example for anyone who means well but gets trapped into thinking they don't have a choice.
Also, by every account she raised the issue and followed the team/company's direction as to how to proceed and then somehow got fired for following the compnay's guidance?
Calling me a "retard" when you dont know have the full context is a bad look for you.
See my added context above and lmk if you still feel that way.
She should never have been in the industry in the first place. Anyone smart enough to get an offer at CVP would know that... There was never a scenario in which she expected to do the job as described and outlined. Therefore, she should not have even applied.
When your boss is doing your work for you, you are unfit for the role. If her Associate is covering for her consistently, she couldnt do the job.
I, for one, can't get past the hilarity of a Citi employee referring to others as "retards"
Every payday must feel like the fucking Superbowl at Citi since there's a reasonable chance the back office accidently wired you a billion dollars
I don’t think the fact that u grinded it out and risked ur health doing so is a flex. Shoulda got the bag my boi 💰
Nobody should get preferred treatment but everybody should get a minimum floor that respects basic human biology. Doctors say we need 7-9 hours of sleep per night.
Having a floor at call it 6 or even 5 would be nice. If something requires junior bankers to sleep less than 6 hours of night then it just gets done a day later. It’s kind of crazy that we force juniors to work all night or multiple days with three or four hours of sleep.
This is coming from someone that grinded through the analyst years. I don’t think it makes me hard or tough though, it’s just sad I had to go through that and that others are still going through that.
If we were to get clinical, there’s also a biological diminishing return on accuracy for every incremental hour after let’s say, a 16 hour day.
Banks should invest in understanding where that threshold is and enforce it
It was a ridiculous case, anyway. First, why even apply to investment banking roles, if you have that need? The hours are notorious. And Centerview? Come on. Also, her associate made a valid point... why should he have to work extra hours at night to cover for her? What about his mental health and wellbeing? It doesn't help ANYONE'S mental health sleeping only 3 hours. Frankly, the fact she took this to court, does a disfavour to people who ask for very reasonable adjustments (with potentially worse issues). I'm surprised this case was even allowed to enter court, I would have thrown it out if I was the judge. It is laughable.
Yes. They gave her a medical exemption and reneged. HR person that did that definitely got fired
Is that a fact? The HR person got fired?
No, I am hypothesizing
Yeah this was the issue and ultimately why they settled
Thank you for all these posts. They are insightful and there is a sharply divided range of views which is interesting. Do people who have already commented think there is a general divide between senior investment bankers who worked most of their career in the pre-Covid days and expect juniors to work whatever hours god sends them? As set against junior bankers who might think they deserve more sleep?
Delete
The problem with seniors thinking that they did it back in the day so juniors should do it now is that they conveniently forget how much they got paid back in the day vs. how much juniors get paid now. We have seen posts here of current MDs saying they made $300-400k as associates 20+ years ago. What was median 1BR rent in Manhattan in 2005?
$2500 - $3000 was normal at that time for a nice 1 bedroom. I had 4 roommates and paid $1500/mo.
So rent has gone up 50% since then, banking pay has since declined.
You have every right, as an employee, to shoot your shot and ask for whatever accommodations. 100% on CVP for accommodating and trying to pull it back. Slam dunk easy win for the employee in civil court, especially in NYC.
I started having health issues and my doctor said it was directly because my lack of sleep. I couldn’t open one of my eyes for a month because I had so much strain, and my seniors didn’t care. Left banking because I knew my health would continue to deteriorate. There needs to be more guard rails around hours
Seems like there's 2 different broad questions here.
theres a lot of bootlickers on this thread that remind me of boxer from animal farm. fact is she got a medical exemption that was approved by HR that was reneged. juniors deserve better working conditions and the fact that abusing juniors is a rite of passage is wrong.
Define right?
Legally I think she had a case, they were foolish to offer accommodations and then renege on them. She was selfish to go into the industry expecting special treatment though.
If you require 8 hours of sleep, go into consulting or some other equally prestigious field that isn’t known for horrible hours. The pay comes with a price, and it was arrogant to assume she could have her cake and eat it too.
She got her settlement, she comes from money, but she is un-hireable. Who would ever take this risk again?
Centerview was always going to settle, they (and the whole industry) can’t afford a public precedent being set here. However, will we see more copycats is the question 🤷♂️
Not sure how many here have had to manage an employment lawsuit. I've done it twice for total BS. Both times my insurance company who were also paying the lawyers told me to just settle. It would cost them $60-80k vs $500k to fight in court. Even if we won, regardless of how right we were, it would make a much bigger impact to my forward premiums than settling. Crapy situation as you have to put your morals aside and just make a business decision. I had plenty of documentation and would have easily won both cases according to the lawyers, but the lawyers and insurance co both pushed hard for me to settle as it was in the company's best interest. I still don't feel good about it, even years later.
The job is attractive for a few reasons, but high pay is a big reason.
The pay is high for a few reasons, but long hours are a big reason.
So the arrangement in large part is a trade of hours for money. To take that job and then say you don't want to put in the same hours as everyone else is totally ridiculous.
huge difference between saying you need a baseline level of sleep for health reasons and asking if that's feasible to your team vs. not putting in the hours.
I don't know the specifics, but if they went to bed at midnight every night and worked through the weekends, I would have no issue with that and frankly that would be an improvement to 95% of my analysts/associates.
If you went to bed at midnight for health reasons and then went out Friday/Saturday, that would be an issue
But we all need a baseline level of sleep for health reasons. And many of us (not just IB but people in many other professions too) decide to sacrifice that sleep for some period of time to get ahead in life.
The idea of a "mood disorder" that creates unique sleep needs is right up there with ADHD, food sensitivities and all the other bullshit that only afflicts soft rich white kids.
Timeline (iirc)
Have condition -> apply and start role -> ask for accommodation (protected hours for sleep) -> CVP APPROVES accommodation -> team has to do her job in these hours -> CVP renegs on accommodation and terminates -> she sues
Why did they settle?
Outcome aside, probably cheaper than the legal costs, plus disruption to business from HR and various employees having to take the stand.
Why did she sue?
She thought she could at least get a settlement, which she has.
Should she have sued?
Morals aside, CVP HR fucked up the moment they tried to accommodate her condition. Reneging on this opened the door to lawsuit.
Impact on industry?
HR are going to be told not to try accommodate anyone as it could be a liability. If you can't do the role as everyone else, you're terminated. Net impact: those with genuine at the edge requirements get screwed by this. (Imagine you have a condition you need a treatment/transfusion/etc for once a month, it's now less likely you'll get approved because of potential liability if they change their mind)
Seeing a lot of comments about how long hours and being on call is something we should just accept in IB. So I am going to go in a different direction and say that with the advent of automation and AI etc. the whole "sacrificing 20s" for inefficient grunt work (i.e., the pedigreed IB tasks that require late night edits and pointless changes which a lot of people here wear proudly on their chests) will start looking more and more ridiculous.
At the end of the day, the job is a glorified client SERVICING role masquerading as a client ADVISORY role. Most of the advice is commodified and if / when imparted is done so by those in the upper echelons. The majority of the working group is just doing "execution", most of which is just churning out outputs.
Point is, if the AI roll-out does bring about even a 20-30% efficiency gain especially on the manual LABOUR of data gathering (I lump everything from setting up a model, processing comments, marketing materials in this godforsaken category), the people looking back and thinking they were doing god's work may just realise precisely how "high browed" the work they had been doing was.
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