I want to start this by saying that I understand that WFH is a polarizing topic - but, ironically, that is the root of the issue. There are two sides to this coin... there are those who think that WFH has been the single most powerful, life-enhancing change that they've experienced in their career, and there are those who are completely miserable and feel the walls rapidly closing in on them as they grind away in isolation. I believe the default (pre-COVID) was on the wrong side of the coin, and that WFH should be the accepted norm, with office work occurring only on an as-needed basis.
As someone who falls on the "WFH is the single most powerful, life-enhancing change I have experienced in my career" side of the spectrum, I figured I would share why I feel this way, and why I feel it should be the default system in investment banking.
This all really starts with one, hardly debatable fact: Investment Banking is broken.
"Those days"
Everyone has had "those days". You know, the days where the amount of time working amounts to the average 9-5 job, but the time distribution is so bad that it contributes just as much to burnout as the 20 hour days. Anyone who has spent time at the junior level in IB has experienced this many, many times: You send out a book at 11am to your deal/pitch team, sit in the office trying to look busy until 7pm, order dinner (without considering packing it up early, you know what is coming), get hit with 8pm comments that need to be turned immediately, and proceed to work until 4am. You then come in at 9-10am frustrated and tired, just to repeat the same process again. Personally, I find those days/weeks to be equally, if not more, painful than the times when you are so busy that you can't look away from your screen and hit 110 hours for the week.
The reality is - it's difficult to put blame on anyone in this situation, and it's even harder to tell MD's who have been in the industry for 20+ years to change the way they operate. The problem is that the schedules of junior bankers and senior bankers simply do not align. Seniors spend their time on the road meeting with clients, and oftentimes looking at a book/providing comments is something they can't get around to until late at night.
Increased happiness and fulfillment
One thing I have noticed since WFH became a mandated thing: I no longer find myself getting pissed off at my VP's/MD's for saying nothing all day, and then sending comments late at night. Go ahead - hold on to those comments all day. In the meantime I will live my life. Instead of sitting in the office twiddling my thumbs, I can go for a run, hit the gym, read a book, cook a healthy meal, and spend time outside or laying by the pool. I can do other things that bring happiness and fulfillment to my life.
My single biggest issue with the requirement/norm of coming in to the office is that it prevents you from doing things that genuinely interest you, aside from finance. You are less able to do things that contribute to you being a well-rounded person. Simple things like reading a book, watching a documentary, creating music, writing or reading up on non-financial topics that interest you on the internet - all are not acceptable in-office activities. While you're in the office, you have to appear "busy", or at the very least be reading up/learning things directly relevant to the job/finance. The feeling of being restricted from doing things you love, especially when you're not actually busy, is the quickest way to create resentment and hostility towards your job.
I am not saying that there is no place for collaboration - there are times where sitting side-by-side with someone is absolutely necessary. I just think the current way the business operates should be reversed.
Working from home should be the default. Coming in to the office should be the exception, not the rule.
The industry needs to change
There are always going to be those who prefer coming in to the office, and those who prefer working remote. Again, it is a polarizing topic with two distinct ends of the spectrum. However, if coming in to the office is the default and WFH is just an option - no one will end up doing it. The fear of negative judgement and skewed visions of "hard work" will cause everyone to avoid working from home. If you don't believe this, just look at the way people currently treat their PTO in IB. “Don’t use any PTO in your first year” is a common piece of advice, and a toxic reality. Lost opportunity for virtually no gain.
I truly believe there is tremendous value to be found in those many hours in-between comments. Higher rates of learning, more happiness, freedom, fulfillment, lower rates of burn-out, and in the end - better work quality. The industry needs to change - or talent will simply start going elsewhere.
TLDR;
Work from home should be the default. Coming in to the office should be the exception, not the rule. WFH is better because of the misalignment of schedules between junior and senior bankers. People will be happier, healthier, more well-rounded, and overall, more fulfilled with their lives. Those things should be the number one priority for a bank - because in the end, they directly impact work quality and retention.
My only thing is think about how much indirect knowledge/information you absorb while being in the office...perspectives, excel tricks, modeling help, tid bits, etc.
I agree, but I think a lot of those things can be accomplished while working remote as well. Just have to put more effort in to asking good questions/reaching out more. I also think this would be accomplished in those times when you do go in to the office to grind work out with your associate/vp etc.
At the end of the day, you still have the same capabilities to learn from those around you - just might take a little more initiative to get it.
That is my concern...I agree with OP's general sentiment, but as someone who will be headed toward post-MBA assoc role, I don't want to be completely clueless (for very long anyway). For people in my shoes I think there are aspects of being in-office that are invaluable. I can see why those with 3+ years don't need as much facetime.
Also, I kind of miss being up early and getting to my desk at 6:30 or whatever (sales and trading). I do understand I leave much earlier than those in banking though. Just gave me more motivation to grind in general.
I couldn't agree more.
Yeah it's great and all being able to be home etc. but this just isn't a long term reality for the client-driven nature of investment banking. You learn so much in office and the people skills you pick up along the way help craft you into a well rounded MD who can go out and win business. I don't really see that structure changing dramatically in the future. If banking isn't the long term goal, you still need face time in recruiting. I think a hybrid structure is the likely reality but time in seat is still a necessity for 1st and 2nd years.
I don't think client-driven = juniors need to work in cubicle. People skills are learned over a lifetime - weekend events, lunches and just being social/networking in general will develop those skills better than sitting in a office all day. I agree that a hybrid structure is the answer - but just think that preference should be given to remote work, and in office work should be on an as-needed (or as-wanted) basis.
Overall, I think personal development/growth would be greater with this structure. Of course the way things currently isnt a great reflection of my viewpoint - but that's a result of everything being locked down and social activities being non-existent.
In-person growth that you consider (rightfully so) contributes to a kick ass MD isn't a very far-reaching argument given that MAYBE 1-3% of Analysts become MD.
you’re right- I more meant senior professional on either side of the table. At the top it’s a really a relationship game
It’s not solely relevant to MDs, how about Partners in PE/VC, IR professionals, Corp dev managers and the like? There is value in learning soft skills, there is also a lot of learning that occurs from second years teaching first year analysts on the technical front. Also a lot of friendships are developed in the bullpen that continue to be important long after analysts have moved on.
This is not sustainable. How do you build meaningful relationships over the phone and zoom? I think after this is all over, banks should at least make Friday WFH unless there's a meeting.
Also, when do have free time that you get to do all these things? I start working at ~8 AM at home and am essentially working non-stop until 7 PM (no joke, sitting and listening to calls that require attention), aim to get a quick run in (if possible), then am working again until midnight. I (like many others) have worked every weekend since quarantine. My friend at a reputable MM says he tries to get sunlight at least once every 3 days if possible. What the actual fuck?
People have taken this as an opportunity to schedule calls at any given moment. I was on a call and heard an MD from another bank say "We're trapped and it's Friday at 6 PM, we can do this all night if we need to". That's straight up sadistic to all the juniors on his team. Tons of people going to burn out after this.
I think there is going to be a lot of debate over what is "sustainable". I personally think this is sustainable - but I see why people hold the opposite viewpoint. I think a sustainable model that could be agreed upon would be M/F remote, and Tues-Thurs in the office. However, I still think the best model is full freedom to come to the office when you choose. Plenty of other fast paced, high paying industries have proven that it can work - no reason IB should be any different.
In regards to the free time comment - my workload hasn't changed since quarantine - I don't see why it would it would increase. If you were working weekends before, you're likely to continue working weekends while remote. I still work late virtually every night and on the weekends, it just doesnt bother me as much from the comfort of my home.
I think a lot of your perspective has to do with the fact that all of this has been driven off of a pandemic, and people are literally "trapped". I personally think it would look much different if this way of working continued, but the economy/world was opened back up and MD's were back to traveling, and you could go to lunches with co-workers etc.
Just needs to be a balance. 30-40% WFH, 60-70% in office.
It's value adding to all be in the same place physically. It's also value adding to be happier, personally, which WFH helps with. Need a little of both, it's not complicated.
Yes, I agree. I just think the default needs to be WFH, and the decision for the in office/at home split should be up to the employee.
This will just reduce headcount and increase expectations by going full WFH.
Why?
If the industry doesn't change to WFH, where is the talent going to go?
Continue to go into tech and to a lesser extent, consulting.
WFH is "too hard to implement." Diversity is "too hard to recruit for." Technology is "too expensive to invest in." Students aren't completely dumb, and at some point, people get the picture.
Time for banks to stop complaining and start finding solutions.
What have people heard from the banks on this?
Is WFH going to be incorporated in the future? Whether rotating weeks, Friday WFH, employees choice, etc.
Any thoughts on how we may see this September - December this year and beyond?
You are just saying this because looks like your group is inefficient or isn't getting any deals.
Most people's groups are so busy that they have work to do 24/7 and even when working from home, don't have time to do non office acivities. Given this, I don't think wie''lll see a broad industry wide shift bc it will depend on the group and how hard they crush you. My MD will kill me if I don't resopnd to his email in an hour. Can't say I went for a run bc it sounds bad....
I, like you, have been very busy throughout this entire quarantine period - however, there are constantly pockets of time where I am waiting for comments. I know this is something that a very high percentage of analysts experience very regularly - definitely not unique to my experience. Some days the lull between projects/comments is larger than others. Some days there isnt a second to leave my room. That won't change - but when we do have time, there is no reason to be chained to a desk while we wait for seniors to come back with comments/thoughts.
Even then, I am still saying that I/many others simply prefer to work from the comfort of our home. It's much less restrictive and we are equally as capable of doing anything we do from the office from our homes - why is it necessary for in-office work to be the requirement? I haven't seen any drop in productivity/work product in any of the processes I've been involved in through this time period
I actually agree with you. So nice to not be seen all the time and judged if I want to watch a YouTube video for two minutes or even twenty. At my firm, I would ahve to go sit in the toilet and watch it because others would judge me for it. Doesn't work out too well as our bathroom is small with only two toilets and 100 employees in the office so ther's always a line whenever I come out.
Anyways, I could shit and watch YouTube in peace if I were WFH so I agree with you. Hard part is convincing the traidtional seniors.
Don't know about you guys, but I have to connect to my firm's internet through a VPN, and it makes things, such as analyzing large datasets, so much slower... Having the option to pick between WFH and going into the office would be ideal. If I have a heavy dataset to play with, great, I;ll come into the office to do my thing. If I have silly PowerPoint presentations I need to update, I'll just do it from home.
Exactly - having the option for both is the ideal situation and would make everyones life better. That's why I think defaulting to WFH is the best course of action, it's the only way we would actually have the choice of staying at home or coming to the office.
Just treat work days with the same approach as Saturday work - some days you just have to go in to get everything done, other days you can choose to knock it out from your home.
Agreed, as the same with most office roles too. At least implement some sort of WFH policy that would offer more flexibility. It's just a very toxic system that values facetime over efficiency.
Why do we even need analysts working from home in NYC? Offshore team in India probably would be cheaper and work harder
Lol my BB can't even get our back office teams in India to do things correctly, I don't think we're in a hurry to outsource our revenue generating work there.
As if analysts are perfect with their work product?
But this is just an extension of offshore support today. You also get more qualified / experienced people cause they don’t turnover in 2 years with first 9 months in training wheels
INDIA, PLZ FIX. Those kids work so hard lol
Great post!
Your point about MD vs analyst schedule alignment is a problem across the business world. Paul Graham wrote an often-cited essay about it:
http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html
Not necessarily a WFH thing but definitely something seniors need to understand better.
Just read this and then got sucked into a hole of reading several other essays of his on the site... very interesting and engaging stuff and had never seen his writing before, so thanks for passing along!
You best hope not, otherwise an army of 60 Indian kids will take your job and Work from home (in Bangalore) for 300 rupees a month.
Yeah literally...Have always wondered why they they don't get a squad of Indian analysts, so much cheaper and I bet you they don't mind working 90 hour weeks.
You say you’ve always wondered — I used to as well, but did you ever come up with any potential reasons why? I would imagine there are good ones
As much as the work seems to be commoditized, live deal execution, and even some parts of pitch books (such as turning around comments on messaging) can't be done as efficiently in a back office across the other half of the world. And it does take time to train the young kids on presentations, basics of excel, these things are alien to most of them (esp when they recruit from backgrounds such as engineering). You might be able to get the robotic portions of work done more efficiently in terms of time and money- that explains why many such 'rule based' functions of investment banks, such as compliance monitoring, product control, trade book review make for better offshoring.
If it could be done, it would have already been done. What was stopping them? Do they not want to save money on payroll? Note that tech companies which can be more innovative than banks are choosing to sponsor H1B's and bring people on site and pay them US salaries. They are choosing to outsource very specific functions.
There is a firm - I got a call from them last fall - they have junior staff in India that work essentially overnight, so that you come in in the a.m. and models/pitches are updated. Downside is direct communication is hard because of the time difference. But that business is already in place. I'd imagine smaller shops use it, but I think it's a great idea to take some of the pressure off. What I don't like (that could be alleviated with some % of WFH) is that junior staff are expected to work for years on end without proper sleep, etc. You literally have to make yourself physically unwell to do the job. They have to give up relationships, outside interests. This is abusive. Yes, I consider it abusive. At least if you WFH somewhat, you can sleep during downtime. Let people take a nap if you're keeping them up until after midnight consistently.
Most junior bankers live in small flats in big cities and don't have pools they can sit by during the day, and in London where I am, any outdoor activities are usually limited by the shitty British weather.
This, coupled with losing the ability to learn from other bankers by osmosis, and no chance to socialise with other people during the day, is making me dread the thought of working full time from home.
First off - I can completely relate to the OP. I had plenty of days as an analyst where I am doing diddly squat for all intents and purposes all afternoon through dinner knowing what's coming that night. Director or MD may have left around 5 or 6ish, and just as your dinner at the office arrives, they've turned their attention to your work. You get a heavy turn on something and flip it back by 10 or 11. Shortly after that, another turn that keeps you at the office till 2 or 3 AM. I hope for the sake of analysts that a lot of banks have become better at combating this kind of culture. It certainly happens every now and then and is sometimes uncontrollable, but it shouldn't be a recurring behavior/work style.
One thing to consider, and this probably depends a lot on your group and firm, senior bankers have to travel a ton for work. I am not a senior banker (work in PE) but travel quite a bit for work. Can't stress enough how amazing it is when I have weeks where I am not on the road at all. Perks and points are definitely not worth it (especially in PE where a lot of my travels aren't taking me fun, exotic cities). It get's old quick and can be draining after awhile. I can only imagine that get's more annoying once you're older and have a family with kids at home.
That being said, how would it look if your entire junior staff at a bank gets to WFH the overwhelming majority of the time? Okay sure, they're working longer hours than their respective seniors, but analysts receive competitive compensation to reflect the time they put in (relative to other "entry level" jobs out of college). I am sure senior folks at a firm would not be okay with this. They'll see it like this: "I leave my family for 3-4-5 days at a time fairly often and these kids want to work from home? I am paying these 21 year olds $X a year, you better believe I want them in the office working during regular hours at minimum." I'm not saying this kind of thinking is free of flaws, just how I think a conversation like that would play out. These are the same people who think it also makes sense for the core team to be together in the office late at night if there is work required for important projects. One might argue if you need to be staying up that late regularly working, at least get the mercy of being able to do it from the comfort of your own home. They might respond to that with the mindset that if the work is important enough to keep the whole team up that late, then it warrants the core team to be tackling it together at the office. I tend to agree there is some merit to that stance, depending on the deliverable/project. I had select evenings as an analyst where the MD was there with us till 3AM, iterating pages live as they were handed to him piece-meal (he wasn't just creating work for the sake creating work at that hour) and was off on a flight 4 hours later for that high-profile buyside pitch while I was still sleeping at home.
Separately, it only takes a few bad eggs to ruin a more permanent WFH arrangement. Plenty of us are far more efficient working from home. We're just as responsive, quick and accurate with our work. My PE shop is actually talking about keeping this WFH policy enacted for the foreseeable future this year. That's partly because we are a lean team, everyone has been working here for a considerable amount of time (aside from a fresh associate or two), and it would be very difficult to slack off. I can't say the same model is easy to replicate at a large IBD group, especially when you're getting new junior employees on a regular/annual basis. It's easy for people here (those with non-virtual office experience!) to stay disciplined and efficient at home. I can't imagine people sharing that same sentiment when it comes to fresh analysts hitting the desks. I also don't think it's great for junior employees' comprehensive enrichment. They need to pick up the skills of how to answer questions on the spot (in an MD's office not behind their computer), work through disagreements on calculations with their associates (verbally like human beings and not exchanging emails/chat like a CSR trying to resolve an issue). Call me old-fashioned, but these are critical skills that people in their early 20s pick up by being in a professional & physical environment, not at home over email or by phone.
I am not sure how much reform has taken place in banking the last ~4 years when it comes to when you can/can't work from home. I think one tangible goal that banks can strive for is encouraging employees to work from home during non-business hours when they can. That means 2nd year analysts and associates can head home for dinner or shortly after if all they have left that evening is non-live deal work. Might also mean significantly raising the threshold for work that warrants you being called into the office on the weekend. When I was an analyst, WFH was heavily discouraged both on weeknights and weekends; it was moreso only out of absolute necessity if an analyst couldn't be at the office for some reason. I am hoping things have changed for the better since then, and I am sure there is still plenty of room for improvement. I just don't think a straight up WFH policy is in the cards for this industry, at least any time soon.
100% agree OP. Everyone saying MDs will complain about juniors not being there....My MDs are barely in the office - if it wasn't for staffers taking roll, I legit think I could have gotten away with WFH before COVID without a single senior even knowing I wasn't in the office. Are ya'll at banks where the seniors legitimately roam around looking for juniors in person (and not just make phone calls or emails when wanting something)?
Add in the fact Im always on cross border stuff and then the notion of being in the office is VERY stupid.
I'm in a place where I don't need excel tips or pointers. Would love to come in a couple hours a week to socialize, maybe attend a couple key meetings - grab lunch/coffee with mentors and friends, and then head back home to watch netflix/cook/workout/spend time with GF and turn worthless comments from the comfort of my apartment. Basically what I did in college.
If you need more pointers(which I did as a new joiner), or are insecure about facetime, by all means stay in the office.
Wow I’m surprised your staffer actually takes roll. This normal or more firm specific? (Mine doesn’t, but it’s small enough that we would probably just notice)
Many industries are claiming that covid has been the catalyst to start the inevitable transformative change in their world. Change that was going to / had to happen has just been accelerated dramatically.
I saw an interview with the CEO of PNC. He was talking about digital transformation and the challenges of getting seniors comfortable with digital banking vs, branch banking. He stated covid forced seniors in to digital and he feels many will never go back. Once they're comfortable with it, why would they? Thinks they accelerated their digital footprint by ten yrs in two months.
This is happening in many industries. How many people will simply not fly to meetings that are not considered mission critical in the new world? Plenty of them.
Like everything else, IB needs to modernize and become more efficient. It's too easy to say, "We can't, this is a service / relationship business, etc..." It's all BS. Your clients will be happy to no always meet in person and nobody (other than maybe your MD) gives a crap about the minutia in your pitch book that needed a last minute edit. Trust me, they don't even look at it.
IB needs a major overhaul and this may be the perfect time.
this
I think there’s a way to reach a balance between both sides of the coin: designate specific days of the week as WFH.
For example... Everyone comes to the office Mon & Wed-Friday, but WFH Tuesday. by designating when ppl should come to the office, you maximize the collaboration potential of those dates (eg picking up modelling tips, excel tips, and other tid-bits as others mentioned) while normalizing WFH through the designated day(s) and slightly reducing burnout, as others described.
Of course, having everyone come to the office on the same day doesn’t help with physical distancing, so this is an idea for the post-covid world.
How realistic or beneficial do you think this could be vs what the thread author suggested?
In corp strategy now and my team does this on Fridays. You only show up in person if there's some important meetings / work that would be easier to tackle in person. I really think it boosts morale and tbh made COVID-19 era of WFH super easy since we were doing it once a week anyway before and senior people were used to best practices of using Teams and all.
I think it would be a great start. In order to change it takes trust and results. Change is hard. Most will fight it as they're rooted in their "we did it, you have to do it" world. But the world changes. I used to do a lot of things that I know longer need to do. Much of it is a control mechanism. They need to control to validate themselves and because they don't trust the alternative. (not they don't trust you, just a new way of doing things). If they explore it and gain trust, it will change quickly.
Have many SENIOR exec friends in a variety of industries. You'd be amazed at how many of them admit WFH has actually gone quite well and in many cases made their businesses even more productive, efficient. To the point where several will keep that option out there permanently.
One guy even made a great suggestion riffing on the digital bank example. He said many branches will shutter as more go digital. Those spaces could be rented out for meetings, joint work opportunities where you have team members living in a certain area. Why make them come in to the office and fight traffic if there is a local, professional space available with a conference room, white boards, etc.
Pretty clever. Of course he's a consultant so he thinks in terms of these things.The banks could still own the RE and rent by the hour for a profit in a different revenue area or they could sell to a Regis type who manages these thousands of branches all over the country / world. And of course the bank could finance the sales.
In a capitalist society, innovation wins! IB will realize that at some point.
I like this idea. I think having a designated WFH day, or perhaps making a rotating schedule with different teams is a good step in the right direction. Couple that with enforcing stricter weekend work boundaries, and the IB lifestyle will be much less villainized.
Motivation is an issue for me personally. but then again im super easily distracted and procrastinate
Look WFH is great at night when seniors leave but I really think having the in-office experience of building camaraderie with fellow juniors and learning to navigate politics etc is not something which should be passed on.
Though I will add some of my best connections and friendships have been late night in the office with other analysts. Not saying its the best approach but it would have fundamentally changed my experience for the worse if I was just working alone in my apartment
Anecdotally, incoming SA here and was recently speaking to some senior members of my group for the summer. They said that going forward, they expect WFH will become much more common/acceptable, as senior folks were surprised how productive everyone was able to be while WFH. This group said they are not at all rushing the return to the office and expect that, by the time I would start next year (summer 2021), they expect it will be completely acceptable to WFH for at least a few days a week. We'll see if this holds up when the world goes back to normal, but seems like some banks agree with you...
EB or BB? Sadly there are no plans to continue WFH at my bank atleast when things open back up (except weekends).
I think people are missing the glaring fact that banks can hire two people for one role, and split the work into shifts. They'd get better output from two people. You'd get paid half.
Always wondered why they don't do this in office anyway.
they’d be missing out on a whole lot of talent because a lot of the draw is the compensation
i'm not sure they'd miss out on talent. a lot of capable people that don't get in to IB go in to other industries and are successful there. plenty of talent in top 50 schools.
100% Agreed!!
I have said this multiple times here - the pay is what it is because you are literally doing 2 jobs.
I think some like the idea of how much you can learn in a short period of time by just putting your nose to the grindstone for a few years. By doing mass repetitions. But if you consider spending hours every day doing nothing while waiting for revisions, they are kind of paying people to sit around.
Allowing people to WFH when they need a break and simply need flexibility to be human would be a big improvement.
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