Why are bankers uniquely incapable of pushing back against clients?
It seems like so many of the complaints people have about this industry - from the ridiculous hours to the abusive seniors - all come down to the client advisory nature of the business. Everything always goes back to this - your associate yells at you to do something because they’re getting yelled at by the VP, getting yelled at by the Director, etc… all the way to the Partner who’s getting yelled at by the client.
Yet remarkably, this seems to be uniquely bad in banking. We are dealing with the SAME companies as consultants, lawyers, accountants, etc. I understand that lots of these people work super hard as well, but the same deeply entrenched culture of sucking your client’s dicks at the expense of your employees’ well-being just don’t seem to exist to the same extent.
Is there honestly anything particularly intrinsic to banking that makes the client demands so much more difficult to push back on? Consultants are able to ensure protected weekends because if some bullshit request comes in on a Friday night, a senior will just simply respond saying they can get to it next week. The same thing happens in banking and it becomes an all-hands fire drill just because some client had a random one-off question about where a number came from.
I’m just ranting here as I’m turning live comments on my “protected saturday” but will this nonsensical norm ever change? I don’t buy the competitive argument either - I highly doubt that if a client is getting minor pushback from one bank that they’ll jump to another bank. At the end of the day it’s not the weekend fire drills that create value and generate fees, it’s the expertise of the seniors. What will it take, if anything at all?
We (the advisors) get way bigger fees than consultants, lawyers, and accountants in a transaction. That comes with expectations. MDs often pitch the "we are available 24/7" narrative to clients for a reason. It's also a vicious cycle because everyone knows we get crushed anyways, so they don't really have any regard for our time.
Sure but MBB retainers can sometimes be in the high tens of millions sometimes for occasional “strategic overview” decks lol - if anything an accountant is mission critical to a deal because you literally need a QoE, whereas nobody gives a flying fuck about the infinite pages of appendix analyses a banker will draft up for shits and giggles
Dude no company with an ounce of talent or self respect is paying MBB “tens of millions” for a strategy deck unless it involves highly terrible shit like opioid conflict that got McKinsey in trouble
Uh no, our fund just paid low six figures for an entire bain team of 10 people to work non-stop for a 2 week due diligence sprint.
I think they actually lost money on that one.
“This is why we get paid.” - My MD on Saturday at 11pm in the office
Sad as it may be, this is a sales job at the end of the day. Your Md is there to bring business and keep clients happy.
If an MD pushes back, there’s 10 other banks that would take the deal in an instant and overwork their analysts if they have to.
But this doesn't explain why banking hours are worse than consulting, law, accounting, etc. that OP mentioned. Those are all sales jobs and there are other firms who can take the deal by working harder too, yet they don't.
1 - Law and Accounting (at least QofE) is billed by the hour so you pay if “they work harder” so you’re off
2 - MBB does get paid a fraction of what an M&A advisor gets paid and there are just not nearly the competition to win consulting mandates as m&a advisory mandate since you’re choosing from 3 (for most large clients)
3 - clients are paying for “white glove” 24/7 service when they hire a bank, which as you move up, you will see that they are well aware of. They want and expect the all-nighters from the juniors, some of the F500 clients seem to make it a sport ruining bankers’ lives.
4 - most engagement letters on buyside mandates aren’t signed until the deal is about to announce so MDs want to deliver as much work as possible to help negotiate fee
Prisoner's dilemma of promising to overwork your employees
2 points:
It’s a long winded way of saying, I think the Investment banking skill set is so valuable, the industry suffers horribly from brain drain with the most talented individuals leaving. Again, it’s not always true and there are plenty of brilliant bankers or people that are in the industry because they like it, but I think the majority are in it for the salary and are often post MBA individuals trying to payoff their MBA loans, or workers who are so surprised they are getting paid a banker’s salary that they are afraid to leave because they think they would fail.
Very well said, thanks for sharing. +1SB
Maybe it's ineffective, but if MDs start pushing back on deliverables, it'll just add to the workflow (the work still needs to get done, and there's like new engagements just around the corner).
Banking is extremely commoditized, yet as lucrative as ever. Easiest way to differentiate is to run through walls.
For a founder owned business, guy has billions of his family fortune at stake. For CEO of a public company, it’s hundred of millions of his net worth tied up. We, mere individuals worth hundreds of thousands or few millions can’t get in the middle of that stress and say let’s follow up Wednesday after Chad is done partying this weekend. We don’t pay Chad $225K or whatever we pay now out of college to party
I thought the point of OP's questions is that sometimes bankers get questions that clearly add no value to the transaction and won't help the client sell for a higher price, yet seniors are still unwilling to push back.
Again - better of doing what client wants than push back on stuff for Chad’s Saturday night off. Yes it may not create true value, but not the battle worth picking against a founder / CEO. It’s really all about client relationship management
Consultants and lawyers are paid for the work they do when they do it. Bankers don’t work on retainer, they get paid when a deal happens and they need to make sure they’re the bank the company hires when they eventually transact so there’s an immense pressure to be better aka faster.
Let my people go.
From banker perspective, we only get paid if a deal closes, so might as well do anything that might incrementally improve chances.
From client perspective, I think the higher fees point is the right one.
money's money
"We are dealing with the SAME companies as consultants, lawyers, accountants, etc. I understand that lots of these people work super hard as well, but the same deeply entrenched culture of sucking your client's dicks at the expense of your employees' well-being just don't seem to exist to the same extent."
Wouldn't really say this. Law is probably worse than banking and there are some bad consulting / accounting cultures
Also as someone mentioned you are being paid for your availability. Clients want you to be available and if you aren't they will hire someone else
In my experience, Protected Saturdays only work if senior leadership is bought in and has controls in place (i.e, senior bankers comp is at stake). I worked at one of the top UMM firms with a Saturday policy and worked 1 Saturday over two years because everyone bought into the policy. Senior bankers had no problem pushing back and letting clients know from the onset that we did not work on Saturdays.
To keep ARR (Average Recurring Revenue) high and CAC (Cost of Acquisition) low. You don't need to pitch every single time once the clients trust you -- and they always come to you.
Very interesting question posed by OP. Ultimately banking is a sales game. However, real sales - not throwing it all up against the wall to see what sticks - is about uncovering needs, solving problems, and managing expectations. Unless banking is the ultimate commoditized sale (which it may be, I don't know), a real problem is that senior bankers have never really learned how to professionally sell. They rise through the ranks without ever having to ask for a check prior to becoming senior. And their whole experience on the way up is this frantic pace environment. It's funny because REAL sales people who sell multimillion and sometimes billions of dollars of X (think enterprise data networks including mainframes, jet planes, massive enterprise software systems, you name it) are in control of, not controlled by the situation. It's like the whole banking system should take sales training 101 or go through the IBM / Xerox sales training program for a few months. When you're insecure and provide little value (because you are commoditized - actually the definition of ) you jump at everything and control nothing, other than your subordinates.
This is 100% accurate. Great take.
Rick always dropping facts!!!
As the rare Sales/BD guy turned IB (Thanks MBA), I absolutely see it. In general, it feels that with the exception of the true rainmakers, the average MD needs to up their game by an order of magnitude, when sales are concerned.
100% correct. One of the biggest reasons I left IB. You spend 6 years as an over glorified secretary just to be shoved into a sales role with 0 management or sales experience.
We are dealing with the SAME companies as consultants, lawyers, accountants, etc. I understand that lots of these people work super hard as well, but the same deeply entrenched culture of sucking your client's dicks at the expense of your employees' well-being just don't seem to exist to the same extent.
I think this is demonstrably untrue, at least in law. For example, in the final phases of deal execution, principals will negotiate commercial points until late into the evening and expect the lawyers to have vast suites of docs turned overnight, ready for review first thing in the AM. The difference between doing this as a law associate and being an IBD analyst is that what you are doing actually matters and could cost your firm (or their PI insurers) millions if you fuck it up. (See Matt Levine's story on Apollo, Caesars and the $450 MM "and" https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2014-05-13/caesars-and-the-4…).
Can someone with creds please copy/paste the article for the broke bois in the room?
Trust me, there are counterparties in finance that get fucked by last second requests and do not get paid for it. When something is needed last second, do you think accountants and lawyers can just go away from their keyboards? There are so many law firms and accounting companies that they can be easily replaced by another counter-party, especially accountants.
Not every group is like the one you're in, which is why you need to find a group that respects work-life balance. Sadly, this is very hard to do.
Simple explanation. Advisory is a highly commoditized business based majorly around the relationships of senior bankers. If you want to retain a client, you will follow their demands or the bank across the street will, maybe even at a discounted fee.
Two other aspects of banking that contribute to this culture: 1) There is no intellectual property. That's not to say that there aren't lots of smart people (there are), but you can't patent anything. So that great idea you have, even if it is applicable to other clients/deals? Everyone else can and will copy it immediately. The annuity value is close to zero. And 2) The switching costs (for clients) are very low, and in some cases are actually switching benefits. Clients need multiple banks for credit and research coverage, among other things, so it benefits them to spread higher margin business around.
Put yourself in the client’s shoes. You’re charging a massive amount of money. A business someone spent decades of eating shit to build is giving you a very real chunk at exit.
The same dynamic does not apply for law or other hired guns. Accountants, even tax lawyers, are way way less than m&a…
Lots of noise up above. Simple answer: bankers are paid success fees. Everyone else is paid by the hour. We bankers are bitchs, not necessarily for the sake of the clients, but for the sake of getting the deal done.
As someone that was in Banking and is now in Consulting specific to M&A, I can safely say that if a client calls you on the weekend or there is immediate work, then there are no 'protected weekends' or ability to push back. Other firms may treat this differently, but ours is an on-call mentality. Also, to the points around billable hours/paid by the hour, there are countless hours Consultants put into projects that are never billed. Typically clients have a weekly run rate and if you go beyond that for whatever reason, prepare for all hell to break loose.
With that said, Bankers get it way worse. Not even debatable.
Just my two cents.
In my view, and most already mentioned:
Commoditised and competed biz
Paid for success (Vs hour or report)
Paid to run the show (not only for deep knowledge), hwatever that entails
(Self inflicted?) Increase in additional (relevant/necessary?) Work around true advice and efficient process management (all inclusive)
...a (bad) analogy to an "all you can eat" place. You are not necessarily paying for the gourmet quality of the food, but for the bulk. If good food, nice, but not the main objective.
Eum vitae harum totam libero culpa. Maiores est repudiandae rerum possimus incidunt ducimus.
Ut nulla qui tempora vel vero. Ut repudiandae vero soluta et. Saepe alias veritatis dolor. Quos facere voluptas ipsam.
Voluptatem accusantium similique odit omnis et eius. Est minus doloremque atque consectetur. A inventore veritatis ut deserunt.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Eveniet aperiam nihil aspernatur quam. Numquam nam sit adipisci quisquam. Ullam in culpa hic qui deleniti.
Eaque ut vero consequatur at quaerat est. Totam ab voluptas sapiente nesciunt quia sint consequatur doloremque. Qui sequi iste repudiandae impedit neque aut et. Eius asperiores dicta qui qui sed. Voluptatem et rerum eum.
Blanditiis deserunt explicabo deleniti. Adipisci repellat sit consequatur. Sit adipisci voluptas quidem explicabo officiis omnis.
Consequuntur eum optio dolor ipsam numquam ipsam dicta. Commodi qui non ut voluptatibus aut omnis. A itaque aut tempora eos qui impedit.