So, everyone is a prestige whore in some way or another. Let's be honest. For every 1 person who can afford to pay cash for an S500 AMG but drives a Prius for the mileage, there are 100 million people who finance a car they can't really afford. The same applies to school - How many people take the full ride to State when they got into Harvard with no financial aid? Probably very, very few.
My point here is this; prestige matters.
But why?
I think, ultimately, people care about prestige, especially at the school level, because it provides you with opportunities. A Harvard trained English major can get a job at an investment bank, when a non-target English major is either stuck paying out the nose for a masters to be a teacher, or doing social media for their high school (hyperbole for effect).
An Internal Problem
Some people view this as a privilege thing, or injustice, or whatever you want to call it. The Haves vs the Have Nots. I think this perspective, especially seen in people who are obsessed with searching for examples of those with non-traditional backgrounds who have cracked the silk barrier, looks externally for the solution to an internal problem.
The Early Track
High finance jobs hire from prestigious schools for multiple reasons, but the main one is the quality of the candidate (eye roll). Captain Obvious here, but hear me out. You don't hire someone from a target because they went to a target. You hire someone from a target because they got into a target, and continued to perform. Getting into a target school says something about discipline, especially when most high school students are too busy trying to get laid or too undisciplined to put in the work. There are lots of other factors at play, but what I'm getting at here is the fast track isn't the fast track, its just the early track. Were you disciplined enough to get into a top 5 undergrad? Congrats, you're 4 years ahead of the majority of people. Were you disciplined enough to graduate Cum Laude? Congrats, you're light years ahead of some. Were you savvy enough to network and land a job at the top of your field, whatever it may be? You did it, but you're just scratching the surface.
The Drive to Succeed
Now, were you unable to do these things? Well, every tick on your background sets you back. Do you have gaps, did you go to a non-target, did you get a shitty GPA, etc etc etc. So you're wondering why no one with your background is an investment banker? Well there are minimal job openings, and it's incredibly competitive, so why would they hire someone like you? Most people who get these jobs have already established a track record of excellence that spans close to a decade, and they have something else that is driving them to succeed. And, 99,999 times of out 100,000, someone with your background probably isn't going to figure it out or make the effort if they do.
Stop Looking for Validation
So why does this matter? It matters because the people searching for others with non-traditional backgrounds are looking for validation, or the easy way. Everyone seeks validation at some point, but this is not the time. Someone with a non-traditional background didn't achieve success because they got lucky or because they got a chance that was handed to them when they asked nicely, they excelled because they figured out what needed to be done and set off to do it.
So you have to go Big 4 audit and bust it for 3 years, transition to TAS, study like a maniac for the GMAT, kill yourself networking to get into an M7 and compete for a job at smaller MM Banks or PE firms or Advisory shops because you still aren't quite there.
Well guess what, you figured it out before your senior year in college, and by my count, it's been 7 years of grinding. Someone who graduated at the top of their class from a target had already been grinding for 8 years from high school through undergrad.
Keep Grinding
So what are you going to do? Is this when you give up and blame the system, or is this when you realize you're an associate at a small shop and you're finally in the industry, so you step on the gas even harder? Hone your skills, keep grinding, and now, despite a different background, you have the experience and the hustle to make the next jump somewhere else. Maybe you stay put, make VP then MD and pull in a fuck ton of money because you've been working your ass off for over a decade now and you're getting a reputation in your space. So maybe you only make high 6 or 7 figures compared to 8, cry about it.
Is that not good enough because you didn't make it to GS SSG or BX HeMan Woman Haters Club or fuckin' Citadel as a PM? What the fuck? Hell, maybe you love Big 4 accounting and you never take the next step and you make partner at a massive firm and pull in a big salary with great job security and that's that. Or you can quit in your twenties and go sell fuckin' insurance because, whatever, Commerce Insurance responded to your application and made you an offer.
You and a Machete
Everyone is so concerned with making sure there is a path laid out for them, and people just assume prestige is the qualifier. Its an indicator, not a rite. There is no path - only you and a machete, and the sooner you pick it up and start hacking in the right direction, the sooner you'll get somewhere.
TL;DR - you gotta earn it.
#2 top discussion of 2018
I think this mostly hits it on the head. Overall, there are exceptions and for sure disadvantages, but at the end of the day, we can only do the best with what we have
Absolutely. I didn't want to get into bloodlines or the socio-economic stuff but it certainly plays a large factor, especially early on. Overall the point is to make the best of your own situation and work as hard as you can, because there is no career path that allows you to be lazy and immensely successful, no matter how hard you search for it on a forum. I am definitely not a traditional background person and I'm finishing up school, but I'm also not going to scour the web searching for validation that I can make it, or give up when I don't find it. Will I make less money initially than someone who goes right into the front office? You bet. Have I already put myself at a disadvantage for the rest of my career? Most likely, but so what.
Its like the perfect 10 at the bar, are you going to not approach her because you think shes out of your league, or are you going to let her decide? There's more than one smoke bomb out there, but you're not fucking any of them if you don't make the effort.
We are creatures of an evolutionary process. At some point, prestige became a proxy signal for mating fitness.
There are some interesting points. Here's some things I wanted to point out:
This idea that all people who got into a target busted ass through high school is not entirely true. I know of plenty of people who benefited from legacy and were able to get into a target without putting in much work. On the flip side, I know people who worked their asses off but were simply drowned out in the sea of competition. Admissions for top schools has become somewhat of a shitshow, and there's no guarantee that any particular set of grades, test scores, ECs, etc. will get you in.
You cannot discount the family background factor. IB has become competitive enough that if you are not preparing for it by the beginning of your sophomore year (at the latest), you odds of getting in drop dramatically. Most of the kids who have found out about investment banking did so because they have family connections in the industry. This is the case at practically all targets and semi-targets.
We need to put to rest any talk of people earning high 6 figures, 7 figures, or 8 figures in finance. This is the domain of a very exceptional few. You need an extraordinary amount of skill, background, connections, and luck to reach that level, and even if you have all of those four things in abundance, you still might not make it.
My points above don't discount the fact that if you have the will and determination to get into IB, it can definitely be done. However, hustling and doing well in school may not be enough to get in, and there are people who have gotten in without putting even half the amount of effort that their peers have.
This x1000.
Prestige is used as a crude indicator of intelligence and ability when in reality there are plenty of kids who do, in fact, "luck into" Ivy League schools and even "prestigious" jobs. One should always work as hard as possible and aim for the stars so to speak, even if they weren't "born into the right family" because doing so maximizes one's chance at success. But do not discount the role arbitrary luck (being born into wealth, being physically attractive, being naturally charismatic/likable) plays in the lives of many "successful" people.
I personally compare myself to my peers, not to people born in the Hamptons to white-collar parents making over 500k/year. Your ultimate success depends on where you started from and how far you've made it from that point. Many want to pat themselves on the back for a home run when they started on third base to begin with.
Ultimately, most people, young and old, don’t realize what it takes to “compete.” Most people don’t have an innate understanding about getting into a “target” school or an understanding of how competitive the job market is; in fact, most kids are told: “Employers just want to see that you’re trainable.” Success is built on momentum, the more “wins” you have under your belt, the easier it is to obtain more. You do that by building your pedigree, which starts with test scores, brand names on your resume and generally ends with your performance in various roles/job titles.
I don’t like your initial examples; financial stupidity is still financial stupidity, irrespective of the “brand name” of the school or car. I’d rather not be a freshly minted college grad with an English degree from Harvard and $250k in student debt, especially in the pursuit of a highly unlikely IB position. You’d feel that cluster-fuck for the rest of your life.
Prestige matters. That's why HYP get into IB and state-schoolers don't.
Plain and simple.
I swear to God this forum is made up almost entirely of state schoolers wondering why their 3.5 GPA from UF isn't enough to land them a job at Goldman Sachs
As a longtime Mercedes owner (SL), there's no such thing as an "S500 AMG". (unless you're driving a knockoff). "Mercedes AMG" the new monicker as of 2016 only produces 2 S-Classe variants- the S63 (and very very rare S65). The vanilla model is the S550. Keep up with the times young (old?) man.
As for your argument, I'd say it's largely true of the "aspiring wealthy". The really really rich folks have enough trouble trying to HIDE their assets.
Nothing says "150k a year with no personality" like knowing a lot about Mercedes/BMW/Audi.
People in this strange world mistake "target schools" and "prestige BBs" for the real world. It isn't. Go get a loan and open a small business and grow it into a larger business and go from there. That's what drives our economy. Too many smart kids obsessed with Wall Street - there are other paths.
The prestige of your university doesn't really matter at all. What matters is your intellectual horsepower, which most Ivy Leaguers (and similar) possess in abundance.
https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2011/03/01/…
Dale and Krueger concluded that students, who were accepted into elite schools, but went to less selective institutions, earned salaries just as high as Ivy League grads. For instance, if a teenager gained entry to Harvard, but ended up attending Penn State, his or her salary prospects would be the same.
In the pair's newest study, the findings are even more amazing. Applicants, who shared similar high SAT scores with Ivy League applicants could have been rejected from the elite schools that they applied to and yet they still enjoyed similar average salaries as the graduates from elite schools. In the study, the better predictor of earnings was the average SAT scores of the most selective school a teenager applied to and not the typical scores of the institution the student attended.
In other words, intelligent people succeed regardless of what school they attend. The Ivy Leagues don't produce talent--they recruit it. And talent almost always rises to the top.
I had a "non-traditional" upbringing relative to most finance guys and I didn't give a damn about anything (except football and girls) in high school and didn't even want to go to college. I started off at a community college part-time (worked full time in a factory) before transferring to a directional state school and getting an accounting degree. I started in public accounting and through a long series of winding moves (including three cities and three firms) I'm now about to start my first role on the buy side with a CFA Charter and CPA in hand.
So I agree with what @real_Skankhunt42" posted here. If the innate intellectual horsepower is there (and let's be honest, finance isn't rocket science) then it comes down to all the decisions you make over time, and you can gain a lot of ground.
I'm 30 now and I see guys on this forum who are still in college asking whether it's "too late" because they missed recruiting for some summer internship in IB. No, it's not too late. Not even close. I didn't even know what "investment banking" was when I graduated from a very good accounting program and joined a big CPA firm as an auditor, but here I am. Land a front-office (revenue generating) role in anything relevant--audit, consulting, transactions, etc.--and then go from there. Network hard. Pass a few CFA exams. Move to NYC, Chicago, etc. Learn everything you can from this site.
Again, neither of my parents finished college (actually, my mother didn't even go) and I graduated high school with a 2.3 GPA, and I made plenty of missteps along my path in this industry. That's how life works.
One thing I can tell you is that if you actually like finance---like you really think it's interesting and you're not just in it for money---that will shine through. It will shine in your networking, your interviews, the questions you ask, everything. And people will be much more willing to help because they will recognize that you really want to do the job and earn the salary rather than have the job and receive the salary.
Target school people make good employees - especially C-level executives. Nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean that they are cut out to be billionaires. If you see the list below, more than 53% of the people on this list did not go to target schools.
https://www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/#version:static
Ecole polytechnique is definitely a top target bro... get your rankings right
NA is also highly regarded, get your shit right bro
"Comparison is the thief of joy." - Teddy Roosevelt
Am I the only one on here that doesn't consider studying for tests, doing your homework, and participating in fun activities such as clubs and sports as "hard work"?
I just don't find getting A's in high school and doing a bunch of clubs and activities all that impressive, especially if it's not even the student pushing for this but their well-educated parents who have planned every step of their life and have paid for a dozen SAT prep courses.
Completely agree. It always saddens me when I see parents posting online for their kids.
"Jimmy is such a smart boy and needs to go to college! What schools would be best for him? He likes cars and baseball, can't function in 70 degree temperature, and NEEDS to have a Chick Fil A AND a Five Guys on campus. This is non-negotiable."
"Jennifer needs a summer internship. She wants to work as the Incoming Aspiring Editor-in-Chief at Vogue or be an Instagram influencer chilling in Bali. Pls advise. Thanks!"
With some hustle, Googling, and knowledge of/desire to do whatever it is you want to do, in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases, the kids above can find something better than what their parents find for them (barring your parents being Warren Buffet or something), because the motivation will come from within. Everything done by parents like the ones in my and NoEquityResearch's posts is just for bragging rights when it comes to other parents.
That was my path. Keep your head down and WORK. More importantly though, complement your hard work with personality. Have opinions on deals / handle pressure with a smile / make people laugh at happy hour (with you, not at you; stay 1-2 drinks behind your MDs).
Good luck.
Or study computer science and make 300k at Citadel at yr1, and start your own company at yr5 without getting caught in the rat race...prestige shaming is like the faster rats laughing at the slower rats for not running as fast when really all of them should be thinking about getting out of the race altogether