Better cheat code: diversity or target ?
Curious what you all think is an easier path to break into IB from the standpoint of relying on either being a diversity hire or a target hire.
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I’ll bite. Diversity. You can go to a mid school and be diversity and end up with a top offer. Going to a target sets the ceiling higher but you’re gonna have to inevitably grind super hard.
the real cheat code is having both and also being nepotism. Unstoppable force right there
Yes.
Nepotism > Ultra-elite circle at target (“old boys club”) > “normal” diversity at decent school > completely unhooked student at target
The only correct order
Can confirm that connections are extremely powerful. I got an internship in small-cap VC due to a family connection. I sent across my CV and cover letter and the VC fund then called me up and gave me an intro to the firm. I had done an internship in IB before so they thought they didn't even need to interview me lol. The guy that hired me at the VC fund quit before I started but I performed very well during my internship the managing partner was very happy with my work.
I told the managing partner about my career plans and he gave me a very strong recommendation to a group head at a US BB. I had a couple of meetings with the group head and he pushed for me throughout the recruitment process for a summer internship. I got great reviews during the internship and ended up with a full-time offer in the same group.
With that said, connections are very powerful and people are often very willing to help you out if you ask for it. Moreover, I think that you need to perform and have a strong CV regardless of connections if you're gonna make it in the long term. For example, I doubt that connections will get a stupid guy with no experience and a 3.0 GPA from a non-target into GS. More likely, you have 2,000 kids with identical CVs (good grades, target school, member of investment club, prior internship in finance). When you have 2,000 nearly identical applications, of course you're gonna call the guy who already knows half the team in for an interview.
When it comes to diversity I think it's a bit different because they are not just given an advantage over people with very similar backgrounds. Instead, they are held to much lower standards. You will see diversity candidates with mediocre grades coming from total non-targets with 0 previously displayed interest in finance going straight to top BBs and PE firms. Connections can give you a helping hand after you've put in a lot of work yourself. Diversity will carry you all the way.
Female crushes all of them.
I don’t believe diversity is a cheat code, and it depends on what you classify as true diversity. At a BB that heavily promotes diversity recruiting. Most of our diversity hires are women. Each group only takes 1-2 minorities in a SA class. Much larger percentage of target hires.
Lol this is so untrue. Classes are mostly diversity these days. If you're a white male at a target it will still be an extremely hard grind to get an offer.
ngmi
The fact that you can stack diversity with target makes Diversity>>>
Grow up. You can't change either for your own situation so quit bitching about how 'easy' others supposedly have it
So it's okay to complain about nepotism but not diversity?
Who made that distinction?
But to play your game, I'll say yes. One helps you get a job, the other is your identity - for good and bad, and you can't change or hide it.
Actually, I know an even better cheat code.
Lie that you go to Harvard and get Plastic Surgery to look ethnic!
This question is so fucking stupid and as a fellow prospect I'd hate to work with you.
Target school. It's not even close. DEI moves the needle a few basis points in marginal cases but is nowhere close to being the massive, and I mean massive, edge that target recruiting is.
a few thousand basis points
Target.
Diversity or not (it helps a shit let’s be honest) if you can’t get into ib as a non diversity regardless even if you go to a non-target then it’s most likely cause something is off with you.
I think if you assume a semi target as a baseline, and you control for things like student ability and environment (e.g. going to a target you'll be surrounded by more driven people), I would say a diverse semi-target beats out a non diverse target.
I'm sure you could run the numbers on this. If we take for example banks selecting for 50/50 split analyst classes and assume only 20% of people applying are female (you could argue its less) then already there's 4x better odds for females. Now if you compare that to semi target vs target placement, I'm pretty sure targets don't have 4x as much placement than semis.
And this is before even throwing in URMs into the mix. Going off the napkin math above, you could probably estimate black females have a >8x better chance than an equal non diverse candidate.
Now these are far better odds than even attending a HYPS.
I’d like to add this completely disregards interview performance
Are you making the assumption that the interview will be the same process with the same questions and the same weight for both diversity and target interviews?
Background: I do both graduate and diversity recruitment at my firm.
Diversity or being female is by far the biggest advantage you can have. Most classes I've seen over the past few years are nearly all diversity or female. With the white guys being exceptional because that's the only way they get roles.
There are many juniors at my bank that simply wouldn't have their role if they were white or male. Just a sad fact.
so a sincere question for you: does it ever get better? I have no connection to finance and am a straight white male. I grinded my ass off from public school to get to a top target, which everyone said was impossible. I got a BB internship (after a fuck load of BS and seeing way less qualified kids get better offers), and now apparently it’s gonna be the same shit for on-cycle and B-school.
Honest question, at what point does talent actually become the top priority, if ever?
Target the smaller firms or start your own shop one day. Can still make a killing and do not have to deal with the ethics BS.
Just persevere.
Your hard work and hunger will get rewarded by someone.
I find there is less diversity focus on lateral hires. So perhaps look at getting into a tier 2 and then grinding up.
Once you get to the higher echelons like senior VP and above, you'll soon find many of the diversity passengers fall away.
When you start your own business
I hope SCOTUS sees this post.
arent the senior guys in the PE firms acutely aware of this bs, and if so, why wouldn’t they along with LPs push for pure meritocracy if it means they can make more money? i don’t understand how this whole esg movement isn’t seen as a massive market inefficiency
As a diversity (already preparing for the MS storm), it is definitely a cheat code, but is probably comparable / only marginally better than OCR at target schools. Banks essentially hold spots in first round interviews for you, disregarding networking, similar to OCR. The interviews are easier and the bar is lower, but I think the technical bar might be similar to a history major from Harvard (although, you can definitely argue the Harvard history major had to work harder to get in than the person who was just born black/female). IMO comparable, both are very helpful in recruiting as it will eliminate a lot of the grindy networking needed to get to a first round.
Thanks for being honest. Wish there could be moser discussion like this without people feeling offended.
i’m nondiverse at top target and me and all my buddies still had to network everywhere for first rounds…think the target OCR no networking thing is a bit outdated/a misnomer. Sure, there’s 20 superday spots, but there’s also 400 kids applying, and you won’t get anywhere without networking, especially when 300 of those 400 help the bank hit its quotas
Fair enough, there is a generally smarter and more prepared talent pool competing for those target spots. Diversity is cheat code, whereas maybe being at a target is just a power up.
“Diversity student” here who went through SA recruiting for BB and MF, and a medley of other opportunities along the way; I can candidly say that it helps A LOT. There’s separate, earlier recruiting pipelines, which I would recommend utilizing, if you can.
That being said, I disagree with the blanket sentiment that “most diversity candidates are under-qualified.” Firms hire people who can adequately do the work. If they don’t, most people will be out sooner rather than later.
Furthermore, I do not think that being a “diverse candidate” is some magic potion that will get you a job - which is exactly how a large portion of people see it. At least in my case, there were some cultural differences between my household & your typical white, middle-class, suburban American household. Not making excuses for myself, as in the grand scheme of things, it wasn’t really a big deal at all. I just think it’s something that is hardly ever addressed, but is still an important thing in the lives of certain people.
As for the future outlook of everything, following SCOTUS’ decision, it would be pretty nice if people lay off the “oh hey, you’re diversity, right.” Even if it is spoken in a complementary context, it’s fairly backhanded. As someone who played at a very high level in a couple of sports, it’s similar to when someone says “wow you’re so athletic,” unintentionally undermining your work ethic, time in the gym, practicing technique, & just working on your craft.
I apologize for the rant, as it didn’t really have clear narrative / main point. Just wished to share some of my thoughts, & appreciated the transparency of others before me in the thread.
Best of luck to diversity, non-diversity, target, non-target, & wherever you “fit.” At the end of the day, we’re all just trying to find our way.
Cheers!
It’s impossible to lay off the assumption that diversity is likely to be less qualified because on average it is very much true.
Which is why it hurts the qualified but that are also diversity candidates.
With all due respect, like many monkeys on here. You have an opinion based on very little actual experience.
You dont have years at multiple banks and have seen hundreds of different diversity candidates interview and do their analyst years.
I get your rant but that's all it is, brutal but true. Its not founded in any sort of experience.
A quota system of any kind will always affect performance and those who have a lower bar of entry will generally on the whole be a lower standard.
It’s simple logic dude. You can’t give big advantages to a group of people in a competitive process (admissions) and then assume that the successful members of that group are as qualified as the successful members of other groups. Doesn’t compute, never will.
Can you touch on how being diversity helped in MF / general PE recruiting? It seems that the diversity pipelines aren’t as clear for PE roles. Thx!
One you can control (to an extent), the other you can’t. Simple as that.
Fag
Diversity is going to be screwed with the new AA ruling. Bunch of companies are pulling back on corporate DEI now too. GG
Which companies pulled back on DEI
seems like GS/MS have doubled down on it.
How do u know? Are they looking for more diversity people than before??
Diversity because it keeps on giving. First gets you into school, then into the special diversity-focused sophomore internship program, then into the regular internship. And when end-of-summer offer time comes around, I’ll bet it’s considered yet again.
And if you think the AA ruling changes that, DM me about a bridge in Brooklyn I’m offering at a great price
And it doesn't just stop there. Oh PE LPs now want 50/50 classes? Easier oncycle. Oh now the firm wants to increase number of female VPs and partners? Easier promotion. And even further, oh now you want to raise your own fund? Easier fundraising from LPs.
The compounding effect from this throughout your entire career completely obliterates the advantages of targets, especially since your undergrad becomes more or less irrelevant once you graduate.
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