Thoughts on Achieving Prestige, Rank, and Dignity
Before working in finance I studied philosophy in college. This forum has been very helpful in pivoting to a different career though it has made me think about how social prestige affects our lives.
High school and college students on this forum obsessively rank banks based on their assumed prestige every other day even though they have no clue what they actually do. This mentality is carried over to the professional world, where those in high-finance circles peacock against each other by comparing watches and university pedigrees. There exists an objective power that those who hold prestige enjoy. The professionals who are considered prestigious are more or less treated like archaic kings that have they key to grant you extraordinary wealth.
We can see how those with lesser rank try to "network" with them and absorb their power through proximity, the objective form being job referrals, notoriety among the social circle, etc. Many on wso find it tempting to try and conquer this ladder of prestige and get to the top. They want to be the Angel Investor that writes checks for their friends startups, or a PM managing billions in assets. People are drawn to these roles not out of a love for investing but for a love of dignity, of being held in high regard.
It's actually not difficult to make it to this level and the majority of people on this forum have the capacity to reach an equal status to the prestigious and wealthy people they idolize. The problem is that such desires always change when people work towards that goal.
Being a MD at Goldman making $2M a year sounds great until you spend five years in the bullpen. What ambitious people work towards is getting away from what they (or society) consider undignified and into the world of prestige.
If you ask most people on this forum if they thought of themselves as equals to a McDonald's cashier they would probably get offended. The cashier is thought of as not doing a "useful" job and thus is undignified, though ironically a society can function without a TMT M&A division just fine.
Money is prestigious because it represents a objective power someone has over another, and if there's a price for everything then there's a price to lord over you. Poverty is undignified because you are enslaved and made an object rather than the sovereign subject that you are. Laborers work so they can eat and work again, while the owners enjoy their lives to the fullest with the profits made by the workers. Being in high finance is thus prestigious because it equates to having enough money to be free from the demands of capitalism while also having excess to enjoy luxuries. Financiers enjoy the excess profits provided by the financial system and thus objectively hold power through their wealth.
This is not a communist essay that shames shareholders, it's actually only natural for us to want to be the owners, to be the prestigious and dignified person who gets to enjoy the world without servitude. Though there are objective advantages to playing this game of prestige and being this person, chasing prestige will ultimately make your world much more impoverished.
If your life is defined by enjoying the luxuries made available through wealth, at some point there becomes diminishing returns to what the objective world can bring. The first car you buy can bring you immense joy but each one after than is less exciting than the first. You would probably not even feel half of the joy an addict feels after staying clean for half a year and getting off the streets and into a motel. What the material world brings is a margin of safety against the violence of the world.
If you're in the top 20% of Americans you don't have to worry about one medical bill causing you to become evicted like the bottom 50%. What it won't do is bring the happiness that people are trying to find when they climb the latter of prestige. To find that we need to look towards our inner experience rather than the objective world and its established social order solely based on an individuals economic worth as a function of his dignity.
Edit: Thanks to kindheartedconsultant for reformatting the post and Ozymandia for noticing it was on the wrong form. I had it in paragraphs but it must've changed when I corrected the forum.
I think this is in the wrong forum
Both of us write pretty long stuff, but this is a bit much. Use paragraphs, holy cow…
Broken into paragraphs for readability
Before working in finance I studied philosophy in college. This forum has been very helpful in pivoting to a different career though it has made me think about how social prestige affects our lives.
High school and college students on this forum obsessively rank banks based on their assumed prestige every other day even though they have no clue what they actually do. This mentality is carried over to the professional world, where those in high-finance circles peacock against each other by comparing watches and university pedigrees.
There exists an objective power that those who hold prestige enjoy. The professionals who are considered prestigious are more or less treated like archaic kings that have they key to grant you extraordinary wealth.
We can see how those with lesser rank try to "network" with them and absorb their power through proximity, the objective form being job referrals, notoriety among the social circle, etc.
Many people on wso find it tempting to try and conquer this ladder of prestige and get to the top. They want to be the Angel Investor that writes checks for their friends startups, or a PM managing billions in assets.
It's actually not difficult to make it to this level and the majority of people on this forum have the capacity to reach an equal status to the prestigious and wealthy people they idolize. The problem is that such desires always change when people work towards that goal.
Being a MD at Goldman making $2M a year sounds great until you spend five years in the bullpen. What ambitious people work towards is getting away from what they (or society) consider undignified and into the world of prestige.
If you ask most people on this forum if they thought of themselves as equals to a McDonald's cashier they would probably get offended. The cashier is thought of as not doing a "useful" job and thus is undignified, though ironically a society can function without a TMT M&A division just fine.
Money is prestigious because it represents a objective power someone has over another, and if there's a price for everything then there's a price to lord over you. Poverty is undignified because you are enslaved and made an object rather than the sovereign subject that you are.
Laborers work so they can eat and work again, while the owners enjoy their lives to the fullest with the profits made by the workers. Being in high finance is thus prestigious because it equates to having enough money to be free from the demands of capitalism while also having excess to enjoy luxuries.
Financiers enjoy the excess profits provided by the financial system and thus objectively hold power through their wealth.
This is not a communist essay that shames shareholders, it's actually only natural for us to want to be the owners, to be the prestigious and dignified who gets to enjoy the world without servitude. Though there are objective advantages to playing this game of prestige and being this person, chasing prestige will ultimately make your world much more impoverished.
If your life is defined by enjoying the luxuries made available through wealth, at some point there becomes diminishing returns to what the objective world can bring. The first car you buy can bring you immense joy but each one after than is less exciting than the first.
You would probably not even feel half of the joy an addict feels after staying clean for half a year and getting off the streets and into a motel. What the material world brings is a margin of safety against the violence of the world.
If you're in the top 20% of Americans you don't have to worry about one medical bill causing you to become evicted like the bottom 50%. What it won't do is bring the happiness that people are trying to find when they climb the latter of prestige.
To find that we need to look towards our inner experience rather than the objective world and its established social order solely based on an individuals economic worth as a function of his dignity.
Did you actually finish your philosophy degree? This reads like what a 21yo who watched too much Jordan Peterson would write.
Too much Jordan B Peterson is not possible. Take control of your life to protect yourself from the chaos of the modern world, bucko.
freshman who just read Marx for the first time energy
I think this is one of the more thought provoking pieces written in a while, so +1 SB for your contribution alone.
There is a lot to unpack here, as this seems to be a true stream of consciousness post as opposed to one with a underlying thesis (this is my natural style of writing too, so no judgement here).
I want to start by acknowledging that I dont have any hard data on this, but that personally, I think the people most caught up in the prestige / ranking debate are the most insecure and / or deal with the largest senses of inadequacy. My brother and I grew up two years apart and despite coming from the same place have had extremely different paths.
Despite getting significantly better grades and outperforming me on all tests, he opted for a large state school because he felt a true connection with it. This was a student who knocked the most advanced courses out of the park, and could attend some very elite schools (read: schools in some of the rankings lists commonly published on this site). But he didn't care. He knew, deep down, that he was an intelligent guy who was likely to succeed, so he went after what he prioritized, not what society said to prioritize. Sure, maybe this closed a few doors if he was interested in say finance, but he wasn't, and he knew that too. He majored in STEM, taught himself to code in his free time, and landed a job at an elite consulting firm without even trying. Ultimately, he decided it wasn't for him and left to join a small company as a SWE where he works 40 hours a week and makes a fraction of his maximum potential earnings. He never played the corporate ladder game, and is starting side hustles and pursuing passions on the side. To be candid, I am extremely jealous of him and his ability to live such a full life.
I, on the other hand, was an underperformer in HS and attended a not-so-great (read: non-target) university not by choice but due to lack of options. I became obsessed with the finance track, first banking, then consulting, and for a while, PE. I ultimately gained exposure to each industry (with the exception of PE, I went the Corp Dev route instead), and made it my sole focus in life. For the past few years, I have consistently spent the vast majority of every day working. The sense of prestige never really came regardless of role, and my insecurities around intelligence never deteriorated either.
I remained (no longer current tense) insecure about my mediocre UG for a long time, and seriously thought about an MBA just so I could say "Look at me, I'm actually smart, as per my M7 degree". For a long time, I was so desperate to prove I could land the most prestigious roles, only available to the most ambitious, hardworking, and intelligent candidates.
As I've gotten older, I've gained more perspective. A certain point came where I reflected enough to realize that my self worth would never change simply due to my job title, and my insecurities would never dissipate due to landing a certain role, regardless of level of responsibility, title, or salary.
This decision inevitably resulted in my current choice to try and find a balance. Based on my track record, my next goal for a long time was to land a PE gig. But it is not my top priority any more, and I have no intention of entering the space unless I stumble across a really appealing role.
I know I could work in PE given my network and experience, but I ultimately decided it would only be worth it if I were to stay long enough to realize carry. As that is not my game plan (I am not tied to M&A, or even finance at this point in life), I would be netting less annually than I currently make now (I am not a UMM / MF candidate, but could stumble into a LMM fund / maybe a MM PE fund). I had to fight my own instincts to chase the prestige of PE
I think for many people, as they age, they realize how silly it is to chase after the most prestigious roles and opportunities. If you want to prove you are the best, or bring in the most money by working at the top firms, there is nothing wrong with that. I commend you and you have my utmost respect. But if prestige is your primary driver and you are 5+ years into your career, I cant help but pity you.
I come from a family of doctors and lawyers, and have worked in IB and Consulting, and I have come to learn that once you peel back the onion, all "prestigious" jobs are actually pretty brutal and exhausting in some way, shape, or form. I thought IB was extremely prestigious, until I worked in the field. Same goes for Consulting, and Corp Dev. Watching my family members work as partners in law firms or as specialist surgeons in the medical field, I can testify that these roles are about as glamorous as working any manual labor job. They are soul crushing and brutal.
Prestige is not something that confident, successful people often fixate on. They have much stronger drivers for operating the way they do. Even the titans of finance (Henry Kravis, Buffet, Dalio) didn't chase prestige. They were passionate about the financial markets and started their own thing. This is what leaders do. Prestige chasers are sheep, and therefore incapable of being truly unique leaders or, even better, innovators.
TLDR: Chasing prestige is for the insecure, the unimaginative, and those without the ability to execute as leaders or define success on their own terms.
Damn right. To quote Lincoln, "Towering genius disdains a beaten path."
Achieving prestige, rank, and dignity requires a combination of hard work, dedication, and a commitment to personal and professional growth, as well as a willingness to learn from both successes and failures along the way. It's important to stay focused on your goals while remaining true to your values and priorities, and to strive for a balance between achieving success and maintaining a sense of purpose and meaning in your life.
No offense but have to give you some criticism. You seem to be at a point where you're trying to put together some ideas but it's really disconjointed and all over the place - and I'm not talking about the stream of consciouness writing style. I'm talking about the ideas themselves.
First you start with prestige and how it motivates people, then jump to how a finance person does not look at McDonald's workers the same way, then about the hardwork involved in becoming MD, then whether being a TMT MD adds any value to society, then about the freedom of wealth but then you switch to talking about the benefit of not having to pay emergency bills and healthcare, etc etc. I don't really see any unifying thoughts between the concepts or at least in the way that you have portrayed them.
I would go sit down in a room and think about this for a few months or years and then put pen to paper. I don't think even you know what you are thinking. Figure that out first. Then put it out to the world to get their thoughts.
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