Fellow monkeys, was reading this article on Bloomberg which mentioned that Industry bodies are trying to push banks to offer student debt programmes and other incentives to attract top talent.
That may not be enough. Many young graduates are rejecting the decades-old formula of working long hours in entry-level banking jobs, hoping for a shot at making millions later.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there enough of demand as it is? Why the additional push towards this direction? Is Wall Street losing talent to the valley?
I hate seeing anyone mention "student debt programs" additional incentive. Is that not what a salary is?
Companies can be as creative as possible while drafting pay structures!
Especially as it punishes those who did not take on debt. Are there any tax benefits for doing this or is it simply PR for those who don't see through this scheme?
Many Americans are unhappy with how university costs are rising and they're having to take on more debt, but with more programs to relieve students of this debt (better lending terms, debt payment through employer or even partial debt relief) the problem just gets worse as schools will adapt to the new inflow of easy cash and raise tuition even more.
They've been selling this "millenials don't want to work in finance"for quite some time. Yet, competition to get an internship (not to mention FT offers) continues to be quite savage.
True, tech has its appeals - A lot of people are really hooked into the thing of working in sandals and shorts, taking pets to the office and so on. In real life, though the hours are still tough, competition for positions at top firms is savage and most likely people will not be the next Zuck.
In the end of the day, this apparent competition between Wall Street and Silicon Valley is restricted to a handful of candidates, and I don't see people leaving finance in droves because now it's cool to be a techie even if they don't really like it. I do believe however, that maybe some people would be really happy outside finance, so best wishes for them.
Also - I don't know about the US but here in BR most jobs in finance (even BO functions) pay much more than most other sectors (including a vast majority of tech roles) so the area is still coveted by millenials.
That's so true. I don't believe this millennials thing. There are so many of them competing for few spots
Guess it is more about those competitive coders who have offers both in Quant roles and tech companies. I heard that the pay was comparable. At least at entry level roles.
This. Plus the article clarifies that they are talking about kids from Ivy Leagues and Wharton. If banks are truly worried about a lack of interest go to non-target schools and you'll have a line out the door and around the back.
There comes a point where articles like these become useless because, as dornelbr mentioned recruiting and trying to land a SA or FT IB gig is becoming ever more competitive so lack of interest is just BS.
This. Employers will always find a way to pick with us millenials. Can't wait for another 10 years and then it'll be the next group.
..
As an Ivy student, I can attest that people are now thirsting for consulting and MBB. Finance competition is still real, but it's nowhere near the mayhem that is a consulting info session.
IMO, the obsession with ivy league schools should have been gone long ago.
kkrrjrnabisco can you explain something to me? Why do Wall Street firms "lust" over Ivy League students? I assume its because they can but...
Wouldn't it be better to hire non-target or just students in general that have a genuine interest in IB rather than the top student who will bail for an MBA, PE firm, etc after 2 years and is merely using IB as a springboard?
Every now and then I'll come across an article which will say that IB jobs are not difficult at all and how firms are using various methods to entice and keep fresh grads in banking...why not then ignore the one's you know are likely to bail?
Why not go after Joe from State U who will stay in banking or is more likely than Zhang or Ravi from Harvard or UPenn that has his eyes set on PE, startup, etc?
calm it down with the word "savage". This isn't high school
savage
That was savage, fam.
This. The only people who can overlap are the Mathmos/CompScis/Engineers from good schools who have access to both i-banking/S&T/Quant/Algo Trading/{insert other high finance job} recruiting and are eligible for the software engineering/PM jobs at top tier tech companies.
For the traditional biz or econ major, it's not really a direct comparison as the business roles within tech companies pay considerably less than banking or consulting would.
This "handful of candidates" is the handful that matters though. The top level talent is the future of any industry, and this is a scaling arms race between silicon valley and wall street that will have repercussions for some time.
No one is going to give a shit if joe schmo chooses to be an excel monkey or a coding monkey. He's still an ape.
But when Future Top Level CEO 69 chooses silicon valley over wall street, then the street has lost a lot of potential value. Sure, there are others available to take the spot... but maybe he was the next Dimon or Cohen.
It's not that serious. At the end of the day, it comes and goes in cycles. There was a lot of need to move capital around fast at one point in time so it took an army of capable people, now the world is trying to push forward this technological revolution. People just want jobs and economic activity happens more vibrant where needed most.
not attractive to millenials? Better for me.
Haha. Agreed. Guess that will be the view on WSO.
Yeah I disagree with the article on this to be honest. Application numbers have only gone up and since everyone uses linkedin there are always like 1,000+ applicants to no-name ibd jobs. Are there better jobs than IBD? Yes but they are even more competitive to get since they are based a lot on school pedigree (MBB, AM, HF, etc.).
Maybe it's just the liberal media again with their bias views trying to commit the conspiracy of poisoning the well. I think maybe the reality is just that the inflow has peaked already. Kids coming up now looking to get jobs better be hoping so.
I'm not one to point the media as culprit, but at least here they've been working on those pieces like 'Millennials don't want a traditional career, they prefer not to own stuff and make a living selling coconut water in some beach' which is a romantic, yet stupid world view who clearly works only if you can count with The Bank of Mom & Dad. Also, both finance and tech won't hire most of millennials anyway (as they either lack skills, network and experience) leaving a pool of generally well qualified candidates for an ever decreasing number of positions.
I was joking about the media, but they are seriously obsessed with any business scandal they can find. It's all too click-baitey. I'm quite sure they don't really believe the nonsense
The careers you're referring to are still attractive to a significant number of students and young professionals.
Because they're too busy living in vans and calling non-profit volunteer work a job. Fucking hipsters.
Tech, banking, and consulting have always been excellent for exit opps, but I think there is a (somewhat) newly revived aura around tech as leaving the most possibilities open, by virtue of the industry being more entrepreneurial. The desirability of tech companies is also driven by the incredible expansion in job opportunities, which doesn't make Wall Street less attractive, but rather tech a feasible, prestigious, and altogether comparable alternative. Most Millennials/college-aged students I know are applying to both Wall Street and Silicon Valley, and the Street is still a very attractive destination.
As an Ivy student, I can attest that people are now thirsting for consulting and MBB. Finance competition is still real, but it's nowhere near the mayhem that is a consulting info session.
McKinsey or Bust? I know that probably does exist but I just haven't seen it as much as the GS-> KKR -> HBS or bust attitude on here.
Well, the competition to be a hoverboard tester working from home for a tech startup in San Francisco is quite savage these days...
There is huge potential to make money in the tech side and the culture is so much better. This is very much evident in the way both industries recruit. Apply to a top tech company and they look at your whole application rather than just focus on your university name. I know of a couple of people that dropped out of school, did a short apprenticeship in a software engineering firm and then got picked up by a major tech company. They are making more money then you could ever make in IB.
Compare that to IB where they just look at your university name and grade. That sticks with you no matter what you achieve in the future. This culture just isnt appealing.
I wouldn't say it's 'better' or not - It really depends on the individual. There are persons who really enjoy the life in finance - Yes, as weird as it may sound some people actually enjoy working long hours, pressure, competition etc etc. The money of course it's a huge factor, most reasonable professionals understand they might not become MDs or partners in some cool PE shop but understand it's an area where you can make yourself a very comfortable life. Not to mention the type of colleagues they will have - People with similar interests/backgrounds tend to stick together.
The same applies to tech, of course, that's undeniable.
Still, even if some tech shops may not look to your school's name they will still focus on the cream of the crop - the smartest individuals or whatever. This is no way more "accessible" than getting into banking. You know how recruiting works.
And yeah, cultural/generational aspects influence, a lot. To give you an idea, here the "dream job" of most millenials is to work for the government - The base pay for most roles is high (at least in entry levels), usually there is no prior experience requirement (entrance is through an exam) and well it's government so you don't really work. Does this make the sector "better", or does it "steal" candidates from finance? No, not at all.
I cracked up at all the "savage" and "thirsting" in this thread. I'm surprised these Ivy kids are looking for consulting over IB, that seems so lame to me. Haven't these millennial kids seen the LSO Wall Street Musical on youtube??
Bahahahaha. That is an excellent video. I dearly, dearly miss LSO.
EDIT: Link for anyone who has not seen it:
I think it is just attracting a different crowd.
Those with family money seem less inclined to get into IB than in the past, however old money still runs the media. Getting a job publishing articles for FT, NYTimes or WSJ is probably worlds harder than MBB or IB. So in their bubbles it seems like wall street is less attractive.
"Is wall street losing talent to the valley?"
Do pigs fly?
To be honest, tech, finance and consulting have all become synonymous with: "high paying jobs with solid optionality - particularly for people from top schools". Their interview processes are converging, their focus on pedigree is converging; I don't really see this as a case of millennials losing interest they're just following the same well trodden paths.
It seems like the barriers for entry are much lower in tech compared to banking and consulting, you have kids that didn't even major in CS that seem to get jobs at decent tech companies (not exactly big 4 but decent companies) because they went to a bootcamp or had a nice portfolio.
Is this true or am I just hearing the one out of a million success stories?
This is not the case, in the slightest.
then this is news to me because I've heard many experiences to the contrary
I think the reasoning is very simple: the pay in banking no longer aligns with the amount of sacrifice that the job requires. The hours in banking have not gotten any better since pre-2008, but the bonuses have shrunk.
That being said, while Wall Street might have to start recruiting at lower ranked programs and adjust its interviewing process accordingly, I would disagree with the idea that Silicon Valley is causing Wall Street to lose talent. What I think people do not realize is that the recruiting needs of both industries are completely different. Wall Street provides all the training and knowledge that analysts need through their analyst training programs, while Silicon Valley has no equivalent. This results in Wall Street firms not being heavily dependent on recruiting from top programs, while Silicon Valley firms depend on it. There is very little, if any, difference between the training programs at GS and Stifel, but there certainly is a difference between the computer science programs at Stanford and UC Irvine.
Yeah, I believe it's mainly the above coupled with the MSM's constant demonizing of the industry since 2008. Keep in mind how most Americans (but especially young people) are brainwashed by the media. It might sound laughable, but I believe there exists a decent percentage of people under 30 that believe simply working in high finance is somehow evil.
Bunch of Nerdz
Millennial here at a semi-target Canadian university. Most of my friends that are shooting for the valley prefer the lifestyle and overall job perks. In SV, you get great pay, don't get treated like shit and still have comfortable exit options. You're seeing downsizing at a lot of the banks and some would argue the exits aren't worth being put through the meat-grinder.
There is plenty of interest, however is there enough "qualified" talent that is interested?
f*c$ing lazy ass millennials... Allz I know is, the ones who do put their heads down and learn a hard finance skillset, while their friends are busy making pickles and growing fuggly pubic hair beards, are going to rule the world in 30 years when all the old crusty bankers have died off.
Well, I'm into engineering and I'm loving it. dornelbr said brazillians don't dream about jobs in IB's. But actuallly most of br guys don't even know about the sector.
And I don't blame the media. Nor even the "Dream Jobs" at the Government. Because, government is good for kids from lawschool. No other sector promises good outcomes from gvt based jobs. The problem, is that IB's need to have at least 50 mi BRL just to have a permission to open. So, this is not a class of institutions which would open doors for the common people. Here we have USP, UFRJ, Unicamp, UnB and UFF, which can provide the market with qualified quants for the jobs... But, these institutions aren't quite preparing kids to even look at this types of jobs... Simply Pick USP, they may put some kids into IB. But, in the other hand, institutions which are able to qualify kids for the Financial Markets, aren't public. I guess even FAAP isn't looking into preparing kids for doing so.
Here you get Insper, and IBMEC, Saint Paul, and may hardly be that you could put FGV into it..may be... These are mostly little class schools. Lots of this kids are underperformers. Most of big cats on IB, or Even HF, are ultra-big guys. Capital is awfully limited... We even have an ex-minister into a HF... So, the market here is for the legendary big cats...Not for kiddos.
I have embraced the american dream, since I was 14. I wanted a job, I got it, I wanted a company, I got it.. And, when I looked into college, I tried to get my best and broadest options. First I picked two courses, Accounting and engineering. Second, I talked to people, to learn how could I get a Big Business, Free Money to Put on what I wanted, and what would I do, what would I learn, and most important, where would I be exactly at the right time. Well, the last one is easier to know and to do than most of them.
Anyway, I'm not a millenial. I'm a 90's kid. and it is obvious to me that the U.S. is the right place for anyone to try something into the IB Market. The Thing is, that I just wish to open a HF for my-self...So I'll have to work my ass off. Learn a lot of things, work for real HF companies, put one of my own... And, specially do as I did best...which is invest like a PE venture should be done. Then, if I get able to do things by my self and have the time to do so... May be I work with it for the rest of my life... And I still pretend to run the business I run today, and even a commercial venture engineering-related, and a technically-related engineering company as my uncle says...when I have at least 15 years of experience into the field. So, there's a hard long way to go... To think that I left medschool for doing this... I may really be crazy. and it seems a lot less fo effort to me, at lest looks more gratifying.
Also, as a br guy... I only see stupid people here... I don't think there's much to hope for people here in the next 15 years. At least, looks like economy may improve until it happens.
LOL man most USP interns we interview are practically illiterate, they try to use the school's pedigree to open doors while most of them can't complete basic numerical/writing tests. I disagree about Insper and FGV. Small class size does not mean people there are underperformers, quite the contrary, most of the smart people in finance today come from those places.
No, Size isn't reducing the quality of class. The problem, is that a lot of guys there are underperformers. As some in USP guys often are.
I know that a lot of engineering guy's from USP and UFRJ get at the Financial Market. Some that I know, are complete dumbasses. Some guys from Insper, IBMEC and Saint Paul I know, are very smart. Specially those from Insper, some even aren't Financie-related, but have tallent to get by easily. From FGV, the ones I know are mostly MBA level. But the best ones aren't native, specially france-related business-people from traditional families.
The most important thing that I am seeing ignored in this thread is passion. Who gives a shit about the small differences between exit opps and pay? If I were wanting to land a gig on wall street, as competitive as it is- I would need to be passionate about it. The opposite is true for the kids wanting to go to silicon valley. These "have it all" kids that we are talking about are the ones who are going to passionately pursue their dream jobs. It's not pay or hours that are driving their decision making
Dolores et sit perferendis accusamus saepe dolor quia omnis. Reiciendis praesentium ea blanditiis cupiditate quia assumenda esse. Sit sed ea enim doloribus qui omnis consequatur. Molestiae in minima porro magnam et quis corporis.
Illo odit perferendis est nihil similique nostrum. Veritatis alias voluptatum necessitatibus totam sit temporibus hic eos. Eius qui porro assumenda porro laudantium dolor odit.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Quia velit quae alias. Eum quo reiciendis dolorem dignissimos. Mollitia est dolores eos dolorem eos dolorum. Rem sint quis doloremque deserunt iure sit iure. Sed distinctio tempore at aliquam odio reprehenderit. Sunt ut deserunt nostrum quo est eveniet.
Asperiores accusantium inventore sapiente aliquid. Amet sint sed nisi vel voluptatum quibusdam esse. Fuga nemo voluptatum eveniet ad.
Sit consectetur illum qui aliquam ab corrupti quod. In fugit et illum officiis. Eos hic perspiciatis qui et corrupti maiores consequatur.
Dolorum facilis rerum beatae debitis et dolores dolores. Perspiciatis necessitatibus deleniti cum sunt quisquam. Aut iure sit consequatur itaque. Nesciunt perspiciatis eius ab.
Id fugiat facilis unde id accusamus unde. Sapiente id quidem sit sunt ea debitis. Explicabo soluta minus earum at nihil commodi quae. Minima aperiam ut dolorem natus eaque.
Eius labore autem debitis et voluptatum aut et. Provident ratione consequatur quia dolorem ab corrupti explicabo quia. Veniam quod expedita id deleniti. Quia illo odit suscipit.
Minus exercitationem dolores rerum qui rerum odit. Distinctio rem quibusdam aut natus unde ut id qui. Nulla inventore officia molestiae vero. Id architecto minus nobis numquam pariatur. Et ut ad eum rerum cum reiciendis distinctio.