(Exploding offers) - Dumb to pass on UMM for LMM Sr. Associate + Quicker Promote?
4 years of experience (2 Years IB, 2 years PE). Last 2 years of PE spent at a MM fund ($2bn). 2 year program ending and have been fortunate enough to get 2 offers. 1 is at a strong UMM (THL/NMC/Lindsay Goldberg/Golden Gate) for Associate 1. Other offer is at a LMM PE shop (5-10 person investment team) running out of a $200m Fund IV as a senior associate, and they’ve noted 2 years to VP which seems quite certain to me given the space right now in the middle. Argument in my head here is brand name versus title/culture - comp is relatively similar (and I shouldn’t make decision off short term comp anyways). Culture is way better at LMM seemingly and lots of ownership and autonomy and returns have been good recently but obviously fund is very small. UMM though has a huge brand name, which wouldn’t matter to me as much but not sure if I am going to go to Bschool or move geographies eventually so optionality is still important (likely will move geography in 3-4 years). UMM seems a bit sharp elbowed based on interviews and will be a fight for sure to get to senior associate. Also don’t think I want to repeat my fresh associate years and go through the shit I’ve gone through. But again, the brand name I’m sure will be helpful… what do u guys think? My heart is telling me the LMM but not sure if I am being dumb/soft
Have you spoken to any former employees from the shops you're considering? I'd strongly recommend it. There are a number of UMM firms that are in tough shape right now. It might not be obvious to an outsider given how long it takes for a track record to materialize but there are some firms that will likely be the next Onex, American Securities, etc. For the LMM shop, it'll also help give you more perspective on the opportunity and the outlook for the firm.
Assuming the UMM firm you're considering doesn't have that risk, I'd take that offer despite having to repeat your Associate years. It's easier to move down market and lateral if you don't make it to SA rather than taking a risk on a LMM shop and trying to lateral from there if it doesn't work out. You'll also likely get better training and development at the larger firm. Lean teams at LMM shops tend to be stretched and not the best for junior or mid-level development.
Have spoken to people at both funds. The UMM fund is well known and doing well, and this will be in one of their top coverage groups. LMM is also doing well - past employees have noted that they love it there and think it’s amazing experience - the last guy that was there was there for 4 years or so and made it to principal before lateraling to a respectable MM/UMM fund as a principal for what it is worth - definitely not saying I’d be able to do the same (maybe market was way better back then)
All to say that it is very unlikely the UMM will become like AMSEC over the next few years based on portfolio performance. But again, not sure I wanna be a fresh associate again fighting against a class of 10 for a title that I can already get now, albeit at a much smaller fund
When you mention risk at the LMM, what are you referring to?
One of the UMMs listed is a run away at all costs kind of place
GG lol
Not going to GG for what it’s worth. UMM option is doing well and respected to say the least and not give away
THL is also doing terribly performance wise. Friend there said last fund is fourth quartile. It's also definitionally a JAMMBO firm. Would not want to work there over most growing or well-performing funds.
UMM is worth it if it's truly a growing UMM or at least a well-performing one. LG is a great firm and is around ~5bn in fund size, but NMC is clearly a step-up to it. Would still lean towards LG over the LMM offer, but it's going to depend on your conviction on the LMM.
I think repeating 2 years (versus 1) is somewhat meaningful given as you said it’s like starting over in that “class of 10” mentality fighting to prove you are even a human being (depending on how bad the culture is etc).
If the LMM is a strategy you’re highly convicted about and feel like you can become a meaningful person there who carries a torch, then that has very big value (versus just being another cog).
But if you’re more thinking pre MBA role and not as sure of your own skillset etc, then the UMM brand name is “safer” choice that prevents li from having to commit so hard to this LMM.
Also I think which exact UMM firm it is matters. I think LG/NMC is different from THL/GG.
UMM Will be more like a LG/NMC - what if not going to MBA but for lateral down the line . Would VP that has closed a bunch of deals and ran their own stuff at the LMM be more respectable to recruiters and funds than the senior associate (if I even can get it) at a UMM
Or is it at least equal? Know for a fact that LMM will let me really take ownership and won’t just be cog in wheel like you said
how is comp similar? assuming UMM ASO 1 is around 350 and LMM Senior Aso also 350, seem a bit high? thought it would be closer to 300 with some upside or carry
Doubt a $200m lmm is paying $350 for a senior associate. Probably more like $250 w/ maybe 15 bps.
Much higher than 250 is the offer, but not as much as 350. Which probably weighs into decision that i will make (I.e. culture of the LMM is strong)
Dude you need to take the LMM offer. Currently at a UMM fund.
Why u say that?
If you’re getting carry and salary / bonus is workable, i’d take the LMM offer. Better culture + upward mobility is very important and unless you want to move to a different PE firm the “prestige” of a PE firm doesn’t matter.
Don’t underestimate enjoyment of the people / firm in your decision. I would strongly advise against chasing prestige - there are posts every day about people getting burnt out in umm/mf space. In my view it’s better to take a little risk in the form of lower cash for better culture + carry + upward mobility.
What if I want to move in 3-4 years but everything u said is true about culture and upward mobility being better? Still take the LMM?
Huge congrats man. Not to derail, but would love to hear more about your process and how you went about making this happen, particularly in a world with such few PE seats and where there are threads here where ppl are literally unemployed for years trying to recruit to find any type of PE spot to take them after their associate stint
Thank you! Was definitely a grind but was a mix of direct outreach to funds and headhunters - was a very stressful span of time for sure and agree that the market is not the best
FWIW though, I’d also encourage you to think some more about this “culture” point. There is this general sentiment that LMM culture = good, UMM culture = bad. Hopefully this should be obvious but worth being explicit about — there are PLENTY of LMM funds with bad cultures, and where it is quite hard to rise up the ranks (fact of the matter is PE is bloated everywhere)
I do also think careers compound and the world is kindof an unfair place such that from a pure career POV, you are prob better off on an optionality and maximizing opportunity basis by going to the UMM. To some of the other points in the thread, being an associate is a grind and so you should be congizant of where you are jn life and what you’re willing to do, eg if you’re about to get married and want some time with your wife to start a family, the calculation is different than if your whole identity is career and you are in love with prestige (obviously if you want a family the move is not PE, but just making a point illustratively).
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