Manage a difficult reference
Hi,
Was previously at a fund where I had struggled, and was pushed out after my associate stint to business school.
Recently interviewed for a VP/SA role, and was told off the record that I would have gotten the offer but the backchannel check from my prior fund was not great. I definitely have 1-2 people at that fund that would go to bat for me, but also a few that probably wouldn't say great things.
Any advice on how to manage this? I assume the best I can do is hope the next fund I get an offer at asks me for references?
Issues were performance based - struggled to acclimate and got in my own head. Didn't have any issues at the fund prior (lateraled with good reviews) or in banking.
Following. Similar position. Hope my references don’t screw me over, but who knows
Also - how would you manage this if similar story but happened to you as a VP / principal / etc (more senior in your career basically)
Following.
Somewhat related - does anyone know how far back companies ask for references, or does it depend on the firm or time spent at company? And what is discussed in reference checks?
I’ll give Ou the uncomfortable truth. We call everyone in our network who may have known you, whether you list them as references or not. Making the wrong hire is the most expensive mistake you can make.
So Truman Show from your 1st day in the Industry
Wish I had better guidance, but it's ultimately going to be luck. Even if a fund asks you for references, there's a strong chance that they perform their own checks via their network (sounds like that was the case here).
I'd say you don't have much recourse, besides owning the situation (if it comes up again) and having some positively-framed talking points ready (what you've improved upon during business school, how you've grown, what you appreciated about the associate opportunity, etc.).
I'd keep it positive vs. defensive and hope for some grace (or just get lucky and find somewhere that doesn't find those off-the-record references).
Well, this is a tricky situation. I'd say that in most situations, even employers who fired you, want you to get another job. It minimizes time on unemployment which costs them some money, and also legal risk. When they really can't give you a good reference, it is common to simply decline to provide a reference at all. If you really think they are saying something negative about you, you might consider asking them to zip it, and maybe with the help of an attorney. At the end of the day, its possible a firm won't want to waste money on legal expenses so they can trash talk a former employee. And it's not uncommon for a firm to have a dispute with a departing employee, and refuse to provide a reference, so if the HR dept says, "all we can do is confirm dates of employment and job title." I don't think that's necessarily show stopper.
Okay but aside from that what can you do? People tend to form an opinion about who you are, not who you're not. If the truth is things didn't go that well at your last job, then you need to change the conversation. What do you have that they should hire you when they have many other people who have a good reference? Special expertise in some area? You're never going to change the fact that you did not ace that last job. But don't let that be baggage the follows you around forever, instead sell yourself on what you have to offer today. That's my two cents. Good luck.
This person went to business school, they're not on unemployment -- and unemployment taxes are not a relevant cost in the context of running a PE shop.
A truthful accounting of a former employee's performance is not "trash talk" and does not expose a firm to any legal risk. This is a common misconception, but it's flat-out wrong. The truth is an absolute defense against a defamation claim, which is what you'd be going for here.
Many large firms have a "only confirm dates and rehire eligibility" policy, but that's not because giving a poor reference is in and of itself risky -- it's because what is said has to be absolutely true (and well documented, if there's any chance of litigation). Most large firms don't want the risk exposure that some middle manager accidentally says something legally risky, so they forbid it. There's no real upside for them in giving references, either good or bad, anyway.
But a small shop in an industry where reputation is everything has different incentives. They want the people who move on from their analyst programs to get good jobs -- that helps them recruit their next round of analysts. So generally they want to give good references. But, if someone genuinely had performance issues and the shop is concerned that the person will reflect poorly on them as a former, the shop actually is incentivized to tell the truth about those performance issues. Again, their incentive is for their former analysts to get hired in good places, so they don't want someone to hire one of those former analysts and decide "people who used to work at X must be idiots" and not hire any more in the future.
Is what it is.
This is the right advice. Your past performance is not something you can change. You can only move forward. Don't deny the past, change the conversation, talk about what you learned, talk about what you can offer now. Don't try to "manage" it.
I'm confused, this post is very critical, but it sounds we almost entirely agree, except on the topic of unemployment insurance. As the owner of an asset management shop, I do care about how much we pay for unemployment insurance, workers comp, and other insurance that can be affected by employee turnover rates and disputes. That is because I am in the business of making money, not in the business of enforcing an unwritten code about who deserves to work in the industry. I hope you'll consider removing the downvote, and I look forward to hearing more of your comments.
Any way to preemptively provide positive references from that job? I do have a couple senior people who have been good references for me. Think it just depends on who they ask.
Just seems difficult - ie how will I ever get another job in this industry? Or perhaps I was unlucky this go around?
Main thing obviously is to crush it at my next gig but just trying to get there
One other thought, do you know which 1-2 people are torpedo-ing you behind your back? Could be worth reconnecting with them for a coffee or Zoom. You can give them an update on MBA, your life, new aspirations, etc..
I wouldn't explicitly ask them not to speak poorly but would instead emphasize how much you've grown personally, let them see your new maturity, and hope that your encounter would make them feel guilty speaking poorly about you to a friend/network.
Great idea. Doing so with a couple of them (honestly no idea who but i have my guesses)
The answer seems pretty straightforward to me - Going forward only provide references that you know without a doubt will have your back. I'm not sure how many they asked for but in my experience it's usually 3-5 so you should know exactly who these folks will be prior to even interviewing, regardless of which chapter of your career they were involved with.
I had a boss at my prior firm that was surprised and very sad/offended that I didn't let him know I was interviewing and use him as a reference once I told him I was leaving. The reason was because he's an unpredictable pompous loudmouth that often enjoys complaining and demeaningly joking about people. Roughly 80% of the time he would've been fine and shown quite well since he's a very senior and respected guy, but I'm not willing to risk the 20% chance that he weirdly starts putting me down to lift himself up.
You need to tighten up who you can trust to have your back with references, as it can make or break a job opportunity.
I agree with all this, except the OP may have been burned by an informal reference check, so just be prepared that VPs/Principals/MDs may back-channel through their networks to “references” that you didn’t list.
Hence, need to cover your bases since these unlisted references will have more allegiance to their MBA buddy or former banking colleague (now at your fund) than an associate whom they disliked.
Most places won't back-channel , esp at this stage of your career, so you'll have the chance to actually give them names to call that you know will bat for you. I would build rapport with those guys now - reconnect with them and tell them you're recruiting and would be very appreciate of them being a reference if/when the time comes.
I actually had a slightly older friend of mine who said the same thing happened to him at the VP lateraling level so was even more nervous...
Thanks for the advice everyone. Seems like I can just try and refresh some relationships and hope for the best
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