MSRE or MBA for investment career?
What is the value of a MSRE in the real estate investment field...from what I have seen most people with MSRE's tend to be in development roles (I was at a good program and left because of this reason)..
Is there any value in a MSRE for investment, or is it only for MBA's?
Also from what I have seen/people I know, a lot of people in real estate (unless they are accountants) do not even have advanced real estate education. They may have a BS in Finance/BA/Econ/Real Estate and thats it.
So:
- Does a MSRE help breaking into top RE companies for investment/acquisition purposes?
- Is a top MBA the only way to go?
- Do you NEED graduate school to progress?
Definitely no for #3. I can think of examples I know personally, but look at Jon Gray.
I think you are generally right in terms of the types of firms that will value the MSRE. In the real estate world, there's a spectrum of firms in acquisitions ranging from those closest to Wall Street (the big RE PE shops) to those closest to the "dirt" (developers and operators). An MSRE would be most helpful with the latter, less so with the former.
If by "top RE companies for investment/acquisition" you are referring to the well-known RE PE mega funds, then it's not likely an MBA will be that helpful either unless you have pre-MBA investment banking and RE PE experience. You'll probably be looking at something between the two ends of the spectrum that I've described (think of a firm like Hines, PREI, AEW, etc.), in which case I think an MBA is somewhat more advantageous and flexible, but not necessarily much better than an MSRE.
The MSRE is a slightly more rare and niche-y degree that could be perceived as a "shortcut," so you may find people respect and understand an MBA a bit better. But I am in agreement with the comment above: graduate degrees are far more rare and irrelevant in real estate than other parts of finance.
As someone who contemplated both degrees and went with the top MBA option, I am most likely a bit biased, but I will give my thought rationale on the value of an advanced degree.
Conclusion: An advanced degree can only help your chances of receiving a decent associate/VP level job in RE Investment. Its not a magic bullet that will get someone with no RE/Finance experience a job at Blackstone, but it will help a person with RE/Finance experience at many companies. If you want to get an idea of companies that value MBAs, go to Select Leaders and search "acquisitions." There are plenty of positions that say "MBA preferred" or "advanced degree preferred." There are also positions that say "advanced degree a plus." I do think in most cases, the MBA is preferred of the MSRE, but you also see some smaller shops where everyone has an MSRE, and they generally all got it from the same school.
I do not have an MBA or MSRE, but I was thinking about this for the future. Wouldn't it make more sense to get a MSRE if you are dedicated to RE and that is where your career is. In simple terms, the classroom material is all RE related, so I'm sure you will expand your knowledge and also networking events will most likely be RE related so you can expand your network in the field.
I understand your points on the MBA for RE PE mega funds, but it just seems advantageous to get the MSRE over MBA. Not sure why they would prefer the MBA over MSRE.
CREInvestors, a lot of times things you have on your resume (prior jobs, degrees, etc.) are less about what you learned and more about pedigree. This is why many bulge bracket banks often favor Ivy League liberal arts majors over non-target finance majors. In the same way, an MSRE may offer more relevant knowledge from a real estate perspective, but the MBA from a top school is still often seen as the gold standard for graduate business pedigree.
MBAREALESTATE, I agree with the vast majority of what you wrote but take issue with your explanation to point #3. Obviously I'm quite biased since I am a non-MBA former banking analyst in RE PE. I would note, though, that many places which focus on hiring ex-IBD analysts, avoid MBA hiring, and promote from within are the top paying firms in the RE PE industry, and in the rare case when they do hire from MBA programs, they often slot those associates in at the same level as pre-MBA associate hires (unlike generalist PE, where there is almost always a sr. associate role). This would seem to contradict the notion that avoidance of MBA hiring is a result of compensation stinginess on the part of hiring firms.
I realize this is not always the case, but I have observed this enough that I am concerned that if I myself were to go for an MBA, I could basically end up taking a pay cut coming out.
I think I've commented on this before. As someone who went down the MSRE route (right out of ugrad so an MBA wasn't an option) I would say that for my specific circumstance it was better than an MBA. But the point here is that it is very circumstantial. The better MBAs will open more doors than the better MSRE programs and an MBA will give you more career flexibility. One trend that I am seeing however, is that as more MSRE grads are getting into hiring positions, they are tending to favour MSRE grads. I am guilty of this and actively recruit from my MSRE program.
I think there is also a large difference between the MSRE programs out there. I would only suggest a very small handful to attend. I have also mentioned that only the top 10% in the class get the jobs that 75% of the class aspire to have, so you really only benefit if you are a stand-out candidate. In this respect, the odds of getting to where you want to be are slim unless you have an angle already.
Also, to echo what re-ib-nyc has said, REPE firms tend to hire young re bankers and promote within without an MBA (and minimally hire MBAs), so there is possibility for the MSRE to be helpful if you get it immediately after undergrad.
How would you rank NYU's MSRE program?
It's one of the best so I've heard.
I have heard mixed reviews of the NYU program and would rank MIT, Columbia, Cornell and USC MSRE programs ahead of NYU.
An in depth discussion of MSRE rankings can be found on a business week forum.
http://forums.businessweek.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webt…
CREInvestors, I've always heard MIT's program is the best MSRE.
re-ib-ny, which top firms are you talking about? I see a number of major players (Starwood, BlackRock, Beacon, CBRE Investors, Brookfield, MSREI) in MBA employment reports. I doubt they are bringing in a new class of MBAs each year, but I gotta think there are a number of firms in the industry that hire MBAs. That being said, I am also biased/hopeful in my thinking, given that I am trying to find my way into REPE after MBA school. And I have never worked in REPE, so admittedly, you know more than I do.
MBAREALESTATE, I think some of your questions have probably been answered in the other REPE thread you started (which has prompted some interesting discussion). Of the firms you listed, BlackRock is an institutional asset manager, and CBREI and Brookfield are not really considered true RE PE in my mind. Starwood, Beacon, and MSREI are true RE PE, though (MSREI is pretty closely related to RE IBD at MS, and so they hire MBAs as associates).
As with conventional PE funds, a handful of RE PE funds will hire MBAs to senior associate ranks but look for pre-MBA RE PE experience. Other firms hire for acquisitions and Asset Management separately.
It seems that pre-MBA REPE experience is pretty much a pre-req to get into REPE post-MBA. Are there any exceptions? Do you think an MBA (assuming a top program) would have any shot at getting into the business by shooting for an associate role (i.e. one that the REIB analysts shoot for)? Obviously would require some serious networking, but would like to hear your thoughts. Its not like these associates aren't getting paid. For the most part it seems they are getting paid very well, and probably competitive with a lot of REIB associates (a typical post MBA job).
I am sure that there are exceptions, but they're pretty rare and I can't point to any consistent examples.
Shooting for a pre-MBA associate role doesn't really improve odds. I've noted before that the tendency to hire post-IBD analysts for associate roles is motivated by preference, not cost consciousness (as you've observed, the big funds pay their pre-MBA associates comparably to most MBAs).
The reality is that most of the existing talent pool at major PE funds (including RE PE) is made up of folks who went through an IBD or consulting analyst program (some of whom did an MBA along the way), they'll tend to hire their own, and there are enough of them out there that there isn't really a need to deviate from the template.
MS Real Estate Development vs. MBA with Real Estate Concentration...what makes most sense? (Originally Posted: 01/27/2014)
I live in the Washington DC area, turning 50 years old this year, and have 27 years into my career. I'm an AIA (registered architect), CCM (certified construction manager), PMP (project management professional), and LEED AP. I have a great job making just shy of $135K plus great flexibility and little stress. We're a family of 4, my wife is a stay at home Mom, and I want to give my kids (toddlers) a lot more opportunities in the future (like private schools) and a bigger home. I'm ready to go back and study, this time to business school, and I'm accustomed to working hard for the things, but can't seem to make up my mind on what program where. Since either an MSRED or MBA program will take me 3 years, I'll be out of school at 53, HAVE 20 years left to earn a salary while having to payback the loan. I need a balanced combination of best value and most opportunity for upward movement. In my mind the target range should be $200K +, position of Director of ____, in a strong design/construction/development organization. I refuse to waste time preparing for the GMAT, and much prefer to use that time reading text books to pass finance and similar classes by the time the bell rings for Fall Semester. The schools I've listed below allow me a GMAT waiver based on my undergrad GPA, coursework, and professional experience + certifications.
Here are my options (prices include tuition, books, and parking). 1. George Mason Univeristy School of Management MSRED = $31K (in-state) 2. Johns Hopkins University School of Business MSRED = $37K 3. Johns Hopkins University School of Business MBA, with concentration in RED = $63K 4. George Washington University School of Business On-line MBA, with concentration in RED = $79K
George Mason is the #141 university but they move up in the ranks faster than all other schools. Their School of Business is AACSB accrdited. Classes are on campus 1-2 evenings per week.
Johns Hopkins is the #12 ranked university, but their School of Businees is only 6 years old, so they're currently accredit by Middle States, but not AACSB (yet); they say they will be AACSB within 1 to 2 years and I do believe that to be accurate. Classes are on campus 1-2 evenings per week.
George Washington Univerisity is ranked #52, their Business School is AACSB accredited, and for the Flexible MBA program classes are 100% on-line.
All three of these programs are based within a few miles of eachother, and have decent alumni support networks.
The other local universities I've decide not to apply to, each for a good reason, include Georgetown, American, and Univeristy of Maryland.
Question regarding this investment is what yields the best return for the money within the period of time (20 years) I have to pay it off. I'm looking to a program which has highest probability of facilitating my to move to highest executive level within the design/construction/development industry, but it must make good financial sense.
Please advise. Thank you!
I think you're going to get ripped for not doing the GMAT and applying for Georgetown which is supposed to be the best program in the area for RE isn't it?
I think most are going to tell you MBA or msred may not be worth it esp at those schools at those costs and loan function
The GMAT is not a requirement for an application into the Georgetown MRED program. This is because the MRED program is not through it's School of Business, instead it's offered through the School of Continuing Studies (SCS); not accredited or ranked. Georgetown University is arguably the top institution in DC, and ranked #23 nationally. However, the SCS is not in the same league as their other schools, and the tuition reflects that at $31K for the MRED program; about the same as George Mason's in-state and $6K less than Johns Hopkins. I don't think it's a bad program, but not the best either. Most notably, I want to go to business school not a school of continuing studies; IMO that is a huge difference. Now Georgetown's School of Business does offer an MBA with an RE concentration, but that not only requires a GMAT it requires a very high undergrad GPA with very relevant undergrad coursework, and their MBA costs $124K = way too far outside of my budget.
Bump
I can't see any program giving you the return you're looking for with the amount of experience you have.
Don't have enough experience with any of this to comment on programs, but just wanted to say do not put much stock in rankings for these universities when making your decision. In your case the specific program is much more important than the university as a whole. Check employment reports and other career centre information from these schools to see what kind of jobs people have been able to get after graduating.
I'm still pretty young in my career and have no first-hand experience of your situation, but I do have an MRE and work at a development firm, so you can take this for what you want..
I would advise against MSRED because after 27 years in the industry you should have a solid network that can help vouch for your experience and I don't think an extra degree saying that you're a developer will put you over the top. None of the developers at my company have additional degrees, but they are guys with plenty of experience dealing with the municipalities, A&E's, land owners, GC's, etc, and they get the deals done. Three years in the classroom isn't going to teach you that, and based on your certfications, I would guess that you have had plenty of experience with most of those parties.
As for the MBA, do you feel that it would truly help you build on your core competencies? At 50 years old, I would probably stick to a few things that you are best at, which sounds primarily design or PM related, and I'm not sure that an MBA would really make you stand out for a position leading a team of Arch's or PM's. Financing real estate on a project-by-project basis in the way that merchant developers often do is fairly simple and something that doesn't require a specialized degree. On the other hand, if you intend to get into more complicated fund/company level financing that an MBA would be beneficial for, you are likely out of your core-competency and competing with finance guys that have much more of a background doing such things.
I would think doing some home-study to improve on places where you might be weak, or following job boards to see what type of positions are opening up more regularly and prepping specifically for those interviews would be your best option. You've got the experience and I think that is most valuable for the positions you're best suited for. On top of it all, the opportunity cost of not not working, coupled with tuition sounds bad, but not nearly as bad as graduating at 53 and working another 20 years to make up for it.
Great comments, and certainly worth taking into consideration. I love the straight forward honest truth of this board, please keep it coming (this monkey gotta think skull)! Another reason studying makes sense for me is the flexibility I have to continue working without any lost time/income and my employer will reimburse me $2,600 annually...sort of hate to not take advantage of that. Attending GMU School of Management for a MSRED would cost me a little over $20K after employer contribution and that is a pretty small loan; could possibly pay in cash as I go along. An MBA however is more than twice the cost of an MSRED.
BTW 50 AIN'T OLD, if you haven't heard it's the new 40! I have good genes, all my hair is on my head, 6'1" 190 lbs, work out every day for 2 hours and most of the 30ish year olds can't keep up with me in strength training, although I admit they're probably quicker. :)
After much contemplation I've come to the conclusion (monkey brain in overdrive) that in my cases, having 27 years of professional experience in the design/construction/development industry, and zero desire to ever switch gears towards anyother industries, the very specialized focus of a Master of Science degree makes most sense. If I were 23 years old and didn' have this much specific background in one thing then I would opt for the MBA with a concentration, which is more generalized, appliable to a wide range of industries, therefore having a much wider array of future opportunities. I am in process of interviewing GMU and JHU MSRED programs by meeting with the Executive Directors, sitting in on courses, speaking with alumni, etc. Naturally, both program have their advantages/disadvantages, so I have defined criteria and am associating priority levels to each. I hope to make a final determination by end of February. Thank you for the feedback!
Hi, I would need a direction from you as I am in a very similar situation like you. The difference is that i have a lot less experience in our Architectural profession then you. I am working from last 12+ years as an Architect and am 35 years old. At this time, I am kind of tired of Architecture and its low salary structure with so much of work and stress load. I am honestly making $90,000 at my 12th year and dont see myself $120K+ in next 5 or even 10 years for sure. But i would like to be at that level and thought MBA or a MSRED would be a great option, instead of going for the Architectural Registration. However i like finance & real estate but not really in love with Architecture at all. So i am open to pursue any other like a general MBA as well. One big Problem is GMAT, after 12 years of disconnect from education, plus the high expenses of MBA. I would like to know that pursuing an MSRED would really give a substantial career move or a general MBA / MBA in finance is the only option. What direction you suggest and could you name any good programs in New York area. I would really appreciate your comments. Thank you.
Best of luck !
MSRE/D vs MBA for real estate acquisitions career (Originally Posted: 06/11/2014)
Hi all, I'm considering pursuing a graduate degree to break into real estate, particularly in acquisitions/Asset Management role. I have a 3.6 gpa from a top 50 business undergrad and a 730 GMAT. Im looking at the MSRE from NYU as well as the MSRED and MBA programs at Columbia. Does anyone have any experience from one of these programs? what would you recommend?
I work at a major REPE company and I'd def say MBA (in terms of hiring).
You can always take the MSRED classes at Columbia (if you do Columbia MBA) to supplement your track if needed.
For full disclosure, I had that choice and I opted to for the MBA at Columbia (class of '16)
Thanks for the response, I also have very little work experience in real estate, just a summer internship at a family-run (not my family) non-brand name pere firm. Started my own retail business and sold it after 4 years. would that change your advice? based on your experience what kind of jobs do you think id be able to get after MBA vs MSRED Columbia?
If anything I think that would push you more towards MBA - the MSRED classes are very specific and technical. the MBA will give you a broader spectrum of classes, and has more prestige behind it.
WSO Rookie!: MBA vs MSRE/MRED Path (Originally Posted: 03/11/2014)
Hey everyone,
After days and possibly weeks of research and mixed reviews I was able to put together what I believe is the consensus and wanted to get some opinions on the subject.
My career path is to become a commercial real estate developer/investor and am looking for the best path in order to accomplish that goal, whether it be a top MBA program or a MSRE/MRED.
For some background, I'm 23 years old and graduated Dec. 2013 with a major in finance from the University of Central Florida. GPA is 3.4 and my gmat score was a disappointing 570. I have been working with my Dad for 6 months who is a commercial real estate developer/investor for his own company. I also already have my RE license and have taken one (1) and plan on taking my second Certified Commercial Investment Member (CCIM) course in the approaching couple months, which is the premier designation within the commercial real estate field.
From what I've been reading i heard that you should try and get into the absolute best MBA program you can (top 25/50; regardless if they have a RE concentration) or one of the top tier MSRE/MRED programs if the top MBA isn't achievable. The top tier MSRE/MRED programs from my research are (in no specific order) MIT, USC, Cornell, Columbia, NYU John Hopkins and Georgetown (IF ANY OTHERS PLEASE ADD).
Long story short I'm seeking for advice on which path to take between the MBA and MSRE/MRED. I'm coming to the realization that due to my lack of experience I'm going to have to retake the GMAT which I'm confident I can score atleast a 620 and probably higher than that. I'm just no sure any of the top 25 or even 50 MBA programs will accept me or even give me a fighting chance due to my lack of experience. Seems that some of the top tier MSRE/MRED programs don't require work experience or a tleast not as extensive as the MBA's. If i wait to apply in the coming fall i will have a little over a year (1 yr and 3 months give or take) of experience but again not sure that is adequate for the top level MBA programs (maybe even for the top tier MSRE/MRED programs).
Again any advice and personal experiences would be greatly appreciated.
Regardless of which path you take, I think you need more work experience. You even said so yourself. It's not just a check the box for getting into a school, but in my experience, going to graduate school (whether MBA or MSRE) is much more beneficial when you have experience and skills behind you. Not sure why you're in such a rush.
I'd also hone your long-term goals. The investment side differs from the development side, and which program you choose (MBA/MSRE/MSRED/MRED) may depend on that.
And raise that gmat score. Much more than 620.
Good luck.
You should use the search bar....there are numerous posts that are almost identical to this. You might get a better response in the real estate forum as well.
@"kjl" : Yes I definitely want to raise my GMAT as high as possible. Also understand where you are coming from in regards to the work experience my thoughts were that I'm already in the school frame of mind and feel that it would be easier to continue my course work now as oppose to 3-5 years down the road.
@pe_re24 : I have seen those threads and read through them however i felt like i would be able to get more help if I went ahead and started my own thread? not sure if that is true or not. Would you recommend switching this into the real estate forum category?
Thanks for the responses guys
MBA or MSRE (Originally Posted: 07/19/2012)
Let's say that I want to maybe some day be one of the best real estate investors in the world. I could expound on this at length, but it would take up a ton of space, so I'll keep it short.When I take a shit I close my eyes and think about RE
OK so what should I do. Last Friday I worked 12 hours, was out drinking until 3am, and woke up in 2 hours to run a 10k race. I don't know what's wrong with me. I will probably die by the time I'm 50. But I have plenty of drive and zero of connections. I am the only one in my family with even a college degree. I have about a year of work experience, but it's more in software development. My background is actually more in finance, I just taught myself a lot of tech stuff while in school (3.6 GPA in computer science and EE classes, but knew I wanted to work in finance and real estate so majored in that).
MBA, MSRE? CFA. I studied for maybe 150 hours over several months and took a CFA practice test and scored a 72% which seemed pretty easy. I know saying that's easy will anger people, but should I do the CFA? It's not that expensive and at least shows work ethic, which I have gobbs of. I need to find out how to get my foot in the door somewhere as an acquisitions analyst. Should I drop 50k++ on a full-time MBA or something? MSRE better? Transitioning to a strong role in CRE finance sounds hard. I want to make calculated moves, not shots in the dark.
Edited some for brevity's sake
Regarding the MBA vs. MSRE- There are several threads on here already discussing that, which you should check out. I will say this though, general consensus has seemed to be top MBA > MSRE Regarding CFA, through some RE informationals I've had, I've gotten the impression it's marginally helpful at best. It's more of an ER, AM type of thing. Showing interest is never bad, but the CFA is a wayyyy over elaborate way to do so unless you're aiming for the previously mentioned industries, imo. Edit: I'll take this last part off for you, lol.
Dude, this is the 2nd overly dramatic, overly wordy thread you've started. If you can't network your way in, you're going to have to go back to school and then try again.
If you have the time and the money for the CFA, do it...it can't hurt you.
As for school, I would say the MBA>MSRE...especially if you find an MBA program that has a RE concentration or electives. Your best bet for success would be to get into a solid RE analyst role for a couple years before b-school, but I realize that's easier said than done.
An MBA wouldn't be a bad way to go but that will partly depend on where you could get in.
Maybe study a bit more for the CFA and take level 1 all while searching for the RE positions that interest you. Depending on how long you've been at your current position (2+ years), you could scratch the CFA part, for now, and focus on the GMAT, see what score you get and what schools that would make you competitive for. If you do well, and have the requisite work experience, you could apply to schools in the first and second rounds this year and matriculate in the Fall of 2013.
The key here, as is with many of life's endeavors, is running parallel processes. Time is short and shouldn't be wasted, so you have to multitask your life decisions. Pursue all paths at this point, assuming you have the time, and then choose to focus more on one or the other as you see fit. If you are getting little-to-no traction with RE analyst positions, then focus more on the GMAT and make that your number 1 escape plan. If you are getting interviews, etc. for FT RE positions then focus on that and polishing your shortcomings. If you don't have great work experience at this point and the job search doesn't pan out then plug along with the CFA, study for the GMAT and then plan to go to b-school when you've got the experience needed to get into the school(s) you are looking at.
Regards
+1
Thanks for the thoughtful post. Been doing some GMAT studying :)
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