Is it possible for an Indian to pursue consulting in Germany/France?
I'm an Indian who has been living in the US for a while and currently attend a T20 for undergraduate. It seems that immigrating to the US is extremely hard given the H1B lottery system and the wait after it. As a gay guy, immigration to a friendly nation is one of my goals and non-marriage based immigration to the US seems quite difficult for an Indian.
Is it worth it to learn German/French and do graduate school in Germany/France and aim for a job in the respective country? I already speak a little French (had an AP score of 4 two years ago), but am willing to learn German since the market is bigger and more lucrative. Or is it better to stick with the US? I can also go to other countries like UK or Canada but both those markets are much smaller and competitive compared to the US, and Australia doesn't seem to recruit international students. I'm open to other friendly countries and careers in finance or data science, product also.
bump
Not in consulting but a lot of my friends are in MBB. You will struggle in France as they hire from their best schools and normally just the white kids with heritage and connections. Germany I’m not sure. London is certainly a lot more open and I personally know over 10 Indians that work in MBBs here. Bar is still quite high but it’s possible at least. And for the record all the people I know did and MBA. Not sure what is is like to recruit otherwise.
what about t2 consulting? i've heard that's much easier in europe and pay is decent.
i'll be doing a masters in finance/management or something related after graduation. i could do that in us or europe. so i'll be recruiting from those programs.
i've looked into london but i don't know if it's as easy to get into a uk target school since they're much stricter on gpa. and wages aren't as good either given how expensive london is. although if i apply to european schools, i'll most likely apply to some in the uk also.
Not sure about T2. Sorry. Have you thought of Netherlands? Looked way more immigration friendly for professional jobs than France. Also Luxembourg but not sure they have consulting firms there.
Also Dubai. Lots of businesses there, great pay, no taxes. Lots of indians too. I heard Indians are a bit discriminated there, but you can still live well and make good money. Bear in mind moving from Dubai to Europe is very hard.
Dubai would have been a great option if I wasn't gay lol
Here someone from Berlin, Germany.
I’m currently recruiting for t3 so I think I know enough (also about MBB and t2) to help you out. So I try to break down the most important information from what I’ve heard. (Please excuse my bad English since I’m German).
What I don’t know since I live in Germany how difficult it is to get a visa and so on so that’s maybe the most important thing. I hope I could help. Don’t hesitate and ask if you have any further questions. (Also don’t get confused by risk controller. I’m lateraling from a bank to financial services consulting.)
Thanks for the detailed reply. Definitely answered a lot of my questions.
Lifestyle in Germany seems just as good as US if not better so I am not really against moving to Germany. Good weather, higher salaries compared to most of europe, easy travel access, and easy to immigrate to.
I am aware a lot of MiM/MSF are in english. But since a lot of them are <= 2 years, I am not sure if that's enough to be at an advanced skill level in speaking German. What level of German is usually expected from foreigners applying to consulting jobs in Germany?
Also, just out of curiosity, how easy is it to break into T2/T3 consulting from one of the high ranked public universities in Germany? Private schools like WHU seem much more expensive.
I would say the the majority of master Programms irrelevant if public or private last 2 years. I actually don’t know how well you could learn German in 2 years. I would say this depends on your willingness to learn and if your gifted or not. If you constantly go out meet new people and take courses that most universities offer than you will speak well enough if not things can be tricky especially if you consider that German is seen as a quite complex language to learn.
I think for most roles especially in big firms you need solid German language skills but I would bet that they are vacancies that only require English at all since in big firms the working language is English and your coworkers are not only Germans.
Regarding your question to t2/t3 and public universities. Firstewall t2 is in Germany nearly t1 so the difference to t3 is much bigger. I come from a public school with relativ okay grades (special Programm so a little different but that is another story) and I still can do t3 but for t2 I would say very good grades and engagement and also internships are required (business background not sciences if you do that in undergrad whole different story). But you’re from the us/India so you fit in the countless diversity Programms so you should have a little advantage with that and also through your international experience you have what many t2 firms want and for example I don’t have.
To conclude t3=easy t2/MBB = nearly same profiles and tends to be difficult but doable. (And big 4 also easy and seen lateraling people even from big 4 tas to Bain).
You should be close to native to work in consulting and well familiar with the German culture since you will likely be the only foreigner working in a team where everyone was borned and raised in Germany
Honestly, especially at McK I have never seen such a success story, so if you are really motivated you will be the first and only one to make it in history up to that moment
If you focus on the UK where it is more expat friendly or the Emirates I think you are going to have much better odds since the higher number of expat success stories in comparison to Germany where they are few or non-existant
It’s still a closed minded country that I can ensure you, will not go far with this mentality. And you see it already in the bad performance of the German car industry, part of the very German identity and Germany’s piece de resistance
Homogeneous teams are cancer and I would recommend any foreigner(but also ambitious people) to stay away from them, since they cause stagnation, there are extensive academic studies done by Harvard, Yale etc about this too
Hi you seem to have a lot of information, I've been trying to find all of this for the longest time but it's hard especially because I don't speak german, Is it okay If I PM you for some advice
Do you know many success stories of internationals who broke into consulting in Germany?
You can judge if it is easier to break in the US or Germany as a foreigner on the basis of the success stories that made it
If you see many foreigners who broke in, then it’s good. If not it is better to avoid since it means your odds are small as a foreigner in either country
Everyone can then make their own counting, I don’t say anything more…
Regarding the visa issue, you're in for a ride.
I recently tried to help some friends of friends, who studied in Paris and Maastricht, who seek to move to Germany.
In general, Germany has a policy whereby firms have fill out a monster of document and explain, why they're hiring a foreigner over a local, even if it makes sense, position hasn't been filled for some time etc.
Most firms only offer visas for higher positions but not necessarily for entry (the one from Paris was top undergrad in China, decent in Paris for graduate, now struggling). In her specific case, she already has a visa for France (which according to her was quite easy to obtain, same for Netherlands). However, as she's trying to move over here, she gets told, she'll have to drop her French visa and take a German search visa. This allows you a 1 year stay to find a stable job (as far as I'm aware). If she fails, she's screwed, if she succeeds, bureaucracy struggle goes on.
Next, one T2 firm told her, the visa would cost them 10-12k EUR, thereby they'd deduct it from her salary, which depending on the city can suck (as someone mentioned Berlin / Munich have ridiculous rents for German standard), for other cities it can be okay, especially since you get your foot into the door and can later on switch.
Ironically, it costs HR on average 10-25k EUR on average to fill a spot (would have to look up report for exact number). Other firms are often hesitant due to language barrier.
The one from Maastricht is focussing on supply chain, which is in great demand. Benefit of being considered diversity, she targets the Big 4, T2/3 consulting and public ones, as she has the best experience with these by far for now. Same issue with language barrier though as they seem to emphasise it a lot for most roles here (she's on B1 so they're not too worried).
In Frankfurt, especially finance, firms seem to be a bit more laid back from what I've seen. Else target start ups. They could either try to hire directly or offer you a remote probation and then visa after (you could try to negotiate that kind of deal, worked for another one).
Overall, it's an uphill battle vs bureaucracy as they're slow af and barely digitalised, so prepare for the worst.
PS: there's a large Indian firm, focussed on marketing, which are currently building their German ops. Last time I spoke to one of them for other reasons, one mentioned they're currently 5 people, head is an Indian as well. Maybe via networking it will work. At least for the others networking provided most success so far.
Best of luck.
Edit: there are many good public ones, who'll be fine for you here (WHU good for entrepreneurs, FSFM for finance, EBS ???), public ones like LMU/TU, RWTH, Cologne, Leipzig, HHL etc also have often times solid alumni networks (not like the US but you can check it out via LinkedIn to see for yourself).
Thanks for the detailed response.
I've heard about German bureaucracy. To be honest, it doesn't seem much worse compared to the US. Most firms in US don't offer OPT/CPT sponsorship for international students at analyst level either, and once sponsored it's not easy to land H1-B. And after the H1-B, it seems to take 10+ years to get permanent residency based on job visa in the US, whereas it seems much faster in Germany (like 4 years). So it doesn't seem horrible.
And I do see lots of people from public schools at consulting firms in Germany on LinkedIn. So to me I am unsure if it justifies the vast difference in price to go to a private school.
Most welcome, mate.
I agree, the US has a very strict system while at the same time just like Germany keeps it’s borders partially open (another topic to discuss) and one should just go that route.
But as said, German bureaucrats can be a pain in the butt and you’ve to be prepared for slow things and worst case (very, very rare) loose your visa.
The private ones (EBS/WHU/FSFM/HHL) offer a good Alumni Network, no doubt about it, but as you’ve seen yourself it’s not the end of world if you attend a good public one. Usually, the level of education provided at the public ones is quite good and the firms get solid candidates, so the cost is vastly lower. Some firms have a pre-selected target pool and hire mostly from these ones, but most will take you from a public one without a doubt (e.g., Mannheim is the best / one of the best (debatable) public university for business, strong network and alumni). So if you can afford to spend the money, do it, but else you won’t feel that much difference. Also, some of the universities like WHU are at the end of the world (remotely speaking), while TU Munich grants you an awesome time, lots of firms around to network with and the benefit of surrounding countries.
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