Please analyze my chances to get into a top 10 B-School!
Hi can you guys give me an opinion on my chances to enter into a top 10 MBA, (and then land an i-banking job)
I am currently 23 years old and just want to enter the investment banking world ASAP.
Stats:
Work experience,1 MONTH, should have 3 when I apply to schools. (not finance related)
Prior work experience while attending school (don't know if it counts??) (no internship at all, just random odd jobs)
UG: 3.54 Actuarial Science, from a State school
GRE:
Q: 166 (94th percentile)
V: 166 (96th percentile)
W: not known yet
Miscellaneous:
I have passed two actuarial exams, they are HARD, so maybe that counts and maybe should be included in my application?'
Held some extracurricular positions throughout college.
High school: Got medals in physics and chemistry Olympiads.
I speak four languages
Schools I intend to apply: (if you could give me a relative chance of getting into one compared to others I would greatly appreciate it!)
Harvard
Stanford
UC Berkeley
Chicago Booth
Northwestern Kellog
MIT
Wharton
Finally, any top 20 school?
I know that the typical MBA candidate has had some years of work experience, but is it possible for me to get into a top MBA school, and if I graduate with it, will I be able to land an Associate position right after getting my MBA, provided I get an internship and maintain good grades.
Will working 1 or 2 years before applying to B-School help my chances to get into it?
Best,
A Monkey In Need
Basically zero chance. To get into a traditional MBA program at a top school, you need more than 3 months work exp.
I generally agree with you, but I know a guy who went to HBS with essentially no work experience (other than some really good internships) out of Virginia Tech. It's definitely doable now that Harvard has gone extremely young (one of the reasons I respect it a lot less).
To the OP, I highly recommend you take the GMAT--while the GRE is accepted by many MBA programs, from what I understand, the GMAT is preferred by adcoms. All else being equal, they will take the guy with the GMAT.
I'm sure there have been cases, like the one you speak of (a top graduating senior from a very good science/engineering school). And perhaps these cases are becoming more common. That said, I was simply providing a realistic handicap of his chances--they're not good, and likely lower (a guess) than the typical applicant. But as you illustrated, it's a non-zero probability.
It could also be that he did the 2+2 program, which is essentially early admission to HBS. From what I've gathered, some kids don't really take the two years between b-school and undergrad to seriously once they get in, and choose to pursue "fun" careers, like being a chef.
OP, top schools who do take on people with little work experiences want to take kids who have solid internships (BB IBD, MBB) or did an amazing feat (e.g., started a non-profit). Simply having an internship for 1 month and "odd jobs" (I took this to mean things like babysitting, yard work, but correct me if I'm wrong) will not cut it.
Approximately 0.00%
You have essentially zero chance of getting into a top-10 school with no real work experience. There is only one person in my class that I know of who came directly from school and he was in a PhD program at an ultra-elite program.
Work some more and plan to matriculate when you have 3-5 years of work experience.
I am 23 and want to get into Ibanking asap as well, but I know that top 10 MBA programs are going reject me without proper work experience. There are of course exceptions and honestly I don't see you being one.
You might get better responses on Beatthegmat.com or Gmatclub.com but I am sure the response will be similar to WSO.
unless you are the real Confucius you have 0.000001% change. But seriously? Are you trollin?
First of all, thanks for the responses. Second I am not trolling. It is just that an actuary job pays low 60k as entry level and only increases slowly by passing exams and working. I might come across as greedy but I want to make big bucks, that's all.
Are my GPA and GRE scores good enough? Those are the things that are pretty much set in stone right now... If it takes me 2 or 3 years of work experience to be considered.... so be it.
Your GPA is fine. As someone mentioned, consider taking the GMAT and aim to exceed the schools' medians (~720).
Actuarial science isn't an easy subject to study, and given your background, I think you've done fairly well for yourself. So, well done. However, B-schools prefer the GMAT, so as DCDep mentioned, take that exam. My guess is if you get a good gmat score and show good progression in your actuarial career (3-4 years), you'll be competitive for a top ~16 MBA (given the appropriate story, ECs, etc...).
For the record, I think actuarial careers get undersold here as they have excellent future job prospects with good pay and solid life balance. But best of luck on your i-banking quest.
Troll
I agree with a lot of the things above. However, you should be aware that the path you're on now will likely result in a rejection from all of the M7 schools (in my opinion). Your GPA is solid, but below school averages and from a less prestigious university. Your work experience as an actuary is similarly solid, but does not make you stand out. Passing the actuarial tests, while difficult, falls in the "work success" category and will not give you a significant boost. Even if you scored an 800 on the GMAT, that can only distinguish you so much these days with b-school medians of 730. While four languages is exceptional, I really don't see much about your profile that will stand out in 3-5 years when you should apply and matriculate. I think you should get started on some very impactful extracurriculars if you're dead-set on going to a top school.
Just do an MSF... worked for me
Ok I have some differing views about my chances: @Compbanker, you are telling me that I have no chance even in three or five years given my stats? What I see from some M7 schools is an average of 3.4 to 3.6 GPA and lower GRE/gmat score than mine... Is it really that impossible for me to get into a top B-school?
First, what you don't see are the stats of the students that DON'T get in. It is easy to think that if you match the stats of the students that get in, you'll get in as well. However, that's not the case. While the Median GMAT may be 730 and the average GPA a 3.6 GPA, unless you know the stats of the rejected students too, you have no idea how much weight the stats hold. Don't fall victim to the flawed logic that matching stats equals acceptance.
Yes, there are some kids in top b-schools that appear to be unimpressive when viewed through the lens of WSO. However, everyone values different experiences in different ways. Your classmate may have only achieved a 3.0 GPA, but he probably was the first one in his family to attend college and did it while working three side jobs to feed his family when his parents lost their jobs. The reality is that people get in for different reasons, but there are very few people who get in without some sort of edge. The traditional way to evaluate that edge may be a flawless academic record or tremendous career success. But the edge could be overcoming overwhelming odds, rallying people for a cause, or influencing others to donate to a charity. AdComs evaluate success very differently than we are used to in the business world.
I think you need to look at your own profile and ask yourself: Why would I get admitted over four other applicants (assuming 20% acceptance rate)? If you can't come up with a compelling reason why you should be admitted, odds are the AdCom definitely won't either.
The funny thing about business school admissions is that I've yet to see more than a handful of resumes that I've found that impressive. Darden, Georgetown, HBS, etc. post resumes of their recent or current graduates and the majority of resumes are pretty blasé. When 25-years-old, for the most part, there's an upward limit to the things one can accomplish.
@"DCDepository", are my stats in line with those that you consider bland and unimpressive? Will retaking the GRE or taking the GMAT improve my chances?
Let me say that CompBanker is a site guru--in fact, he's either gained admission to or is just about to start at a top MBA program. I would take his advice very seriously. With that said, I've seen very little that is particularly impressive (and I know a bunch of MBAs in my industry--none of them have anything phenomenal in their background)--if I were you I would google "MBA resume books" or something along those lines; they are typically publicly posted. I think you will be shocked at how "mainstream" most of the resumes are. Those admitted obviously had great essays and recommendations that set them apart.
Basically what @CompBanker said.
I recently got accepted to a top 15 MBA program, and I'll admit that on first glance, my resume doesn't stand out too much. I didn't go to an ivy, and graduated with a 2.75 GPA. I took the GMAT and got a 690 - with a Q45. My first job was at a place that no one reading this is even aware exists. My current job is at a nice shop, but I wouldn't call it prestigious. That said, I have lots of other things going for me that obviously helped set me apart in MBA admissions.
The short answer is, no one can really say what your odds will be. I will say that having basically 0 work experience won't get you in anywhere. Your profile is fairly "meh", and the kids that get in to the 2+2 type programs are genuine rockstars. You are not that. That doesn't mean you won't be good down the road in 4 years or so, but as of right now your chance is approaching 0 at the schools you listed. I would work on finding out what makes you desirable to MBA programs. Maybe you have a cool non-profit you started, or have a side company you're working on. Maybe you are a champion of some obscure sport or have a unique talent. Business schools want successful leaders. Leadership can be gained just about anywhere, and success comes in various forms, and for MBA admissions is not measured the way this board tends to measure it. Good luck.
Great advice. Would you mind sharing some of the things you have going for you? If it's personal then it's no big deal but I'm sure it would be helpful to people who read it today or in 5 years when the topic is searched.
Really good stuff Hamm. I completely agree with you. I also recently got into multiple M7 schools with subpar stats, but definitely had some other things going for me. One was extras, which I'll touch on below, and two was a cohesive story that actually made sense. Talking to numerous other applicants this year, I have seen a consistent link between a good, sensible story and acceptances. This may sound obvious, but it's honestly amazing how little thought some people put into this, given how important it is. Part of the reason why work experience is important for admissions is not just because of what you will have accomplished, proving to them that you are a successful person, but also because it actually gives you time to figure out what you want. In your case, you're currently an actuary (I barely know what that is), and you want to be an investment banker. Okay, but why? How does that make sense? How does your background and current experience tie into your desire for business school and banking, besides for just wanting to make money? Figure this out, and start crafting your profile to fit.
As for my extras, which, along with really strong execution in general, I think got me in. First of all, I was a varsity captain in college, which helps, and had some very good success stories to tell about that. Second, I raised a bunch of money ($100k+) for an inner city sports organization that I'd been involved with for awhile. This is important because not only was it a good accomplishment, but it tied to my past (athlete) and future goals (to work in sports), while proving my ability to contribute to organizations that I believe in and have been a part of for a long time. Third, a few months before applying, I joined a new non-profit as a board member and treasurer. This also tied my past (accounting major, started as an auditor, now a CFO-consultant) to my future goals (strategic decision maker), which is what board members at non-profits do.
In the end, and I've said this a bunch since I got in places, is that I did NONE of these things for b-school. This are all things I believe in and wanted to do on my own. Sure, b-school was a good kick in the ass to think about getting involved, but my extras actually mattered to me. I got good advice when I was first thinking about applying a couple years ago when I asked someone what I should do for community work. He said don't just join stuff for the sake of joining it, but pick the one or two things that you've been meaning to get involved with since college and actually do them. Odds are those things will fit with your story and will be a lot more cohesive than just doing a random fundraiser.
Anyway, I am just one person with one experience. At the same time, I am definitely one of those people that will be in a resume book next year that doesn't look that impressive, so some of what I did to get into three out of five schools can probably be helpful for some people.
Great question - and no idea what the answer is. Someone who's already in school may be able to verify a background check or something like that, but not sure how far they actually go. I assume a background check only verifies things like actual employment history and degrees, not fluffier extra stuff. Also, like many, I'm sure I embellished my roles a bit - was I really the key contributor to the business plan for the new non-profit or was I simply a sounding board that provided a bit of advice? Hard to say, and impossible to define, but that's also how the process sort of goes.
That being said, I personally thought about making my stories real, and tried to point to tangible outcomes/names in my essays and interviews.For example, the fundraising I did was for the opening of a specific facility, which I named and is very easy to find on Google, should an AdCom member want to verify it.
I also think that depending on the school, the interview can weed out a lot of embellishment. At Sloan, they seem to be keenly aware that people embellish, which is why their behavioral interview is so detailed. I trusted their process the most because my interviewer had actually read my essays (one of which as about the above fundraising), and had specific questions about it. Sure, if you're a damn good liar you could handle it, but I think they are pretty good at asking enough questions to verify the authenticity of the stories (or at least I felt that way).
Excellent insight. Thanks for the responses. Very valuable to any future readers.
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