Transfer Decision Help! UIUC or UMich or UNC?

Hi everyone,

I am a sophomore trying to break into IB. Now I have been admitted as a transfer student by UIUC college of business and UMich Econ, and the decision from UNC Econ will come out soon. If I go to UMich, I wouldn't apply to ROSS again since it would take me six year to finish my undergrad. But if I go to UNC, then I would apply to Kenan-Flagler and try to graduate in three years. I heard UNC-KF prefer students who enroll unc as their first college to those who transfer into unc from other colleges. (Is it true? How much chance do I have?). So, which school would you guys suggest?

Also, I am from HK, though I no problem with conversing in English lol. I see UIUC has a strong presence in IB's Chicago office. But what's the difference between working in NYC office and in Chicago office? And, what's the difference in exit opportunities if I would finally go back to HK to work in Asset Management?

I would appreciate your honest responses very much. Thanks for your time!

 

Hi, are you from the northeast? I am in a northeastern college right now. How do you feel about the southern lifestyle and business scene in general? Plus, how good is the placement of KF at NYC IB? I am concerned that firms in Charlotte won't be willing to sponsor international students.

 

I am from the Northeast (NYC area). There was definitely a little bit of culture shock for me at first. My sister experienced a bit of culture shock at Duke, too (which is surprising because people assume Duke is mostly New Jerseyans). It's important to branch out on campus, which I failed to do for much of my first year.

I myself don't have personal experiences with Kenan-Flagler recruiting yet (applying for it this summer), but one of my parents is an ex-Wall Street university executive and has asked around about the different schools at UNC. Kenan-Flagler definitely has a large advantage over Arts and Sciences, and Wells Fargo and Bank of America are two of the largest employers upon graduation. Based on what I've heard and read on here, UNC Kenan-Flagler is a target for Charlotte banking and a semi-target for New York, just below the level of schools like UVA and Michigan, but probably a little bit better than Vanderbilt and William and Mary.

UNC's economics department is trying to improve its recruiting by holding its own career fairs and jobs panels through the relatively young Economics Club, and while some econ grads find work in IB it definitely seems like it would be harder. The entrepreneurship minor is an interesting path the department also offers, which is not open to business majors.

Edit: I forgot to respond to your question about being an international student. There is a sizable contingent of international students here, mostly from Asia, so you will definitely be able to find people with whom you can relate. Being a junior, you would be at the stage where most people outgrow the fraternity scene. The bars in Chapel Hill on Franklin Street provide a pretty hip environment if you're into that, and Carrboro is an eclectic city nearby. The area is pretty liberal but the business school is definitely a bastion of conservatism at UNC. There's a lot here for everyone.

As for firms sponsoring international students, that's not really something I'd know. I haven't run into people down here that seem prejudiced, but I don't know the Charlotte area too well. Maybe somebody else on here would have an answer.

 

Has IB recruiting at UIUC really fallen off that much? It used to be that 15-20 kids would get IB offers between NYC and Chicago. That was typically out of a pool of about 30 that would get on-campus interviews. Every BB, expect MS, would usually take a couple of kids. What has changed?

 

Interesting - there used to be a couple of engineering students per year at UIUC who would make it into banking as well. I' a grad and ran the recruiting team for UIUC at a BB for 3 years so I'm mostly just curious.

 

So I went to UIUC, my brother studied in the college of business there, and I have some tangential familiarity with UMich as a Big Ten alumnus who was thrilled to work with the occasional UMich alumn in NYC.

If you had gotten into Ross, I'd be telling you to go to UMich. But you got into Econ at UMich and the alternative is the College of Business (read: #2 Accy program in the country) at UIUC.

I think UIUC and UMich both have similar upper tails here if you want to do banking (and don't derive a lot of utility from working at the Fed or econ consulting). I also think that the median and worse-case outcomes are better if you're a CPA than if you're an economist. So in other words, I think there's a strong case that UIUC Accy stochastically dominates UMich Econ. That is, if we represented UMich and UIUC as the roll of a six sided dice, UIUC's #1,2,3,4,5, and 6 would each be as good as or better than UMich's #1,2,3,4,5 and 6. This has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the students at UMich Econ (I've actually found Econ majors to be quite smart) and everything to do with job prospects upon graduation.

The median- perhaps even pessimistic side of median- outcome out of UIUC accounting is landing at a Big 4 firm. After a few years there, you'd have the ability to do an MBA and pursue a role in banking or perhaps as the CFO for a smaller firm. The tail case is landing at Citi or GS, both of whom recruit at UIUC for IBD positions. As we get to the thicker portion of the tail, William Blair, RW Baird, and a lot of other MM firms also recruit at UIUC. I don't think it's much better at UMich non-Ross.

The difference is marginal.

The difference is by no means big enough to change your decision if you have a career preference about Accy vs. Econ.

The difference would get completely blown out of the water by in-state vs. out-of-state tuition.

But the difference is there with reasonably high confidence. Actually, Accy gives you better outcomes than Econ in general between similar schools, although it's mostly from the center and lower tail of the distribution.

I don't have as good an answer on UNC.

 

Thanks for your time! The accountancy program is truly my reason to apply to UIUC. But my ultimate career destination will be at HK, and HK(PRC)'s accounting rules and business scenes differ from U.S. So, what would be the real ROI on the accountant job?

 
MelJacket:

Thanks for your time! The accountancy program is truly my reason to apply to UIUC. But my ultimate career destination will be at HK, and HK(PRC)'s accounting rules and business scenes differ from U.S. So, what would be the real ROI on the accountant job?

Are you required to go back?

Why not work in the US at a CPA firm for a few years, gain some international experience here, get a Wharton MBA, and go back as a banker in ~5 years?

The big CPA firms can get you an H1B if you want to stay here.

Look, financial reporting is all converging to IFRS. If you work in audit, and you know IFRS, even if the PRC doesn't follow it, there will be other countries in Asia that will, many with HK subsidiaries that need to normalize to IFRS, and you may be able to specialize in those accounts out of a Big Four HK office. Your US education would create even more synergies for handling the international accounts.

***For the record, I am not an accountant. I do come from a family of CPAs, but I may be talking completely out of my rear when it comes to accounting in HK. I recommend talking to someone at the HK office of a Big Four firm.

But you came to the US for several years for undergrad anyways- why not also get some US work experience before you go back? Intl experience, especially if you don't plan on working in an economy like the US, is key for a lot of business careers. You will want to know how to work with Westerners.

 

I am happy with the education I received at my current college. The problem I have is that most kids here don't want to do finance neither the school tries to send its student into finance industry. I see that you are also a international student. What would you say about the UMich Econ in the career perspective?

 

I'm with IlliniProgrammer, but that's more of my personality. Going with UIUC is a hedge--assuming you are a pretty good student, getting an accounting degree (and possibly an MA in accounting) from UIUC pretty much guarantees you a well respected role at a prestigious firm right out of college that would set you up very well for a top MBA program, at which point you can transition to anything you want in business--IBD, PE, VC, etc. (whatever recruits your MBA program). If investment banking is your goal then there is a 90% chance you're going to get an MBA no matter where you go. Econ majors will have a much more difficult task in securing elite pre-MBA roles than an accounting graduate from what is widely understood as the top one or two accounting programs in North America.

In other words, UIUC accounting is a perfect hedge. Michigan econ is a gamble--in fact, as IlliniProgrammer points out, it's difficult to see where the gamble has greater upside.

 

UIUC as everyone has said is really known for its accounting program. I went to UNC KF so I don't know a whole lot about Michigan. UNC econ kids don't get the same exposure as KF kids do but I have heard that Michigan Econ kids do get good exposure. Best option to hedge your bets would be obviously as international studying accounting at UIUC. It is a lot easier to find jobs for accounting kids than finance kids.

HK BB IBD is dominated by local kids and kids from schools like Wharton, LSE, Stanford. I tried to break in there once for internships and found it to be harder than in the US. So, I don't think any of these schools will help you really back home.

Seriously, thinking over the question I am going to amend my original asnwer and say that UIUC business school would be the best choice. Majoring in finance and accounting, you should be in the running for many TAS, Valuation jobs at the Big 4 so you don't just have to be content with Audit/Tax.

I don't know how you realized that I am international but I have decided to leave the States after a year at a MM IBD. IBD hours are just not for me also neither am I very competitive nor really that interested in making a shit ton of money. So, take what I say with a grain of salt. Good luck.

 

I was thinking about transaction services and M&A also. I hope UIUC do have a solid placement in this specific field. As you said, it's a good hedge. But if I only got tax/audit job at U.S, I don't think its return on my future career will be as good as the return on a same job in PRC or HK.

 

You've obviously already made up your mind. You're not really considering UIUC or starting in accounting, so why are you even asking these questions? You're 19-years-old and seem to know everything about international finance. So go ahead and go to Michigan or UNC and let's see how much you really know.

 

LOL I'm 28 and don't know the first thing about international finance or accounting. So lets not be too harsh.

I will say that OP seems to have his mind made up on UMich, despite the fact that the median accountant has a much better life than the median Econ major, probably in HK even with a US education, too.

Last I checked (a few years ago) UIUC had a slightly higher US News overall undergraduate rank than UMich. It caught me by surprise because UMich has historically been about 10 places ahead of most other Big Ten schools, and I'm not sure the rank has stayed that way. But the bottom line is that UIUC has an exceptional international reputation, especially in business and engineering. I have had Cornell alumns complain to me that UIUC has a stronger brand in Asia than their school.

OP is ignoring the opportunity to handle some pretty high profile accounts back in HK or the fact that IFRS knowledge will really help with transaction and advisory. And by ignoring the other 90% of the probability distribution and focusing on the upper tail, he's not maximizing expected utility.

I think UIUC is a clear winner on expected outcomes here. Not because the school is better or the students are smarter but because OP has a much bigger safety net with an Accy degree. This may not be what OP wants to hear, but that's my take.

 
IlliniProgrammer:

Last I checked (a few years ago) UIUC had a slightly higher US News overall undergraduate rank than UMich. It caught me by surprise because UMich has historically been about 10 places ahead of most other Big Ten schools, and I'm not sure the rank has stayed that way.

This is inaccurate. In 1996, UIUC was ranked 45th; UofM was ranked 24th. In 2000, UIUC was ranked 34th (its highest ranking in the past 2 decades) and UofM was 25th. In 2007, UIUC was 41st, and UofM was 24th. In 2014, UIUC was tied for 41st, and UofM was 28th. UofM Econ blows, btw, for IBanking placement. IP and DCdepository have it right - take the UIUC accounting or finance degree. It's super difficult to get a good banking job coming out of UofM's Econ department unless you are in a number of b-school clubs at Ross and have a high GPA (3.8+), which is pretty hard because Econ at UofM is way more difficult than the joke of a curriculum that Ross has.
"You rarely have time for everything you want in this life, so you need to make choices. And hopefully your choices can come from a deep sense of who you are." - Mister Rogers
 

DCDepository has some political views I disagree with, but he's a smart guy. I'd listen to him and just consider whether you're a little biased towards Michigan. Based on your posts, I sort of agree with him. At least that's the way you come off here.

UMich non-Ross is not Ross. The decision between UIUC and UMich is really about majors, not about schools. They are both excellent Big Ten schools, but only one is able to offer you a Finance or Accy degree.

 
Best Response

OP, I don't want to comment too much because Illini and DC have given you some solid advice and they know more than me since I'm only about to enter the working world. What I'll say about K-F, having researched the school, is this:

a. If you want to do IB, you need to get into K-F. A couple of people I've met have transferred in after coming from a CC, so it's doable if you perform well in your classes. It may take an extra term or whatever depending on what credits transfer in/when you register, but the difference between UNC econ and UNC K-F is night and day based on what I've heard.

b. DC and Illini make a very good point about the mean accountant being better off than the mean economist. However, one caveat I'd add is that most people require 5 years to be CPA-eligible anyway. Therefore, one plan of attack could be to go to Umich or UNC econ, go for IB by trying to transfer into Ross/KF. If that fails, take one more year for a accounting masters program to get started at a Big 4 and go from there. I actually applied to UNC's accounting program and met plenty of people during the visit who were UNC econ undergrads and now work at the Big 4. I'd imagine UMich has a similar setup, but I never applied there and cannot comment.

Just another thought in case it helps.

 

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