2013 Rankings
With the understanding of a few things:
1. Many trading operations are extremely different, and that is important to factor in.
2. These are subjective opinions based off of user experience.
3. Fit is usually more important than "rank".
I think it's somewhat important that people have a better idea of where they stand, given it's about that time where people have to start making decisions.
I think we should do the best we can to objectively categorize companies based off of their performance and the quality of people they attract and retain. Does everybody else agree?
That being said, the categories: (all rankings tentative until further discussion...)
Sales & Trading: Equities (and Related)
Tier 1: Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, BAML
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
Is GS still at the top here? I'm not knowledgeable in this area.
Sales & Trading: Commodities (and Related)
Tier 1: JPM, BAML, Citi, Barclays
Tier 2: Credit Suisse, Wells Fargo
Tier 3:
Sales & Trading: Credit (and Related)
Tier 1: JPM, DB, Citi, BAML
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
Hearing JPM does a lot of volume here?
Sales & Trading: Currencies (and Related)
Tier 1: Citi, Barclays, DB, maybe JPM? not sure
Tier 2: UBS, JPM, GS
Tier 3:
Sales & Trading: Rates
Tier 1: DB, CS, Citi, MS, (maybe JPM again?)
Tier 2: GS, JPM, BNP, WF
Tier 3: RBC, Nomura, RBS
Sales & Trading: Emerging Markets
Tier 1:
Tier 2: Jeffries
Tier 3:
no clue
Sales & Trading: Securitized Products
Tier 1:
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
no clue
Market Making, HFT, Statistical Arbitrage ("Quantitative Prop Shops")
Tier 1: Getco, Jane Street
Tier 2: Susquehanna International Group, Chicago Trading Company, DRW Trading...?
Tier 3:
Getco, Jane Street, Virtu...? Anybody know?
"Discretionary Prop Shops"
Tier 1: First New York Securities (???), Trillium
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
Are there any still left? lol
Physical Trading: Energy
Tier 1: BP, Vitol, Trafigura, Koch, Glencore
Tier 2: Shell, Total, Phillips 66
Tier 3: others
Remember physical trading is very niche and some small shops dominate in certain areas. Again, focus is on UG/Grad students for right now.
Physical Trading: Metals
Tier 1: Glencore, Trafigura
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
Physical Trading: Agriculture
Tier 1: Cargill, Bunge, Louis Dreyfus
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
ADM, Cargill, Koch, Bunge, Louis Dreyfus...?
i approve this
Would love to hear peoples thoughts/opinions on firms by product, have a decision to make myself soon
Strongly endorse this thread being made. I have some knowledge of some firms but not comprehensive enough for a ranking.
For equities, i think GS, MS and BAML are up there in top 3. Speaking from experience on a buyside desk
Agree with all rankings so far. Especially the ones towards the very top.
Blackhat or anyone else knowledgeable and experienced: For FICC (particularly rates, fx, or HY/distressed credit), any insight into which firms are best positioned for now/ future
This is a great thread, I hope we can fill it out a bit more.
Quoting some Greenwich Associates reports (the most recent one says that DB is number 1 in global FI, and Barclays is number 2, and I think Citi and JPM round it out):
FOREIGN EXCHANGE 2011 Global ranking by market share 1. Deutsche Bank 2. Barclays Capital 3. UBS 4. Citi 5. JPMorgan
US ranking by market share 1. Barclays Capital 2. Deutsche Bank 3. Citi 4. UBS
UNITED STATES FIXED INCOME 2012 Overall market share 1. Deutsche Bank 2. Goldman Sachs 3. Citi, JPMorgan 5. Barclays Capital, Credit Suisse
US Rates market share 1. Deutsche Bank 2. Goldman Sachs 3. Credit Suisse, Barclays Capital, Citi, JPMorgan
US Credit market share 1. Bank of America Merrill Lynch 2. JPMorgan 3. Goldman Sachs
US Emerging Markets market share 1. Barclays Capital, JPMorgan 3. Citi
US Securitized market share 1. Credit Suisse 2. Bank of America Merrill Lynch 3. Barclays Capital
GLOBAL COMMODITIES OTC 2012 Global energy, corporates, OTC derivatives market penetration 1. Barclays Capital, JPMorgan (top in service quality), Goldman Sachs (top in service quality) 4. Morgan Stanley 5. Deutsche Bank, Citi
US energy, corporates, OTC derivatives market penetration 1. JPMorgan 2. Goldman Sachs, Barclays Capital
European energy, corporates, OTC derivatives market penetration 1. Barclays Capital 2. Morgan Stanley, BNP Paribas
Ditto, Asian Pacific 1. Morgan Stanley 2. JPMorgan, Goldman Sachs, Barclays Capital
US EQUITY DERIVATIVES 2012 Options and volatility market penetration 1. Morgan Stanley, Bank of America Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs 4. Barclays, Credit Suisse 6. Deutsche Bank, Citi Top quality: BAML, DB, GS, MS
ETF market penetration 1. Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Credit Suisse 4. Bank of America Merrill Lynch, Barclays
I keep referring back to this thread
//www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/trading-rankings
When Lehman was #1.
Gelber group could fit in prop shop discretionary even though it isnt a pure discretionary shop to my knowledge.
+1 For thread
The energy is all wrong
physical or s&t? can you help clarify?
Was gonna say..
This is wrong. I don't know if this is trying to rank trading, origination, or what have you. But it is wrong.
I don't think BP should be ahead of Shell as far as physical goes. Mercuria and Gunvor can also basically be put in the same breath as Glencore/Trafi. I don't know how you should rank the majors (BP and Shell inclusive) against the pure traders, it's a somewhat different ballgame, whether you're talking about compensation, culture, funding, etc..
Hudson River Trading should be up there in the quantitative prop shops, as well as Tower Research. Also Spot Trading LLC in Chicago probably
Spot is nowhere in the same league as hudson and tower.
It's apples and oranges. Tower and HRT are almost completely algo-based firms with software developer-types running the show, whereas Spot excels in vol arb and uses some fundamental analysis. They can all be considered "quantitative prop shops" based on these groupings, but are definitely not the same type of firm.
"US Rates market share 1. Deutsche Bank 2. Goldman Sachs 3. Credit Suisse, Barclays Capital, Citi, JPMorgan"
Mostly agree, but my personal rankings based on perceived flows and tight pricing 1. DB, CS 2. BAR (just cut their head of swaps, so might drop), Citi, MS 3. GS, JPM 4. BNP, WF (up and coming), BOA 5. RBC, Nomura, RBS UBS was probably 2nd or 3rd tier, but now they basically don't exist
Nice one. From a buy side perspective, is this?
Is ranking these firms based on flow volume, market share, or tightness of pricing really indicative of which firms have the most talented/profitable traders (and consequently, which firms it would be best to join as a junior where you can learn from the rockstars on the street)?
No, not necessarily indicitive of best places to go if you are junior. Every shop has very smart people and good traders, so you will learn a lot everywhere. Also, places like GS have fewer trades, but likely make more $ per trade because their business plan isn't to capture large market share.
Can only contribute what I know from being on the buy side. But with clearing coming up and the market likely to consolidate, I wouldn't want to be caught at a bottom tier dealer and end up getting shut down. Only the largest BBs are clearing FCMs, and all others will only be able to trade through execution agreements. It is yet to be seen how buyside shops will react to this, as it is possible they will just only trade with shops that are FCMs.
For fixed income and equity markets a lot of it depends on who your coverage is. Any firm can trade equities, and trade them well, the key is to have a salesman/trader who can get stuff done. Same with fixed income, you want someone who knows what you are looking for in the primary and secondary markets. There is no use in using a big name firm with a lot of respect if they are not showing you what you want. As a buy side trader, you go to whoever best suits your strategy. If you like to buy 500m-2MM pieces of Investment Grade paper, every firm on the street will have something to show you. The key is to find out which firm shows you the most value. It's obviously much different for derivatives, rates, currencies, structured products, etc. because they can be more specialized.
Physical Energy Trading:
Vitol has been very strong for a very long time. Glencore has fallen off after their IPO in 2011 and subsequent move to Stamford. A great deal of talent cashed out at that point, but it could represent a good opportunity for openings. There are a number of smaller players in those markets that I've found intriguing as well (i.e. Gulfstream, Louis Dreyfus).
very wrong
We talking that whole continent called North America right? Monty as usual lays down the law. If he cares he could add his point.
I will keep it short, Glencore and Traf do not belong on the list for NAM Energy Desks, we talking North America right? Koch ain't what it used to be.
Also disagree that the pure trading houses are the main last goal for most people. Most people would rather go to a hedge fund or somewhere that gets more deal flow than so the so called "pure trading houses". Again we talking North America right?
I don't think monty09 is saying that there's really a ranking, just that the whole Trafi is better than Glencore now because people have jumped ship after the IPO seems like a pretty bold/most likely unfounded statement.
Which is why, no disrespect to Tupac, the whole concept of a 2013 trading ranking is probably not that good of an idea anyway. There are too many variables to make true rankings. A list of "leading players" in each field is probably the best we can do.
that's the goal, and a reason why i switched from rank to tiers.
Could someone with knowledge (Ideally a buy-side trader) rank equities and related? OP just included Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, BAML but said he was not knowledgeable in the area. I feel like this is one of the places where some of other sell-side firms with solid ER teams( mainly thinking MM like blair, baird, etc) could step up and compete head to head with BB's, but I honestly have no idea. Any insight?
For a S&T fixed income summer internship, which firms do you all believe are best positioned for now/ a career: GS, CS, DB, or BAML?
I would eliminate BAML as their market share has been going down. I know you will be worked hardest at GS because they have very few to no trade assistants, so there is that (but you get the GS brand name). I would say CS or DB because as non US based firms they aren't subject to as many regulations which should help them going forward. As a side note I would lean towards CS of the 2 just because I can't stand DB's dungeon like trading floor...
There is a droning, humming sound at DB that is pretty intense. Culture-wise I vastly preferred the CS folks to DB.
aren't european banks retreating from the US due to dodd frank...
Thanks for your help. I was under the impression that American banks w/ big balance sheets like BAML/JPM would be ideal places to be as a young grad. Also thought BAML was gaining market share with it beginning to successfully integrate Merrill's securities business into its own.
Thought CS was struggling in FI as of late and that new regulations coming into place might hit smaller and leaner shops like them, MS, and GS a bit harder.
Any of this accurate?
http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20130111-902999.html
FX Desk Rankings
Also, not sure about many hedge funds that trade the physical size a lot of guys at the majors and trading houses do. I know many funds will specialize in one sort of market (you'll see this in power... sometimes in local physical markets, like Port of Houston, etc), but not much more than that... if you could maybe expand on that? I'm not sure.
Can someone kindly list the link or resource they used to get the rankings above? I'm quite interested. Thanks.
would it be worth adding any IBD categories? or would the TR league tables suffice?
On a global scale, glencore is absolutely top tier, as is traf. Agree for the most part w/ this list, and will also throw in that J Aron is my least favorite counterparty to do commodity deals with and I hope they get spun off and given to Lumina Investments
After Lehman went under, Deutsche bank aggressively courted as many Lehman FI people as they could. Looks like the talent transitioned well. They've been doing this for other groups as well. Their FX ranking is unsurprising. Deutsche Bank has always been strong in FX trading, going back to Germany's Imperial days.
I'll just say top tier, in no particular order. Anything beyond that is pretty largely speculative.
Equities GS, MS, BAML as OP said
Commodities GS, MS, JPM
Credit JPM, Citi, BAML
FX Citi, DB, JPM
Rates JPM, Citi, in a former era UBS (not sure any more)
Securitized Products GS, Citi, JPM, BAML
MS' commodities group is in the process of being sold to Qatar's sovereign fund. And I would throw Barclays in for Securitized Products.
honestly in 08 that seemed accurate but now i can honestly say it's like jpm, barclays, baml/citi. for commodities..
What makes you say GS for commodities? Just out of curiosity
I'm still not sure they fully belong - I have yet to hear anything positive out of J Aron recently.
Commodities BP
everyone else
I think Emerging Markets Tier 2 would be Jeffries.
Also you missed out the whole rankings of Inter Dealer Brokerage. Cantor Fitzgerald, ICAP, GFI, etc.
lol the fact that i can't find the big chi-town playa on the list means these ratings are bunk.
updating some of these
Are these US rankings? On a global basis, Shell fixes significantly more crude/products than BP nowadays. That doesn't necessarily speak to comp, but they're a major feeder to Vitol.
theyre rankings focused on best places to work out of school / to get experience. typically BP has better traders
Hah I disagree, BP has had some major mess ups since macondo and the exodus of talent that forced. Likewise they had a major deal blow up last year that impacted trading globally.
I agree with others, lists like these are tough to say because a lot of this comes down to who you are and who you end up working with. Some people learn better from certain people and some places will give you a better education early on than others.
These threads are always retarded. None of you have any idea which banks are the best at any of these products because best is such an ambiguous term that none of you really know what you are discussing anyway. Best at making prices? Best at taking risk? Most flow? Best/Widest product offerings? Best payouts for talent? Fastest to promote? There are maybe a handful of people on this site who can answer for any of single product, much less all of them, and anyone who claims to know otherwise is fooling you. This may be an extreme example, but someone just said "I think JEF is tier 2 in EM" (again, wtf is EM? FX, rates? credit? equities?) and sure enough there they are on the list, in tier 2, just because one person on the internet said so.
Considering that most of the people who responded haven't worked at one of these places in any of the listed products (much less two!) this only furthers my point. Not to mention that it is a near certainty that some of these places that get tier 1 in whatever product is listed are very senior oriented and couldn't give a flying fuck about training new hires.
I suppose if this gives people a false sense of hope or direction about where to conduct their intern search then awesome but hopefully anyone with a functioning left side of their brain understands that these are glorified market share rankings, and it has nothing to do with the best places to work coming out of school. These are no indication of the quality of traders/salespeople at any particular firm. The only way to get that information is by working at one of these places or knowing someone who does that actually wants to talk about it outside of work.
Basically what Cash4Gold said. The fact that a firm has a huge market share might just mean they have tradition in that product, or is a specific niche and have a huge desk where they won't teach you anything. And it varies so much for tiny details it's not even for the same desk or even the same the same product. For instance SocGen and BNPP have ridiculous volume on French govvies and linkers. Does that mean that if you are handed the French govvies book in JPM your job is much worse than the guy running treasuries? Or does it mean it's equally good because you are at the same firm, product and desk? Huge profits can just be a great trader who only does prop and isn't bothered to talk to interns or analysts. The best traders don't necessarily make the best teachers, and even though they are a minority there are huge assholes on the floor. My point is it's pointless to make rankings in S&T because you have to generalize too much, and when you do that you end up losing the information you were looking for in the first place. Also, having people who haven't been on a trading floor ever throwing names is a bit ridiculous. The Rates list looks all wrong to me, at least in London. But I would bet that for example Barclays does better in NYC than most of the banks named there as well. If you want to decide on where to work (and you can actually choose) think about it from a teaching and advancement opportunity perspective. Questions like is it a good fit? Are they used to having interns and grads and therefore have experience teaching or do they all come from other desks? What kind of careers do the people who were trained by them have? How many people are there between you and your boss? Is the pyramid very bottom heavy which will make it difficult for you to get responsibilities and get promoted?
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