Why is S&T Dead This Year
Pretty self explanatory question. S&T is insanely fucking dead. Internships are largely still recruiting in normal class sizes and within those classes it's 90%+ sales roles that get returned. Across the street banks either have no graduate program, posted and are taking no one, or posted and are taking like 3 sales people from thousands of applicants. WTF happened to this industry.
Based on the most helpful WSO content, here are some insights into why Sales & Trading (S&T) is perceived as a declining industry:
Technological Advancements:
Regulatory Changes:
Industry Sentiment:
Job Market Dynamics:
Skill Set Evolution:
Exit Opportunities:
Economic Factors:
In summary, the combination of technological disruption, regulatory pressures, and changing market dynamics has led to a challenging environment for S&T professionals.
Sources: Sales in S&T: Dead-end career path in 2020?, https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum/trading/sales-in-st-dead-end-career-path-in-2020?customgpt=1, Where are all the S&T monkeys?, Will current economic environment impact S&T Grad Jobs?
Bump
Would love to hear why its so quiet atm from those with experience
This rings true with my experience as well. Interned in gs/ms/Jp in London this summer and they gave like 8 trading returns out of ~50 interns. Seems to be the way the industry is heading unfortunately, a lot of people at the bank mentioned the message from management is “do more with less” so headcount only going one direction
Curious - out of the 50, how many got returns? Is the program rotational?
If its 40% returns (20 ppl) and 8 is trading then sounds ok isnt it?
This Industry is cyclical. There was a lot of hiring done in the last 2-3 years, and now the economic picture is not looking as rosy. This is not a sales and trading problem, this is global macro problem. The same thing is happening in consulting, banking, etc. S&T is extremely numbers focused as you might imagine from the top of the house down, so budgets are mostly flat and or decreasing which means no hiring. Does not mean the “industry is heading in that direction” lmao, it means that for the time being all industries are.
Only sharing my experiences obviously wider macro conditions matter a lot, but in 2024 you can’t exactly say that s&t is a growing industry in terms of headcount etc and I’m not even one of those people who trolls about everyone getting replaced by robots or ai
Finance, consulting, tech et al. are not growing headcount in 2024. Most of the S&P 500 is not growing headcount in 2024. This industry fluctuates and is mature, that doesn’t mean it is contracting because banks decided not to hire as many interns this year.
For an upcoming 2025 intern in s&t, is it cooked to want to be in trading?
Should we focus more on sales roles?
Also appreciate insights to the return %s in BBs for 2024 summer analysts - if its low (for trading) then is graduate recruiting also cooked?
Bump
if ur asking this then probs you wont get a trading seat broski. skill sets between sales and trading are pretty different now and will continue to grow apart. need to figure out what ur actually good at (or think ur good at) and stick with it. stop worrying about future return offer rates and start building up ur toolbox
Is there anything you’d suggest as a better alternative to trading that would actually require or target a similar skill set?
A direct result of no one in the T leaves. An argument can be made if your in S, you might as well do consulting or IB. But the hardcore traders, wouldn’t leave their T seat for anything but hedge funds. You see the banks earnings, GS/MS/JPM are doing so well again in markets, traders are going to be bringing home good money this year, why leave? But management also won’t hire more since they wanna avoid over hiring like in the past years. Only a consistent stretch of good results and macro conditions will maybe bring up headcount numbers.
Can you expand on the difference between salesmen and traders?
Totally agree that hiring across the board in white collar professions is down but I do think there are some structural changes that have happened over the last 10 or so years that have really changed the business and the hiring.
1. There has been pretty significant consolidatoin across the buyside and the sell side. There are just less seats to go around so less opportunity for people who are upset at compensation to go walk across the street. So less turnover means less hiring at all levels, especially the entry level.
2. The cost of living has massively outpaced wages across the board but I think its at an even larger magnitude in S&T, So the days of people hitting the number and walking away at 50 are over. Also we are all living longer, taking better care of ourselves and having kids later all these keep people in their seats and productive longer.
3. There is way less entertainment which has made this job much easier especially on the older people, going out 2-3 days a week for work sounds fun when you are 22 but when you are married and have a family its the last thing you want to do. The fact that you are not expected to be out 3 times a week has extended a lot of careers. Add in the ability to WFH and you see older people who would have burned out 5 years ago still working.
For younger people who want to make career of this- Its a volatile industry and you will not have a straight line career path (this is not banking). You try to find a seat you like and think you will be good at. You may not end up converting your internship to full time, that does not mean you are a failure. If you do really want to be in S&T find a job that is somewhat tangential that will allow you to build some skills and some contacts and you will find a way to break in. Firms hire junior people who have a couple of years of experience all the time, it comes down to pounding the payment to find that opportunity.
Cause it’s become more politics
no one’s looking for new clients.
Get off ur txt msgs and pick up
the phone
That is a whole other issue, the big banks don't want new clients they want to grow wallet share with the biggest clients. They don't incentivize salespeople to find new clients and when a salesperson finds a new client they make the process of opening the account and getting it set up to trade so difficult that salespeople just stop trying.
I think that varies by shop, but come on, it's always been a slog. Sure it may seem like low hanging fruit to grow wallet share in big accounts, but how easy is that when everyone is doing it?
over here in power we're getting fucked. might be different if you're in a different market from me or if you're short congestion
power is going to be insane this decade
There generally was a big exodus of commods, FI, macro traders the last few years and banks are largely restaffed up now.
This^^ j because return offers are low people are saying it’s dead. My intern class this year was 50% returns, last year was like 90%
Not surprised hiring has slowed this year
Hi, do you think hiring will pick up again next summer in terms of conversion rates? Thanks
Business has been regulated into the ground and automation makes the people aspect less and less relevant
have you seen the bonus cycle this year?
Probably because Biden was in office
Secular compression all around. For sales…less people expected to do way more with little to no resources. Few senior sales people left. Highly comped sales in industry long time have been put out to pasture last few years.
In my view you do what you can to remain “high touch” with the handful of clients that matter to management, and tail is commoditized. Tough to tie yourself to revenue/results for good comp nowadays…mgmt valuing the seats however they please and slow grind up for the “outperformers.”
I discourage college students from S&T sales unless using as stepping stone to research/trading/buyside.
At a top BB this summer as a trading intern, but only like 50% of the desks are actually trading
What do you expect lmao
Ratione nisi hic est voluptatem molestiae cumque. Distinctio culpa temporibus facere aspernatur iusto. Enim vitae ullam eum nobis quia. Voluptate quae ullam incidunt.
Consequatur cupiditate fugit rerum perferendis recusandae consequatur vel nostrum. Porro non eaque omnis repellendus perspiciatis. Expedita reiciendis et aperiam. Aperiam qui odio ipsam id.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
In at exercitationem excepturi ut ut enim. Asperiores ex vel quisquam.
In eaque et possimus qui dolorem nihil. Earum consequatur molestias nisi est corporis consequatur odio aliquid. Aut aut minus tempora et illum. Voluptatem voluptatem asperiores veritatis sunt harum. Ipsam perspiciatis sunt dolorem. Id id aut ea atque voluptatem.