A friend of mine cheated and got an Internship offer at a BB IB

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Rank: Chimp | 0

A friend of mine has a GPA of 2.1. He basically photoshopped his unofficial transcript with better grades and gave himself a much higher GPA and he eventually received a Summer Internship Offer from a BB and even passed their background check.

How exactly did this happen? Apart from the obvious, he will probably suck at his job or won't be able to keep up with the workload, how do firms let something like this happen and deprive a more deserving candidate of an offer?

Comments (169)

Apr 19, 2019

Take comfort in knowing he's in that industry group

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Apr 19, 2019

Firms don't really have time to verify each candidate's transcript. Ultimately grades are a prerequisite, nailing the interview is more important

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Apr 19, 2019

I see, So basically, since Grades and GPA classify as personal data, firms ultimately have no choice but to straight up believe what a candidate says? Honestly, if that were the case, I don't even see the point of firms asking for your GPA.

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Apr 23, 2019

Because it's a way to have an initial filter. You would think most people would be honest on their resume and maybe less than 1% would think of lying. Do people with 2.1 GPAs even aspire to work 80 hour weeks?

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Apr 19, 2019

He's going to do fine.

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Most Helpful
Apr 19, 2019

How about not going on an online forum and bashing your "friend?"

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Apr 20, 2019

How is this "Bashing"? I didn't contact the company or expose him or list his information out or anything. I couldn't care less about the way he chooses to live his life. My question was more on the lines of trying to find out whether occurrences like this are common and whether firms have any particular way to verify grades and gpa or are they simply forced to believe what a candidate says which doesn't really make much sense to me.

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Apr 21, 2019

You listed firm and department lol salty af

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Apr 23, 2019

They can't "verify" but they can tell him to have his school send something official. He can refuse but they would just pull the offer. He's rolling the dice and it seems like it might pay off. Such is life sometimes. In another timeline they knew the whole time, they fire him on his first day, and he's blacklisted from the entire industry. Risk/Reward

Apr 24, 2019

Truth

Apr 19, 2019

I'm not usually for exposing people, but this is so blatantly messed up that I don't think you'd be in the wrong for telling them.

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Apr 26, 2019

As someone who spent 3.5 years busting my ass (post undergrad) to break my way into the industry (top MM now) I would have no reservations about exposing him. I can understand rounding a GPA but pushing it up from 2.1 to an acceptable IB level is a bit much.

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Apr 19, 2019

Good for your friend. He'll either get weeded out quickly or he'll find a way to use his resourcefulness to get the FT offer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning what he did. But like @NonTargetHardo2019 said, you sound salty as fuck coming on here to friend-bash saying he'll be "sucky" at his job. It's possible he's a killer techie that just doesn't give a shit about gpa. I know plenty of them.

@AA777 you sound like a snitch. Snitches get stitches. Stay in your lane.

Lastly, I find it hilarious that this actually worked. If he's a dishonest POS he'll get the boot so there's no need to rat.

"Out the garage is how you end up in charge
It's how you end up in penthouses, end up in cars, it's how you
Start off a curb servin', end up a boss"

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Apr 19, 2019

Although the dishonesty part is a bit telling though

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Apr 19, 2019

There's a difference between "resourcefulness" and straight up fraud. I can't fathom defending someone who literally forged his entire transcript. I'm not trying to rat someone who rounded up a 3.3 to 3.5, but a 2.1?? Maybe he should have actually done his work. Christ.

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Apr 20, 2019

i forged mine from a 2.5 to a 3.8 lol for my summer internship back sophomore year.

Ty

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Apr 21, 2019

Boy, have I got some news that will really depress you.

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Apr 19, 2019

For starters, I don't really care about what he does because in the end it's his own life and if he has no integrity, and happy with living his whole life made up with a bunch of lies then good for him! That is his choice.

That said, he is sucky at his job because he pays people to do his coding assignments. Cheats on tests and he even got into trouble once for copying on a test. I'm not the kind of person who things a GPA is a measure of someone's intelligence and if he really does have the skill set, then good for him. However, under the circumstance, he doesn't.

Apr 20, 2019

Sounds like a great school that lets in a clown like this and then doesn't kick him out after he's caught cheating. Where is BB recruiting these days?

Apr 20, 2019

I wouldn't classify cheating under resourcefulness. I'm sure most kids are capable of photoshopping their GPA, but they choose not to because they think it's unethical.

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Apr 23, 2019

"Snitches get stitches"

Relax Mr. Prep school, salmon shorts, boat shoes, buck 30 soaking wet sipping mimosas on weekends lookin ass...

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Apr 25, 2019

Jeans > salmon shorts, no boat no boat shoes (ACGs>all), buck 90 give or take 10, coffee > mimosas. No time to waste trying to build a buzz off 10 orange juices. Rather be making money.

Lol just saw this. And to address the point. Snitches do, in fact, get stitches.

"Out the garage is how you end up in charge
It's how you end up in penthouses, end up in cars, it's how you
Start off a curb servin', end up a boss"

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Jun 8, 2019

Hmmmm............. Let's change one thing real quick......

"Good for Bernie Madoff. He'll either get put in jail and everyone will magically be recouped and made whole (NOT!) or he'll find a way to use his resourcefulness to keep the scheme going.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning what he did. But like @NonTargetHardo2019 said, you sound salty as fuck coming on here to friend-bash saying he'll be "sucky" at his job(fuck whistleblowing and dignity, right? definitely keep more entitled bros in the top 1%). It's possible he's a killer fund manager that just doesn't give a shit about federal regulation(or basic human decency). I know plenty of them(yeah, I bet).

@AA777 you sound like a snitch. Snitches get stitches(especially from guilty, desperate, insecure people... *really though, is this middle school?). Stay in your lane.

Lastly, I find it hilarious that this actually worked. If he's a dishonest POS he'll get the boot so there's no need to rat(again, as if that fixes everything)."

HMMMMMMM................

JUST DO IT. Don't let your memes be dreams.

Apr 19, 2019

I still don't get why people seem to defend someone rounding up their GPA from 2.1 to a 3.5.

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Apr 21, 2019

It's because they think they're true bred wall street hardos for putting #1 above the rest and going for the kill no matter what. #WolfofWallStreet #success #IDoWhatItTakes

Hilarious because this is the opposite of what the job requires haha.

My desk just revoked some kid's offer a month or two back for much less than fudging a gpa. Bottom line is that this is a trust based business - if you can't be trusted, you're fucking out. If I can't trust you to nut up and play the hand you're dealt, I can't trust you to work for me, talk to my clients, etc.

Apr 22, 2019
Gary-Andrews30:

I still don't get why people seem to defend someone rounding up their GPA from 2.1 to a 3.5.

I think it's because we all kind of intuitively know that college is bullshit. It's definitely not right to do what he did, but I think a lot of people--myself included--are happy to see the integrity of college undermined anywhere and everywhere it can be.

Apr 23, 2019

I think it's because even though everybody knows he did a disgraceful, dishonest, piece-of-bottom-barrel-shit thing you still come across as more dislikeable online.

Can't believe you listed bank and department. Shitty whiny bitch thing to do.

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Apr 23, 2019

Post was def edited before i got to it but yeah i think are you looking for affirmation in the wrong place. This seems like a confessional/talk to your priest sort of thing if you want to feel morally justified. With that being said, if you are upset with this kid - kill it in the field. I'm going to step out on a limb here and assume that you have reasonable grades and half a brain. You can succeed. If i were you i would focus my energy on getting it done, you have too much time on your hands if you have the energy to worry about your "friend".

Best of luck to you.

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Apr 20, 2019

Well how about you just drop an email to the HR telling them the truth

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Apr 20, 2019

Your post is just so wrong. The reality is not that you have such a high sense of justice and fairness that you needd to share with us that your friend cheated...
You are just jealous of your friend because he managed to have something without as much effort as you. Your are just trying to find some support to rat on your friend.
Your friend did not do something morally wrong . He took a risk and succeeded in taking that additional risk. You could have done the same. But you didn't. Not because you have high value standards, but because you were afraid to get caught. Your friend played and won. He had more balls than you and now you feel that it's not fair because you worked more than him. Life is unfair just suck it up and stop being a crying baby about it.

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Apr 20, 2019

Risk isn't about balls, it's about knowing when the risk is worth the reward. In this case, I think it wasn't. Many people will see this thread, and it probably takes one email to this BB to ruin this guy's career. His best shot is to lateral out of this BB quickly to one of the (few) shops that doesn't ask for a transcript.

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Apr 20, 2019

.

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Apr 21, 2019

Exactly.

Fuck all these wannabe analysts lionizing a common liar taking 0 risk to steal their job offer.

Apr 21, 2019

The level of immaturity in your post is surreal. What if your loved one was sick and you needed a doctor and guess what! The doctor had the balls to fake his credentials and get a job and was going to be operating on your loved one. So are you still gonna say he had the balls to take that risk while the rest of the doctors were bitches and went to medical school?

With intelligence comes a sense of mortality. It has nothing to do with me being afraid of doing the "Wrong thing".

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Apr 21, 2019

i would respect it, long as he could do his job.

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Apr 21, 2019

Big leap from tech guy to doctor there lol

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Apr 20, 2019

I do think this is pretty fucked up BUT if you spend your entire life wondering how some people get ahead and others (that might be more deserving) don't, you're going to live a very exhausting life. Channel your energy into something more productive and move on.

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Apr 21, 2019

I get that. My questioning was on the lines of, how common something like this is and what steps are taken by firms to prevent something like this.

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Apr 21, 2019

likely relatively common and likely no steps at all. esp if he was a referral.

Apr 20, 2019

Jesus, you guys are kinda f*cked up.

OP you seem a little too bitter about it, but IMO there's cause to be at least somewhat miffed. OP's "friend" is an asshole. There is NOTHING "clever" or "resourceful" about literally doctoring your fucking transcript to give yourself a higher GPA. Nothing. There is zero similarity between that and doing something like ninja networking your way into interviews with a subpar GPA, or using alternative transcripts, major/Master's GPAs. If I found out about anyone pulling this garbage I'd show them the fucking door.

GPAs aren't a perfect indicator of how good someone will be at their job - hell the guy who runs my vertical graduated from a state school with a 2.something GPA and he's about 20x smarter and richer than I am - but I am of the opinion that doctoring grades is an excellent indicator of how absolutely dogshit someone will be as a professional.

You guys gonna defend Bernie Madoff for just "fudging a few numbers" next?

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Apr 21, 2019

With you 100%.

All these losers defending this type of lie have clearly never sat on a desk and thought for a moment about the stress of letting a blatant liar handle your business and your clients on your behalf.

Apr 23, 2019
Angus Macgyver:

but I am of the opinion that doctoring grades is an excellent indicator of how absolutely dogshit someone will be as a professional.

You guys gonna defend Bernie Madoff for just "fudging a few numbers" next?

I mean, half of college students use illicit drugs as study aids and drink underage. I know not every "crime" or unethical act is equal, but at what point do we remember that whenever you point your finger at a person there are two fingers pointing right back at you?

Apr 23, 2019

As they say, there are levels to this shit.

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Apr 23, 2019
Angus Macgyver:

You guys gonna defend Bernie Madoff for just "fudging a few numbers" next?

I was all ready to hammer on the other side, calling the altruistic-integrity-nerds out but this silly line kind of brought it home for me. Lying and being deceitful is a slippery slope. Throughout my career(s), I've witnessed good people upping the ante to the point where processes designed for checks and balances are completely circumvented, producing a result that's completely false. While I don't particularly care that some dbag altered his transcript, who knows what they would be willing to do 4 or 5 years down the line.

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Apr 23, 2019
John Pierpont:
Angus Macgyver:

You guys gonna defend Bernie Madoff for just "fudging a few numbers" next?

I was all ready to hammer on the other side, calling the altruistic-integrity-nerds out but this silly line kind of brought it home for me. Lying and being deceitful is a slippery slope. Throughout my career(s), I've witnessed good people upping the ante to the point where processes designed for checks and balances are completely circumvented, producing a result that's completely false. While I don't particularly care that some dbag altered his transcript, who knows what they would be willing to do 4 or 5 years down the line.

I really hate this line of thinking. If you took someone with a 3.4 GPA and took him into an alternate universe and deducted a point from his GPA (down to 2.4) and told him that he could alter his transcript, land a great job, and get away with it, what portion of people do you think would do it? Probably about the same proportion of people who drink underage and who use illicit study aids, which is about half the population, give or take. In other words, we're making sweeping predictions about the future character of transcript alterers while ignoring people who break actual laws.

I would take my critique a step further, however. A great portion of people lack character when it comes to making specific hard decisions, and yet virtually none of them turn into mega thieves because, broadly speaking, using illicit study aids, drinking underage, and altering your transcript are victimless offenses (broadly speaking, of course). People with flawed character engage in victimless offenses. People with actually bad character steal from others and harm others. Madoff's offenses were replete with victims. Grand theft and illicit marijuana use aren't comparable offenses.

Apr 25, 2019

Totally agree. Nothing makes up for a weak character.

Apr 20, 2019

So basically you are just butthurt and made this rage thread?

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Apr 21, 2019

Not exactly. I was just curious to see whether this is a common occurrence and where there is the risk of getting caught or what steps do firms take to prevent stuff like this from happening.

Apr 20, 2019

Two things are true at once here.

(i) OP's friend is a fraudulent assclown who should have never gotten the gig. I think that GPA is a bad proxy for intelligence/ability to do the job, but forging a document to pull the wool over the company's eyes is a good proxy for bad character.

(ii) OP has nothing to gain by ratting the kid out, it's not as if they'll swap out the fraud for him, and he would be better served focusing on himself. I don't blame him for being pissed that someone who he competed w/ for a spot and lost to was a cheat, though.

I come from down in the Valley, where Mr. when you're young, they bring you up to do like your daddy done.

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Apr 20, 2019

I did the same thing, and now I make 90k in a role I like in the midwest. I don't fucking regret it at all haha.

Sucks to be you and not your friend OP.

Ty

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Apr 21, 2019

Lmao, you staked your professional worth and personal integrity on 90k in the Midwest?

Your grades must've been pretty dogshit, huh champ?

Apr 24, 2019

My family comes from means, boss I don't need to work like a dog begging for water like you or some others do.

And would I do it again, oh damn I would. Enjoy working those 100 hour weeks animal, like a rodent running on a wheel.

Ty

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Apr 20, 2019

If he's able to get through the internship despite having cheated at basically everything (which is clear after reading not just OP's first post but also a comment later in the thread), then it just goes to show you either how useless grades are or how useless this job is.

Apr 21, 2019

GPAs don't have to have a perfect correlation with professional success to merit being respected in a competitive interview process.

You know what does have a strong correlation with being a dogshit professional? Lying about something as trivial and small as a GPA.

All you guys are fucking wack lmao. Not good enough to make it on your own so you trip all over yourselves babbling flimsy rationales to justify what you know makes you a lesser person and professional. I laugh all the way down park avenue.

You all talk a big game about how ballsy and brave and bold it is to lie your way into a firm - how comfy would you morons be with this liar talking to your clients on the desk?

Apr 21, 2019

While you're strolling down Park Ave, how about taking a deep breath? You seem to be grinding quite the axe on this thread. Not sure who all these "guys" and "morons" are, your response is to me and I definitely never said any of those things.

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Apr 20, 2019

I was working a deal two years ago at my old firm, we were able to get EBITDA from $40M to about $65M in ridiculous add backs and bull shit adjustments to be able to over leverage the company. The equivalent of changing a GPA from 2.1 to 3.5.

Sounds, like he will fit in finance just fine.

Also, put yourself in his shoes. What choice did he have? Get dinged for a shit GPA and never get an interview or round out his GPA and get an interview and maybe get caught and get dinged. It seems like a asymmetrical risk / reward type situation. I'm not encouraging this, but I mean if one of my friends did this and got the job, id buy him some beers and hope for him to succeed instead of bashing him.

It's a dog eat dog world out there, get used to it.

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Apr 21, 2019

Wtf are you talking about lol - he has two choices other than violating the rules other better people are respecting for everyone's mutual benefit:

  1. Get legit good grades in the first place
  2. Distinguish himself in a bespoke way that appeals to his employer.

You all are such morons. Society would literally not function if everyone was a free-riding piece of shit like OP's friend. Thankfully most people have better character than all the wannabe banker kiddies on WSO.

Apr 21, 2019

He had two choices. The ship for getting good grades has sailed. He fucked up his opportunity to do it the right way. Now he chose to get in the sketchy way, and will have to live with the potential consequences if he ever gets caught. I probably wouldn't go that route, but if he did it and it works, good for him.

The point I'm making is that sometimes you gotta play the cards you are dealt, or in his case, the cards you end up with due to bad luck or poor decision making. Maybe he started out with a strong hand, fucked it up and is in a bad spot and saw that as a risky way to get out of the bad spot.

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Apr 24, 2019

thankfully their is enough self-righteous jihadi clowns like you, for there always to be guys like me. I will always cheat homie....and I owe it to you for giving me the opportunity.

As if most fortunes weren't made brutally or through deceit. We gotta real good guy merican here haha.

Have some xanax motherfucker, might bring your blood pressure down, which I'm sure is reaching dangerous levels.

Ty

Funniest
Apr 20, 2019

OP should apply to work for the SEC since they are also cucks.

Apr 21, 2019

lol

Apr 21, 2019

Interesting since my BB for this summer requires grades sent directly from my University for reasons like this. Very surprised this BB does not have a similar measure in place. Curious if others have had the same with BB not requiring official transcripts. Between this and zero drug testing it seems like the wild west lol.

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Apr 21, 2019

Your friend might not even last. They are going to see the fraud in him when they hand him that first assignment to complete.

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Apr 21, 2019

Sounds like a smart kid. Maybe delete this post and ask him for tips on how to get a job.

Obviously, grades are important. Getting an offer implies crushing 1-3 interviews (as well as keeping his story straight). He's gonna be fine.

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Apr 21, 2019

So many of these responses are misinterpreting the question. This isn't about ratting someone out, it's about trying to understand what the IB screening process looks like and why people can get away with this.
I don't work in HR, but let's remember we are talking about HR here. This kind of slippage shouldn't be surprising. I've heard stories of people slightly raising a GPA on a resume, but nothing about photoshopping. Also heard stories about lying on a standardized test score from high school. Those background checks are for legal not academic reasons.

Sounds like this guy will not do well in his job. I wouldn't worry, either he goes for the summer and is not able to handle it, or he goes, gets an offer, and has to live with it. These things catch up to people, a small 3.4 to 3.5 is painless, photoshopping your transcripts is a sign that you should stay away from this crafty friend and make better friends.

Apr 21, 2019

Dude if it wasn't about ratting out he'd not disclose both, bank and department...

Apr 21, 2019

Thanks, I'll inform Rob on the situation and he will handle it.

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Apr 21, 2019

God, what a thread.

You're in the right OP, fuck your slippery "friend".

And fuck all of you in this thread who are pretending this is okay. Your moral compasses are busted, and you are straight up lesser men for being too soft to condemn this behavior and lacking the forbearance to swear off of it yourselves.

It's unquestionably possible to get FT IB with a non target background and GPA (let alone tech, LOL) - I did it - so why don't all you big bois go do it yourselves instead of cutting corners like little bitches? Just admit to yourselves that you're below the bar and that's why you substitute lies for substance?

Just keep it up OP, and forget these fucking cheaters. It's very easy to cut corners in your professional life to get ahead, but it's a slippery slope too. Everyone knows when they're dealing with a liar, it's plain as day. People who indulge themselves in it tend to go deeper down the rabbit hole to perpetuate their lies, and in my experience they get their comeuppance eventually. Thing is when you cheat your way to the top, there's a lot of people who feel justified destroying you when you inevitably stumble upon a moment of weakness.

Apr 21, 2019

Who hurt you? I think OP's buddy is fucked, can't see you not calling the BB first thing tomorrow morning.

Apr 21, 2019

Bite me dude, as if I care that much about serving justice to some tech division wannabe.

Apr 22, 2019

since when have morals mattered in being successful? plenty of bad people are successful. if he does well at job who cares. GPA is not an indicator of anything, the workplace is nothing like school. he obviously was smart enough to do what he had to do.

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Apr 23, 2019

I think what Fugue is saying is morals will matter in being successful, at some point in your life or the other. Eventually they can bite you in the ass if all you're looking for is a shortcut. Whether it's lying on your application or formulating the terms on a deal

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Apr 21, 2019

Good for him ;)

Apr 22, 2019

sounds to me like you need new friends

Apr 22, 2019

I wonder how prevalent this actually is. My first employer out of college requested official transcripts on my first day on the job. If I recall there is watermarks, an official seal and it's on unique textured paper. How on earth do you doctor that?

On individuals actually pulling this off, I bet it's less than 1% of candidates that have that combination of broken moral compass + the balls to go through with it all.

Would love to hear more about this if anyone has additional stories

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Apr 22, 2019

How hard can it be? I'd imagine Fedex Office could make you watermark paper with the school's logo and probably not hard to get your hands on the vaunted "seal" (isn't it just a sticker?). Keep in mind you don't need to have the exact ones the school has, just good enough to look like it.

Amazing to me that the schools don't offer a secure solution in 2019, in a time when we're already accustomed to logging in to 20 different things a day just to live our daily lives and when the professional job market is so competitive that 7th graders have internships. So higher motivation to cheat than ever, and more fixable than ever.

Apr 22, 2019
Dedline:

On individuals actually pulling this off, I bet it's less than 1% of candidates that have that combination of broken moral compass + the balls to go through with it all.

As someone who did create a completely fake transcript, I can speak to this. When you have a 2.nothing at a state school, you're staring into the abyss. At the time I felt a sense of complete desperation. The economy was rough at the time and my friends were still getting good job offers, all the while I couldn't even get an interview, and the one interview I got I crushed, was invited to firm headquarters and was basically told I was going to be a future partner at the firm. When they saw my real transcript, they went from putting me on a 10-year partner track to literally never again acknowledging my existence.

So, yeah, you'd be surprised what you can do when you feel like you're pressed against the wall. I wouldn't say my moral compass is any more broken than anyone else's--I just led myself to believe that I had no other choice.

Apr 23, 2019

Damn. Thanks for sharing.

Care to speak on how you doctored the transcript?

Apr 24, 2019

many midsize AM firms, consulting firms, and regular corporate roles don't really require a transcript. I just downloaded mine into PDF form, and edited the 3.2 to a 3.7 and that was that. Hardly murder, but some good guy hardworkers seem to think otherwise. Those clowns don't work in sales though, nor are they partners/upper execs in their organizations either. As long as corporate politics exist, I see no wrong in what I did. Other people get ahead through other means, fraud was just the easiest to deploy for me at that time.

Ty

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Apr 30, 2019

"I see no wrong in what I did" - and you wonder why people hate the finance industry.

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Apr 22, 2019

Karma is a bitch. He may get away this time, but if he did this he is rolling the dice in other areas of his life. If you must, take comfort in knowing that he will get got soon enough...

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Apr 22, 2019

Good for him.

Apr 22, 2019
:

A friend of mine has a GPA of 2.1. He basically photoshopped his unofficial transcript with better grades and gave himself a much higher GPA and he eventually received a Summer Internship Offer from a BB and even passed their background check.

How exactly did this happen? Apart from the obvious, he will probably suck at his job or won't be able to keep up with the workload, how do firms let something like this happen and deprive a more deserving candidate of an offer?

I did the same thing. I doctored my 2.52 GPA into a 3.39 (to avoid a background check into Dean's Lists, I kept it right below 3.4) and landed an investment banking analyst role right out of college. I don't know how I feel about doing it--I have lots of mixed emotions about it.

I think the only reason I don't feel a lot of guilt about it is because I believed at the time--and that belief has been fully reenforced out in the real world--that college is complete and utter horseshit, that your GPA is largely a function of your ability, at age 18-22, to do what you're told and conform. I didn't do what I was told--I didn't do my work, I argued with the professors, I didn't pay attention in class--and yet I still passed L1 of the CFA exam the month I graduated from college and absolutely annihilated the tests the investment bank gave me. So, I guess I didn't fail to learn just because my GPA was low. But I did fail to conform.

On the other hand, I definitely took someone else's analyst spot. But I can rationalize that by knowing that that person wouldn't have hesitated to step on my throat if it could get him or her ahead. I don't know. Mixed emotions.

Apr 23, 2019

The amount of users piling on and lauding an act of fraud is disgusting.

"... college is complete and utter horseshit, that your GPA is largely a function of your ability, at age 18-22, to do what you're told and conform"

This isn't a unique perspective. I've hated school my entire life for this exact reason. I worked really hard for my 3.8 major GPA to at least cover up for my 3.2 cumulative because I knew I couldn't compete against kids who were built that way. I worked full-time for 3 years in my professional domain during college to guarantee I wouldn't lose to 3.5+'s.

But what were you doing for 4 years? Not paying attention? Arguing with professors? A recession hits and you're stuck holding the bag on 2.52 because you were too good for the institution of higher education? You didn't have the balls to forgo college (or drop out) so I don't buy the hints of civic righteousness that you're alluding too. "...passing L1 of CFA" or "...annihilating the tests the investment bank gave me" and even getting the IB interview in the first place are completely mutually exclusive.

You had a serious lapse of integrity but what's weirdest, is that you write / sound as though you were entitled to do so.

As for who you are today, nobody is going to ask for your transcripts beyond your first job; nobody gives a fuck.

But I wonder, boy I wonder, if I could smell it on you.

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Apr 23, 2019
Dedline:

The amount of users piling on and lauding an act of fraud is disgusting.

How am I lauding an act of fraud? I'm saying I have mixed emotions about what I did. That's a far cry from praising the action.

Dedline:

This isn't a unique perspective. I've hated school my entire life for this exact reason. I worked really hard for my 3.8 major GPA to at least cover up for my 3.2 cumulative because I knew I couldn't compete against kids who were built that way. I worked full-time for 3 years in my professional domain during college to guarantee I wouldn't lose to 3.5+'s.

Have you ever stopped and asked yourself why? That's a legitimate question. Why did you work hard for a high GPA? Did this increase your learning? Did you contribute to the betterment of society? Did it produce a product or service that people wanted? Honest question. I've always felt that a high GPA was achieved in service of self so that you could play the game. It's hardly an act of altruism.

Dedline:

But what were you doing for 4 years? Not paying attention? Arguing with professors? A recession hits and you're stuck holding the bag on 2.52 because you were too good for the institution of higher education?

Yes.

Dedline:

"...passing L1 of CFA" or "...annihilating the tests the investment bank gave me" and even getting the IB interview in the first place are completely mutually exclusive.

No they're not. They expose the intellectual bankruptcy of college education, especially undergraduate business education.

Dedline:

You had a serious lapse of integrity but what's weirdest, is that you write / sound as though you were entitled to do so.

Yes on both counts. I feel less guilty the further I get away from it and realize that the college industrial complex is corrupt and that the most elite jobs are rigged not by race or gender but by network. If I had a nickel for every person I've met in my journey who had their job or their promotion based on who they knew...

If I felt as though there were a real victim I'd have more guilt about it. There is no victim.

Dedline:

As for who you are today, nobody is going to ask for your transcripts beyond your first job; nobody gives a fuck.

But I wonder, boy I wonder, if I could smell it on you.

Ha, do you think that is going to make me look hard in the mirror and consider my crime? I assure you I've thought much more deeply about this than you.

Apr 23, 2019
Dedline:

You had a serious lapse of integrity but what's weirdest, is that you write / sound as though you were entitled to do so.

To whom does this student owe a duty of honesty? To the student who's spot he took? Are you saying that the cheater screwed over the honest kid because the honest kid had a better GPA and was thus entitled to the better job?

I don't think the honest kid has any legitimate beef with the cheater. Getting a high GPA entitles you to nothing, and at no point do students join hands and agree to step aside for one another based on one person deserving it more than another.

The cheater probably owes his employer some honesty, but I question the mutuality of that relationship. I've had a few employers, still waiting for the first one that did something for me out of moral obligation.

People don't automatically owe eachother honesty. That obligation comes from a relationship where each party agreed (usually implicitly) to be honest with the other. At least in my book.

Apr 23, 2019

I do not condone cheating, but the scene below from Mad Men offers a valuable life lesson. Do not waste your time being concerned about other people and their business.

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Apr 23, 2019

Honestly I have no problem with this. A lot of people who have been successful in this world wouldn't be there if they'd always played by the rules. This is a tough world and you have to do what you can to get what you want. As long as he didn't break the law, why not? Stop being a salty little bitch (you clearly are, despite what you say) and let it go.

"Yeah, you know whatcha doin."

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Apr 23, 2019

Never said that but where do you draw the line?

Apr 30, 2019

I mean breaking the law would be a good start for line drawing, but that clearly isn't happening in this case.

"Yeah, you know whatcha doin."

Apr 23, 2019

It's a very bold and risky move. Not sure how the exact laws are in the US, but here the bank could press charges if they discover the fraud - it's a textbook case of fraud / falsifying documents.

In the worst case, the police would get involved (is it a misdemeanor, or felony?), the banks would blacklist him, and his school could go forward with a revocation of his degree. Hell, I wonder if banks could sue him for salary paid, too.

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Apr 23, 2019

Also - If if haven't yet, I believe that in the very near feature, most schools will start participating in credential-sharing software. It's already been rolled out here in my country.

Basically, if you agree, employers can go directly to your school, and request official transcripts and diplomas through a website - which cuts down on time from the traditional model (of schools shipping out a physical stamped an sealed one to the employer), and removes the risk of anyone tampering with said physical copies. Works great.

Apr 23, 2019

Not surprised to see schools only beginning to roll out technology that was readily available 20 years earlier.

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Apr 23, 2019

Most schools already do that. I did OCR like 15 years ago and we had that. The problem is no one cares. Do you know how resumes are chosen for interviews? There's literally a huge 300 pg book and people spend like 15-30 seconds on each one. No one is going to read through transcripts

Apr 23, 2019
:

A friend of mine has a GPA of 2.1. He basically photoshopped his unofficial transcript with better grades and gave himself a much higher GPA and he eventually received a Summer Internship Offer from a BB and even passed their background check.

How exactly did this happen? Apart from the obvious, he will probably suck at his job or won't be able to keep up with the workload, how do firms let something like this happen and deprive a more deserving candidate of an offer?

He'll probably crush it - #WorkSmarterNotHarder

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Apr 23, 2019

The amount of people bashing OP correlates directly to the amount of people who are salty that they will never get into IB.

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Apr 23, 2019

Me wading into the thread late:

community fire

For what it's worth, I had a 3.1 state school GPA and never doctored my transcript or cheated in class. It cost me any semblance of a good job upon graduation where I started at a no-name boutique. Took me 4 more years of grinding in Big 4 TAS and 2 years of business school to make it into BB IB the legit way. I wouldn't trade in my integrity for anything but the above responses really add a lot of context around my colleagues...

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Apr 23, 2019
Synergy_or_Syzygy:

Me wading into the thread late:

community fire

For what it's worth, I had a 3.1 state school GPA and never doctored my transcript or cheated in class. It cost me any semblance of a good job upon graduation where I started at a no-name boutique. Took me 4 more years of grinding in Big 4 TAS and 2 years of business school to make it into BB IB the legit way. I wouldn't trade in my integrity for anything but the above responses really add a lot of context around my colleagues...

The "legit" way? What does that even mean? Half the guys are there because their network or some university label next to their name--something other than their skill set. The idea of merit in high finance is a complete fantasy. The only merit on Wall Street is among the guys who actually bring in business. If you aren't actively bringing in business then there is a good chance you (not you specifically, of course) got the job because of some system-fulfilling prophesy that appoints people to high paying analyst jobs because they went to the right school or know the right people. "Merit" and high finance go together like academia and knowledge in 2019 America. Let's be real. I can scarcely imagine another industry that is based less on merit than high finance.

Apr 25, 2019

+1 sb, genius take

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Apr 23, 2019

Welcome to the real world.

Apr 23, 2019

Don't they make you sign a wavier to give over your official transcript directly from the school at some point? Don't see this playing out well.

Apr 24, 2019

I believe that most firms do? Which is why I'm confused about how people doctor the transcripts.

Apr 23, 2019

Honestly who cares. He did what he did. Tough shit. Lots of people here seem to have done it or condone it. I don't care that they got the jobs that kids who worked harder may or may not have, but in my opinion dishonesty makes you a real bitch. It's just a fact. Whether you were too stupid, lazy or righteous, you could have taken the steps to do things the proper way. You may have gotten a job but you do not deserve respect. But I don't expect anyone to care about the opinion of just one person. I know I wouldn't.

Apr 23, 2019

This is great entertainment
entertainment

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Apr 23, 2019

Oh no, how is this 2.1 GPA having idiot ever going to survive his overpaid data entry internship....

This job doesn't take as much genius as people want to think.

Apr 24, 2019

I'm calling bullshit on this being an IB internship.

"Work ethic, work ethic" - Vince Vaughn
Apr 24, 2019

I'm honestly shocked how many here are defending outright cheating.

For fucks sake, you're devaluing your own hard work.

edit: As much as I hate the slippery slope rhetoric, who's to say that this kid doesn't start to doctor other papers when he's feeling some heat?

I understand that people are willing to do anything for certain things, and that it's easy to write off this kind of stuff as a "one time accident", and rationalize it with stuff like "Oh, but he's only trying to hustle his way in / get a foot inside the door", and compare it to school football players using steroids, in order to maximize their chances of making the cut come draft.

Nah, if he's willing to alter something as big as this - not just sugarcoat - but fundamentally alter, then that says something about his character.

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Apr 24, 2019

90% of those supporting it are kids in college still wanting to get the IB job, and this sort of 'go-getter' attitude seems to turn them on.

yeah aight, blueface baby

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Apr 24, 2019
tackytech:

I'm honestly shocked how many here are defending outright cheating.

For fucks sake, you're devaluing your own hard work.

edit: As much as I hate the slippery slope rhetoric, who's to say that this kid doesn't start to doctor other papers when he's feeling some heat?

I understand that people are willing to do anything for certain things, and that it's easy to write off this kind of stuff as a "one time accident", and rationalize it with stuff like "Oh, but he's only trying to hustle his way in / get a foot inside the door", and compare it to school football players using steroids, in order to maximize their chances of making the cut come draft.

Nah, if he's willing to alter something as big as this - not just sugarcoat - but fundamentally alter, then that says something about his character.

What does it say about the character of a system where an MD only or disproportionately recruits from his alma mater? Or where a bank hires someone because of his connections? Or where a feeder university admits someone because of his legacy status?

High finance recruiting is a process without character, a process replete with unfair recruiting practices. I think it's kind of nice to see the system undermined, to be quite frank.

Apr 25, 2019

I know the system can seem unfair, but when it comes to hiring, the fact is that there's only so many resources the banks have - and at some point, the laws of diminishing returns kick in. If a bank decided to spend $1 Bn on recruiting at every school in the country, going rigorously through every damn applicant, I don't think they'd get that much better ROI than how the system is today. At some point, the applicants are pretty much identical, and if you sample from a pool of 2000 "target" candidates vs 100000 candidates, you're not really gonna improve that much.

Wall Street (High-Finance in general) want candidates that are driven, competitive, hard-working, and smart. So why not just make the work easier, and focus on selective schools that already does that filtering for you?

So even though the game is somewhat stacked against you, I don't think it gives anyone a free pass to simply ignore the rules. You take the cards you've been dealt, and play the game to your best ability. Having poor grades and coming from a less known school doesn't mean getting a job is impossible, just that you need to work hundred times harder, and impress people with other qualities.

Making a personal impression on someone will go a long way.

Apr 25, 2019

While I think you have had some thought provoking comments on this thread, I would disagree about your last sentence. Maybe to you, who from your comments seem like you really wanted to "stick it to the man" in one way or another, seeing someone cheat there way in is a good thing. However, I feel like it really isn't. While it is impossible to specifically say who, that may have been a position that could have gone to someone who put in the extra time in school keeping there grades up, even though they probably didn't like the classes. Or to someone who networked exceptionally hard, even though talking to fucking Managing Directors scared them shitless. I am surprised that you really think it's a good thing, because contrary to your comment further up, it's not a victimless crime. While I'm sure that person who cheated will be fine as an analyst, I personally think their character leaves a lot to be desired.

Apr 24, 2019

Your friend (or you lol) has balls.

Also, if you aren't talking about yourself, then sorry to burst your precious bubble - "The A, B and C alums at Harvard in fact could be broadly characterized thus, [Summers] said: The A students became academics, B students spent their time trying to get their children into the university as legacies, and the C students--the ones who had made the money--sat on the fund-raising committee" (WSJ).

Reminds me of that Mad Men episode of how Don got his break at SC.

Apr 24, 2019

I like this thread.

  • You get to see what everyone really thinks.
  • You have the slippery slope people.
  • You have the it doesn't affect you people.
  • You have the you're a snitch people.
  • You have the people that have also done immoral or unethical stuff but somehow they draw the line at this.
  • You have the people who are salty because they are afraid of getting caught and doing it
  • You have the people who think its wrong and won't do it because of their integrity
  • You have the people who don't give a shit because if they have done similar and will probably do worse because fuck everybody else - until something wrongs them of course
  • You have the people who say this is fucked up but it doesn't personally affect me
  • You have the people who applied to the same program and are pretty sad or not even mad
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Apr 24, 2019

And you have people, such as yourself, who purposely mischaracterize others' positions of which they obviously disagree.

Apr 26, 2019

I don't see how people would support this type of behaviour from OP's friend. It's like condoning a street mugger for stealing from someone else and saying "they only did that to hustle or get something out of their crappy situation".

Definitely not a victimless crime lol

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Apr 26, 2019

guy from my high school bio class cheated on all his exams was a masterful manipulator and still got into Yale (no legacy) such is life

Apr 28, 2019

Sad to see how many on here who either don't give a shit about integrity or enable it. This is why I wish the U.S had mandatory military service like Germany, Singapore, Israel, etc. Service drills core ethics such as integrity into young, stupid, impressionable minds who need to get smacked up when they stray the course. Some of you dipshits need that in your life. Your beyond pathetic and all the keyboard warrioring in the world wont change that. Those with no integrity have been the enemy of progress since the beginning of human civilization.

Apr 28, 2019
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Apr 28, 2019
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Array

Apr 30, 2019
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JM28

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Jun 8, 2019
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JUST DO IT. Don't let your memes be dreams.