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5/15/12

I'm Betsy Massar, founder of Master Admissions. I'm glad to be here on Wall Street Oasis back with kindred spirits. Right out of Harvard Business School I worked for Goldman Sachs and have spent most of my professional career in and around the financial industry. I worked on both the sell and buy sides (Barclays Global Investors, now BlackRock), and have worked on Wall Street, Asia, and San Francisco.

You might think I am partial to HBS, but I'm actually quite fond of Stanford Graduate School of Business, as a communications and resume coach and an editor of GSB professors' academic papers. I am also a writer for the Journal of PortfolioManagement. Back to MBA admissions, I'm a member of the Association of International Graduate Admissions Consultants, the industry group, and a bit of an ethical watchdog on all things MBA admissions.

Lately I've been doing pro-bono work for the Forte Foundation, which has really amazing resources for women, and for a group called Service2School.org, which offers free application counseling to military vets.

And yes, that's me communing with a monkey in the pic.

For this Q&A thread, I'd like to focus on these two things:

  1. How you can improve your profile to get into one of the best business schools in the world
  2. How to talk about leadership in your application.

In both cases, the answers may surprise you.

I look forward to reading your questions and learning about you.
If you keep it to just a paragraph or two, it's easier for everyone to read and for me to include your question in my response. No worries about follow up questions, please ask!

I will do my best to check in often and respond promptly.

Comments (620)

12/30/13

quick answer as I just realized I didn't follow up on this and I have to get on a plane: read my answer to to Sacklodge about living your life for the next four years.

Also think about an alternative transcript.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

Accepted.com
1/22/14

Hi Betsy, thank you in advance.

Do you think that 2/3 years experience is enough to give you the best chance of getting the most out of an MBA?

With particular reference to Harvard 2+2, is there actually any benefit to applying as an undergraduate rather than whilst working? I believe when applying to 2+2 it is harder to find decent references simply due to circumstances.

1/27/14

Hi Laud,
You've asked a couple of good questions -- both of which have different answers depending on your own experience. I will start generally, and if you want to tweak the question a bit, feel free to go ahead.

So, 2-3 years experience is definitely enough experience to get in, if that's the question, which it may not be. As you can see by the chart that's embedded in this blog post, plenty of students get into Harvard Business School with
3 years or less.
http://masteradmissions.com/wp/2014/01/06/apply-now-or-later/

You actually asked a better question, is it "enough to give you the best chance of getting the most out of an MBA"?
And that's really personal. It depends on what the 2 - 3 years of full time experience really offered. Many applicants switch jobs after 2 years or so, and then have the advantage of more than one employer experience. That is definitely true if you go from one industry or another, or one kind of function, or you simply take on a lot more or different responsibility.
That doesn't mean you have to switch, or even work longer. If you feel that you are at your own inflection point, that is, that you are as open and ready as you will be now vs. 2 years from now, or even a year from now, you should at least visit schools and network with current students and alums. That kind of research will help you in either case.
Then if you do apply, and don't get in, it's not the end of the world. Because you can reapply and change up your game -- and that, indeed, is a positive.

As for 2+2 and other deferred admit programs, first, you have to apply while in school. That's the deal. They do not offer deferred admits to those who just started, although it's an interesting idea. And not even sure why they don't.
But those are the rules. Given that, what other question do you have?

And if you are simply worried about references, sounds like there might be something else going on that concerns you... is it about not having solid enough work experience? Even if it is just internships or part-time jobs?

let me know. Promise I will be on top of this thread more frequently!

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

1/28/14

Thank you for the answers Betsy!

I'm not worried about having solid enough work experience, and have an Investment Banking summer position lined up. I'm just concerned that my referees will most likely both have to be from the bank?

My leadership experiences are all society based (or volunteering abroad! I can't imagine they'd be writing a reference that is competitive). People at university in the UK don't seem to know the students as well, so there's no way they could write about constructive criticism and leadership qualities.

12/24/13

Hi Betsy,

My brother is applying to b-school within the next 2 years.
His profile:
Bachelor of Engineering (mechanical) from a top 20 college in India.
Investment banking analyst - India - for 1 year - 2 deals under his belt
Private Equity analyst, promoted to senior analyst - Indonesia/Malaysia - 2 years and counting - 1 deal under his belt
Started an online company in college that went bust - no revenues or anything
Average extra curriculars, average academics
Goal: to continue working in PE at a higher level (for which an MBA is required)

Could you please tell me:
1. What colleges should he apply to as an Indian wanting to work in PE within the US/EU?
2. How should he deal with his above average academic background?
3. Is PE hiring students that need a Visa sponsorship? If so, can you give me an idea of which ones?
4. What should my brother do from now till he applies (within next 2 years) to strengthen his candidature?

Thank you.

12/30/13

Hi uncmba,
Your brother sounds like a candidate who meets the broad qualifications for a good school, but that's just the beginning. Average academics doesn't help, so he's going to have to make up for it with a lot of leadership experience.

He should do his own research, meet people, network, and figure out what school is the right fit. Almost anything I tell you here would be painfully generic.

As to the Visa situation, sponsorship is incredibly hard for any field. Ask around on another forum here in WSO if anyone has done it. PE is the hardest field in the world to get into, so I think your brother might have a tough road ahead of him Visa-wise.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/6/15

(wrong post)

12/30/13

Hi Green_Mike,
thanks for the kind words. UCLA is fine -- to be honest, I think the UC San Diego online course is cheaper, that works for you. Although there is nothing like sitting in a class to remind yourself what it is like to go to school.
Right now, and this may change as education upends itself, an accredited institution that gives a grade is all you need. It definitely can be online. Sometimes community colleges offer cheaper courses, but when in doubt, I'd go with the 4-year school. Obviously avoid schools like University of Phoenix.
I think calculus and stats are your first best choices. Accounting if you haven't taken it before because you will never regret it. After that, it's up to you.

But having said that, if you have a European master in finance (reading this more carefully now), that might mitigate your middling GPA. Why not just take calc and stats if you didn't take them before (although I find that hard to believe you need them now) and then study like mad for the GMAT and be really interesting on the application.
How's that for a plan?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

1/28/14

Hi Laud,
As for your references, you surely can ask two people from your summer internship at the investment bank if you would like. There's no rule against that for HBS or any other school. I do know that Dee Leopold has said publicly that it is perfectly OK to have more than one recommender from a firm.

As for your assumption that the volunteer recommenders might not be competitive, why not? If they knew you and they felt that you were a strong contributor, what would prohibit them from writing something about you that's genuine? I don't think you should write that option off, if you've done some interesting and meaningful work, and they have something genuine to say about you.

I advise against university professors no matter what. Admissions committee folks state very clearly that a university professor cannot provide the information they are looking for about your behavior in a business setting.

Anything else?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

1/29/14

Hey Betsy,

Thanks for putting this thread together. I've enjoyed reading the advice you give, and now I'm hoping to get some.

For what it's worth, I've debated with myself the value of the MBA over the last 2-3 years, and I've finally decided to take the plunge. I've debated with myself the value of the MBA over the last 2-3 years, and I've finally decided to take the plunge. I want to taste that sweet, sweet pedigree and strap myself into the catapult named "Career Trajectory".

My target schools are Harvard + Stanford for all the standard reasons and as an opportunity to move outside of the Midwest for at least 2-years. I would also consider Booth, Northwestern, and Wharton, but staying in Chicago or moving to Philly is less appealing.

After grad school, my goal is to find a role as a senior analyst at a top value shop with a "suggestivist" bent, such as ValueAct.

I'm still pretty early in the process so I have no idea I how attractive is my profile (been told good enough to try) or what score to aim for on the GMAT.

1) Any feedback on my chances for Harvard or Stanford? I recognize these are two of the most competitive schools.

2) I'm expecting my extracurriculars to be the weakest part of my resume. What is the most impressive thing I can do between now and application time?

One thing I've consistently done since graduation is help current student with breaking into Wall Street via mentoring, networking, giving advice, etc... How do you think that sounds? I worry that my "extracurricular" is too related to my career, and doesn't show me off as a well rounded person. I'm actually incredible funny, charming, and handsome. Oh shit...almost forgot to say that I'm modest too!

*waits for the laughs*

3) I was also hoping to get some advice on "how to frame my background" for school like Harvard vs. Stanford?

The future goals things is something that I struggle with too - from an application perspective. I genuinely want to learn how to be a manager/run a business so that I can be a better investor. I want to be in a position where I can have a relationship with the management teams of my portfolio companies and give them capital allocation and strategy advice, as one day I may want to pursue an activist strategy. But, I wonder if that sounds too "small" for the MBA application. Maybe I should say something along the lines of "leveraging the financial analysis skills I learned from my career with the managerial skills I hope to learn during my time at [insert B school] to open up my own [insert entrepreneurial idea]."

If my dreams are dinged by the adcoms, I'll be forced to grind my way into success.

Here's a brief summary of my profile:

White male
Immigrant from Europe
First generation college student
Will be 27 years old when matriculating
Big 10 undergrad
Graduated with degrees in finance and accounting
With honors/distinction and 3.7 GPA
Started career in sell-side research at well-regarded Midwestern investment bank
While at the bank, I learned all the prerequisite financial statement and modeling skills
On my 2-year anniversary, got promoted from junior associate to associate
After 32 months on the sell-side, moved to a the buy side as an equity analyst
10+ billion asset manager
I'm the only analyst that works on our long-only products as well as out newly seeded L/S fund
I source and research all my ideas. I speak directly to CFOs and CEOs. Planning/hoping to get one of my LORs from a CFO I have a good relationship with.
Completed each level of CFA on my first try. Will get the charter in 4-months.
Will have about 2.5 years of buy side experience assuming a Fall 2015 start date
About 5-years of work experience in total

Thank you,

KB

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KarateBoy

2/9/14

Hi KarateBoy,
I am so sorry not to get back to you in a timely fashion. For some reason my WSO notifications are off, and I don't know when someone is posting on the thread. I know, blame someone else!

So, let's put first things first. The first thing you have to do if you are ready to really take the plunge is take the GMAT, and without a gmat score, all bets are off. Otherwise, all I'm doing is giving you random words to say, like, "hey, you have a great shot."

I will say that what you've told me about yourself doesn't make me think that admissions officers will be jumping all over themselves to recruit you. I am not seeing anything that special about an investment management guy who wants to be an investment management guy. Stanford Business School is dead serious when it says it wants its students to "Change Lives. Change Organizations. Change the World." Students are constantly encouraged to live that dream. For example, tomorrow I am coaching first-year GSB student in TED type presentations on just that subject -- (check out this link on "L.O.W. keynotes" http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/lowkeynotes).
Yes, I know I am holding up a high standard, but the students who get into these programs have a really global standard for themselves. So-- convince us here on this forum!

Your GPA is fine and strong. But I actually don't see why you need an MBA. You have a CFA. (almost). You are a smart guy, but I'm much more interested in hearing more about your mentoring -- what it means to you, what your bigger goals are, and like what HBS says about its students, they "educate leaders who make a difference in the world."http://www.hbs.edu/about/Pages/default.aspx

Even at Wharton, which I know is less attractive to you but getting out of the Midwest would probably be a good idea, they are promoting the philosophy of giving rather than taking. Professor Adam Grant is Wharton's superstar right now, and his whole philosophy is on giving out -- that is, what's your contribution? https://mgmt.wharton.upenn.edu/profile/1323/

Here's what I recommend: think about your own leadership style. Is karate part of it? what does that say about your energy, power, and philosophy?
Start reading books on leadership and thinking more broadly. That will help you position yourself to take part in an elite managerial program. Oh, and get your GMAT under your belt.

Make sense?

Betsy

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

3/3/14

Hey Betsy,

Thanks for getting back to me - and now I apologize for my slow reply.

A couple of things jump out to me from your reply:

1) I got my gmat prep books and I'll follow-up when I get my score.

2) All my sources tell me that a guy who has investment experience prior to the MBA is rare and I would have nearly 2-years upon matriculation. My hope is that this sets me up for a good career trajectory and appeals to the adcoms.

3) Just to clarify, you believe that writing how I want to "change the world" would be a more compelling reason for the MBA than wanting to become a better business analyst?

I can see myself writing/talking about pairing my financial analysis skills with the management skills I hope to learn in other to improve the educational system. What do all the other people who are using the MBA to break into finance write about?

4) I don't think I do need an MBA, especially now that I'm (almost) a CFA and my performance has been pretty good so far. The value of the MBA is something I've debated with myself for over 3-years and the conclusion I reached was only Harvard/Stanford/etc... will provide enough of a benefit to my career that it's worth leaving. I hope that pairing my talents with the pedigree/network of these institutions will accelerate my path to a PM, particularly if I want to raise my own capital.

5) My handle is KarateBoy because I used to compete in regional and national tournaments. It combined a lot of things I'm passionate about: competition, self-improvement, physical fitness, mental toughness, and mentoring. I quickly grew into one the best fighters at our gym, as evidenced my numerous titles. The component that set me apart was that I WASN'T a brawler given my relatively smaller frame, but that I was a very good technical fighter. To me, fighting is more of a chess match than anything else. As this became obvious to other, I dedicated my time to training and mentoring others.

This desire can again be vividly seen after I graduated college and became an alumni mentor of a club for student interested in a job in finance. I also like giving back to this board: //www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/ama-im-an-investment-...

I'm now looking to join a charitable organization to help improve/reform education as I think the system is broken and its a subject I care about (1st generation college student from blue collar parents).

6) Let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on anything else: I'm enjoying the conversation.

Betsy Massar:

Hi KarateBoy,

I am so sorry not to get back to you in a timely fashion. For some reason my WSO notifications are off, and I don't know when someone is posting on the thread. I know, blame someone else!

So, let's put first things first. The first thing you have to do if you are ready to really take the plunge is take the GMAT, and without a gmat score, all bets are off. Otherwise, all I'm doing is giving you random words to say, like, "hey, you have a great shot."

I will say that what you've told me about yourself doesn't make me think that admissions officers will be jumping all over themselves to recruit you. I am not seeing anything that special about an investment management guy who wants to be an investment management guy. Stanford Business School is dead serious when it says it wants its students to "Change Lives. Change Organizations. Change the World." Students are constantly encouraged to live that dream. For example, tomorrow I am coaching first-year GSB student in TED type presentations on just that subject -- (check out this link on "L.O.W. keynotes" http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/lowkeynotes).

Yes, I know I am holding up a high standard, but the students who get into these programs have a really global standard for themselves. So-- convince us here on this forum!

Your GPA is fine and strong. But I actually don't see why you need an MBA. You have a CFA. (almost). You are a smart guy, but I'm much more interested in hearing more about your mentoring -- what it means to you, what your bigger goals are, and like what HBS says about its students, they "educate leaders who make a difference in the world."http://www.hbs.edu/about/Pages/default.aspx

Even at Wharton, which I know is less attractive to you but getting out of the Midwest would probably be a good idea, they are promoting the philosophy of giving rather than taking. Professor Adam Grant is Wharton's superstar right now, and his whole philosophy is on giving out -- that is, what's your contribution? https://mgmt.wharton.upenn.edu/profile/1323/

Here's what I recommend: think about your own leadership style. Is karate part of it? what does that say about your energy, power, and philosophy?

Start reading books on leadership and thinking more broadly. That will help you position yourself to take part in an elite managerial program. Oh, and get your GMAT under your belt.

Make sense?

Betsy

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KarateBoy

3/3/14

Hi Betsy,

I am looking at schools to apply to in R3.

My profile:
- International with lots of work/study experiences in several countries
- V. distinct successful entrepreneurial experience
- Overcoming some adversity
- GMAT: 770 (Q49,V47)
- Achilles heel: V. poor GPA equivalent (sub-3.0)

I am considering Kellogg and Booth. Do I have a chance? How competitive really is round 3? By how much do the odds decrease compared to R2 and R1? Any other top top 10 schools you would recommend for R3?

Thanks.

3/4/14

Ah, the Round 3 problem. The short answer is that yes, the odds are pretty slim, but not impossible. I've been writing about this for several years running (here's a sample blog post http://masteradmissions.com/wp/2013/03/13/mba-thir...) -- and it doesn't change -- people do get admitted in Round 3 all the time. But not that many. Will you be one of the lucky ones?

Well, tell us here on the forum -- why are you taking your chances now ?

The best reason is because you've been really busy at work and had some fantastic career experiences that have kept you from applying in Round 1 or 2. Most schools plan to take about 90% of their applicants in Round 1 or 2. But they leave space open for someone who might fit in the pool -- someone they haven't seen before who has unique experience. I am about to go off to dinner with someone who is applying this round and he's very different. His industry is unique and I personally think he will add to the experiences of his future classmates. He's no cookie cutter guy.

Having said all that, I would be a little anxious about your low GPA. Many students go for an alternative transcript to show that they are able to put their nose to the grindstone once they get serious. Even Coursera classes are starting to become viable, if you take it for official credit. I know that's not something you can do between now and the 3rd round deadline, but if things don't work out, you might want to look into that option.
I'm also having a hard time saying anything about your chances without knowing anything about you. I spent many hours with current students in my communications coaching role at the GSB and in the admissions consulting biz, and I can tell you that the top and most successful students are really three-dimensional. They are leaders in both their heads AND their hearts. So that's why I have to say that anyone's ability to predict your chances is kind of iffy.

The reality is that if you think you can put a great application together and do the self reflection required to show yourself as a 3D genuine leader of character, then you have a shot.

Make sense?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

3/6/14

Thank you for the response Betsy.
As for an alternate transcript, I have levels 1 and 2 of the CFA, as well as an explanation for poor GPA. Any my GMAT is stratospherically high (770)

Do you have rough estimates of percentage acceptances? For instance, Kellogg might have an acceptance rate of 25%. What might their R3 acceptance rate be? Under 10%? Under 5%?

3/7/14

The rates are probably 10% or less, but like you and everyone else on this forum, I am making an educated guess.
It also changes year by year, as the populations change year by year. A few years ago more students applied in R1 because of a GMAT change, and so that skewed acceptances. You really don't know.
Most admissions officers do
encourage you apply when you are ready. And they also do encourage you to explain why you are applying on the later side of the cycle. See click on the Tuck link in this blog post and you will see what they suggest
http://masteradmissions.com/wp/2014/03/04/talking-...

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

3/4/14

Realized that even if the article on Round 3 MBA chances from last year is valid, it is still old. So, I've updated the article, with some new quotes by HBS admissions director Dee Leopold.
Here are some tidbits:

I've personally seen a number of students go through successful third-round quests, but it isn't for the faint-hearted.

First the odds are more competitive, as admissions committee members from Tuck recently posted on their blog. But not impossible....

Do apply third round if

--You realize that there are other schools after HBS and Stanford GBS
--You improved your GMAT score by enough to put you within the target school's range
--Your work or life situation changed
--You are considering part-time programs when you only applied to full-time programs

You should NOT apply third round if

--You only want to go to a top 5 school and you didn't get into the top 4
--You are outside of the school's class profile
--You aren't sure what you want to do
--The thought of filling out another application gives you a rash
--You hate your life and it just occurred to you to get an MBA last week
http://masteradmissions.com/wp/2014/03/04/talking-...

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

3/5/14

Hi Betsy -

I was wondering if you could assess my profile and provide a few schools at which you think I would be competitive.

My profile:
GMAT: 710
Undergrad GPA: 2.93 from Penn State - Engineering
Master's GPA: 3.98 from Lehigh University - Manufacturing Engineering / Supply Chain

Will have almost 6 years of work experience before application period in Fall '14.

Current Work experience:
2.5 years for non-profit / government - leadership role over saw all aspects of housing operations for portfolio of 1400 affordable housing units.
2.5 years in manufacturing / supply chain for F500 cosmetics company (Estee Lauder, L'Oreal, etc...). Started in manufacturing, lean process improvement projects, etc...now a supply planning manager.

Extra-Curriculars real estate investing (rent 3 properties) and club sports during undergrad

Goal would be to use business school to become more well rounded (better overall business skills) and either return to industry or enter consulting. Would I'd be competitive at a Ross, Fuqua, Darden? Dream / reach school would be Wharton.

6/11/14

Hey PSU, I was going over this thread to see what recent posts I missed and saw that I never replied to you here. I am sorry! Since writing, do you have any more thoughts on your question? Now that we are closer to the Round 1 cycle, and the stats are coming out for last year's class, we can get a better fix on opportunities for you.
But before I do that, I would like to know how you got into grad school with a middling GPA (less than 3.0 is always tough) . Clearly you made up for it in grad school, though.
You will be on the old side -- not that it matters everywhere -- and it's still within the normal distribution -- but I do think you have some solid experience. Guarantee that if a school like Darden doesn't want you for the 2-year program, they will try to foist the executive program on you. Seen it done several times. They will be pretty up front.
As for Duke and Ross, they are less aggressive about their executive programs, and in both cases you need to demonstrate fit and propensity for fun.
But tell me if you are still interested in a more detailed response -- as it has been so long

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

3/6/14

Betsy,

Please see my profile here:
http://gmatclub.com/forum/updated-profile-can-i-ma...

I'm currently working with a consultant who says I should be targeting the top 7-ish schools (Booth, Columbia, Stern, Kellogg, etc.). With my recent hire at a PE firm I was wondering if it's possible in any way for me to make the jump to HSW-eligibility. What do you think and, if so, what kinds of things could I do between now and applications to help?

3/15/14

so sorry for the delay in reply. WSO is not pinging me (blame the system!) when I am getting new queries on this forum.
First, I have to defer to the other consultant, who knows much more about you and has been able to talk with you more than I can -- I've seen a tiny sliver of you -- and that's just in a public forum, when the other consultant knows how you show up one-on-one.

I'd delighted you got the job at the PE firm and you have a chance to make a difference because there are not so many layers, so make sure that by the time you apply you have some genuine accomplishments, rather than just being in training. I appreciate that I am asking for a lot in a short time, but just getting hired doesn't mean as much as having a material impact on the organization. You say you might get promoted, and that would be good if the promotion had something to do with your added value to the firm.

I also don't want you to say that you weren't in a leadership position when you worked as a mechanical engineer. There are plenty of opportunities for you to show your leadership -- it doesn't matter whether you had the team title or not. Everyone in and collaborative endeavor can be a leader -- and should be.

Your habit of non-profit and NGO leadership is a good thing, and will help your candidacy. On the other hand, your 3.0 GPA, even in honors, isn't that close to the average GPA of most of the top 10 schools, but your CFA level 1 and your nice GMAT may easily compensate for that.

Also, do you have any international experience? That's always a help. Many schools are so globally focused that they want people to work in international teams, if they haven't had the chance to work outside their own country.
I won't say it's a check-the-box, but it's important.

sorry again for the delay in responding!

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

3/17/14

I studied abroad for a semester in Britain, but that's the extent of my international experience. Got A's in both classes I took, though

3/17/14

Some might snark at me for saying this, but the UK doesn't really count as foreign enough. From me, a focus group of 1, having lived and worked in London for a year, and having worked for Brit employers (Barclays, Jardines, Euromoney) for more than 10 years, they feel foreign. But it isn't the same as working in a really different environment than the US, and also from a focus group of 1, (me), working in Taiwan and Vietnam count as different.
All of this is to say that if you had the chance to make a big change in the way your application is viewed, you might want to do an internship in a country where you have to deal with a different language and culture. Ask @shorttheworld -- he moved to Brazil for a year and worked on a startup and it certainly turned his worldview around.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

3/17/14

I understand what you're saying completely. I did think of another thing I did, which is that when I was in college I was part of a group that was crucial in the development of a sister city program with a South American city. We organized trips to the city, too, though I never went.

Unfortunately with this job and applying to school in the fall I don't know how I could possibly get international experience. I was considering Engineers Without Borders, as I've worked with them before, and could keep my job and just take off work to travel to do site visits and whatnot, but that's all I can possibly think of.

3/17/14

Hi again, I don't think it would hurt to do the Engineers without Borders, just for the connections -- given your service orientation. And you might actually have a good time doing it. (Makes me wish they had service trips for people like me).

Re the sister city: Definitely the idea of enhancing relations with other cities and other peoples demonstrates a global mindset, which is almost required at business school these days.

Also, If your current job gives you any opportunity to work with international teams, even from your US location, that's also a good way to demonstrate your global mindset. Have you ever tried to convince someone from another country and another culture that your idea is worth consideration? It requires a range of communications and leadership abilities, and is different from having that discussion in the break room with a peer.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

3/24/14

To anyone who is waiting the outcome of the remaining Round 2 decisions for the next entering MBA class, I wish you the best of luck! I know this week will be crazy, waiting for phone calls or for Weds to come around... so best to all of you!
Here are the relevant dates:

Wharton: Tues, Mar 25 (alumni made calls in the past --check me on this)
Kellogg: Tues, Mar 25
Darden: Tues Mar 25
Stanford GSB: Weds Mar 26 (calls go out previous day, sometimes late into the night)
HBS: Weds Mar 26 (online only, no calls)
Haas: Weds Mar 26
Chicago Booth: Thurs Mar 27 (calls can go out earlier)
LBS: Thurs Mar 27 (London time!)

MIT Sloan and NYU Stern are April 1 -- forever!
UCLA Anderson is April 2 -- more forever!
Columbia is still rolling

What am I missing?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

3/27/14

Hi Betsy,

Recently, I've seen a few threads pop up asking for people's opinion on corporate/commerical banking to get into Top MBA. I wanted to ask - are corporate bankers placed into the same "bucket" as traditional IBD/PE candidates? On that note, would a BB corporate banker with 2/3 years of experience with good GPA, GMAT and EC be competitive for M7? Thanks!

3/31/14

Hi Blue Shirt, so sorry to have taken so long to get back to you. I try not to come on WSO on the weekends -- can you imagine a diet of WSO 7 days a week?
But back to your question -- I actually think that corporate banking is considered finance, and if a school's admissions officers look at "finance" in one group, then sure. But you can see by my flip response, I wouldn't say that it always works that way.
First, my initial reaction is that corporate banking is probably pretty rare these days. You see many more people from the big investment firms, and a lot of them do look alike, You are actually differentiated by working directly with a company on the lending side, and if your business is relationship management, you probably know more about the operations of your clients' companies than someone in investment banking, to be honest.
I did work with a commercial banker recently, and it was fun because the stories were more about expansion capital for smaller firms that were just breaking out. It was fun to hear the excitement about entrepreneurship that was working -- although she was pretty much in the smtall-to-middle market.
Still, lending isn't as glamorous these days, which actually makes it more interesting.

But I am guessing the question is more about you -- do you stand a chance? And the answer is, how do you show up in your work? Are you the guy everyone wants to have on their team? Do you generate ideas for new services or new approaches to old processes? Do clients ask for you? Or like you because they trust you?
These questions speak to the quality of your experience, which is what top business schools are looking for.

Would you be competitive? To be honest, your information is a little too thin for me to make a prediction that would be of value to you. Here's how it works -- naturally to even be considered in a competitive pool, your numbers should be good. I've seen outliers, but it's easier not to have to argue your way out of a low GPA or GMAT.
Then, the real question is about your patterns of leadership. Are you someone who takes initiative? Are you involved in your community? (however you define community -- your peer group, your church, your neighborhood, your world?
And finally, do you bring something to the table that students at a top business school want? Can they learn from you?

I am posing all these questions for you and others who might read this because that's what admissions readers want to know about you. You have to be different and interesting and smart. Are you all three? If so, you are competitive.

One final point -- you may find that 2/3 years post-college doesn't give you enough opportunity to showcase the different ways you are a leader. Some students have a lot of leadership by then, and others need to build on their history. Sometimes it makes sense to even switch jobs and challenge yourself.
Oh wait, that wasn't a final point, one more: if you have some international experience working outside of your home country and language, that's always helpful. Global citizens can add to the class in a fairly meaningful way.

Hope all these questions are helpful, not crazy-making!
Betsy

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/1/14

I want to thank you in advance for your time and effort to evaluate every one of us. Your work is greatly appreciated.

I have been working for a mid-sized (~20,000 employees) IT consulting company for a bit over a year. I actually applied for various Financial Engineering programs last year and got admitted to Columbia University. I debated whether I should pursue this opportunity for weeks, but I decided that MBA will allow me to pursue my dream in the long-run. I plan to apply for MBA schools in two to three years, but wanted to gauge where I stand currently. I want to improve my candidacy as much as possible to get into top 10, or even M7. My profile is shown below.

UGPA: 3.93/4.00, Top 5 engineering school, mechanical engineering, management minor
Graduate GPA: 3.55/4.00, same engineering school, mechanical engineering

GRE: Took the old GRE, 720/800/4.0 V/Q/AW
GMAT: Have not taken it yet, but I am aiming for 750+

Work experience: Have been working as an IT consultant for enterprise voice/business intelligence for a year. Mid-size IT consulting firm with 20k employees. Promoted once.

Certification: CFA Level 1 Exam, FRM Level 1 Exam, Microsoft Certified Solutions Associate (MCSA): Server 2012

Language spoken: English/Korean, both fluently

Future goals (prior to MBA): I am debating if I should go work for a smaller software consulting firm to take more responsibilities and hopefully move up the ladder more quickly. I don't plan to move to a bigger consulting firm as of now, but I am open to suggestions.

Career goals: There are three possibilities. First option is to join a startup company. I like to learn business from bottom-up and grow a business at an exponential rate (hopefully). More details on why I would like to join a startup company is explained in Speical Note section below. Second option is to join management consulting. I am interested in giving strategic advice in regards to business operation. Lastly, I am willing to join technology firms such as Google and Facebook.

EC: I like to tutor people. I used to serve as a teaching assistant while in school. As of now, I am not doing anything in that sense, but I want to get involved in voluntary tutoring. Also, I have been involved in some leadership roles at church.

Hobbies: Nothing spectacular. Running, working out, reading, writing. One thing I plan to do is finish a half marathon before I submit application.

Special note: One of biggest personal accomplishments I had was losing 110 pounds of weight in less than a year. This required serious determination and I managed to maintain healthy weight for more than six years. I am looking for a way or an idea to share my stories and impact other people's lives in some way.

Do I have any chance? What do I need to do to improve my candidacy? My main concern is that I do not have as solid work experience as other candidates do (a random IT consulting firm). Would I be better off by moving to a smaller consulting firm where I can have more impact or should I try to join a big consulting firm? I think Deloitte or Accenture is within the reach, but I am not sure how long it will take me to join either. I would sincerely appreciate your evaluation. Thank you so much.

5/2/14

Hi,

A few more quick questions that recently popped up:

1) How do top (M7) MBA programs view a traditional 3 year bachelor's degree vs. one that includes a 4th honours year? (degree outside the US). Is the honours year a big bonus in the eyes of adcoms?
2) How would adcoms view a fourth honours year vs. an additional year of work experience instead, or a year of volunteer work overseas (possibly IN the US)?
3) Does being from outside the US confer the additional application benefit I've heard it does because of diversity etc? Is this still true when the country is English speaking/developed (Australia)?

Thanks!

5/5/14

Hi there NotHospER,
I'm going to deal with your questions a few at a time, mostly because many folks, (including me!) have a very short attention span, and don't have the patience to go through very long posts. Also, aren't a lot of people reading this stuff on their mobiles? So I'm going to just see what I can offer in the first 3 questions for now

1. The question, How do top programs view a traditional 3 year degree vs. a 4th honors year outside the US?
They look at how much you have challenged yourself in your time at school. If the honors year challenges you, yes, it is positive. Why wouldn't it be?
2. I knew you were going to ask this next question -- how would they view a 4th honors year vs work experience. The answer is that it depends on your entire profile. If you are trying to decide between the two, they both have their advantages and disadvantages. Whatever is more purposeful and true to what you want to do with your life is probably the best answer. The question is really too theoretical -- you could be successful under both accounts, to be honest.
3. I think being international is more interesting, personally, but that doesn't give you any free rides in the admissions game. I think if you have spent time out of Australia, that adds to your global focus, but just because you are not from the USA doesn't really mean that much, especially since you are from a developed, English speaking country with a long history of candidates to business schools in the US. Some on this forum may disagree, but there aren't too many free rides. But hey, you have the Menzies fellowship if you get into Harvard
http://www.menziesfoundation.org.au/scholarships/s...

I hope some of this is helpful. I worry that I am not giving you yes/no answers, and that's because there's not a lot of data on whether these issues are causal success factors.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/7/14

Thanks for the info, this is definitely helpful.

5/5/14

Hi,

To add to my last questions, I have a few more that I hope you won't mind answering:

1) If you have any experience with law school admissions: do you know if I need to have a demonstrated interest in law (eg internships, volunteer work etc) to be admitted to top MBA/JD programs from an IB background? Or is clearly outlining my intentions enough?
2) I know 700 used to be the "safe" gmat score and that's not usually good enough/positive anymore - is there a new consensus? Is a 730+ considered positive, or a 750+ etc? Is there a breakdown for a "positive" score (eg 90th percentile in both quantitative and verbal)?
3) Do schools view applications a little more leniently if you're applying for a MBA/JD and you've been admitted to one school but not yet the other? For example, if I apply for a MBA/JD at an M7 school and am admitted to the MBA program, but am not one of the most competitive applicants for the JD (because of a lack of law experience, which would be my biggest issue), would they be more inclined to admit me than if I hadn't applied for the joint program and been accepted by the business school?

Thanks so much!

5/7/14

1 Regarding law school admissions, it makes sense to show an interest in things legal, but you don't have to have worked for a law firm or in a legal department of a company to be admitted to a top school. Like any graduate program, your desire to go to law school has to be roughly consistent with some of the steps you have already taken in your professional life.
It is almost impossible to get a bachelor of laws in the US, but I know it is common in Australia. I just worked with a candidate who was a joint law/finance student in undergraduate in Australia. He is going to HBS in the fall (cool!)
So don't worry about not having taken law courses in undergrad-- that's not a driver.
2. I have been very clear on this all over these forums. The total score is not the point. High quant, over 48 or 49 is required combined with a strong verbal -- particularly if you are a native speaker.
3. No, they do not look more leniently if you are applying to a joint program. If anything, they are more rigorous, in that they want to know you can compress 5 years' work into 4.
Some schools make their decisions independently -- but no one is going to cut you slack because you applied to a joint program

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/7/14

Hi Betsy,

I just wanted to thank you for answering all my questions in another thread I had, and ask you another question.

MBA schools say that you must include all transcripts from undergraduate institutions you have attended. Does this have to include classes in high school that I could have gotten credit for, but chose not to ever transfer to my undergraduate school?

They were taken in the actual high school rather than on the campus, but we could have gotten credits for them. As of now I don't even know what they are and neither does my school. I don't think I did that well in them either, especially compared to college, so if I can help it I'd rather exclude them.

Thanks!

5/8/14

SORRY! I didn't see this question -- so I am like a day late on this.
Per your question: No, unless the course was taken at a university, you do not have to send them. Even if you had gotten credit for them (and they would show up as AP classes on your transcript), they don't have grades attached, and that's normal.
Besides, admissions committee members are more interested in your more recent grades--high school is a way too different environment to be predictive of how you will do in business school.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/9/14

Thanks! I'm not talking about AP classes, but ones that were offered in high school that went through real universities in my area such as a community college and then state college.

5/9/14

I don't think it is a black mark to leave them off -- but now you have me curious. Why not just add them? Also, do they show up as transferred credits on your current transcript?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/9/14

I believe I got a B or B+ and an A- in two of them which would bring down my GPA. Then the other one was a Calculus class I took my senior year that I didn't do any work for and performed poorly. I don't think I ever got credit since you had to have a certain grade for it to count. They also don't show up on my transcript either.

5/10/14

Hi Betsy,

I received a summer internship offer in equity research from a top bulge bracket bank (i.e. JPM, Morgan Stanley, GS). I have heard it mentioned that "gold" for H/S/W was GS/MS/KKR, and I was wondering if that applied to equity research as well as banking? I know top BB ER recruits a lot from HBS and also there have been placements into HBS.

Banks like Bank of America, Deutsche, Barclays etc. do full-time recruiting for IB at my school. I was also wondering from a purely H/S/W adcom perspective, would a ER stint at Morgan Stanley be looked upon worse/better than investment banking at more mid-tier BB like Deutsche or BAML?

I apologize for the focus on prestige but since it is a factor I was just hoping for your advice in terms of choosing a job coming out of undergrad, thanks for your help!

5/14/14

Sorry I didn't see this post until just now. It's really weird and something that keeps happening! (I know, I always blame WSO.) So, I don't want to say that if you work for a certain firm it is a sure bet you get in anywhere. It just isn't clear.
So if you are saying "hey Joe worked at Goldman and that's why he got in" the answer is -- not so. I have seen many great candidates get in who didn't have any brand name on their resume, but they made clear what impact they had on their organization and they made their organization understandable and interesting to the admissions reader.
And of course I know many students from those firms who didn't get in-- some of whom actually post on WSO.

So even if there is some correlation, I don't know if you can make the argument for causation,

As for the specific question, I think admissions folk don't place so much weight on the difference between BAML or Morgan Stanley, It's much much much more about you and how you do what you do. Take the job that will give you room to stretch and challenge yourself. And the one that has the most international opportunity.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/6/14

Hello!

I am a current undergrad at a top target uni outside the states, aiming to apply for HBS 2+2 and Stanford deferred next year or in 2016. Reason for applying (slightly unclear at the moment): want to transition into the business side of a tech company. But to be honest I am not fixated with one particular reason behind applying.

Current profile:
Academics: Studying a pure science/ maths course at a "prestigious" uni. Grades have been in the top 5% in a class of 200 so far- but given the competition this may change. GMAT: yet to be taken.

WE: First summer: analytics and corp dev at a tech company in Asia. This summer: Interning in M&A at a well-known investment bank.

ECs: President of a uni wide business soc (helped bring high profile speakers like fortune CEOs, nobel laureates etc. to speak, large conferences, etc.); captaining a sports team at inter-university level, involved with entrepreneurs soc, etc.

Background: Nationality: a politically unstable Asian country with very few applications to HBS/ GSB. Moved to current country during teens, currently funding my uni costs through a large scholarship.

My main question is outside academics, what should I be doing to stand out? In terms of work experience working in banking may work against me as it is so common- anything recommended here? More importantly, for ECs what kind of things would be recommended? I have a few ideas which I am genuinely interested in, but I fear that are somewhat unlinked to each other and will not help towards create a progression story.

Thanks.

6/9/14

Hello almostsurely,
Like the others here, I am so sorry for the delay in response. I have been away and looking at schools and then just taking care of things, so it's unconscionably long since your question. My apologies.

I think it is probably interesting that you come from a politically unstable country and are probably now studying in a developed country. That is unusual, but that's not all that these programs care about. They do weight your grades and scores more than they do your internship experience, mostly because that's the most important metric they have for someone at your level. So stay in the top 5% (or more!) and get terrific gmat scores, particularly in quant.

As for how to stand out -- in the case of these deferred admit programs, the die is in some cases already cast. If you have shown a habit of leadership already, either through sports or extracurriculars, or community service or entrepreneurship, then you probably will be looked at ahead of students who are just good students and model citizens. Remember, these programs are tiny -- 100 students in the HBS cohort.
Now if you've already had a tradition of doing some great things, then keep on doing them! You obviously won a big scholarship for more than raw smarts, right? The same thing applies for business school -- make a name for yourself in your current community in some way.

Having said all that, you know there's no downside to applying. If you don't get in it just shows you tried, and that's a good thing.

Hope that helps,
Betsy

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/24/14

Betsy,

How much of a difference is a 3.92 vs. a 3.95 (magna vs. summa cum laude) matter for business school applications coming from a top undergrad business school?

6/9/14

Hi Semitar,
Sorry I haven't been on this forum for a while. I was visiting schools back east and got really busy!
My apologies.
Having said that, something tells me that I already responded to this question, perhaps in a private message? In any case, I think the difference of 3 basis points in a GPA is, as they say in law, de minimis.
I'm a little surprised that such a margin differentiates magna and summa -- but I do think that an almost 4.0 is probably going to look decent no matter what.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/26/14

Betsy,

I am seeking your expert opinion. I have been working for one year and am planning on applying to B-School in two more. I have two general questions in regards to my profile:

-Undergraduate: BA in Quantitative Economics, minor in Math. 3.74 overall (Magna Cum Laude). 3.9 in-major & minor and the Economics Medal for the highest in-major average in econ. OK private college but definitely not a feeder (think Fairfield/Elon). It's known for having an OK business school and has been ranked just inside the top 50 Bschools by Businessweek some years.

-GMAT: 740 (48Q, 44V)

-Work: Back-office finance role at one of GS/MS. Work in credit risk management. I have done an excellent job so far and am on the fast track to promotion, etc. I particularly focus on taking leadership on projects and process improvements. Letters of rec expected to be very strong

-Extracurricular: On a charity committee at work. I find local charities, get in contact with the directors, and set up times for employees from my office to volunteer. Additionally, I am involved in charity work outside of this. Also an avid guitarist and working out/fitness/health nut.

-Fun Facts: I grew up in a low-income household and went to private schools and college on grants & scholarships. My father did not go to college and my mother has a degree in sculpture. I also am nearly fluent in French and can understand Spanish as my mother's family is from Madrid (I am 1st generation US on that side). I was fully fluent going into college but have forgotten a bit of my French. I have been studying to regain fluency and I'd like to learn Spanish as well. Not the typical finance applicant and I hope to make this clear in my apps.

-Targeting: Wharton, Chicago, MIT, Columbia, Stern, and Yale for Investment Banking.

1. Is my list of schools unrealistic? Particularly Wharton.

-My profile has two glaring weaknesses that I am piquantly aware of: a non-target undergrad and a back-office (or middle-office for those who like to delude themselves) work role. Although I wish it weren't so, I expect this to significantly reduce my odds of admission at top-tier schools.

-I could work front-office at one of the smaller-name firms in my area but I feel as though working for a big-name firm is particularly helpful in my case since my undergrad was no-name. If I worked in a small IB shop, I'd be competing head-to-head against Ivy grads working in Bulge-Bracket IB. That's not a battle that I'd like to fight.

2. Should I retake the GMAT?

-I hadn't even considered this until recently, but the increase in the GMAT scores of finance applicants has me quite worried. I expect that medians for finance applicants fall around 740 at Wharton down to 720/730 at the lower end of my spectrum of target schools and are likely to increase by the time that I apply. I originally took the test on a whim because I did not know what I wanted to do at the time. 760+ is very feasible with some study.

I'm excited to hear your opinion.

-N

6/9/14

Dear N
Sorry for the delayed response -- I was out of town -- looking at schools, and then got all tied up, so there you go. Huge apologies!

I'm going to address the GMAT question first: I think a 740 is a perfectly respectable score. I would be surprised if an admissions officer would find a 20 point difference material in an overall application package. If you have nothing but time and feel like studying, sure, go crazy. BUT -- they see all your scores whether you report them or not. So if you do go down, they might consider it a reversion to mean.
I also don't think the argument about having to have a higher score because you are in finance holds much water. I think Your GPA (look good) and the quality of the courses you took are more important. Also, the kind of curiosity you showed when you were an undergraduate. Did you challenge yourself? that kind of thing, I know you took a lot of economics, but I think that admissions officers want to know if you took any other courses too that might show an interest in other things -- like Iberian literature, for example (figuring it's something you can relate to?) or neuroscience? Something that shows you took advantage of your academic time there.

Now to question 1:
Are those schools too much of a stretch? Well, it depends on what kind of an impact you have at work. I know that a back-office ops role at GS is not investment banking, but there are lots of ways you could have made a difference in your firm.
Remember, almost all letters of recommendation are very strong. How do you distinguish yourself compared to your peer group? That will be the difference, and much of that is related to your character. Are you the kind of person someone looks up to? That is, are you a leader?
If you think the answer is yes, then you are on the right track. That's the difference between the ok candidate and the winning candidate: *Character.*
After hearing years of it's about "authentic leadership", I'm tired of that and think it's getting overused. But it means that schools are looking for the material that makes people great. Not just good grades, not just on some work committee, but great.
And are you *interesting*?
And are you *original*, or have an original way of looking at the world or solving problems?

That's what you have to work on when you present yourself to them.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/26/14

Hi Betsy,

Thank you for all of the advice you've provided in this forum. I've read all of your responses and found them tremendously helpful.

I was wondering if you could advise me a bit about a quandary I've found myself in. I just graduated from a moderately well-known state school in the Northeast, and will be working full time in one the Big 4's Advisory services. Long term, I'm really interested in strategy.

My GPA while I've been at school is around a 3.7. The problem is that I started really strong, but I had 2 really tough semesters. I've always had trouble saying no, and both semesters I got really involved in extracurriculars, and found it hard to balance with my studies. Both times, my grades were in the B,B+ range. This is really upsetting, because I know that I'm otherwise a really strong students.

Outside of the classroom, I was a leader in my Beta Alpha Psi chapter, part of two of my school's honours societies, and really involved in my school's mentoring program. I'm also getting involved in club motorsports through my regional chapter of the Sports Car Club of America.

Currently, I'm working on studying for my GMAT and am striving to aim for a 720+. I'm also going to try to kill it at work, when I get there. I'm really interested in applying to BSchool in 3-4 years, especially GSB, HBS, Booth, Yale, and Berkeley.

Do you have any advice about how I can overcome my GPA struggles and best align myself to get into one of my targets?

Thanks again!

-racecars

6/11/14

Hi Racecars, I find myself apologizing in every post because I missed a bunch a few weeks ago. So, really, sorry to take so long to reply!
Can I turn it back to you with a question? Well, I will anyway: Why is a 3.7 a problem GPA? Is grade inflation so rampant? I believe -- and tell me if you see otherwise -- that 3.5 is the average at most top business schools.
What is your class rank?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/20/14

Hi Betsy,

No problem at all! Thanks for your help so far. In fact, I should apologise for getting back to you so late.

The reason for my question is that I graduated from a state school. I realise that I probably have a bit of an inferiority complex haha but I'm concerned about competing against people from more elite and prestigious schools with better GPAs. My 3.7 only puts me at the "cum laude" designation from my school and I'm worried that it will work against me.

My school unfortunately does not do class ranks, but I'm thinking that it might help that I majored in one of the more challenging and quantitative fields that the business school offered.

Thanks again,
racecars

6/25/14

Hi Racecars,
It could have been a typo in there, so that was why I was worried about the seemingly small differential in the GPA.
In any case, there's not a lot you can do about it now. I think it is important to show that you can do well in quant courses, of course, but it is also important that you show an intellectual curiosity. Admissions folks like to see you challenging yourself in your major, but also taking advantage of being at a big university with lots of courses. If you read the recent Poets & Quants interview with Dee Leopold, head of admissions at HBS, you will see that she is talking about the liberal arts and about the critical thinking required to read history. They do want you to be interested in lots of different things.

But you cannot change much now; I do suggest you read widely about a whole range of subjects. You'd be surprised how much that activity will help you in creative problem solving.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/26/14

Thanks again, Betsy. I appreciate the advice. Also, would you recommend any specific other ECs to get involved with to strengthen my resume? I would be especially interested in anything that could help me show that intellectual curiosity.

6/27/14

Hi Racecars,
I actually cannot recommend specific extra-curricular activities. I think it is something that you really need to figure out for yourself, that is, what else would you like to do with the time you are not at work or racing cars?
As for the intellectual curiosity point, you either are curious or not. If you are, it almost doesn't matter what you choose to explore, because there's always a lesson somewhere.
It's not about checking the box. It's about opening up your mind and your horizons. They want to put together a class of people who are eager to learn, eager to explore ideas, and are just very interesting. I am guessing you are more interesting than you allow yourself to believe, so follow some of your passions and see where they take you.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/1/14

Thank you for this. This is for a friend, his profile is below:
Stats:
Undergrad: BS in Finance from Kansas State
UG GPA: 3.0
Graduate: Master in Finance from a top-10 program
Grad GPA: 3.3
GMAT: 700 (will retake if needed)
Work Experience: 2 1/2 years as an investment banking analyst for a middle market investment bank (Lincoln, Needham, Harris Williams, Baird) in the midwest
Other stats: 2 year volunteer at local church, in charge of youth programs. Member of an under-represented minority.
Target schools: Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, USC, Texas-Austin, Emory, NYU, Cornell
Thanks!

6/12/14

Betsy,

Below are my stats and experiences:

1. 3.7 gpa (got an honors degree if that makes a difference) at a non target business school & Magna Cumme Laude
2. Mid tier MM IB analyst outside of NYC
3. Division 1 Tennis athlete. Competed and played for 18 years and counting.
4. International experience: lived in 3 different countries and educated in the British, Indian and American education system.
5. 700 GMAT - 63 percentile in quant, 90 percentile in verbal, 6.0 in AWA. I had to take it to get into a MSF program. Had 2 weeks of prep and focused on getting my score up as fast as possible. I got into a tier 1 school but then got my MM offer so went with that instead.

I know I need to start some ECs as I begin working to strengthen my resume and possibly retake the GMAT. I want to go to a top 7 school in 4 years or so. Would you have any advice for me and give me a preliminary indication of my chances.

Thank you,
VB

6/13/14

Hi Value Banker
I think it's good that you are thinking now about business school, as the planning is part of the fun. Yes, fun. It's a journey to a new, or enhanced career, and you are starting now. Giving a lot of thought to how you are approaching this process can certainly pay off, and it's good to see that you are doing so.

So right now, if you have only a few months' experience working for an investment bank, then you have a lot of ways to show your leadership and have an impact on your work and on your community. By impacting your work, you are not only looking for ways to really make a difference in your team and on the bottom line of your department (and of course for the firm's clients) but ways that you can stand out from the average associate. That is not a selfish process, but a process of looking for ways you, as one person, can influence others.

Tactically, go ahead and take the GMAT again. That is a given. 63 percentile can be improved, especially if you have an undergraduate business degree and are working in investment banking, and were admitted to an MSF program

Keep playing tennis. Sounds wonderful,especially this time of year. Why not get involved in teaching tennis to the community, use your own talent and interest to help others learn about themselves? I know you said you wanted to beef up your EC's and guess what! Athletes kind of have it easy in this regard, as they already know what it is like to be a member of a team and mentor the up and coming students.

You have your work cut out for you, but sounds like fun. Take on any international projects you can. Businesses, and by extension, schools, are looking for a global mindset. If you have already done the US and India, see if you can learn about another continent (Australia kind of doesn't count in this case).

How's this for starters?

Betsy

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/14/14

Betsy,

Thank you for your response and pointed direction. I will definitely work on the areas you mentioned. Given that I'll be an IB analyst and if I were to follow the common path (not saying I will) of 2 years IB + 2 years PE --> M7 MBA. What are some ways I can distinguish myself? I know a fair number of people with strong ECs, good leadership and top performers and teammates at work with strong brand names on their resume along with strong GPAs and gmat scores and they tell me that business schools are looking unfavorably or a little more unfavorably over these 2+2 candidates since they all seem all too similar.

Would you advise waiting a year after PE and getting some unique work experience? Further international experience? Or a deviation from the 2+2 path?

Also, should I reappear for the GMAT now or later as I get a better idea of my timeline towards business school? Thank you,

VB

6/18/14

Hi Value Banker
Thanks for keeping the conversation going. Let me be honest here. It's really hard for me to list ways a person can distinguish themselves, because such a list, by definition would be formulaic. You want to distinguish yourself by being creative in your solutions to problems at work and in your life, and exactly how you do that, I honestly don't know -- nobody does except you. Remember, business schools are looking for people with character. That's hard to define in words, but integrity, courage, tenacity, imagination, and someone who people follow without having to be told. But it is different for everyone, and that's why there's no magic potion.

as for your tactical questions -- I like international experience, but you don't want to push out your pre-MBA experience so that you are not longer a "work in progress" according to the school and potential recruiters

Don't wait on the GMAT. So many people tell me that they wished they had taken more time with it -- either started studying earlier or taken longer to absorb the information. So no reason to put it off if you have the time to deal with it

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/20/14

Thanks for your response Betsy. I'll take into account your feedback and follow it.

Accepted.com
6/19/14

Question about B-School admission:

So one of the core tenants of applying for an MBA is generally some form of "why an MBA? why now? how will this degree get you where you need to be"
This is a 100% understandable question, because obviously schools want candidates who are seeking MBAs for the right reason.

However, I've also seen a lot of people that say something to the effect of "you need to show MBA programs that while you are enthusiastic towards the program, you do not need the MBA to degree to succeed or get to where you want to be"

Strictly speaking, I know that these aren't logical contradictions, but they do from a thematic perspective seem to clash. Any thoughts? Hopefully I am getting my thoughts across

Wu noAi re

6/20/14

Hi Matayo,
I am not quite sure what is behind the second concept, that is, to demonstrate you don't need the MBA. I'm not sure that's what you mean, but it's just a rhetorical exercise, I hope.

The 3 traditional questions, not just of an essay, but of an entire application, which includes the interview are
1. Why MBA
2. Why you
3. Why now

I've probably got them in the wrong order, but those are the basic issues the admissions committee wants to know. Those questions are the starting point for their evaluation. If the answers to those questions make sense, admissions folk will be looking for more details about your character. I think people of strong character might be successful whether or not they go and get an MBA, so that could be what you are hearing around the blogosphere.

I think you mean they are looking for people who are so talented and purposeful that they don't need graduate school to make them excellent. They are already excellent, and business school helps them accelerate their career.
Also, they are excellent, but human. That means they are not perfect, and have areas that they hope to develop in the classroom.

It's never black and white. You have to be able to articulate the answers to those 3 questions above before you start going around differentiating yourself. But I don't mean in terms of a timeline. I mean in terms of the way the reader perceives your application. They are asking, "does this person know why they are making this chance in their life right now?" If you do, then that's taken care of. The rest is them trying to figure out if you are cool enough to add to a highly competitive class.

Am I on the right track?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/26/14

Somewhat

I've heard a lot of the times- not only at MBA interviews or whatever- but for jobs, other graduate schools... that they don't want the candidate that NEEDS to get in, but would rather let in the candidate that WANTS to get in.

For example, investment banks often ask the question "what will you do if you don't get this job", or, "what will you do if not investment banking?" The 'correct' answer to this is to say that you are still going to seek to do something comparable, and that you don't think not landing a job at firm x/y/z is going to hinder your chances in getting to where you want to be.

In the case of business schools, I've heard, anecdotally, that people are sometimes asked to talk about how they would proceed if they don't/fail to get an MBA, and the correct way to 'answer' this is to say that you are still going to continue down the same path. I hear they ask this because they want people who are truly committed to what they are doing, rather than just chasing the name.

Am I making myself more clear?
(also, could you hit the reply button when responding? thanks so much!!!)

Wu noAi re

6/27/14

sorry if I didn't hit the reply button before. I usually do! My mistake.

I agree that no one wants to admit (or hire) someone who is desperate for a seat in class (job at a particular firm). That's human nature, and that's why I encourage people not to beg. You'd be surprised how many people spend time on their applications and job interviews talking about how much they want to get in or get that job. Most people know you want it, so why waste your words by giving away your power?

The important thing ALWAYS is to demonstrate what you bring to the party. With humility. Why would I hire you? Not because you want the job, but because you make MY job easier. Why would I admit you? Not because you need it, but because your classmates and the school will benefit from your contribution.

So I'm going beyond the need vs. want question. It's more about answering the question: why would someone want to pay $160,000 to sit next to you in a business school class?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/20/14

Hi Betsy,

As you know, schools ask about short-term and long-term goals and how their program will get you there. I am asking for my application to the MIT MFin program but I'm sure there is some overlap. How can I address this topic without knowing what I want to do, or do I have to pick something, convince myself I want to do that, and then genuinely sell it to admissions?

6/24/14

so sorry, I just saw this posting!
Here's how I look at the goals question: in the case of the MBA, it is an exercise in critical thinking. That is, can you make a case for an imagined future based on your past, using the MBA as a pivot point? It could mean a career change, but if so, it has to tie into your past interests.
For example, if you want to work in international finance at an organization like the world bank, you have to show that you have either studied international economics or worked in some capacity with overseas organizations.
But for you, it looks like you need to imagine first why you want your degree. Otherwise, why pay the money?
If you want to work in investment management and run your own firm, well, say that. But be sure to connect the dots from your future back to your past.
Chances are, at least with the MBA, you will change your mind. That's ok because that's the nature of the program and it is normal to switch around during your 2 years. As for the MFin, not sure that you really have that many different paths to choose from. You have more than one, however, so you should at least project yourself into the future and pick a place you want to be and then talk about it in your application, and justify why it is the right path for you without just saying, "I want it"
Make sense?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/24/14

@"jakevm" thanks for the question on how I got into admissions consulting.
I'd been doing it as a favor to friends forever -- people might have been so amazed that I got into business school that they thought I had some secret :-) . But it's a way of just connecting with interesting and ambitious young leaders too. When I lived in Hong Kong I really enjoyed helping my younger colleagues understand the process and helped them tell their stories. It was fun.
Later in life I found out I could make some money doing it. It was during the 2008 financial crisis, and I'd been in the industry for long enough. I was feeling like I didn't want a boss anymore, and so when I got made redundant, I took the severance and went on a "listening tour" to see if I could make a business of MBA consulting. It's been tremendously fun, and I've met so many wonderful students. Some have really rocked my world.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/20/14

Thanks for the response. Life's full of twists and turns, and yours seems like an exciting ride!

6/21/14

Hi Betsy, thanks for having this thread here and for being part of WSO.

I'm looking to do a top European MBA, either at LBS, INSEAD or HEC Paris ... My profile below:

Age: 26
BSc Economics in the UK, GPA ~3.0, not great
MSc Finance in the UK, GPA 4.0, top 5% of class
Currently PE analyst in South Africa, will have been here 2.5 years when matriculating. Only analyst, so a LOT of responsibility... I am almost seen as a partner, and lead the entire investment process on my own (manage interns, many HBS and Stanford MBAs)
Previously worked in shorter stints in NYC and Belgium and backpacked Australia and Asia
Fluent in Swedish, Greek, French and English, Conversational in Spanish and Dutch
Plenty of ECs in undergrad, a couple in post-grad, and currently I help out at a shelter for abused dogs
GMAT: taking it in 2 months, aiming for 700+
I also have triple citizenship - Swedish, Greek and Spanish

Thanks for your help!

Don't waste your life only thinking about money and prestige

6/24/14

OK, here you go.
Let me ask, is this your signature? "It's not work if you love it?" That's a great philosophy, and goes a long way. In life for sure.
So you said you want to do a top European MBA, including LBS or INSEAD -- I have to say that the 2 are very different because of the one-year vs. two year program. Unless you go January entry, INSEAD is going to weigh your candidacy against your goals and potential for hiring without an internship. That analysis is hugely different.
You've also given numbers that are a bit dodgy, in that not all schools in the UK are considered equal.
Again, nothing but honest.
So if you want me to say that you have a great chance, I can, but in reality, what am I adding to the conversation?
I think it's notable that you have an MSc in Finance, and so the admissions people will ask, especially if you are going to stay in your industry, "What's the added value?" They are looking hard at people who just want to add the check-box on their resume. You can always say, "oh, I want the leadership skills" but it looks like from the way you describe yourself, you are already leading the firm, being seen as a partner and all.

Having said all that, your fluency and citizenship literally all over the map is pretty much a lock for INSEAD -- that's exactly what they are looking for in terms of international profile.

That's it for starters. Feel free to push back -- it's that kind of day.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/21/14

Hi Betsy,

I read in another forum you had a DC/political background before HBS. How did you use that to break into banking with Goldman? Did you have any finance/banking experience pre-MBA?

6/24/14

Hi Investorina,
I didn't have any finance or banking prior to getting my MBA. During the summer I worked at Chase (before it merged with JPMorgan to get a financial institution on my resume. For those who know their history, this was before Glass-Steagall was repealed, and Chase was only a commercial bank.

I couldn't get a summer job in investment banking, although I tried. Not everyone who wanted a job in investment banking got summer jobs -- my BF at the time had been an engineer, and so ended up in consulting, but he really wanted investment banking. (Eventually he became a partner at a major PE firm)

I also took a lot of finance courses my second year and got involved with some clubs, including an event where I invited public finance representatives to the school to present to us. I made myself known to them, and, well, there you have it.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/23/14

Hey Betsy

Was wondering if you could give me career advice and MBA advice since my path is a bit similar to the one you took.

Quick Background: I recently accepted a full-time offer with Goldman Sachs PSI group out of undergrad (starting in roughly 2 weeks). I've lived my entire life in NY, and moving to California for this opportunity. Went to an undergraduate "non-target" state school in Upstate New York (U. Albany).

GPA: 3.6/4.0
Senior Thesis: Liquidity and Cost of Capital: Evidence from the Healthcare PIPE Market
EC's: President of the student-run investment group on campus, multiple finance internships (pharm. marketing and equity research), various international competitions (Duff & phelps YOUniversity, NYSSA CFA Research Challenge, PwC xTAX, and the All America Student Analyst Competition which I ranked #64/2100 in portfolio management). Intramurals, and other sports-related events
GMATs: N/A

Post MBA goals: Go buyside (primarily in infrastrucure PE) or non-profit healthcare start up (healthcare and infrastructure projects really appeal to me.. Pretty much all things related and influenced by government policies fascinate me).

Main questions: 1) What were you exit opportunities like after your stint at Goldman PSI? I know you brought it up briefly in the other thread that you sold taiwanese derivatives to HFs, but were there any other opportunities presented to you? Would love to know where I could potentially go. 2) Assuming I do well on my GMATs (aiming for 700+), which schools would be my "target" goals?

Thank you so much for doing this. I am sure all of us really appreciate you taking time out of your day to answer aspiring MBA-candidates questions. Thanks again.

6/25/14

OK, a few things that I want to mention: I didn't work at Goldman before business school. I worked there after graduating. Before business school I worked in Washington DC.
After Goldman municipal finance, I went to work in institutional muni sales at a big New York bank that was acquired later by Deutsche Bank. I was introduced to this job via a business school classmate A decade later I was selling Taiwanese equities, but the path was about as non-linear, including working for Institutional Investor publications, and writing articles for the Vietnam Investment Review.
I have very little knowledge of infrastructure finance, so I don't think I can opine on any of that.

As for your target schools, I think they are all targets. I'm not being snarky, I just think that the discovery process is so fun and helps you figure out what you want and what will fit for you. There's so much information out there about schools, and so many alums and current students willing to tell you about their experiences. Go to events, call your friends, use your GS contacts, and ask questions. I don't know what is the great fascination with the buyside, but if that's your passion, talk to portfolio managers and ask them about their path. You will find that some folks will argue against the MBA, and at the price, it's worth thinking twice. Then there's the CFA, which many here at WSO might argue is enough to get you set up.

If you are really interested in policy and government related stuff, you will probably change your mind after a few years working in investment banking.... but then, who knows? Just keep asking questions and figuring out what program will help you get the most options for you in the future. That's what I wanted, a life with lots of choices. And that's how I got to Asia. YOLO

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/24/14

Betsy, you forgot to reply to me, I feel left out :'(

Don't waste your life only thinking about money and prestige

6/24/14

No, no a thousand times no! I didn't mean to leave you out. It was late last night and I only could reply to the easy stuff, you know, where I talk about myself. (hey, I am nothing if not honest!)

BUT, if you insist, you're up as soon as I get my 2nd cup of coffee. Also, I will reply to your original posting so we can all keep it straight.

And also, like your photo. Reminds me that I need to replace the sad little flowers sitting in front of me right now.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/25/14

Hey Betsy--hoping you could still answer my questions (about 4/5 posts above this one). Would really appreciate it. Thanks so much for your time!

6/25/14

Believe it or not, I answered it before seeing your request! Hope it makes sense to you

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/25/14

Hi Betsy,

I'm hoping to get your advice on how to improve my profile. Here's my quick stats:
-3.4 cumulative GPA from a public state school in FL. Accounting Major GPA 3.97 (I failed out of school at 19 and recovered)
-Passed the CPA exam on my first attempt
-Technically have a MAcc degree with a 3.5 GPA (150 hour requirement for CPA in FL)
-Currently working in Big4 transaction services financial due diligence for two years
-Extensive EC's in college (president of habitat for humanity and student government leadership positions among others)
-Current EC's are junior achievement and contributing to teachersask.com and general volunteering with Habitat
-760 GMAT

My wife is entering occupational therapy school, so I'm looking to apply for entrance in fall 2017 (her program is 2.5 years). I'll have 5 years of work experience with a promotion at that time. My goal is H/S, MIT, or Haas for the technology focus. I want to spin my MBA into a corp/business development role in a large tech.

How can I improve my app? Am I actually competitive with my target schools?

THANK YOU!

6/26/14

Hi Auditor.John Wow, your are a forward thinker. 2017 feels like it is eons away. Are you thinking of the class of 2019? Such far away dates scare me -- make me feel like it's all moving so fast!
But, you are actually smart to think ahead. I do think your recovery story is interesting, shows real grit, determination, and it looks like you have made the most with what you had, especially since you got back into your groove.
Personally, I like the transactions services department of these accounting firms. It's quite fast-paced and there's lots of opportunity for you to step up and show leadership. I say this because you will probably find some of your next 2 years will be dealing with crisis management. Or deals that are highly visible and you need to show quite a bit of judgment in your decision-making. So, to use a horrible cliche, grab the bull by both horns and do everything you can to participate in this experience.
As for your desire to go into corp tech roles, I guess the best training for that , given that you are working for a service firm, is project management.
Also, try to get as much international exposure as you can. Either on Cross Border deals or working with cross-border teams. Any chance that your Florida location means you will be able to deal with Latin American companies? Schools, and many companies these days, are looking for a global mindset. If you can position yourself to be on international projects and teams, all the better for you.

Make sense?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/26/14

Thanks for the response! Work performance has generally come pretty easily for me, so I'm confident in my ability to continue to perform in the TS side of the business. Even in audit, I've had some great exposure to transactions due to being staffed on a large public filer, including some international exposure with an acquisition of a Brazilian entity. I'll actually be moving to NYC for the TS job, so hopefully I'll get some more exposure there as well.

I'm honestly more concerned about my activities outside the office. Are my EC's in line with adcom expectations/desires? I know that my GPA will be a downside to my app, so I'm hoping to make everything else solid gold.

Thanks for doing what you do here. You're awesome.

7/2/14

Short answer about your extra-curriculars, YES, sure. The real thing about extra-curriculars is now how many you have, or even how impressive they are, but whether you are doing something outside of work that is beyond dreaming about business school. There was an article in BusinessInsider the other day by the dean of Harvard undergrad, saying that they get a lot of valedictorians, but the differentiating factor is "how interesting are they?" So if you are someone who is interesting enough to add to a class, then I don't think that you need to overdo it, or overthink it on the extra curriculars.
I've said this before -- it isn't only about volunteer activities, although your Habitat stuff is great, and if it is something you value, that's perfect. But it's also about sports, about even taking extra classes in something that fascinates you. Curiousity about yourself and the wide world out there goes a long way. Sometimes that's shown through extra-curriculars, and sometimes through just the way you move through the world. That' why I don't want anyone to feel like they MUST absolutely have perfect EC's

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

7/6/14

Thanks for the response Betsy. That was exactly the kind of knowledge I was looking for.

6/25/14

Betsy,

My question today is really on the WE part of my application. After two years of big 4 audit and two years of big 4 valuation going straight to b-school is obviously an option; however, the wrestle I am currently having is would moving to another position (say BB IB or MM PE) for two more years (6 years of work experience total) of great work experience help or detract from my b-school application (let's say M7)? I realize it may depend somewhat but would be appreciative/interested in anyone's thoughts and/or anecdotal experience. I also realize the avg. MBA work experience is 3-5 so the question is would going on the long end of the work experience spectrum be potentially offset by the incremental two years of great work experience?

Also, would moving into IB/PE pre-MBA put in in a different "bucket" of applicants (a more competitive bucket) compared to if i stay in TS/TAS at a big 4 firm?

Thanks in advance.

7/2/14

Hi Frenemy,
I am not sure if you are put in a different bucket, or if it really matters. I think the most important question is: are you ready to go to business school now? Help me through it -- are you trying to jockey to get into a better business school than what you think you could get into now? Any reason you couldn't apply now and then apply in 2 years if it doesn't work out?
I am not really following the true logic. I can follow the WSO logic, but that's not what interests me. I want to know what you are really trying to achieve.

Some of it depends on how well you have done thus far -- are you the guy whom your teammates look to for direction? Are you the one coming up with a new angle on solving a problem? Do clients want you to work on their projects? Your character and leadership style is much more important than an industry choice between investment banking or valuation.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/26/14

Hey Betsy,

Thanks for taking time to answer all of our questions.

I have a question regarding leadership experience. I understand what leadership experience generally entails. However I have a question regarding something a little more unconventional. I have head coached a middle school football team for the past 3 years and was wondering if leadership in that sense is something to promote when applying for B-School. Or is it inconsequential and should be omitted from an application?

Thanks in advance.

6/27/14

Hi Jeff It sounds like it could be a great story. I am sure you have had to negotiate, arbitrate,rally the troops, strategize, deal with outside influences (parents -- argh!), act creatively, bring people together, and more. Why wouldn't you include it? Particularly if you've used what you learned from being a coach in your work life and in the rest of your world?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

6/27/14

Betsy Massar:

Hi Jeff It sounds like it could be a great story. I am sure you have had to negotiate, arbitrate,rally the troops, strategize, deal with outside influences (parents -- argh!), act creatively, bring people together, and more. Why wouldn't you include it? Particularly if you've used what you learned from being a coach in your work life and in the rest of your world?

Awesome, thanks for the insight Betsy

7/2/14

Hi Betsy, I wanted to get your initial thoughts on my chances and any advice regarding areas on focus in my application essays and recommendations. I'm really only interested in 3 schools, HBS, Wharton & Columbia. Post MBA, I plan to either move into Equity Research covering the Pharma market or Corp Dev in Pharma industry. Or should i make up something that sounds more sexy;)?

Stats:

Undergrad @ a top 50 public school (think Penn State, Rutgers, U of I ect). 3.95 GPA, triple major in Finance, Accounting, Marketing.

GMAT 750 (can't recall breakdown but i think it was ~ 95% percentile in Math & ~ 91% in English)

Credentials:
CPA-
CFA- Cleared levels 1 & 2, yet to attempt level 3.

Work Experience :
Big 4 Audit (1.5 years) Associate/Senior Associate. Top Rated (1 on a 1-4 scale), 1 of 175 associates in my offices starting class to receive an early promotion to Senior Associate in 2 years instead of 3. I've only know 2 other people in my office who did this and some years they don't have a single early promote. Significant supervisory experience early on (leading 4+ Associates with less than 2 years exp. myself). Most experience was in the Pharma Industry

Big 4 Transaction Services- M&A Financial Due Diligence (same firm, 1.5 years) Senior Associate. Top rated (1 again), Difficult group to transfer to, good experience, financial modeling, some sell side demand forecasting/modeling experience which is somewhat rare in TS, good mix of PE and Corporate deals. Mostly Pharma deals, lots of exposure to acquisition target CEO's/CFO's and client Strategy/CD/PE deal teams.

F100 Pharma, Demand/Revenue Forecasting & Financial Decision Support. (1.5 years) Manager. Landed a great gig at the Manager level with only 3 years total exp. High exposure to Execs,financial forecasting & analytics for all business decision making and strategy within brand group. Business Development support (core forecast modeling for all BD opportunities within Theraputic area). Most prestiguous finance group at company. Led a few junior consultants on forecast projects. Job is zero accounting, so successfully broke away from accounting roots.

F100 Pharma (same), Strategic Analytics, US Strategic Planning & Analysis group. (will have 6 months exp at time of MBA application, 1 year at matriculation) Senior Manager. Got really lucky with this one, promotion to Senior Manager with only 4.5 years of total exp (typically takes 8-9 years to reach this level). Extraordinary exposure to every exec in the US organization, have a hand in the strategic direction/decisions made for the entire $13bil US Business, as well as significant cross functional work with the Global Corp Strategy group. Perfect supplement to previous experience. Close work with BD to identify high yield target markets for deals.

Military- Unites States Marine Corps (11.5 years reserve & Active duty) Gunnery Sergeant (E-7). Rapid promotion record, (top 5%, made E-6 in less than 6 years, 10 years is standard). ~ 4 years of active duty time, 8 reserve (half while working full time). 3 Tours to Iraq and Afghanistan, 2 Humanitarian aid tours to Honduras and Peru. Most recently, supervised over 220 marines for 3 years as a Company Gunnery Sergeant (extremely challenging role and I held it as a Staff Sergeant, greatest challenge of my life). Another example of experience was as a Mission Commander in charge of 20 man team over a 3 month forward arming mission, complete isolation from all command elements. Tons of leadership, essentially 12 years of non-stop leadership experience managing anywhere from 4 to 40 to 220 people at different points in career. While in reserve side, did the 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks per summer schedule which was very difficult when working 70-80 hours a week in civilian world. IMO this experience trumps all others combined. Taught me everything I know about leadership and I'm 100% confident that for the rest of my career I will excel in supervision of others as well as upward leadership and seamless communication. I think i'm going to struggle presenting this experience concise and tightly bundled. I could answer all essay question well speaking only of this experience, but I'm concerned that I have too much content to speak of and may come off disorganized.

Age 32- Understood this may be an issue, but to be fair, I joined the military a week after 9/11 and had 4 years of active duty time for overseas deployments which pushed back my college graduation. I also had to do a 5 year undergrad program to get the CPA which also pushed back my age. Didn't start professional career till age 27.

Any thought on chances? I think my job experience alone is strong enough to place me as a possible for my target schools, and military exp (specifically the leadership aspect) provides a nice supplement. Just not sure how this package looks when put together, as things have just worked out this way and I struggle to view myself without being overly critical about my non M/B/B or IB/PE experience. Of equal concern is my specific application strategy, I'm having a really difficult time narrowing down to 2 or 3 recommendations since I could feasibly have a great one for each of my 4 professional positions, as well as 2 or 3 from military supervisors. That said, since i'm a senior manager now, I feel foolish getting a recommendation from my old boss in audit who was a senior manager when i was a 1st year associate and is still a senior manager today (how do the top schools view this type of recommendation, former supervisor now at my same level?) Unfortunately, my best recommendations would come from those who I've almost caught up to career progression. Thanks in advance for any insight!

7/2/14

Hi Marine,
First, thanks for your service. As we come up on the 4th of July, I just want to let you know that you are one of those who really make me feel patriotic.

You have a number of questions -- all good ones. I'm going to answer just one or two at a time, not just to keep you coming back for more, but to absorb all the different elements. And because I am about to grab dinner, I'm going to start easy

You wrote

Age 32- Understood this may be an issue, but to be fair, I joined the military a week after 9/11 and had 4 years of active duty time for overseas deployments which pushed back my college graduation. I also had to do a 5 year undergrad program to get the CPA which also pushed back my age. Didn't start professional career till age 27.

Age for you is a non issue. In fact, it's really not much of an issue for most people who start their careers late. Don't even worry about it.

You wrote

Tons of leadership, essentially 12 years of non-stop leadership experience managing anywhere from 4 to 40 to 220 people at different points in career.
This is always good, and it is expected for military guys

then you wrote

While in reserve side, did the 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks per summer schedule which was very difficult when working 70-80 hours a week in civilian world. IMO this experience trumps all others combined.

now this is interesting, not because you were stressed time wise, but because your brain must have exploded with the difference in style between your civilian job and your reserve job. I think it's not just a matter of commitment but a matter of being really flexible and open to creative solutions to what, in many cases, look like unsolveable problems.
Indeed, you can write about that, and it's part of your story, so why wouldn't you?

Betsy's philosophy on essays: You probably don't want to write about just one thing in an essay anyway.
Reason? Schools are looking for how your past influences your present which will influence your future. If you talk about the reserve experience as a microcosm, you probably acted in ways based on your prior challenges -- both successes and failures. And ideally, if you came out of the reserve experience a better leader for it, you probably brought that into your work life. Learning is kind of porous. I wouldn't worry about looking disorganized at this stage. If you can connect the dots, then you have a solid narrative.

How is that so far?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

7/3/14

Hi Marine, I am back. I hope you are not on the computer, but are out celebrating the long weekend.
I'm going to comment on a few more of your points:

Another plus for you is the fact that you actually work at a company. I cannot tell you how important it is to have people in the classroom who have actually worked inside organizations than just as consultants, bankers, or vultures (PE guys :-). You are familiar with more than strategy, planning and the financial functions when working for a F100 company. Organization, processes, fiefdoms, vendors, R&D, sales, marketing. This familiarity can add a lot to the discussion.

Having said that, you also have worked on transaction services, which really gets into the nitty gritty of dealmaking, so that's not only fun, it's another organizational bonanza. Those experiences, coupled with your military experience and active deployment make you formidable.

But do you really want to be a buy side analyst? I am not asking for business school reasons -- I am sure if you really want that, you can convince the admissions committee, but to me it sounds like a yawn. And I worked on the buy side (ok, not as a PM, but still) for quite a few years. Where does it take you?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

7/6/15

Hi Betsy, thanks for all the responses, haven't been on WSO in ages. I ended up waiting on the MBA a bit, things transpired at work and opportunities I just couldn't pass on. My company's strategy group was reorganized shortly after I joined, and all the US roles were relocated to the global headquarters in Europe. But I pulled off a miracle move and got into Corp Development, and am just about to get promoted to Director, now with 5.5 years experience. I must be the luckiest person in the world, to have made director this fast, I thought it was more or less impossible to get promoted this quickly.

Maybe most importantly, I've really done some soul searching and concluded much of what you eluded to. Equity Research, well it's just not dynamic enough and feels very bla...I'm leaning towards either M/B/B consulting or a strategic role with perhaps a startup after MBA. If I go the consulting route, I really want to help start a company, and I've connected with others in various areas who are IMO the best of the best, and we all want to start a company together. The M&A experience I've accumulated has been interesting, but I find myself drawn to pure functional strategy, not really the type consulting firms perform, more so taking a vision and turning it into something tangible. I've always been thought of as a numbers guy, but I think my real strength is influencing others, hopefully in a positive direction...

Anyway, I'm starting to work on applications for next fall, when the time comes I'll likely contact you for more official assistance, as I really want to get this one right.

Thanks!!!

7/11/14

Hey WSO friends in San Francisco, I am hosting an MBA Admissions workshop next Tuesday, July 15 in downtown SF. It is sponsored by the Harvard Club of SF, but I promise, you do not have to be a Hprivarvard grad to attend. It is open to all pre-MBAs, all you have to do is register at the Harvard Club website.
Here is the link: http://www.harvardclubsf.org/article.html?aid=735

Seriously, if you are in the area, it is at 101 Post Street from 6:30 onwards. Come and say hello! It's a fun group and the entire goal is to give you information so the application process is LESS stressful, not more.

Very excited to be doing this event for the 6th year in a row. Either it's correlation or causation, but students who attend this workshop tend to be successful in their application quest.

Email me or PM me if you have questions.
It's Tuesday, July 15, in downtown San Francisco -- check out the link above for more info.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

7/12/14

Thank you for this. This is for a friend, his profile is below:

Stats:
Undergrad: BS in Finance from Kansas State
UG GPA: 3.0
Graduate: Master in Finance from a top-10 program
Grad GPA: 3.3
GMAT: 700 (will retake if needed)
Work Experience: 2 1/2 years as an investment banking analyst for a middle market investment bank (Lincoln, Needham, Harris Williams, Baird) in the midwest
Other stats: 2 year volunteer at local church, in charge of youth programs. Member of an under-represented minority.
Target schools: Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, USC, Texas-Austin, Emory, NYU, Cornell
Thanks!

8/15/14

Hi @"therealweinstein"
sorry if it's been a very long time since I responded to this -- I was off WSO for a while (working!) but trying to catch up now.
I would have to say that most of the schools on that list, except maybe Emory, are somewhat of a stretch.
I'm not seeing anything really that amazes or interests me about the candidate. The master in finance is a start, but the rest of it is pretty generic. I could be convinced otherwise if you tell me something that would pique the interest of an admissions officer, but unfortunately, this looks like a pretty ho-hum candidate.
Convince me!

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

7/17/14

Hi Betsy,

Thanks for this tread, its invaluable.

I am right now completing my 2 year MA finance (will graduate in May 2015) at Brandeis university, a small B-School, 10 miles from Boston. I chose this school basically for generous scholarship and location. I am an international student from India and have engineering undergrad degree with 2 years manufacturing exp. I came to Brandeis with aim of breaking into IB, even if it took one more graduate degree. During this summer fortunately I landed a summer internship (Trading and Operations position) in Boston with an Investment Adviser with ~50 million AUM. (These guys want me to continue for whole next year). But I may ditch them for other suitable job. I am seriously planning my moves for this year and next 2-3 years. During this one year I have developed interest in PE and place my career target in PE as equally as that of IB in short term. And would prefer PE slightly over IB in the longer term.

After being 1 year in b-school and job hunting I have realized that its next to impossible to break into BB IB with this degree alone. That said TOP B-School MBA is a must for me. But the question is WHEN?

- 1 year after this degree OR
- after 2-3 years gap after this degree OR
- right after this degree.

I know other factors in life will also affect this decision but I want your opinion career wise. Which one of this will land me a BB IB job (or equivalent in pay in PE) as soon as possible and with maximum probability. Also schools I am targeting are Harvard/Wharton/Booth/Columbia and Stern. I feel Stern is pretty in placing student in BB IB and lower in ranking and hence might prove low hanging fruit. What do you think?

AND

What kind of job should I pursue during these year, before my TOP B-School MBA? How to get that would altogether different question, I just want to know what would be golden path for me now onward. Do you think I can also reach where I want without an additional MBA? (I am little pessimist regarding this)

8/15/14

Hi Wolverine,
I am not sure I'm actually the best person at WSO to help you position yourself for a PE job or even an investment banking job at a glam firm -- there are a lot of helpful and talented and more experienced monkeys here in that area.
Having said that, I do want to point you to a new resource -- maybe someone else has read this, but I saw it in my "Alumni News Feed" :
Making Private Equity Public Knowledge - Alumni - Harvard Business School
https://www.alumni.hbs.edu/stories/Pages/story-bul...

Apparently a student, Daniel Sheyner, from the HBS class of '14 wrote a book on getting into the industry
The HBS alumni news writes, "His exhaustive guide to breaking into the industry, "Private Equity Industry & Interview Guide"--offering everything from sample leveraged buyout modeling tests to typical recruiter questions--was released this summer."

Since I haven't read it yet, I don't know if he says that the MBA from a top school is the only way to go.
Assuming he does say that, then I would have to say that you probably want to work for another few years -- and if you like where you are, why not just stay there to learn everything you can about your current industry and client relationships, at least while you look for something else.

As for Stern, don't assume it's low-hanging fruit, at least to get in. What makes you think that?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

7/23/14

Hi Betsy,

Sorry for the generic question, but I just wanted to generally see what your thoughts were about someone works in merchandising (at a top consumer retail company). I'm assuming this is not your typical route for some of the top B-schools, so I was wondering if there are things I could do while working at my company that can distinguish me from other candidates?

Thanks!

8/17/14

Question back to you -- why would merchandising put you at a disadvantage? Why wouldn't that be interesting to your classmates? Maybe I don't understand exactly what you do, but business schools look for people with all sorts of backgrounds, and that's what adds to the class. Why wouldn't someone who is at Wharton, who is taking classes and seminars through the Baker Retailing Center, http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/bakerretail/
want to talk to you?
Why wouldn't someone who is wants to work at Amazon, among the top recruiters of MBA students
learn from your experience?
http://poetsandquants.com/2013/06/10/google-mckins...

In some schools, Amazon might even be the #1 employer!

so ... why is your background not a great addition?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

8/17/14

Thanks for your answer Betsy! I agree with what you said, it's just that you start to get sucked into the conventional thinking when everyone seems to be from a finance/consulting background at B-School...

To your knowledge, which schools have the best retail programs/focus or put another way, for someone with a merchandising background, which schools should I be taking a hard look at?

8/18/14

It really depends on what you mean -- are you looking for a school that will "get" your background, or are you looking to capitalize on it and go in a slightly different direction.
And it depends on what you mean by retail, too. If you mean traditional retail, then Wharton, because of the aforementioned Baker Retailing Center. If you mean luxury retail, then NYU Stern, or one of the European schools, if you mean big data retail, then Chicago, if you mean general management, then everywhere.... so it's really something you want to look at and focus on as you do your research. You will probably find some surprises when you dig deeper. Pick some companies and check out LinkedIn and see who has an MBA and from where.
I think this kind of exploration is the best part of the process!

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

8/4/14

Hi,

Profile: Mixed race male
Age: 25
UG School: BBA business degree from top state school (think UT, UMich, UVa)
Major: Finance (concentration in chemistry [used to be pre-med])
GPA: 3.7

GMAT: Haven't taken yet, but expecting 700+

Current experience:
1. Worked for 1 year at an energy long/short hedge fund in a large multi-strategy fund (however, recently left the fund).
2. Worked for 1.5 years in energy investment bank boutique well regarded in the space (closed a few M&A transactions).
3. Internship at NY BB Investment banking group in junior year summer

EC:
*Honestly, not that much since I've been working
1. Mediation programs and Buddhist seminars/ programs (doing this since prior to high school)
2. Boxing classes as a hobby
*In College
1. Alum of SEO program (well-regarded program for minority students breaking into financial and leadership roles)
2. Member of service fraternity (held some leadership roles, organized certain events for charity including donating food for world hunger orgs, kids in poverty in America, etc)
3. Teacher for a summer at summer school (non-certified, honestly this was more of an over glorified camp)

Target Schools: M7 and UT, UVa
Plans for post-grad: On the fence between asset manager or corporate development role

Background to my questions: I plan on applying for an MBA program that begins the fall of 2015 and want to have as strong of a profile as I can. I recently left my last fund and I am pursuing a few options for the next year (until fall of 2015): (1) Corporate development at a F500 -- most likely an energy company or back into I Banking -- most likely at an experienced analyst level (3) Another investment fund (most likely energy) at an analyst level (4) Tech sales -- this is a career option I've recently learned about and it seems to be very interesting and dynamic. If I did pursue this, I might decide to forgo a MBA completely and continue with it if I really enjoy it. I think this would appear pretty random to an adcom though, if I did it for a year, didn't like it, and I wanted to pursue my MBA after. (5) Start up -- a company I created with another co-founder, we've been working on it for a few months now. Basically, we create medicinal e-cig liquids (currently patent pending), and there exists the potential for high growth....however it could also fail as well. Regardless of the options I choose, I will take the GMAT most likely towards the end of 2014.

My Questions: (1) Which of the options that I can pursue in the next year will make my application more attractive to M7 schools? (2) How would my story appear to the adcoms (especially if I decide to do a more 'off-the-beaten' path option like tech sales for a year or an e-cig start up)?

I've been reading through your posts for other candidates and wanted to say thank you for taking your time to do this. It is much appreciated.

8/26/14

Hi Big Cheese,
I am so sorry I didn't respond! I was just going back through to see if I missed anyone, and indeed I had. Can I use the excuse that it is summer?
Argh, and I wish this summer were easier. Thanks to the HBS and other early deadlines, it's been a bit busy. So I will try to respond honestly and helpfully

Major: Finance (concentration in chemistry [used to be pre-med])
GPA: 3.7
GMAT Haven't taken yet, but expecting 700+
a GPA like that with a lot of science courses always makes admissions folks happy. Can't say much about the GMAT since you haven't taken it, but I've said here a few thousand times that the overall GMAT isn't the point, it's the breakdown. Try to get over 70% Quant. Used to be 80%, but it seems there's too much inflation from China and other similar countries.
Re your extra-curriculars, believe it, these do not drive the application. They are there, to see what else you do. If you have been involved in the "community" no matter how you define community, then that's useful. I am not sure that meditation programs really counts for that.


1. Alum of SEO program (well-regarded program for minority students breaking into financial and leadership roles)
on its own, I guess it helps, although I don't know what this is. (should I? I know Toigo Foundation, and more generally MLT, but not this one. )


Background to my questions: I plan on applying for an MBA program that begins the fall of 2015 and want to have as strong of a profile as I can. I recently left my last fund and I am pursuing a few options for the next year (until fall of 2015): (1) Corporate development at a F500 -- most likely an energy company or back into I Banking -- most likely at an experienced analyst level (3) Another investment fund (most likely energy) at an analyst level (4) Tech sales -- this is a career option I've recently learned about and it seems to be very interesting and dynamic. If I did pursue this, I might decide to forgo a MBA completely and continue with it if I really enjoy it. I think this would appear pretty random to an adcom though, if I did it for a year, didn't like it, and I wanted to pursue my MBA after. (5) Start up -- a company I created with another co-founder, we've been working on it for a few months now. Basically, we create medicinal e-cig liquids (currently patent pending), and there exists the potential for high growth....however it could also fail as well. Regardless of the options I choose, I will take the GMAT most likely towards the end of 2014.
My Questions: (1) Which of the options that I can pursue in the next year will make my application more attractive to M7 schools?

wow, that's an awfully big question, and the answer depends. I really don't like the idea of trying to game it so the admissions people are happy. If a career path makes sense to you and you want to do it because you think it will help your career, that's a better question. It also depends at what you end up doing at each of these choices. I see them as very different and requiring different parts of the brain and personality : investment management vs. startup? vs Tech sales? I suggest you do a lot of informational interviewing and self-reflection to figure out what is the logical next step for you. If it makes sense to you internally, then all you need to do is tell the truth when you are applying to business school or sitting in front of a recruiter. That is, as long as the answer isn't "I did it to impress the admissions committee".

(2) How would my story appear to the adcoms (especially if I decide to do a more 'off-the-beaten' path option like tech sales for a year or an e-cig start up)?

It depends on why you are doing it. Schools are very concerned how you will look to recruiters, as they a)want you to succeed after graduation so you will be happy --and be able to pay back your loans and b)want recruiters to like their candidates so they will keep coming back for more. If they think you haven't thought out why you are doing what you are doing, then you probably will get a pass.
Having said that, it is relatively common for students to drop their formal jobs for startups, just to see if they can do it. I think that sounds a lot more interesting than investment management, which seems to have only limited career opportunities these days. But that's just me, having been in the business and not seeing a whole lot of upside;

I've been reading through your posts for other candidates and wanted to say thank you for taking your time to do this. It is much appreciated.
I really appreciate your comments. It's fun to know what's going on with you guys -- helps me stay alert as to trends and what emerging leaders are thinking about.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

8/12/14

Hello WSO monkeys
Nice to be back. Was preparing for a seminar, then putting together a video, and then swamped with the issues surrounding R1.

So, I would like to share with you the video-- which is the front page story on Poets & Quants.
Will figure out how to embed it into this thread as well, but below is the story and the link
It's a "How-To" video for navigating the graphical-user-interface of the quirky and tricky HBS application. When there's only one essay, the application takes on added importance:
:


With Harvard Business School's Round One deadline less than a month away, it's certainly a timely exercise to show applicants how to navigate through the school's online application.

So we enlisted the help of a prominent MBA admissions consultant and a Harvard MBA, Betsy Massar of Master Admissions, to take applicants through the process step-by-step. She examines the quirks and potential pitfalls that could sidetrack an applicant.

The more general advice?

1. Start by reading through the entire online application-without typing anything in those annoying little boxes.
2. Gather all your GMAT and employment data to fill in at the same time.
3. Don't craft substantive answers in the text boxes. Use your Word program or pen and paper to assure your answers are as good as they can be.
4. Take advantage of these opportunities to tell the truth about yourself.


http://poetsandquants.com/2014/08/12/navigating-ha...

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

8/13/14

Here's the Poets & Quants video on "How to Navigate the Harvard Business School Application" which I wrote because I find these online applications very annoying and anxiety producing! Trying to embed, so please let me know if this doesn't work

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

8/14/14

hey @"Betsy Massar", one of my roommates is in a bit of a career rut and so I'm posting for him. he won't be seeking a finance career nor will he be seeking admission to a M7 (GPA isn't strong enough) but would definitely need some help with his "story." currently, he works for the marketing arm of a large car dealership network, he's directly below what I'd consider to be the CMO. he doesn't directly manage anyone, but he leads the marketing efforts for about 10 different dealerships (no idea on the sales numbers), he manages the websites, plans events, does sales training, and is the liason between the dealerships and the art/creative/graphic design people. he definitely uses leadership skills, but he doesn't directly "manage" any one person. how could he position this so that he's attractive to adcoms?

feel free to pose any follow up questions, not sure exactly what info you might need, and thanks in advance!

"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton

"The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself." - Benjamin Graham

8/15/14

Hi brofessor =
first, I love your quote from Templeton about the danger of "this time it's different" -- when I worked at Franklin Templeton right before (and during) the 2007-8 crisis, I wish they had taken those words to heart

OK, back to your friend with the career rut -- let me say that's always a bit of a danger, because they don't want to see people who are in ruts, but more they want to see people who have learned an done everything they can do at their current job and are ready for the next challenge. That does sound a little like just a different spin on a plateau, but they want winners who want to go further, than people who want business school to solve their problems for them. So why does he want to go to business school? That's something they do care about.

As for having staff -- actually, I am way older than you and I have only managed staff a few times in my life, so that's not really the issue. The issue is about leading teams that have staff on them, so if he's project managed an initiative and he was the guy doing some of the directing, then he's managed people.

And even if he hasn't managed people indirectly, he might want to look at any campaigns he's managed, and specifically any metrics related to the success of those campaigns. A "story" should include times when he's influenced something -- an outcome, an event, people's decisions, a company or an organization. The latter is kind of big, but the former isn't so hard to figure out.
Make sense?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

8/15/14

makes complete sense, so it's more about managing projects and leading people than having subordinates and people who report up to you. he's definitely done that and I'm sure he has plenty of stories.

and I probably exaggerated the career rut stuff, a more accurate thing to say would be that he's hit his ceiling. he's in his mid 20s, his boss is in his early 30s, and the only upward move he has is his boss' position but because his boss is so young, his real only opportunity to move "up" is to move out and I think b-school would help. he's still thinking about the MBA but I figured some advice from you would help. thanks again

SB for recognizing the templeton quote!

"The four most dangerous words in investing are: 'this time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton

"The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself." - Benjamin Graham

8/15/14

Hitting the ceiling good -- I mean, not for him, but as a reason to take on a transformational experience like business school.
Admissions directors want people to succeed because they want to be there and propel themselves forward. I did take your word "rut" pretty literally, but wanted to just explain that it's hard to get in when business school feels like the only option.

And thx for the SB !

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

8/20/14

Betsy, I'm in the process of getting my LOR's completed and am having trouble with the following question:

"Please describe the most important piece of constructive feedback you have given the applicant. Please detail the circumstances and the applicant's response"

One of my recommenders is my supervisor who I'm sure will be able to come up with something, but my other recommender is the board president of a non-profit I've been sitting on the board at (and actively involved in other areas of the organization) for some time. The problem is that, while I've worked very closely with her over my entire time here, there hasn't really been a time where she's given me substantive constructive feedback (aside from the normal discussions that happen around working together on various projects). As a result, she isn't sure how to answer this question, and neither am I.

I'd really like to stick with her as a recommender because I've worked so closely with her on so many different things at this organization, but am not sure how to tackle this problem. What should I do?

8/20/14

Constructive feedback can be anything -- it isn't necessarily just a formal review or a criticism. For example, if you made a presentation and she said, "that was great but in your discussion you could have mentioned X" that's constructive feedback. It's really ANY feedback, rather than, "wonderful!" "first rate" or "that stinks"
So if you've worked with her closely, she has to have interacted with you in a way that has helped you progress.
Can you think of something like that?
Here's some food for thought: feedback that you might want to include someone in an important discussion, feedback that you are taking on too much and need to focus more on the point at hand, feedback that you want to be more confident when dealing with a certain constituency... unless you've been perfect and she is not genuinely interacting with you, then you should be able to pick out something meaningful.
That's why they ask for people who are senior to you, because such people really do help develop you by guiding you along in your personal and professional progress.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

8/26/14

Hi Betsy,

When it comes to career goals (i.e. the elevator pitch you mention in your video in the "employer info" section of the HBS app), how specific and resume-based should your career aspirations be?

For example, I have consumer/retail consulting experience and mid-market private equity experience. After business school, I want to take a corporate development to break into a specific consumer/retail segment, and eventually lead a smaller company in the space. The skills are there for the near-term jump, and I can tie my two experiences to date to the long-term goal (passion/interest in the types of problems seen in the industry broadly, but more excited about the big impact that can be made growing a smaller company than working 30 years at a behemoth to watch the share price increase by six cents).

However, I haven't yet worked in the specific part of consumer/retail in which I'm most interested in exploring. There are non-work reasons (think an avid microbrewer wanting to work for Sam Adams, a runner for Nike, or an amateur pilot for JetBlue) that point to the specifics...is that good enough, or am I better off saying I want to build the next great consumer company than the next Under Armour?

Thanks!

Life, liberty and the pursuit of Starwood Points

9/5/14

Wow, Peter, for some reason I didn't see this post! Oh dear oh dear. Blame WSO
Quick answer, as I am probably sure you've refined your Career Aspirations part of the HBS applicaiton,
You should have had the chance to mention that you are an avid microbrewer, but you should have enough room to tell them that you want to blend your work skills with your other passions, essentially, your vocation with your avocation to make your difference in the world.
I think your second question was about saying to build the next great consumer company, rather than Under Armour, right? If Under Armour is your role model firm, why not? I'm assuming you mention Under Armour because you are passionate about fitness, right?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

9/5/14

And here's the HBS video Peter Gibbons was talking about. I produced it for Poets & Quants. It's only 6 minutes long.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

9/17/14

Wow, things seem a little slow on this forum these days.
So, thought I would check in and see if anyone has any specific questions about the next set of Round 1 applications that are coming up.
Today I am working a bit on Sloan, since that is due in a week, and of course Stanford.
MIT is a little different from some of the other applications --- especially in that they do not want to hear about your future vision or goal. Fact is, they don't believe you. Take a look here
http://mitsloanadmissions.com/2014/07/22/mba-appli...

I'm also working on applications for Wharton (and yes, I think you should write the optional essay), Haas (do not cut and paste from any other school essays, especially here), and advising on recommendation strategy.
Got questions? The doctor is in

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

9/17/14

Hey Betsy,

If you wouldn't mind taking a look at my profile/experiences and let me know what you think It'd be greatly appreciated...

26 y/o white male
first generation college grad
760 GMAT (w/ pretty even splits)
3.2 social sciences major from top 50 LAC
Varsity football athlete/captain
Managed a decent amount of money for some small businesses during undergrad
Have written 2 published papers in my field and have submitted a third (think Journal of Finance, etc)
2 years corporate strategy at a F100 company
1.5 years as an analyst a ~500mm L/S Equity HF
Currently an analyst at a 1-2bb Event-driven HF
Started/Run a non-profit
Received fellowship from a very well known investor's charity to do research in preparation for starting the non-profit
Have somewhat of an alternate transcript - A's in Calc, Stats and Micro/Macro Econ from Berkeley extension

I have a pretty legitimate reason for the low GPA, but am not sure that schools really care about those things.

I know it's likely a reach but I'd like to target H/S mostly because I don't really need to get an MBA and at this point in my career giving up my salary/bonus for two years would be difficult to justify. In your mind is it even worth my time to apply to H/S or should I look elsewhere? And, either way, what other schools would be receptive to a guy with my particular stats/experiences?

Thanks in advance for any insight!

patternfinder:

Of course, I would just buy in scales.

See my WSO Blog | my AMA

9/18/14

OK, I actually don't think profile evaluations are actually that helpful to you (or anyone else) -- it's a little too random for my taste. It's like opining on a sports team -- part guess and a teeny bit of numbers.

But there are questions I can answer -- and I'll do that now

Let me start with the GPA question -- do schools care? The short answer is yes. Of course they do. It's the only way to measure how well you do in a school. But the top line number is the least important of them all. It takes no more than a second for an experienced reader to look through your transcript and see what you have done with yourself during school. How have you challenged yourself? (basketweaving or organic chemistry?) What is the trend ? Low first-year grades made up for it later, good stuff. How interesting are you? Liberal arts schools are great places to really dabble in lots of different things, but is there a method to the madness?
The schools also care about class rank. If 40% of students are getting A averages, 3.2 is tough. Yes, you say you have excuses, but um, they better be good.
Having said all that, you did exactly what anyone should do, and that is, you went out and got an alternative transcript. And from Berkeley extension, which is a real program (vs. community college or U. Phoenix) and has been seen before by admissions reps. And you took calc and stats, which are the tough courses. SO, your 3.2 is now a wash.
Even splits on a GMAT are also good, (for those who haven't read anything I've ever written, it's all about the subscores!)

Now for the interesting points:
Varsity football captain -- nice, even if it is a liberal arts school (I guess it is not my alma mater Vassar, because the best we can muster up is a rugby team)
Managing money -- sure, although I'm less impressed than most because after working in the industry for 2 decades, I think Asset Management is boring! More interested in work in a corporate finance firm because real companies are more interesting managerially.

Published papers -- I'm personally interested because I work for the Journal of portfolio management (and other Institutional Investor Journals, such as my baby, the Journal of Retirement), when not in the busy season for admissions. But I don't think it tells an admissions officer much about your ability to contribute to a case method class discussion or add value in a learning team, except on the technicalities, which is not the point.

So, if the question is, "should I apply" , the answer is, always up to you. There's no downside risk, except $250 in application fees and the political capital you might have to spend by asking for recommendations from your boss.
If you do apply you should take it seriously. Don't just say, "oh, I'll give it a try and maybe I'll go if I only get in."
That is kind of arrogant, and not the way the admissions world works these days.

So yeah, if you want to change your life, it's worth it. Guarantee that no matter where you go to business school, you will not be the same the day you graduate as the day you applied.

Happy to answer additional questions -- the more you tell us, here in this oh-so-public forum, the better answer you'll get.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

9/29/14

Hi Betsy,

I have a question that's been nagging at me and I was hoping you could me with it - I have asked this elsewhere on the forum but would like the opinion of an admissions consultant.

First, here is a brief overview of my profile: I graduated in 2010 from an Ivy, was a BB analyst for 2 years in a top group, now at a MM PE firm where I have been since.

Business school has always been on my radar and I would like to go at some point. However, I have always dreamed of starting my own company - I have been working on an idea for the past six months and it has gained significant traction to the point that I just got significant commitments from angel investors. If I were to continue with this, I would need to leave my firm at year-end (my contract finishes early next year anyway) and do this full time. Additionally, if I decide not to pursue with my company, I may have the option to join a later-stage tech startup in a biz dev/operations role. Either way, I want to get out of finance and into the tech/entrepreneurship world.

My concern is the following: I am not naive to the fact that startups/entrepreneurship will be 100x harder than anything I've done in the past, and if this flops, I would like to be in a position to apply to business school next fall. I would really love to pursue a tech opportunity now but I am worried (and maybe stupidly so) how this will look to an adcom. Questions/Issues I can see arising are:

1) I would have 6 years of experience vs. 5, the average number of work experience for top schools - plus if I start my own company, is that really considered "work experience"?
2) The adcom would be confused about my career goals - although I would obviously explain that my goals are to transition into tech and leave finance - also, does working somewhere for 1 year and then applying look odd?
3) If I do start a company, the adcom would not like the idea of admitting an entrepreneur, especially one that has not (yet) created a Facebook or Uber

Overall, how would this look on b-school applications? Sorry for the long post, but I would appreciate your advice!

10/1/14

Hello @"entrepreneurftw"
The quick review is that a failed effort is better than no effort. I don't know where the myth comes that every enterprise must be successful for admission to business school. Hey, I know quite a few people from Lehman Brothers who got to top schools after 2008.
And as for failed startups -- oh my, you know all about the lessons from failure right? You know, Michael Jordan missed 9000 shots in his career? It's crazy to assume that you have to succeed at a start-up to add to the business school class.
So... here's where I come down on your questions

1) I would have 6 years of experience vs. 5, the average number of work experience for top schools - plus if I start my own company, is that really considered "work experience"?

I cannot see why not
2) The adcom would be confused about my career goals - although I would obviously explain that my goals are to transition into tech and leave finance - also, does working somewhere for 1 year and then applying look odd?

Not everyone's career is linear, but it has to go forward in some way. Like sailing, you tack and gibe to get where you need to go, If you have thought through the reasons for your progression, then you are fine --but you will have to explain the path. If you can explain it to yourself, then you should be able to explain it to an admissions board. If you cannot and it's mushy, then you will have trouble being taken seriously.
3) If I do start a company, the adcom would not like the idea of admitting an entrepreneur, especially one that has not (yet) created a Facebook or Uber

Not even close to true.

So let's do this!

Betsy

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

9/30/14

Hi Betsy,

I'm 27 years old
GPA: 3.4
GMAT: 750
Good leadership and extra-curriculars
Good LOR
I'm a CPA and work at a Big 4 firm, history of promotions and high performance

I have a bit of an oddity in my profile. I went to small non-target private Catholic college and enrolled in the masters of accounting program immediately after graduation as is typical to gain eligibility for the CPA exam. However, I did an internal transfer after 12 hours and ended up finishing with a MBA with accounting concentration in order to take more business classes (I thought I was being ambitious and didn't see any downside at the time). It was not the traditional MBA experience as I started with no work experience, worked full-time throughout it, and took all night classes. I'm looking to move into finance now (I double majored in undergrad, did a finance internship, and have passed CFA level I), and I'm interested in the full-time MBA day program experience and benefits that come with on campus recruiting from a prestigous school.

Does having an MBA with accounting concentration make me ineligible for a MBA-Finance from a top 20 program? I plan on using the optional essay to explain, but I'm not sure if I'll even be considered.

Thanks,
Holden

9/30/14

Sorry to post twice, but I'm not allowed to edit posts yet and felt this was worth adding. My MBA-Accounting program was completed in 45 hours with 24 of those hours coming from accounting courses. From my research this breakdown is much more in-line with your typical masters in accounting program than a MBA (usually 60 credit hours).

10/1/14

oh, didn't know about that no-editing rule. Sorry about that.
Thanks for the added info

So, you might be one of the few candidates where having a previous MBA isn't a problem. I do believe that Wharton, for example, doesn't have a problem with it -- and I saw that in the now erased Student2Student forum last year. If anyone has access to the wayback machine, send me a note and I will find the comment.
I guess Wharton has decided that current students and recent grads are not proxies for the admissions committee anymore. (probably smart on their part)

Anyway, it's the kind of thing that could go either way. But before you get all your hopes up, the best thing to do is ask. I'm going to guess that it's not impossible, but it will require some up front work on your part.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

10/1/14

Hello Betsy,

love the fact that you're giving prospective students honest advice, hard to find that from a reputable source.

I'm trying to create a 2~3 year plan that would put me in a position to be competitive for any of the target schools Bulge Brackets recruit at. I'm currently a Financial Analyst for a major city in the west coast (Government Administration), and volunteer both for social awareness non-profits and also for local politics. I'm currently trying to get an executive board position for an organization outside of my career.

However, here is a major problem I see from my basic profile:

- I'll be ~33-34 by the time I'm ready for B school
- Economics undergrad with a 4 year GPA of 3.3, major GPA of 3.7

A lot of my personal focus revolves around my community through local political activism and through volunteer work, whether it be as a mentor for underprivileged youth, helping feed the poor, and other similar volunteer activities. It's one thing I'm very passionate about.

However, is my current career lacking in prestige to get into a top B school? I don't have a gmat score as of yet, but I do plan on studying vigorously for that to make up for the not-so-stellar undergrad GPA.

I also have a pretty unique personal life story that I could PM you about if you think those type of things help in getting into a top MBA program, which is one of the reasons why I participate in my community. Aside from that, what else could I do that could help my chances of becoming competitive? Thanks!

10/3/14

Hi RedJohn
thanks for the question, and yes, I try to be candid -- but remember -- take everything you read on a public forum with a grain of salt! None of us have all the answers, particularly me.

So with you, let's work backwards. You want to work for a bulge bracket firm -- doing what? Investment banking? M&A? And why bulge bracket and where? I think it's hard sometimes for a person to engineer themselves when their passion is something else. I am not saying that you wouldn't be able to do what you say you want to do, but I don't know if all the work to reinvent yourself as the perfect mid-career business school candidate is going to get you where you *really* want to go in the end.

Not sure also if you unique personal life story is the focus here --- the point is more, are you headed in the right direction and does business school and your stated goal make sense? that's my first question -- and let's go from there.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

10/6/14

Hi Betsy,

So, as far as a bulge bracket goes:

The Why:

The reason is because, as passionate as I am about politics and community involvement, I'm also passionate about finance. It wasn't up until my senior year in college that I realized I wanted to get involved in investment banking, specifically mergers & acquisitions or IPO underwriting. For the most part I had wanted to be an economist but I had a little bit more access to knowledge about different careers in my last year, but sadly realized that I was too late in trying to grab an investment banking internship at a boutique or regional at the time (geting a BB internship would have been impossible at a non-target school with a gpa

Ultimately, the reason I'd like to go BB vs middle market or boutique has to do with exit opportunities down the road. I've seen postings within the realm of finance/investment banking/ PE/VC that list "Bulge Bracket experience preferred/highly desired/required". However, there are various other reasons bulge brackets seem attractive as well, such as name recognition and the ability to work on larger deals.

The Where:

Not quite as important to me, i'm flexible location-wise. Could be New York, San Francisco, LA, etc.

So a little bit about my life story:

So investment banking, in general, has been a huge focus for me for a while now. I've poured over forum after forum and have been taking the time to learn about building lbo models, DCF models, ratio analysis, etc. for some time now.

I'm currently a financial analyst for a major city in the west coast, I got this job due to nepotism and jumped at the opportunity since it was the closest thing to finance I could get. I'm currently trying to break into the private sector as a financial analyst.

To Explain Why B-School:

It's practically impossible to break into banking at this point (Out of school, GPA

10/24/14

Hi RedJohn,
Finally I am getting back on WSO, and you are the first person I want to answer.
So, given the background you've given me, I'm going back to your first question

However, is my current career lacking in prestige to get into a top B school?

A lot of it depends on what you do and how much influence you have on your organization. Not everyone has a job working at a glam PE firm or McKinsey, although I've seen a fair correlation (not necessarily causation) between these types of employers and the very best business schools. I do think HBS, Stanford and to some extent the other very elite schools really do want to have some brand name recognition of your firm; doesn't mean it has to be famous, but you have to put it into context so that they understand it. And you have to overcome any prejudices they may have about local government employees, who are not generally known to be the best of the best. Assuming you are the best of the best, you need to show that and show how you have made a significant impact on your organization, given the choices you have made. I think moving to the private sector is probably a good idea.

I've mentioned this before about the "unique personal life" challenges - and I think that helps once the rest of the picture is in place. The thing is, if your candidacy is strong without the personal challenges, then the fact that you have overcome something difficult helps. But if you are using that challenge as an excuse for not excelling, then they don't cut you a lot of slack.

One more thing, and that is your interest in bulge bracket firms. I get that, and appreciate your interest. Many of the big firms do hire people from all of the top 10-15 schools, so it's worth keeping your list as broad as you feel comfortable.

As for the things you can do to become competitive, you mention that you have been working on lbo modeling, but perhaps a course where you get a grade or a credible certificate? Would you consider looking at studying for the CFA? All of these things show you are serious in terms of career trajectory and in terms of added value. It's fine to say you are studying on the side, but you need to verify that you can do the work, and that's either on the job or in a classroom.

Hope this helps,
Betsy

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

10/26/14

Hi Betsy,

I'm starting to weigh the pros and cons of an MBA, and would very much appreciate your (quick) take on my profile (outlined below). As you'll notice, a common theme among my work experiences is CleanTech / sustainability. This is an industry that I'm passionate about, and if I were to pursue an MBA I would aim to transition to an investing role within it after graduating.

Based on this, I have two initial questions for you:

1. Do you think my profile would be competitive at top 5 - 10 schools?
2. Do you think having a diverse set of experiences within a (somewhat) niche industry with the goal of remaining in that industry post-MBA would be a compelling story from an Ad-Com perspective?

Thank you very much for the feedback.

------

Background:
- 27 years old at matriculation (Fall 2016); 5 years work experience
- Male; Caucasian American

Work Experience:
- Current: 1.5 years in a finance / operations / strategy role at a mid / late-stage CleanTech startup (not a household name, but well known within the industry); unique role with significant responsibility / exposure to senior management; closely involved with capital raising / strategic planning (VC funding and likely IPO in 1 - 2 years); one promotion since joining with a second likely to occur prior to applying; beginning to gain managerial responsibilities as we build out team (one direct report)
- 2 years as an Analyst / Sr. Analyst at a MM IB (CleanTech group); top ranked analyst in class; strong deal experience
- summer internship at a top tier mutual fund (quantitative research)
- summer internship at a boutique mutual fund focused on sustainable investing (equity research)

Education / ECs:
- Non-target east coast state school
- 3.4 GPA (upward trend Junior and Senior year)
- 720 GMAT (taken in college)
- ECs (none since college): Leadership roles in two groups; member of a club sports team; study abroad; moderate volunteer work

2/11/15

Hmm, I think my thread has been pretty quiet lately, and that's partly my fault.. A super busy season! But hey, it's also a little thin over here on the business school barrage.
I know people are trying to sort out their interview situations and whether they should consider Round 3, or wait til next year, or not do it at all. Anyone have any admissions questions they need answered?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

2/12/15

hi betsy - how competitive is round 3? im thinking of applying to tuck, haas, and possibly yale. 1+ year at top ibank in research, 6 years running ecommerce site i founded. 3.75 from top 25 us college, 740 GMAT. white male.

2/16/15

Hi @"Frank Slaughtery" Ah, the old Round 3 question. I write about it every year in a blog post
http://masteradmissions.com/talking-about-round-3-...

where I quote admissions officers, including Dee Leopold from HBS and Kurt Ahlm from Booth. Their bottom line is: Fewer spaces, admissions folks have seen just about everything by now, and you need to be a strong candidate

So indeed, if you are ready now, and have a decent reason for waiting this long, sure, why not? I do think that you want to mention in the optional why you just figured it out, when you could have applied in the more obvious first 2 rounds. Usually the reason makes sense, but I think think it is worth bringing it up just so you look like you are aware that most candidates apply by the January deadline.

Here's a related question I got from a candidate: He asked if a school could simply not take students 3rd round, even if they have it.
My answer: I think that would be wrong if they just blew off all the students who applied 3rd round. . Schools that have 3rd rounds are pretty much obligated to admit some students. If they aren't serious about admitting candidates, then they could follow MIT Sloan's lead, and just call it a day after the January round.

Anyway, I know students who have gotten in on round 3 at almost every top school --so if you think it's worth doing this year, do it!

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

2/18/15

Hi @"Frank Slaughtery" Ah, the old Round 3 question. I write about it every year in a blog post
http://masteradmissions.com/talking-about-round-3-...

where I quote admissions officers, including Dee Leopold from HBS and Kurt Ahlm from Booth. Their bottom line is: Fewer spaces, admissions folks have seen just about everything by now, and you need to be a strong candidate

So indeed, if you are ready now, and have a decent reason for waiting this long, sure, why not? I do think that you want to mention in the optional why you just figured it out, when you could have applied in the more obvious first 2 rounds. Usually the reason makes sense, but I think think it is worth bringing it up just so you look like you are aware that most candidates apply by the January deadline.

Here's a related question I got from a candidate: He asked if a school could simply not take students 3rd round, even if they have it.
My answer: I think that would be wrong if they just blew off all the students who applied 3rd round. . Schools that have 3rd rounds are pretty much obligated to admit some students. If they aren't serious about admitting candidates, then they could follow MIT Sloan's lead, and just call it a day after the January round.

Anyway, I know students who have gotten in on round 3 at almost every top school --so if you think it's worth doing this year, do it!

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

2/12/15

Hi Betsy,

Are you familiar with Oxbridge? I'm looking to throw an app at both but have heard mixed reviews on their ability to facilitate changing careers. I'm looking to move to strategy consulting, and if that fails, finance service advisory (e.g KPMG). I'm a dual citizen if it helps any.

4 yrs WE, 710 GMAT, White Male, 3.5 GPA arts degree, WE = Asset Management/relationship mgmt. for non-profit and high net worth families, top boutique in the country (non-US).

2/18/15

Hi Revul, I missed this post -- my apologies.
Of course I have heard of the Said and Judge schools of business!
The reason both schools have mixed reviews on changing careers is because they are one-year programs. So, if someone is from very far outside of your target industry -- that is, strategy consulting or financial service advisory, then it is a lot harder to make the switch. I don't think that Asset Management work is that far off, but it depends on what you do. If you are a US and EU citizen, you might have an easier job getting a consulting gig -- relationship management in financial services is fairly transferable, and the EU work permit passport does help.
What worries me is that you say, "I'm looking to throw in an app". Doesn't sound that focused or passionate.
I'm not saying you have to be desperate, but since this is round 3 or 4 for those schools, you might have to have a strong case for admission.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

2/18/15

thanks for the reply @"Betsy Massar". the link you sent doesn't work however. any idea how much more competitive round 3 is compared to rounds 1 and 2 and what my chances would be at the schools mentioned?

2/18/15

Here's a corrected link.
http://masteradmissions.com/talking-about-round-3-...

Round 3 is much more competitive in that 90% or more of the class has already been picked.
But if you add something different to the class, then sure, why not?
If you are a long shot for rounds 1 & 2 anyway, it probably makes sense to wait until the following year so you can strengthen your application. Usually candidates with any weakness at all will get passed over in Round 3. Just not enough seats left.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

2/18/15

Hi @"Betsy Massar",

I am re-evaluating my undergrad academic profile and I saw that I didn't do well in first two core quantitative classes (calculus I and II) my freshman year (earned C and D respectively) but I did well I managed to have an upward trend in not only my GPA but in my last two core quantitative classes (Statistics and Statistics II - Earned A's in both).

From what I understand MBA admissions takes an emphasis on your mathematics performance in regards to your undergraduate academic profile and I am afraid that my calculus scores freshman year in college will hurt me. Is this something to worry about? If not what should I do to overcome that shortfall?

2/20/15

Hi @"killaqueeen"
A "D" isn't the best, and takes some getting over, you are right. I think the best thing you can do right now is to do well on the quant section of the GMAT. Probably a 49 or 50 would do it.
Freshman year is sometimes a bit of a bust, so I certainly hope you made up for it in the rest of your transcript.
Also, it depends on where you are looking to apply. Some schools are less picky than others.
Obviously Harvard and their ilk are probably going to look twice, so the rest of the application has to be really strong.
You are competing, unfortunately, with students who took the same classes as you from the same school as you and got A's. That's the problem. So you want to excel beyond what those other candidates are offering -- and your GMAT is one way, your leadership and work experience is another, and your interesting-ness is another after that.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

3/18/15

Thanks @"Betsy Massar"! I had a quick follow up question. I have been seriously planning to build an alternative transcript especially in my calculus classes. A lot of people here recommend the UC Berkeley Extension program but I was wondering if taking calculus courses at a local community college would be okay?

3/30/15

wow, sorry I missed this note --
I actually think non-community college classes are preferred. They just aren't taken as seriously as four-year college programs, especially now with online options.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

2/19/15

Hi Betsy, Thanks for doing this. I have a question regarding extracurricular experience.

As an entry-level financial services professional with limited free time, to what extent do admissions committees expect involvement in non-profit organizations? I would like to be involved with an educational non-profit for inner-city kids, but don't think that I realistically have time to take a leadership role. At best, I'd be able to devote time weekly/monthly as a volunteer. Do you think that adcoms would take a demanding work schedule into account (and not penalize me for not founding a non-profit like so many other applicants seem to)?

4/21/15

Hi Betsy,

I have a quick question for you. What are you thoughts on the HBX CORe program as an alternative transcript for Business School. I recently got accepted and have employee sponsorship to enroll in the program. I am thinking about Business School a few years down the line and want to work to offset a lower GPA(3.3ish). I know this is a new program, but the appeal to me is that it is a nicely packaged set of 3 Pre-MBA courses that has a reputable name stamped on it.

It would take me much longer to compete three courses through a UCLA extension type of school and it would be nice to earn this certificate in 10 weeks and to have checked a box to prove that my lower GPA isn't indicative of my academic performance. Let me know what you think. Thanks in advance for your help.

4/21/15

I love the HBX CORe program!

The thing that makes it especially cool is that you have to get admitted to the program, so showing HBS (and other schools) later that you made it through that hoop is terrific. Indeed, it is designed to do a lot of things, such as teaching you the fundamentals and language of a business at an academic level. But importantly, going through the program and doing well shows that you have initiative and will help offset the lower GPA.
I've always said that the lower GPA isn't the end of the world, but if you have the time and the support from your firm to do something about it, the HBX CORe program is a wonderful way to go.
Also, being one of the first students, the test pilots, as it were, probably is even better, as it shows you were willing to support HBS in its new program when it is unproven. I know that's a bit mushy and hard to substantiate, but it never hurts to help them when they need it.
And yes, it is shorter and more intense than extension courses, which I also favor. In your case, though, the HBX CORe wins hands down.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/21/15

Betsy Massar:

I love the HBX CORe program!

The thing that makes it especially cool is that you have to get admitted to the program, so showing HBS (and other schools) later that you made it through that hoop is terrific. Indeed, it is designed to do a lot of things, such as teaching you the fundamentals and language of a business at an academic level. But importantly, going through the program and doing well shows that you have initiative and will help offset the lower GPA.
I've always said that the lower GPA isn't the end of the world, but if you have the time and the support from your firm to do something about it, the HBX CORe program is a wonderful way to go.
Also, being one of the first students, the test pilots, as it were, probably is even better, as it shows you were willing to support HBS in its new program when it is unproven. I know that's a bit mushy and hard to substantiate, but it never hurts to help them when they need it.
And yes, it is shorter and more intense than extension courses, which I also favor. In your case, though, the HBX CORe wins hands down.

@mrharveyspecter

I'm a student of HBX CORe. It has a very diverse group of folks. Many incoming HBS students or MBA students from UMich, INSEAD etc., or undergrads from MIT, Notre Dame, Berkeley, and many many others are seasoned professionals.

it is also quite selective - I know people who received rejection. also with a survey of other members' profile, I don't even think I'm in the upper 50% percentile among everyone---

With a background in BBA, The 3 courses are not really refresher courses at all!
The classes are also NOT like typical boring MOOCs with endless spirals of video tapes.
It requires your attention and you're encouraged to participate all the time. It is a very valuable opportunity that you can invest a lot into, and you could really get what you put in.

4/21/15

thanks for the info! this is really helpful, as the only stuff I know about at this stage is the marketing material they send to alumni about these expanded programs. Appreciate your insight.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/21/15

shuang19:
Betsy Massar wrote:

I love the HBX CORe program!

The thing that makes it especially cool is that you have to get admitted to the program, so showing HBS (and other schools) later that you made it through that hoop is terrific. Indeed, it is designed to do a lot of things, such as teaching you the fundamentals and language of a business at an academic level. But importantly, going through the program and doing well shows that you have initiative and will help offset the lower GPA.

I've always said that the lower GPA isn't the end of the world, but if you have the time and the support from your firm to do something about it, the HBX CORe program is a wonderful way to go.

Also, being one of the first students, the test pilots, as it were, probably is even better, as it shows you were willing to support HBS in its new program when it is unproven. I know that's a bit mushy and hard to substantiate, but it never hurts to help them when they need it.

And yes, it is shorter and more intense than extension courses, which I also favor. In your case, though, the HBX CORe wins hands down.

@mrharveyspecter

I'm a student of HBX CORe. It has a very diverse group of folks. Many incoming HBS students or MBA students from UMich, INSEAD etc., or undergrads from MIT, Notre Dame, Berkeley, and many many others are seasoned professionals.

it is also quite selective - I know people who received rejection. also with a survey of other members' profile, I don't even think I'm in the upper 50% percentile among everyone---

With a background in BBA, The 3 courses are not really refresher courses at all!

The classes are also NOT like typical boring MOOCs with endless spirals of video tapes.

It requires your attention and you're encouraged to participate all the time. It is a very valuable opportunity that you can invest a lot into, and you could really get what you put in.

Great thank you both for the insight. I was unaware that it was so competitive to get into. I am planning on enrolling today for the summer session.

4/22/15

Hi Betsy-

Thanks for your guidance you provide all of us. I want to apply for my MBA this fall. I would have 3 years of experience at the time of matriculation. African American Male

740 GMAT (80% quant/95% verbal)
3.73 Undergrad GPA in Accounting(had a bad first semester. including a 1 credit F) All other semesters are higher with 4.0s sprinkled in
3.63 Masters GPA in Accounting
Applying for my CPA now should have by the time of applications but have passed the tests and gotten the work experience.

Work for a big 4 accounting firm in their risk consulting group. I will be promoted this summer.
Volunteer weekly as a mentor for economically disadvantaged high school kids. Been doing this for about a year.

I know I have competitive Academic stats. Work experience definitely would not be considered blue chip but somewhat decent. What do you think my chances are at H/S/W? Also of the M-7 schools that give merit based aid do you think i would likely receive substantial scholarships/fellowship? I want to be able to take care of my mom post-graduation and that will be difficult with 150k in debt. So I am very conscious of cost.

Thanks!

4/22/15

Hi @alexjh1 welcome to the rough and tumble world of Wall Street Oasis. And thanks for showing up on this thread.

First, your GMAT is great -- a wonderful split. Tell me, when it was straight 80% on quant, what was the raw number? It changes around depending on other test takers. I like to tell students to look at the raw score rather than the percentile because the % is not stable.
The undergrad GPA is good -- anything over your target school's average gives you a comfortable margin. However, you will have to explain the 1 credit F. See this article in Poets & Quants on GPAs http://poetsandquants.com/2015/04/16/can-gpas-get-... (yeah, I am quoted)
As long as you are honest, it shouldn't be a big deal

Accounting, unfortunately, doesn't have star power, and even with a CPA, you are going to look solid, but not rock star. Literally, I know a candidate who was an accounting major with almost a 4.0, and WAS a rock star in Korea -- so you want to be well rounded too.

You asked what your chances are, and I am afraid I don't do chances -- it's like odds on who will win the World Series or Final Four at this stage: not that helpful.
As for money, which I appreciate is huge, there may be more money if you apply through the Consortium, which has extra funds for under-represented minorities. There are also other fellowships like the Toigo Foundation, if you are interested in staying in finance http://www.toigofoundation.org/
Some schools are more generous with fellowships, rather than loans -- but there's no real clearinghouse information on that that I know of. It's pretty murky and wish it were otherwise.
Anecdotally, I hear a lot about non-need based awards from Chicago, Wharton, Duke and Darden. Here's another Poets & Quants article that might be helpful
http://poetsandquants.com/2014/11/20/mba-scholarsh...

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/22/15

Thanks for your detailed response and the links for further research. I really appreciate it.

I guess by odds I meant would I be competitive to apply or would it be waste of money, As per the GMAT i got a 49 on Quant and a 41 on Verbal.

The 1 credit F lol. It was a pass/fail for a University Experience Class. Basically, I missed too many classes and it triggered an automatic fail. Do I have a good excuse for this? Not really. Where is this explained? Optional Essays? Would it really be worth it to spend an entire essay on one class(especially because its not a quant class or anything which would bring into question my ability) taken first semester when the overall transcript is pretty strong?

Thanks so much!

4/25/15

OK, in answer to your question about odds: when you put it like that, of course I don't think it is a waste of money. If you are worried, however, about the $250, given how it pales in comparison to the entire b-school bill .... I have to wonder it the whole thing is too much of a risk for you.
From what I have seen in my own career and as I coach students in the MBA process, I do think that you will get in somewhere you consider a good school. But you will have to apply to some schools that may reject you. Can you live with that?

Now, on to serious matters, an F is not an LOL in the eyes of admissions, even if it is in the silliest class on the planet. You have to address it in the optional -- if you weren't mature enough first year to realize that not showing up for class would hurt you in the long run with a permanent F on your record, then admit it. You don't want them thinking you can coast in certain areas because you did well in others. That's not a character trait that does down well when they are looking for leadership qualities.
Make sense?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/28/15

Thanks Betsy. It was not the cost of the applications that bothers me, poor use of wording. I plan to apply to about 5 schools and I just want to make sure that I am not wasting 3 of those applications(H/S/W) on schools that I really never stood a chance at, leaving me with only 2 applications out for more "realistic schools". But yes, more than ok with being rejected, especially if it results in me at a good school.

I especially appreciate your advice on the optional essay. I really thought the optional essay, when it came to grades was more if your overall GPA was not up to par. I thought that an individual mark did not matter if the overall picture still looked good(i.e. above average GPA for the class). I had sort of thought the transcript self explained(immediate correction to 3.8+ the following semester/no grades below a B for rest of academic career). Now that I know it as an issue or at least a potential issue, I will definitely address it in my essay.

I don't want to monopolize your thread with my B-school questions- but I have 1 more related to this essay. In reality my poor academic performance that semester was due to some serious family issues partnered with my general laziness/immaturity. Is it better to just go with the immaturity route rather than to bring in the family stuff? I don't want to sound whiney and run the risk of annoying an adcom.

Thanks for all your help.

4/29/15

Hi @alexjh1
It was only one course that you messed up on, and actually didn't do that badly in the rest of your classes, so I think immaturity works better as an excuse. If the family issue were really serious, then other courses would have suffered too. But you just thought this 1-credit course was a joke, so you didn't bother. That's immaturity, and that's almost understandable.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/24/15

I came in to checkout some materials and saw your question.
Q49 is usually the 80% range. Lots of people sit right here but have different percentiles. I think I've seen 83% with Q49 too.
I had a Q49 at 79% and a Q50 at 88%. The CAT shouldn't really make it a big deal for 1 more point, but it does....

4/24/15

thanks shuang, I do know that 49 is around 80% but I wanted a specific number from @alexjh1, to be able to advise him specifically.
Thanks for offering your split and raw numbers. It's useful.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/22/15

deleted

4/22/15

Hi Betsy,

I'm still a little ways away from applying (23 years old), but I wanted to see how I would stack up for a top 10 MBA program and what I can do to improve now.

Undergrad: Non-target in Texas, 3.34 GPA (I was a pre-med biology major for 2 1/2 years before switching to Finance)

GMAT: 770

Extracurriculars: Wrote for the school newspaper in college, Treasurer in fraternity

Outside Extracurriculars: Heavily into fitness, boxing, do some volunteer work here and there, alumnus advisor to fraternity chapter

Work: Analyst at a financial data firm (think Bloomberg, Reuters, etc). If I stay here, I'll be at an Assistant VP level by the time I apply for an MBA. A lot of client interaction with BBs, large hedge funds, PE firms, etc - but ultimately it's more middle-office work.

My goal is to get into strategy consulting post-MBA (ideally MBB or Deloitte, but who knows how things pan out). I know I have a low GPA, but I do have classes like multi-variable calculus, biochemistry, etc. in my transcript - about 90ish hours in science classes in total. What all can I do to improve my application in the next 3-4 years before I apply?

Thank you for doing this, by the way, this thread is very informative.

4/24/15

I owe you a longer response, and will do so later in the day, but want to comment on your extra curriculars. I don't see a lot of "wow" reactions from admissions on fraternity stuff -- sorry to say -- and being involved in fitness is a bit general.
I think if you want to really show leadership both on the job and off. And you really want to come up with activities (again, on the job and outside of the job) where you have a real impact on others' lives.
When you look at the backgrounds of people who have done really well in the admissions process, they have really made themselves excel in any number of ways -- some small and some large, but they have done work that is remembered and felt by others around them.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/27/15

Thank you for your response. I understand fraternity stuff isn't anything impressive; it was just something I was asked to do for a little bit. In terms of fitness, I participate in amateur physique competitions (so bodybuilding), and placed top 3 in the last one. I don't know how that would affect admissions, but that's something that's pretty big in my life.

I'm trying to come up with other things I can do that would be helpful to others - my company sponsors volunteer events every month which I take part in occasionally, but apart from that there's not much. Is there a resource you would be able to direct me to where I can examples of backgrounds of the people you mentioned?

4/27/15

@CptnAwesom3 I would recommend that you look at the profiles of students at your target schools. For example here's Harvard Business School's student profile page http://www.hbs.edu/mba/student-life/people/Pages/d...
a lot of these profiles show what the student is doing now, but if you read through, you'll see the backgrounds and outside interests. You can also check them out on LinkedIn, once you have their name. For example:
Check out Wombi Rose. Who would have guessed his background and interests?

But you are right, there's no real place with a list of successful students' extra curricular activities. I think the best recommendation I can offer is to really do what you can to get outside of yourself and be generous with mentorship. Admissions also prefer team sports to solo fitness; since business school is all about working in small groups. So while your fitness goals show conscientiousness and perhaps drive, you want to look for ways to test your leadership skills on either committees, sports teams, or volunteer boards.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/24/15

I'm graduating this semester from a nontarget with a double major in Finance & Economics and a 3.6 GPA. Have also been extremely involved in leadership roles on campus during undergraduate. I'm considering two opportunities post graduation and a big determining factor is MBA Admission chances because both are good roles that I'd enjoy doing. The first is a hybrid IB/DCM coverage Analyst role (non nyc) and the other is a Research Analyst role at a $5B to $10B foundation where the money benefits a great cause that anyone can relate to. The latter would be 50% portfolio analytics and 50% investment research.

The allure of IB is tempting, but I was also thinking that M7 admissions would appreciate the charitable aspect of the foundation. Any advice?

4/25/15

I hate to say it, because it is so transparent, but the foundation is probably a better bet. Especially if it is well known and importantly, well run. Just to split hairs though, what kind of training will you be getting in both cases and what kind of education/background do the people above you at the foundation have?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/25/15

Neither one has a structured training program. The team at the foundation seem to be pretty good at what they do. Most of the senior staff has been there for at least 10 years and they all have decades of experience. All have CFA and most have MBAs. No M7s but a Top 10 and a few Top 50s. They've never hired an undergrad before so they plan to have a significant mentorship aspect to the role without a formal training program. They also know about my interests to pursue an MBA in a few years.

As far as how well known it is, I'm not sure because I do not know a ton about the E&F space. They talked about how everyone in the business knows them and the CIO talked about Swenson as if he knew him personally so I think they are pretty good in the space. I can't find them on any of the lists like the Top 100 Foundations by Assets, but if they were listed on some of those they'd be in the Top 10.

4/27/15

@blueWing --the foundation sounds like it's probably a worth a try, as long as the money is the same. Of course, it would be great to be mentored by Swenson's mentee -- that is worth the price of admission. Is it in the same location as your other offer?
I think being the first undergraduate they ever hired is probably considered an accolade of sorts. It's the kind of thing you can put on your resume to make it clear that you are not just any analyst, but were the first!

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/25/15

What advice do you have for IB Analysts for differentiating themselves from all the other finance guys?

4/28/15

You know what, that is a great question. Sometimes it is easier than others, depending on your profile.
Here's the thing -- everyone is different. I figure you wouldn't have gotten a job at an investment bank if you were plain vanilla. It just doesn't work that way. Some here might argue that it's all just about GPA, but you know that to get into IB as an analyst, you have to show some three-dimensionality.
Most people are really more interesting than they think they are -- because they assume they have to get a Nobel Prize or something to stand out.
For example, what kind of an athlete are you? Even if it is completely amateur, have you organized any weird and wonderful tournaments? I know a guy who started a skateboarding club at his undergraduate school while studying neuroscience. I'm sure there's a connection. I know an engineer (male) who taught the waltz and choreographed a Viennese Ball. I know a derivatives trader who did theater in her spare time, and a lot of people who just did some outstanding work as volunteers. Not just raising money, but sitting down and getting to know their mentees, or whomever they were trying to help.

Now that's just on the extracurricular side. As for standing out at work -- you know how to do that: raise your hand for the interesting, challenging projects. Work on cross-functional, cross-border teams and go the distance. Figure out a way to make the team successful -- not just your own work. Have you had any experiences like that?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/28/15

Gotcha, thanks so much for the help! I actually am just about to graduate so I haven't started working full time yet. I am mostly asking just to get some guidance as I enter the real world and begin my IB Analyst stint. I am mostly worried about/questioning how I can get involved in other meaningful activities outside of working 80-100hrs a week. In college it was relatively easy for me to go the activities fair freshman year, find a couple clubs I enjoyed, and keep working at them until I eventually was fortunate enough to have a few leadership positions. I presume it'll be a lot harder to maintain activities outside of work given the long hours, so I am mostly asking about what sorts of activities you've seen IB Analysts get involved in that fit around the work schedule, but are also meaningful. Thanks again for the help!

4/28/15

Well, @Investment_Wanking for someone who isn't working yet, you have certainly picked an entertaining (and true!) name.
You hit the nail on the head when you write "activities that fit around the work schedule, but are also meaningful."
It is true that you will be working long hours, but if you look, the universe will provide. It's not hard, if you are aware, to bump into something that is not work-related that really makes a difference in your life. My own experience mentoring, or working with non-native speakers teaching them conversational English has rocked my world. For example, a few years ago, I did some ESL chats, with this woman from Saudi Arabia who was trying to get her English good enough so she could apply for a graduate program in biology. She was sponsored by the Saudi government and her husband and kids had come with her while she got advanced education. My whole world turned upside down by meeting her and her family. It wasn't like it took so much time, but the bond just made me feel like we had something really special.
Anyway, that's me. I'm sure you have a wider circle to draw from to get good ideas.

In the meantime, if you are really looking for some hard-core leadership training and can take the time, check out the National Outdoor Leadership School courses. They are expensive, but they are anything but fluffy. That will certainly turn your world around: https://www.nols.edu/courses/
this is the same organization that runs leadership courses for MBA programs. And besides, who wouldn't want to go kayaking in Patagonia?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/27/15

I'm hoping you can provide insight on a couple of recommendation questions I have. I read your recommendations article on Poets and Quants. Great advice. What are your thoughts on asking for a recommendation from someone who is recently retired? I'm hoping to ask a client who I've worked with extensively but he's retiring next month. I'm applying to 4-5 schools in Round 1 so I would need the recs this fall. I've read that schools require an official company email address and I'm a bit worried he won't still have one. Do you think this could be a problem?

Also, how many recommendations do you think it's appropriate to ask for from a single recommender? Given that the questions/forms differ from school to school, it seems like it's asking a lot to expect someone to write 4-5 versions for different schools. I'm confident that my chosen recommenders will be happy to help out, but they are busy and I get anxious thinking about asking them to do that much work. I really only have two people that could write me a strong recommendation so I don't have anyone else I can ask.

4/28/15

More soon, but quick answers -- recently retired is fine, especially if it's easy enough to figure out this is a real person. That's where LinkedIn is really useful.
They do like supervisors and someone who has been senior to you. Would this client fall into that category?

As for how many recommenders, it turns out that the schools are going toward a common recommendation form.
Not all, but many have the same 2 questions. Last year Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, Chicago, Columbia, Yale, Kellogg and I think Tuck (correct me if I am wrong on these monkeys!) all asked the same basic question. Cut and paste is OK for that part of the rec. Haas, MIT, and NYU had different questions -- and I cannot remember the rest.
Does that help?

PS: here's the link to the P&Q article I wrote: http://poetsandquants.com/2012/11/21/wrangling-gre...
Let me know if any of the links aren't working

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/27/15

Hey Betsy!

Current military officer here planning to apply this fall. My top schools are HBS, Booth, Columbia and NYU and am looking to break into banking. I scored a 710 (48q/38v) on the GMAT on the third time taking it (bombed the writing portion with a 4.0 though). I have a 3.6 gpa from a large big ten school which leads me into my main question: do people from non-elite undergrads get into top business schools? I love my undergrad school, but it doesn't seem to be too strongly represented at these schools- is this even an issue, and is there anything I can do about it?

Thanks in advance.

4/28/15

Hi @CF1988"
Thanks for checking in.
I always worry about potential red flags, and I am not loving the AWA score. It's not entirely about writing as in grammar but writing as in framing an argument. You are going to have to make sure that admissions officers know that this is a fluke -- that your logic or liberal arts bona fides are intact -- and not sure what I would suggest other than a retake. Do you have any idea why it went so badly for you?
Now, back to the rest, about your undergrad school. An undergraduate school doesn't have to be strongly represented to get you into a top school, but it does have to be accredited, and I am assuming that it is. Just to get an idea what the range of undergraduate schools is for a place as lofty as Harvard, take a look at this incredibly diverse list:
http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/class-profile/Pa...

I should actually print it out because this web page changes every year, especially around the margin. And there are always surprises. For example, there was no University of Nebraska in the class of 2014 (what would Warren Buffett say?) and the class of 2015 has nothing with the word "Iowa" in it. But has, say "Ohio Northern University" -- I have family near Cleveland, and I barely heard of that place!

It doesn't matter really; your military experience should trump trump trump any and all of that. It's the whole picture, not just whether you went to a "feeder" school.

make sense so far?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

4/28/15

@Betsy Massar ,

Thank you for the detailed response! I had never seen that list from HBS before. My undergrad school is actually represented, which was nice to see.

As far as the AWA, I simply didn't pay any attention to it this time around. No real excuse for that low of a score. I did score a 5.0 (60th percentile) on a previous test; will the adcom take that into account?

My major was in liberal arts and I hold a previous masters degree in a social science field- would that help convince the adcom that it was a fluke?

Edit: forgot to mention that I am a native English speaker and in the U.S. military.

5/7/15

x

5/1/15

Hi @TheKid1998 Thanks for writing. I'm not a big fan of evaluations, because I don't think they really help that much. I could say, "great! LOVE your profile, you'll get in!" and you'll go away happy.Are you looking for a sanity check? I would say that you are in the ball park, but that's really all I can say. If you look at the stats on their web page, you are fine enough. But "fine enough" isn't really that useful to you.

What I really want to know is, what are you most worried about in your application and story? How can I really help you?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/2/15

@Betsy Massar Thanks for the quick response. My biggest worry is that at this point I haven't shown any true interest / awareness - and by that I mean it's May and I haven't visited any schools, met with alumni / professors, taken the time to do my diligence for each school. I also know that it is important to apply as early as possible and with the case of Columbia, that would be early decision. Do you think it would be best if I applied in a few months or spent the next year becoming more involved in my target schools? My only worry is I am currently 26 years old and have 4 years of experience (slightly on the older side). Also, since you mentioned it - I would love if you could provide me with a sanity check on Harvard and Booth.

5/6/15

@TheKid1998 here's the link of the CBS first-term student
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/ama-reflecti...

right here on WSO! very helpful stuff.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/5/15

Thanks @TheKid1998 for giving me an excuse to flog the article I just wrote for Poets & Quants about visitings schools in the spring. Here's the link, before I forget: http://poetsandquants.com/2015/04/22/5-reasons-to-...
plus, if you read Dee Leopold's blog on the HBS website, you will see that if you don't visit a class before May 15 (like in a few days) you won't be able to see the case method in action, since the first-round deadline is before you can do class visits in September.

But all is not lost. You will see in the P&Q article that Amanda Carlson, head of admissions at Columbia, encourages people to visit in the summer, since they have classes year round. You could easily visit CBS, and then do due diligence by meeting with alums and students -- some are even here on WSO; someone, I recall, wrote a whole blog post here about their first year at CBS. (will post the link if I can find it later).
As for NYU, they traditionally have a late first-round deadline, at least a few weeks after everyone else.

And, of course, you could apply second round, which would allow you to continue to do your research by going to events (many in the summer and fall) and connecting with students an alums from the schools of your choice.
This part is entirely in your control: how much prep you want to do.

Now as for a sanity check, I still don't know enough about you or your passions, and what makes you tick to give an intelligent opinion about your chances. And in a public forum, I probably never will. And to be honest, in private, I probably would still be guessing. But even if you are an introvert, or don't have a lot of on-paper extracurriculars, there are ways that show your generosity in sharing your knowledge with others. And that's the ticket -- if you honestly think others will benefit from your presence in a classroom at business school, then you must apply. And in the humblest, or most grounded possible way, tell the admissions committee what you bring to the table -- that isn't already on your resume. Tell them about the white space on that piece of paper -- the stuff that makes you a great member of a class, the stuff that makes people want to work with you on the job, or simply go out with you for a few beers. You've probably got a lot more to offer than you think, becuase you are looking at it from the "on-paper" credentials. It's almost never about that. It's almost always about character.

Make sense? Helpful? Questions?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/5/15

Hi Betsy, I have some concerns about my profile appplying for top 10 MBA programs due to the lack of brand name associated with my current job and undergrad school. i went to a private college in the southeast that is only well known locally. I graduated with a 3.8 and networked my way into an FDLP role with a superregional bank. In college I gained some leadership positions in fraternities and clubs. I have some out of work activites including having run a marathon and plans to help volunteer coaching sports. Assuming i get a 700+ on GMAT I was wondering what else I can do to make up for that lack of brand name in my education and work experience?

6/16/15

Hi @1844, I was scrolling through previous pages and realized that I didn't answer this. Embarrassing! Well, we are still early enough in the annual admissions cycle -- that is, if you want to make a big difference in the application.
First, on the local school: just as a check you really should take a look to see if anyone from your undergraduate school has gone to any of your target programs. Obviously LInkedIn is a good way to check, but HBS does us all a huge favor by publishing incoming students' undergraduate educations. I've written about this before in my blog, but I'll save you from all that and bring you direct to the link on the school's website: http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/class-profile/Pa...
But even if it is not, note that this is just a one-year snapshot. There are some omissions of great schools -- one year no one in the entire class had come from the University of Nebraska!
I've said it here in this forum: What would Warren Buffett say?

So there's that. Then there is your job -- well, are you hitting it out of the park on your job or just doing well. The former matters . Maybe Stanford GSB (in my mind, very prestige oriented in pre-MBA jobs -- more than HBS I think) will set you aside because you aren't glamorous enough for them, but that doesn't mean that other schools in the top firmament won't consider you seriously. You mention that you worked your way up -- there's something in that, no doubt. You just have to explain it in a way that excites the person who is reading your application.

The other thing is your own contribution. It goes back to being an average ok candidate (easy to pass over) or someone who continues to stand out no matter where they are. The school looks at patterns. An admissions officer once told a student that they were impressed with his entire career, starting with his winning the spelling bee in the 8th grade (he had pictures to prove it too!),

Admissions readers are simply trying to figure out who will contribute most to the class. If you ask anyone at any top business school, they will say it's the people who make their experience special. Then ask them what they would consider a quality classmate, and they will often say someone who is really special, who contributes of themselves, and who is basically really interesting. So if you can make your application as interesting as you are, then you should do well.

If you arent' interesting, then I'm not sure there's much more I can suggest. But you can always make yourself interesting -- for example, my friend's son went to Mozambique and started a company. He didn't do it to get into business school, but I will be you that his experience certainly made an impression in the admissions office.

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/6/15

Hi Betsy, unique situation,

I currently am a first year at an OK lawschool (ND/USC/WUSTL/GW/EMORY/VANDY) and I took the GMAT to see if I could do the JD/MBA. Apparently the JD/MBA program will most likely take me if I got their median LSAT. I studied a bit and I scored a 750 Q46 V48, and now I'm wondering if I should hold my GMAT for b-school admissions in 4 or so years.

I had horrible undergrad grades(2.5) from a state school in a non-quantitative major. I don't have a great excuse for my grades. I'm straight through from undergrad. However, my grades in law school are strong (3.7+) and I am competitive for biglaw and this summer I have an in-house type job with an F200. I figure I can graduate at least cum-laude, maybe magna. However, in the future I would want to get on a non-legal track, I only went to law school because I had poor grades(and I got a boatload of scholarship money).

My question is should I try and apply to better B-schools 2-3 years down the line after working? I don't know how admissions would view my grad school grades in relation to undergrad.

One of my professors suggested applying to HBS 2+2, but I presume he thinks I have good undergrad grades.

Thanks for your help in advance.

5/6/15

Hi @Lawlschools -- thanks for the question. I noticed you also asked something to the whole community, so I hope they don't contradict me.
Easy stuff first: I don't think you would qualify for the HBS 2+2 type program because you have completed undergraduate school. I would have to look at the actual rules, but it's not likely from what I have seen.

The technicality of the GMAT is that it is good for 5 years from the date you took it, so you have plenty of time. That is, you don't have to decide today. And that's probably a good thing.

Given your track record, which is entirely academic, I think you would be judged by your GPA rather than work experience (which is limited thus far). So, not sure that you would really be that competitive for a great business school-- that is, without knowing ANYTHING else about you other than your numbers.
Your law school gig might look like what it is, a detour, without a strong, cogent argument that you know what you are doing and the total of your life and work experience will add to the class. Right now, it isn't clear why a classmate or a learning team member might benefit from your contributions. Ugh, I hate writing stuff like that.

But really, this is key, regardless of whether you are in law school on the job: what is the business school community, and future alumni community going to get by having you on their team? So far, not so clear. Doesn't mean you don't have something to offer, but from what you've reported here, don't have that much to go on.
You ok with that?

Betsy Massar
Come see me at my Q&A thread
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-...

Ask away!

5/7/15