Hi,
I have two associate level entry offers on which i need to make a decision quickly. I wish i knew about this forum earlier.
Anyway, the two offers are:
1) Exotic Fixed Income trader at Barclays Capital.
2) Foreign Exchange Structuring ("sales strat") at Goldman Sachs.
I always wanted to be a trader so I am inclined to accept Barclays. But many of my friends do point out that GS has a very strong brand and the first job out of school is very important to your resume. In terms of compensation also, atleast in the first 2-3 years , the GS role will probably pay better.
Any advice or comments will be very helpful. How is the Barcap brand perceived in the market currently ?
I think with all the sovereign debt FX will really be the focus for the next decade, plus its GS, you can always get another offer from BarCap later with GS on your resume.
Good luck and congrats!
Both these firms are very strong in FX so name brand is marginal. The real question is what you want to do. If you want to be a trader, go with BarCap and you can always transfer over to GS if you really want to in a few years. If you like Structuring/Sales then go with GS. Both are great offers to have, but if you go with GS you might not be able to become a trader. Especially since these are associate positions which means your graduating from Bschool. I agree that FX could be very hot this coming decade, but I think your real choice is Trader vs. Sales.
Good Luck.
i am thinking the same Gekko ... if i want to be a trader , then i should just go with BarCap and not be swayed by the strong brand of GS ... if I am any good, i can always try to go for trading at GS after 3-4 years.
can some more people give their advice plz ?
In trading, "prestige" is less important than in banking, pe, etc, because if you are good you will likely remain there for a long time, especially as an associate hire.
So what really matters is the amount of money you could generate in either position, which is probably higher with the barcap position (unless you are a great salesman/very personable). Generally more exotic products are more interesting, with more potential to make money, so the barcap position sounds solid.
unless you are crazy about becoming a trader, gs remains one class above!
but if you want to trade, then dont hesitate
Its easier to transition from trading to sales rather than the other way around. BarCap is one of the best in Debt..
Bank prestige doesn't matter in trading - desk prestige is a lot more important. I know people on WSO have a hard on for GS but in real life, the most important thing is making money and being successful. Someone above said you can move to GS after a few years at BarCap - well if you're good and getting paid why the hell would you even need to move? There are many, many people who get rich on Wall Street without ever setting a foot into Goldman.
Additionally it's very hard to move from sales to something else - I learned this the hard way when I got laid off from a sales structuring role. People think all you do is chat on the phone and go out to dinner with clients. Take trading and if you can't cut it you'll look great for any sales or structuring roles at other banks in the future.
since you like trading, Barcap will be the choice. ultimately it is what you want to be.. i believe that if you are passionate about what you are doing you can go far.. no point going to GS and realising that you hate the job.
and like what the rest said, if you are good at trading, im very sure there'll be lots of other companies willing to pay you more to work for them
congrats
The link is a recent report on FICC. It includes which banks are doing what in FX. You should also look at page 8/61. It shows that both banks are strong in FICC. The question still remains trader vs. sales, I just thought you would like to know more about each bank's operation.
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/Citi%20Fixed%20Income.pdf
Can't understand your hesitate between these two roles for an associate level. I could understand if we were talking about an internship or a first entry job where the brand name can play a significant role but in your case, there is no doubt that you want to trade so go for BarCap! I also think that if you want to join GS as a trader, you better come from BarCap in trading than GS in sales/structuring.
Good luck and congrats because both are great!
Call up GS and tell them you want to be on a trading desk or you'll go elsewhere. If they don't bite, then go w/ BarCap.
in terms of the future of rates exotics ...do you guys think that the volume will pick up in the next 1-2 years ? currently rates exotics is not doing very well i think ...
traderboy77, i was waiting for you to clarify exactly what area of fixed income exotics you were offered. It seems as though interest rates exotics is your desk. I also wanted you to be clearer on the type of FX structuring role. In any event...
Here is something I think you'd benefit from knowing:
a) sales/structurers who deal heavily with clients and entice them with new fancy ways to leverage a particular FX view. They take on no position risk, simply earn sales comission (very much like any sales person on any desk).
b)exotic structurers-at some of the prominent FX dealers, these guys are utter rockstars for this reason:
the exotic structurers are not only macroeconomic whizzes who can create a beautiful narrative for any currency trade, but they are also option pros who understand all the technical aspects of the new derivatives they are putting together. That being said, the traders love these guys because they can explain in detail how best to hedge away some of the intricate risk of these structured derivatives. The sales guys love them because when they cant find a way to explain to a client how this product works, the exotic structurer is the go-to guy!
I've got a colleague at DB-NY who broke it down like this (FX desk for example-15 traders, 40 sales guys, 2 exotic structurers)... u can see how important those 2 guys are
If GS can clarify which of these two your structuring role is more similar to, that might also aid your decision.
Also, for the exotic structurer, (depending on the bank/client base) these guys are also able to trade their own book since their knowledge of the product is so very deep (keep this in mind)
CD~
How difficult is it to get a job as an exotic structurer? What type of backgrounds are they looking for?
Hi CD,
GS structuring role is of type (a), they dont rely too much on FX exotics.
BarCap exotics trading is in interest rates, so exotic berms, CRANs, snowballs, CMS spread options etc will be the things i will be trading.
Let me know what you think now.
any more people with comments/suggestions ?
Do the BarCap trading role. BarCap is one of the best in interest rates and you'll have more control of your own potential. If you are good, you'll be able to command your salary and exit ops easily. And by then, you can screw GS, since hedge funds will be clamoring to get you.
thanks everyone, I accepted BarCap trading role.
Congrats.
fantastic choice, traderboy77.
The GS role really sounded sales-like and furthermore, you said it wasn't focused on FX exotics, which meant you'd be selling spot, forwards and plain vanilla options (nothing overly marketable later on)
the Barcap exotics role will provide you with a knowledge base that not many have. Become really good and you'll be invaluable to them!
jjc1122, the exotic structurer roles typically go to candidates with an engineering or math background, but they also want you to be extremely articulate and well-spoken. Nobody wants a math nerd who struggles when explaning volgamma/vanna to the sales desk. It's a really unique role for a really unique individual. Become a macro-whiz, options pro and confident speaker and that role will be gift-wrapped and handed to you.
CD~
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