COVID outbreak at MS

Morgan Stanley has been mandated to go back to the office and now one of my friends there is saying there's a huge COVID outbreak at the firm. The FSG has been hit pretty hard as well as the Media & Com, and I can imagine many other groups as well have been hit. This is more reason to support banks to postpone BTO until October.

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Comments (153)

  • Summer Associate in Non-profit
Aug 19, 2021 - 7:02pm

yeah, i've heard the same from a buddy of mine. it's crazy they gotta get this under control, or simply postpone when they go back in office

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Aug 19, 2021 - 7:08pm

Yes, they have already asked people to prove vaccination status in order to be able to go into the office. Consensus amongst people at my bank is that really shouldn't be forced to go back in September given the current state of the pandemic. Hopefully the seniors will be receptive

  • Intern in IB - Gen
Aug 19, 2021 - 7:10pm

Well, if they've already done that and this is still happening then hopefully the seniors are listening closely to Legal's opinions and any medical staff/consultants they've hired to make decisions. 

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  • Intern in IB - Gen
Aug 19, 2021 - 7:20pm

Sorry to hear this, and sorry that your friend is ill. I hope they get better soon, and that there are no long term effects from this bout of COVID.

Most Helpful
  • Intern in IB - Gen
Aug 19, 2021 - 7:31pm

My intern colleague this summer told me about how a friend of hers, a healthy young man, had a heart attack from COVID. That's to say nothing of the fact that a lot of people survive just fine from COVID, but end up permanently disabled due to long-COVID which is a huge issue. Finally, even if COVID is unlikely to personally affect you, it affects others who have to interact with you at home, school, work or otherwise. It's about being responsible.

Aug 24, 2021 - 6:21pm

I'm sorry,  I have to disagree with you here.  Without definitive facts, we don't know that covid caused a heart attack. We also don't know what you define as healthy, I have friends who say they are healthy and I know they are not.   

Not to say that Covid has not contributed to many deaths, but realistically if you look at the grand picture,  there is very minimal reason to fear Covid if you are under the age of 30.

Aug 26, 2021 - 9:59am

I heard from a friend who heard from his mum who heard from her hairdresser who's dog's neighbors' auntie's third cousin said... blah blah what a bunch of bs. Long covid is bs. Death rate from covid is less than 1% and even less if you're not a fat shit. Stop spreading fear. 

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Aug 19, 2021 - 7:32pm

Yes, b/c more people than you'd think are immunocompromised. And the virus can mutate and develop resistance to vaccinations (as seen in lambda)

Controversial
  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Aug 19, 2021 - 9:05pm

Facts lmao. In the 15-24 age group you're like 7-8 times more likely to die from a car crash. In the 25-44 age group you're just as likely to die from a car crash as you are from COVID. Sorry the COVID doom porn brigade is slinging you monkey shit. Fear mongerers need to chill and get a hobby.

Edit: Have no clue how I'm getting marked as inaccurate. If you click the 2nd CDC link and scroll to the bottom, click the year column. That should change it to 2020 and make the start date 1/1/2020 and the end date 12/31/2020. Remember we cannot just use the total count because we are using yearly car data not 1 2/3 of a year. There were 614 COVID deaths in the 15-24 age range. Now take the first link. Click data table -> download table -> download table as PDF. It only has the data for up to 2019 but that's close enough as there's not much variability in the last couple years besides a couple hundred swing in either direction.

There were 6,031 motor vehicle for people in the 15-24 age range. That's like 10 times higher than COVID lol. For the year of 2020, there were 2,620 deaths in the 25-34 age range and 6,778 deaths in the 35-44 age range. That is a total of 9,398 COVID deaths for 25-44 age range. Compare that to motor vehicle deaths of 12,204 in the 25-44 age range. You're actually more likely to die from a car accident in that age range in a given year than COVID, and this was without a vaccine in 2020 for the vast majority of the population.

Now maybe you want to argue that deaths for COVID started in mostly March (even though the earliest case was February) and that March to March is the most valid comparison. Okay that's fine. Let's annualize the CDC's figure that runs from 1/1/2020 to 8/14/2021. That's around 1 year 7.5 months or 1.625 years. But let's be conservative and divide by 1.5 years to account for February and january being lower death months in 2020. Essentially we're assuming the data is for 1 year 6 months instead of 1 year 7.5 months. Now let's annualize. Total COVID deaths for 15-24 age range for the entire pandemic so far. 1,078. Annualize that and it's around 719 deaths. Motor vehicle deaths were around 8.4 times more likely then for the 15-24 age range then (6031/719). 

For 25-34 year olds, there are 4,659 deaths so far. 35-44 is 11,863 deaths. So total for 25-44 year old range COVID deaths so far is 16,522. Annualized (divide by 1.5), you get 11,015 deaths. This is below 12,204 motor vehicle deaths for that same age range. Even if you apply a more generous approach for annualizing, COVID deaths would still probably be close enough to motor vehicle deaths. 

I would love to hear a logical and no name calling argument to how you believe what I stated is inaccurate. If it upsets your narrative that driving a car is more risky for people under 50 than COVID, then good. You can stop fear mongering and crying about COVID, especially now that most of the population is vaccinated and Delta is significantly less deadly, even if more contagious. 

Sources: https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/historical-fatality-trends/de… 

                https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9b…

  • Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Aug 19, 2021 - 9:23pm

Is this a joke… first off you need to get a hobby, and you clearly don't work in banking Bc if you did you wouldn't be trolling like that. Secondly you don't know enough about anyone's circumstances to be making such irresponsible statements. Someone I work with had cancer and has a weaker immune system, and the possibility of such people getting covid bc they were forced into the office is frankly ridiculous given it's preventable.

  • VP in IB-M&A
Aug 25, 2021 - 4:56pm

All of you seem married to only the numbers for hospitalization and death.
 

It's well known that severe infections can fuck with your brain and can jack up your risk of dementia, Parkinson's, or cognitive mushiness in later years. There was a sharp and isolated increase in Parkinson's a few decades after the Spanish flu, likely in the very people who spat on precautions and YOLOed in 1918. You can't dice up the brains of Covid patients but many display neurocognitive symptoms, and you don't even need severe symptoms for shit to get fucked up. 
 

All of us are already fucked when it comes to dementia risk because of all of the all nighters and sleep debt we accrue so why the hell would anyone want to add to that?
 

Easy for a (likely non-target) intern to spew but some of us have brains worth preserving. The people who flippantly dismiss the risks tied to Covid are often shallow-minded plebes with nothing to lose imo

  • Associate 1 in IB - Cov
Aug 20, 2021 - 10:56am

MrBarelyComprehensible

I've had 4 friends die from COVID this past year, go fuck yourself. All current or former D-1 athletes too.

Ya this never happened.  I don't know a single person who has even had a fever from covid.  Zero chance this is true.

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Aug 20, 2021 - 12:22pm

Can y'all step back and see what's going on here, this is reminiscent of middle school. OP gives data showing the risk of dying from COVID, guys responds with go fuck yourself, because he (possibly) knows people who died from it and therefore OP, who can't possibly have known those people, is a piece of shit is the implication. Analogize this for a moment: "hey the risks of dying from leukemia for young adults are XX, you probably shouldn't be concerned with the risks given how minimal they are", "fuck you, I know 5 young adults who died from leukemia - you're a piece of shit". How bout this: "Dude, you need to relax about dying from a plane accident, the risks are xx", "fuck you, my dad died in 9/11 on flight 175" implying even though what you said is still true you're still a piece of shit for not taking in to consideration what you couldn't possibly have taken into consideration  Let's all read the worst intent on an anonymous forum, makes sense, right? Because you can especially gauge intent when people are anonymous on a internet forum (sarcasm). Everyone needs to fucking relax when it comes to COVID. No reasonable person who tells people the risks are minimal from COVID is trying to make someone feel bad, they are trying to tell the 99% of cases that don't end tragically that needlessly worrying about something out of your control is not worth the anxiety it will give you. I mean the alternative is needlessly worrying about all the risks given anecdotal evidence, and then wondering why you need so much xanax to sleep...

Tldr: everyone just fucking relax  

  • Prospect in IB - Cov
Aug 21, 2021 - 12:27pm

People choose to believe what they want to believe, and I don't think I can change your mind in anyway. But just to add an extra perspective, my uncle who was 32 tested positive for covid in November. My family didn't worry too much because he was very very healthy with no underlying health issues and had exercised every day of his life, my aunt still brought him to the hospital for extra care though. When the hospital said he had passed away 2 weeks after being hospitalized, we were speechless, I don't think we have fully processed that even when 9 months have passed.

I saw a thread on WSO about a month ago where someone was worrying about meeting up with his interviewers while not fully vaccinated, and the sheer number of people downplaying the severity of the pandemic and disregarding his fears was disappointing, though not at all surprising. I follow WSO, @wallstreetintern, @downtofinance, etc. to be in touch with what's going on and laugh at a meme every once in a while, but they do open wounds every time they mention the pandemic, one guy even said he will only have one dose of the vaccine to trigger people. Guess what? I'm triggered :) We are all strangers on the Internet, but shit does hit close to home to more people than we think...

Aug 21, 2021 - 1:44pm

Did they find an underlying condition in the autopsy? There have been cases of young healthy people who actually had an underlying disorder, but didn't know about it. Not trying to diminish your loss by any means, but just trying to understand what happened. 

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  • Managing Director in PE - Other
Aug 21, 2021 - 9:50pm

Very sorry to hear. Most people on this site have no life experience, they are just parroting nonsense. 

Aug 22, 2021 - 4:44pm

The bigger issue is probably that people don't know what actual underlying health issues they have and don't take them seriously already. All the posts about "healthy xyz person got xyz complication" probably weren't "healthy" to begin with -- and I do think this is a reason to be somewhat cautious because people don't know what issues they actually have. What do you think (though I generally dgaf and am like the only one who doesn't wear a mask in NYC, but am vaxxed)?

Aug 21, 2021 - 1:15pm

I'm pretty confident 99% of the motivation for RTO boils down to:

1. Seniors don't trust that their juniors are productive unless they're directly watching them work the entire workday

2.  It gets the higher-ups' dicks hard to watch their minions scurry around doing their bidding all day. Why bother grinding your whole life for that corner office if you can't flex on the plebs once you have it? 

3. Banking is an extremely conservative industry with a ton of BS for which the only real justification is "this is how we've always done it". I'm sure lots of senior members of banks think WFH is some horrible perversion of the "correct" office culture, which is having analysts and associates grind in the office until past midnight every day. If there aren't pale, sickly little gremlins scurrying around at 2am in their office doing their bidding, something is horribly wrong with the world. 

  • Prospect in IB - Gen
Aug 19, 2021 - 9:20pm

I understand that many of you enjoy WFH for its obvious benefits. Are the complaints in this post more directed at the fact that you don't want to go back to the office, or that you're legitimately scared of COVID? I'm not sure if I can believe that 20 to 30 years are scared about their health when it comes to COVID, especially if one is vaccinated. There is absolutely no risk of hospitalization or death if you have been vaccinated or were previously infected. It was already extremely low for those under 50 when unvaccinated and with vaccine or natural immunity, it's close to zero as you can get. Not sure if possibly getting the common cold can be used as an excuse to not go back to work in person. If it's more about getting grilled in a shitty environment in person, then that's valid and makes sense. Seems like COVID is continuing to be used as a scapegoat though

Aug 20, 2021 - 12:19am

I feel like they should just continue to stay at home Bc there is no benefit at this point to going back. While you may not be as likely to get extremely sick if your vaccinated a lot of people's mental health may be effected, making them less productive. Eventually, everyone should go back to the office, but definitely not in September. 

  • Associate 1 in PE - LBOs
Aug 20, 2021 - 1:02am

We're getting a mix of millenials and Gen Z's coming across, which is kind of an unfortunate mix. You have a group of young, a bit rambunctious, okay savvy juniors as well as Tik-Tokers that grew up on iPads and tech being available at the touch of a button. 

  • Associate 2 in IB-M&A
Aug 20, 2021 - 1:40pm

the irony of this comment complaining that junior bankers are asking for not just a weekend but a HOLIDAY weekend off of work says everything someone needs to know about the industry. bonus points that the holiday is literally to recognize hard working laborers lmao

  • Analyst 1 in CorpFin
Aug 20, 2021 - 4:31pm

Sounds like a win win tbh. They get a weekend off to let loose. Then, they get delta outside the office (reduced liability and chance of transmission to vulnerable seniors) and have fresh immunity for RTO.

Aug 20, 2021 - 3:09am

It's interesting given MS and GS were so dead set on going back to the office and imo for all the right reasons, flexibility aside. But as someone who was on my bank's committee helping contemplate our RTW situation, it quite frankly came across as brazen to dump all employees back in the office as soon as public restrictions were lifted. I know there was no malicious intent or anything like that but with the delta variant spreading across EU and Asia when NY released it's covid restrictions, it seems like a pretty nearsighted decision on their part. Especially with David Solomon and James Gorman taking an outspoken stance to whenever people questioned their haste to return to the office.

I'll say from when they forced people to return to office, it probably took 2-3 weeks for the delta variant to gain headline traction in NY at least. So I'll be interested to see how they handle this going forward, especially as they set a precedent for banning non-vax individuals once word about delta started gaining traction.

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  • Analyst 2 in IB - Cov
Aug 20, 2021 - 1:17pm

Have heard the same of FSG and significant outbreaks across S&T

Aug 20, 2021 - 4:25pm

To all the work from home homies - do you not feel like your career is being held back by wfh? Guess it doesn't really matter if IB is just a resume box check for PE which is a check for CM (Carmax gets its own abbrev. now that it's on "the path").

Just think it's funny with all the posts about how wfh is so terrible because there's no separation of work/life, then there seems to be as much of not more angst when there's a post about RTO. 
 

Personally when I went to wfh I fucking hated it because I was in a role where I relied a lot on other groups, had to document a lot of shit, found the loss of hallway communication to be quite a pita. Similarly had next to no verbal interaction with my boss. Would be one thing if you're arguing from an MD's perspective cause they can just lean on their fee generation as their worth, but when you fix slides all day I'd think the chance to do a little office politicking would be welcomed.

Trust me it takes effort from seniors to get a feel for who on the team is worth a shit and I promise you they aren't expending that extra energy to facilitate that happening through zoom.

  • 7
Aug 20, 2021 - 5:48pm

As someone switching into S&T from BO I'm experiencing a tension between a strong preference for working from home (mostly to avoid the commute) and being able to operate at 150% efficiency, learn at an accelerated pace and network with seniors better in person. If I lived very close to the office it'd be a no brainer. 

Aug 20, 2021 - 6:21pm

Ya don't get me wrong as someone who had an 1.5hr commute before pandemic that part sucks but getting out of the house, efficiency of work, plus career benefits way outweigh the joy of rolling out of bed at 7:59 and logging in. Kind of depressing tbh the whole wfh thing is like the matrix, just do nothing all day while glued to a machine 

  • 2
Aug 20, 2021 - 6:03pm

Masks?  Check.  "Vaccinated"?  Check.  Virulent disease?  Check.

What's wrong with this equation?

I truly feel sorry for those of you who have to go back to the office, jump through all those useless (and dangerous?) hoops to end up exactly where you were 12 months ago.

It is like watching a slow train wreck from afar, knowing what is being proposed wont work.

I feel saddened and pissed off by this outcome for all you folks being forced to do this.

I am truly sorry.

Namaste.

D.O.U.G.

  • 2
  • 1
Aug 21, 2021 - 1:59pm

Hard to see a scenario where everyone isn't exposed to this coronavirus at some point in their lives. It's extremely difficult to impossible to actually eliminate highly transmissible respiratory viruses that have a decently long incubation period / low ish fatality rate. This is likely to become endemic to the human population. 
 

People should get vaccinated to significantly reduce severe outcomes. 
 

I am not quite sure what vulnerable people should / will be able to do. It's possible this continues to kill some multiple of flu deaths indefinitely each year. 

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  • 3
Aug 21, 2021 - 4:32pm

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Cov
Aug 25, 2021 - 1:19pm

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