Did anyone here put themselves through college?

hopingtobreakin's picture
Rank: Baboon | 158

I was speaking to some recent grad friends of mine and one commented, that no college kids put themselves through school b/c parents pay for everything. My response, immediate b.s. I'm inclined to think "most" students (I prefer to call them kids) don't but a few do.

Here is my criterion for putting yourself through college. If your parents pay for ANY of these expenses, you didn't put yourself through IMO because these tend to be major life expenses (my opinions).

-Tuition
-Housing
-Food
-Transportation

Also, if you wouldn't mind sharing upon graduation did you get a role that you wanted in a city you wanted? Just curious how personal backgrounds impacted people's abilities to land jobs in finance.

Quick background for me: Worked 30 hours a week interning + working while a full time student, graduated 3 years, full scholarship, paid for housing/food/all living expenses myself & work as an analyst at a HF (1st job out of school).

Comments (172)

May 27, 2013

I'm starting senior year in August. I paid off my tuition last year and have been putting away the rest. I live with my mom, although I moved out for 6 months when I was 17, but I gave her a year's worth of paychecks.

I've been working since 15. I've worked as a caddy, barista, baker, at Borders, at Dairy Queen, at Vector Marketing. I'm probably forgetting a few.

When I was 17, I got a job as an optician. I worked as an optician and a lab technician at three different opticals until I was 20 and tuition was paid for. One of the opticals in which I worked was small and for a few months, the optometrist and I were the only ones working there because everyone had quit. Well, she wasn't employed; she was independent. But I was working about 70 hours, 30 of which were overtime, and averaging like $35/hour with commissions.

I also did my first two years at a CC and saved some money while working. And my school is pretty shit and very inexpensive.

One of the opticals was dropping Luxottica, which manufactures Ray-Bans, so I was able to buy a couple hundred sunglass and Rx frames very cheaply. I sell them on Ebay now for like 300% profit and make about $2k a month doing that (selling limits).
Made a couple grand buying and re-selling Air Heads in junior high. It all adds up. About to start trading what I have saved.

May 27, 2013
Little Engine Would:

I'm starting senior year in August. I paid off my tuition last year and have been putting away the rest. I live with my mom, although I moved out for 6 months when I was 17, but I gave her a year's worth of paychecks.

I've been working since 15. I've worked as a caddy, barista, baker, at Borders, at Dairy Queen, at Vector Marketing. I'm probably forgetting a few.

When I was 17, I got a job as an optician. I worked as an optician and a lab technician at three different opticals until I was 20 and tuition was paid for. One of the opticals in which I worked was small and for a few months, the optometrist and I were the only ones working there because everyone had quit. Well, she wasn't employed; she was independent. But I was working about 70 hours, 30 of which were overtime, and averaging like $35/hour with commissions.

I also did my first two years at a CC and saved some money while working. And my school is pretty shit and very inexpensive.

One of the opticals was dropping Luxottica, which manufactures Ray-Bans, so I was able to buy a couple hundred sunglass and Rx frames very cheaply. I sell them on Ebay now for like 300% profit and make about $2k a month doing that (selling limits).
Made a couple grand buying and re-selling Air Heads in junior high. It all adds up. About to start trading what I have saved.

I got lots of respect for stories like this. Props.

    • 1
May 27, 2013

Oh, and I know plenty of kids who have put themselves through school 100%.

May 27, 2013

No parent help. GI Bill and generous scholarships.

May 27, 2013
SureThing:

No parent help. GI Bill and generous scholarships.

Thanks for your service.

May 27, 2013

No parent help is a shitty situation from a productivity/economic standpoint since you will earn significantly lower wages before you have that degree. You want to minimize your time earning low wages and maximize your time earning high wages. You will also have to take longer to graduate when working 30+ hours/week making $8-12/hr. Best option is to get done with school as fast as possible so that you earn that higher wage. Paying their own way through teaches responsibility if the person hasn't already learned that, but I think parents who expect their 18 year old to pay for college, food, transportation are terrible parents who are knocking years off of their kids' productivity levels. In fact, I really think it's just a cop-out for POS parents who want that money for themselves rather than helping their son or daughter get the best start they can in life - which any parent should want above their own comfort.

I respect it when people really put themselves through but I pity them more. Kids who work hard to put themselves through school probably would have worked just as hard if their parents had been helping. It's not like it's 30 years ago when college was cheap. Somebody who pays their way through a well-regarded (read: expensive) school making chump change is going to start out behind equally, or even less, hard-working kids who had parental help. Fact. They're busting their asses but will never be as successful as they would have.

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we're in like a dirty shirt.

    • 2
May 28, 2013
Grouse:

No parent help is a shitty situation from a productivity/economic standpoint since you will earn significantly lower wages before you have that degree. You want to minimize your time earning low wages and maximize your time earning high wages. You will also have to take longer to graduate when working 30+ hours/week making $8-12/hr. Best option is to get done with school as fast as possible so that you earn that higher wage. Paying their own way through teaches responsibility if the person hasn't already learned that, but I think parents who expect their 18 year old to pay for college, food, transportation are terrible parents who are knocking years off of their kids' productivity levels. In fact, I really think it's just a cop-out for POS parents who want that money for themselves rather than helping their son or daughter get the best start they can in life - which any parent should want above their own comfort.

I respect it when people really put themselves through but I pity them more. Kids who work hard to put themselves through school probably would have worked just as hard if their parents had been helping. It's not like it's 30 years ago when college was cheap. Somebody who pays their way through a well-regarded (read: expensive) school making chump change is going to start out behind equally, or even less, hard-working kids who had parental help. Fact. They're busting their asses but will never be as successful as they would have.

I'm probably misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're implying that all parents have that option. I didn't work 70 hour weeks while taking 5 classes and watching my brother to teach myself responsibility. But I honestly don't regret that I had to do that because it did instill a certain drive in me.

I've also fucked up countless times in other areas of my life, but I honestly can't say that I have any regrets because fucking up was the best way for me to learn lessons

I didn't learn much from my mistakes at all until I was almost 18. I'll be 21 soon and I'm trying to get to the point where I learn from others' mistakes; it's hard to do.

May 28, 2013
Little Engine Would:

I'm probably misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're implying that all parents have that option. I didn't work 70 hour weeks while taking 5 classes and watching my brother to teach myself responsibility. But I honestly don't regret that I had to do that because it did instill a certain drive in me.

I've also fucked up countless times in other areas of my life, but I honestly can't say that I have any regrets because fucking up was the best way for me to learn lessons

I didn't learn much from my mistakes at all until I was almost 18. I'll be 21 soon and I'm trying to get to the point where I learn from others' mistakes; it's hard to do.

SirTradesaLot:

You make it sound like every parent is deciding between buying a yacht or picking up some college bills for their kids. Your conclusion: Poor people suck. Thanks for the insight.

Many parents can afford to help their kids through school, or can at least get a loan to do so, and still don't. I am saying that the excuse some parents spout about "building character" as the reason for not helping their kids pay for college is them BSing so that they don't have to admit they're choosing themselves over their kids.

I didn't make it sound like every parent is deciding between a ...yacht or...college bills for their kids. Yes, there are parents out there who legitimately can't help. Still, though, those parents chose satisfying themselves over providing for their kids ~18 years ago. Is that any less selfish than the parents who are selfish in the here and now?

My conclusion: You're responsible for not handicapping your kids, regardless of the effect on you. Whether you fail or succeed at that is what determines whether you are a good parent.

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we're in like a dirty shirt.

    • 1
May 28, 2013
Grouse:

Paying their own way through teaches responsibility if the person hasn't already learned that, but I think parents who expect their 18 year old to pay for college, food, transportation are terrible parents who are knocking years off of their kids' productivity levels.

Totally agree. I managed to take several AP and community college classes (free) while in high school for credits reducing my time in college but those hours get to you. It objectively takes a huge hit on your GPA and there is no way around it. You definitely spend less time partying/having fun/networking/sleeping & are always working/studying. Basically ruins some grad school options. That being said - that's life.

May 28, 2013
hopingtobreakin:
Grouse:

Paying their own way through teaches responsibility if the person hasn't already learned that, but I think parents who expect their 18 year old to pay for college, food, transportation are terrible parents who are knocking years off of their kids' productivity levels.

Totally agree. I managed to take several AP and community college classes (free) while in high school for credits reducing my time in college but those hours get to you. It objectively takes a huge hit on your GPA and there is no way around it. You definitely spend less time partying/having fun/networking/sleeping & are always working/studying. Basically ruins some grad school options. That being said - that's life.

I know several people who had to do this. One got a D1 sports scholarship (that he had been gunning for ever since the life event that put him in that position), one did ROTC, one got a very generous financial aid package from an Ivy (was a minority, which may have helped) and the last went to a public ivy and graduated in 2.5 years by using AP/community college credits and taking a crazy courseload. Have a lot of respect for all of these guys, but they are all motivated by making sure their kids never have to do the same things they did to get an education.

May 28, 2013
Grouse:

No parent help is a shitty situation from a productivity/economic standpoint since you will earn significantly lower wages before you have that degree. You want to minimize your time earning low wages and maximize your time earning high wages. You will also have to take longer to graduate when working 30+ hours/week making $8-12/hr. Best option is to get done with school as fast as possible so that you earn that higher wage. Paying their own way through teaches responsibility if the person hasn't already learned that, but I think parents who expect their 18 year old to pay for college, food, transportation are terrible parents who are knocking years off of their kids' productivity levels. In fact, I really think it's just a cop-out for POS parents who want that money for themselves rather than helping their son or daughter get the best start they can in life - which any parent should want above their own comfort.

I respect it when people really put themselves through but I pity them more. Kids who work hard to put themselves through school probably would have worked just as hard if their parents had been helping. It's not like it's 30 years ago when college was cheap. Somebody who pays their way through a well-regarded (read: expensive) school making chump change is going to start out behind equally, or even less, hard-working kids who had parental help. Fact. They're busting their asses but will never be as successful as they would have.

You make it sound like every parent is deciding between buying a yacht or picking up some college bills for their kids. Your conclusion: Poor people suck. Thanks for the insight.

    • 1
May 28, 2013
Grouse:

Paying their own way through teaches responsibility if the person hasn't already learned that, but I think parents who expect their 18 year old to pay for college, food, transportation are terrible parents who are knocking years off of their kids' productivity levels. In fact, I really think it's just a cop-out for POS parents who want that money for themselves rather than helping their son or daughter get the best start they can in life - which any parent should want above their own comfort.

Some of your points were fair, but this simply doesn't apply generally. For some/many parents, it's not a choice.

Also, paying one's own way through school isn't without value. Of course it's less than ideal. But it provides grounding/perspective, an ability to run lean/live simply, and for me, a big chip on the shoulder.

May 28, 2013
Grouse:

No parent help is a shitty situation from a productivity/economic standpoint since you will earn significantly lower wages before you have that degree. You want to minimize your time earning low wages and maximize your time earning high wages. You will also have to take longer to graduate when working 30+ hours/week making $8-12/hr. Best option is to get done with school as fast as possible so that you earn that higher wage. Paying their own way through teaches responsibility if the person hasn't already learned that, but I think parents who expect their 18 year old to pay for college, food, transportation are terrible parents who are knocking years off of their kids' productivity levels. In fact, I really think it's just a cop-out for POS parents who want that money for themselves rather than helping their son or daughter get the best start they can in life - which any parent should want above their own comfort.

I respect it when people really put themselves through but I pity them more. Kids who work hard to put themselves through school probably would have worked just as hard if their parents had been helping. It's not like it's 30 years ago when college was cheap. Somebody who pays their way through a well-regarded (read: expensive) school making chump change is going to start out behind equally, or even less, hard-working kids who had parental help. Fact. They're busting their asses but will never be as successful as they would have.

This was my experience. I came to school knowing I'd have to bear the financial burden myself, and my private university was not generous with financial aid (despite strong stats). I got a job frosh fall, and my grades plummeted. Acclimating to college is stressful enough; add the burden of a job (an hourly-rate one at that) on top of that and it's not a pretty picture.

I'm making no excuses for myself, but the entire thing really fucked with me. When you see kids around you getting a 3.8 with four classes and some masturbatory extracurriculars, it's a real wake-up moment when you realize your 3.2 with six classes and 20 hours of work a week isn't doing you any favors. The insult on top of that injury is when you realize the 20 hours of work you kill yourself with only nets you $300.

Who this experience ended up making me and how it has shaped my ideology I wouldn't trade for the would. It put the fire in my belly that let me get my first proper internship at an amazing bank, led me to crush it when I was there, 'win friends and influence people' in social circles entirely foreign and unfamiliar, and start to reverse my academic and social woes on campus. Unfortunately that last bit came too little/too late, and consequently, I've really shot myself in the foot for grad school apps and buy-side recruiting. I know the intelligence isn't lacking, I wouldn't have been able to perform at the level I did in the office or knock the GMAT out of the park like I have, but the extenuating factors definitely weighed me down.

Looking back though, I feel that it made me so much more of a man; where I used to resent how it's forced me to be different from so many of my peers, I now appreciate it dearly. That being said, it sure would've been nice to goof off for four years with less worries, more money in my pocket, as much time as I wanted, and the freedom to go places, see things, meet people, and study as much as I wanted.

May 28, 2013
Grouse:

Paying their own way through teaches responsibility if the person hasn't already learned that, but I think parents who expect their 18 year old to pay for college, food, transportation are terrible parents who are knocking years off of their kids' productivity levels. In fact, I really think it's just a cop-out for POS parents who want that money for themselves rather than helping their son or daughter get the best start they can in life - which any parent should want above their own comfort.

May 28, 2013
Grouse:

No parent help is a shitty situation from a productivity/economic standpoint since you will earn significantly lower wages before you have that degree. You want to minimize your time earning low wages and maximize your time earning high wages. You will also have to take longer to graduate when working 30+ hours/week making $8-12/hr. Best option is to get done with school as fast as possible so that you earn that higher wage. Paying their own way through teaches responsibility if the person hasn't already learned that, but I think parents who expect their 18 year old to pay for college, food, transportation are terrible parents who are knocking years off of their kids' productivity levels. In fact, I really think it's just a cop-out for POS parents who want that money for themselves rather than helping their son or daughter get the best start they can in life - which any parent should want above their own comfort.

I respect it when people really put themselves through but I pity them more. Kids who work hard to put themselves through school probably would have worked just as hard if their parents had been helping. It's not like it's 30 years ago when college was cheap. Somebody who pays their way through a well-regarded (read: expensive) school making chump change is going to start out behind equally, or even less, hard-working kids who had parental help. Fact. They're busting their asses but will never be as successful as they would have.

Some of the shit you say is ridiculous. You sound like a real douchecanoe

May 28, 2013
txjustin:
Grouse:

No parent help is a shitty situation from a productivity/economic standpoint since you will earn significantly lower wages before you have that degree. You want to minimize your time earning low wages and maximize your time earning high wages. You will also have to take longer to graduate when working 30+ hours/week making $8-12/hr. Best option is to get done with school as fast as possible so that you earn that higher wage. Paying their own way through teaches responsibility if the person hasn't already learned that, but I think parents who expect their 18 year old to pay for college, food, transportation are terrible parents who are knocking years off of their kids' productivity levels. In fact, I really think it's just a cop-out for POS parents who want that money for themselves rather than helping their son or daughter get the best start they can in life - which any parent should want above their own comfort.
I respect it when people really put themselves through but I pity them more. Kids who work hard to put themselves through school probably would have worked just as hard if their parents had been helping. It's not like it's 30 years ago when college was cheap. Somebody who pays their way through a well-regarded (read: expensive) school making chump change is going to start out behind equally, or even less, hard-working kids who had parental help. Fact. They're busting their asses but will never be as successful as they would have.

Some of the shit you say is ridiculous. You sound like a real douchecanoe

douchecanoe... classic!

May 28, 2013
txjustin:
Grouse:

No parent help is a shitty situation from a productivity/economic standpoint since you will earn significantly lower wages before you have that degree. You want to minimize your time earning low wages and maximize your time earning high wages. You will also have to take longer to graduate when working 30+ hours/week making $8-12/hr. Best option is to get done with school as fast as possible so that you earn that higher wage. Paying their own way through teaches responsibility if the person hasn't already learned that, but I think parents who expect their 18 year old to pay for college, food, transportation are terrible parents who are knocking years off of their kids' productivity levels. In fact, I really think it's just a cop-out for POS parents who want that money for themselves rather than helping their son or daughter get the best start they can in life - which any parent should want above their own comfort.
I respect it when people really put themselves through but I pity them more. Kids who work hard to put themselves through school probably would have worked just as hard if their parents had been helping. It's not like it's 30 years ago when college was cheap. Somebody who pays their way through a well-regarded (read: expensive) school making chump change is going to start out behind equally, or even less, hard-working kids who had parental help. Fact. They're busting their asses but will never be as successful as they would have.

Some of the shit you say is ridiculous. You sound like a real douchecanoe

Maybe, but he does make a few good points.

While I don't plan to spoil my (right now nonexistent) kids, I sure as hell am going to make certain things "easier" for them (by living in a nice neighborhood where they're surrounded by other bright kids, by stressing the importance of curiosity and academic achievement, etc.).

May 28, 2013

A good friend had parents that didn't pay for shit (lower income) and even for them the refusal seemed like bullshit. This is America, you can finance your groceries and purses. He was accepted to a much better public school but had to choose a lessor school because of a better aid package. He had to take 15 hours and keep a 3.5 for his best scholarship, while working 30-35 hours per week. I hated seeing it. He got burnt out after 5 semesters and is stuck in the "I'll go back one day" phase. Plus, this isn't 20 years ago. Despite working, he still had a couple k in loans.

Speaking from a relative standpoint, in the US the avg. person needs to be educated or highly trained. If your parents are broke but still have two crabby jobs. They can afford to pay for a piece of the overall cost over 10 years. Putting that responsibility completely on your kid is ridiculous. My parents are broke (my starting salary is more than they make combined) yet they spoke with a planner. At 17, they told me an outright number. XYZ is what we can realistically afford. You don't owe your kid diamonds and furs, but you owe them your relative support. Plain and simple.

May 28, 2013
dereka2013:

A good friend had parents that didn't pay for shit (lower income) and even for them the refusal seemed like bullshit. This is America, you can finance your groceries and purses. He was accepted to a much better public school but had to choose a lessor school because of a better aid package. He had to take 15 hours and keep a 3.5 for his best scholarship, while working 30-35 hours per week. I hated seeing it. He got burnt out after 5 semesters and is stuck in the "I'll go back one day" phase. Plus, this isn't 20 years ago. Despite working, he still had a couple k in loans.

Speaking from a relative standpoint, in the US the avg. person needs to be educated or highly trained. If your parents are broke but still have two crabby jobs. They can afford to pay for a piece of the overall cost over 10 years. Putting that responsibility completely on your kid is ridiculous. My parents are broke (my starting salary is more than they make combined) yet they spoke with a planner. At 17, they told me an outright number. XYZ is what we can realistically afford. You don't owe your kid diamonds and furs, but you owe them your relative support. Plain and simple.

The parents should be working 70 hours per week to afford their child's bills. In state public schools are definitely affordable because of grants and loans. Kids should be kids in college. I also agree, POS parenting.

May 28, 2013

I had to give up my GMAT and Bschool dreams because of my parents. They wanted to use that money to buy a house and in the end they will give that house to me. I was bitter for some time. But then I realised that instead of going through GMAT and Bschool process, let me just excel in my job, learn new skills and move up the ladder. This is life, shit happens. You can't blame parents, nor you should be dependent on your parents.

May 28, 2013
connexion:

I had to give up my GMAT and Bschool dreams because of my parents. They wanted to use that money to buy a house and in the end they will give that house to me. I was bitter for some time. But then I realised that instead of going through GMAT and Bschool process, let me just excel in my job, learn new skills and move up the ladder. This is life, shit happens. You can't blame parents, nor you should be dependent on your parents.

may i ask how the fuck your parents buying a house means you cant take a standardized test and go to b school?

May 28, 2013
shorttheworld:
connexion:

I had to give up my GMAT and Bschool dreams because of my parents. They wanted to use that money to buy a house and in the end they will give that house to me. I was bitter for some time. But then I realised that instead of going through GMAT and Bschool process, let me just excel in my job, learn new skills and move up the ladder. This is life, shit happens. You can't blame parents, nor you should be dependent on your parents.

may i ask how the fuck your parents buying a house means you cant take a standardized test and go to b school?

The first and last sentences of that excerpt are direct contradictions. The rest of it is just shockingly disturbing.

May 29, 2013
shorttheworld:
connexion:

I had to give up my GMAT and Bschool dreams because of my parents. They wanted to use that money to buy a house and in the end they will give that house to me. I was bitter for some time. But then I realised that instead of going through GMAT and Bschool process, let me just excel in my job, learn new skills and move up the ladder. This is life, shit happens. You can't blame parents, nor you should be dependent on your parents.

may i ask how the fuck your parents buying a house means you cant take a standardized test and go to b school?

My parents are going to spend the money which they would have put in my education (including loan) to buy a new house becuase that is what they want to do. For me to take a loan of that amount, no bank will be willing to give since I have nothing to keep as security. So as of this moment I'm not going for the GMAT, but once I have enough resources of my own, I will start it.

May 28, 2013

My dad paid for one semester tuition of CC, a whopping $2k. Besides that I had a football scholarship (not full ride) for a year and then worked full time while attending night school, $18k in student loans I'd like to think I put myself through school.

Side note the 1 semester my dad coverd I passed one class, my theory there is I didn't work as hard since I wasn't paying for it. Yes I was just a kid but the fact of the matter is: I wasn't accountable.

I told my wife I won't pay for the kids college until they walk across the stage with a diploma. There is real value in being responsible for your own way. I understand there are people out there that may feel more accountability for their parents money (i.e. super expectations from Ivy League, etc) but that wasn't me.

May 28, 2013
Cmoss:

My dad paid for one semester tuition of CC, a whopping $2k. Besides that I had a football scholarship (not full ride) for a year and then worked full time while attending night school, $18k in student loans I'd like to think I put myself through school.

Side note the 1 semester my dad coverd I passed one class, my theory there is I didn't work as hard since I wasn't paying for it. Yes I was just a kid but the fact of the matter is: I wasn't accountable.

I told my wife I won't pay for the kids college until they walk across the stage with a diploma. There is real value in being responsible for your own way. I understand there are people out there that may feel more accountability for their parents money (i.e. super expectations from Ivy League, etc) but that wasn't me.

Amen.

May 28, 2013

Parents paid 0%

Half loans, half paid from internships/part time jobs

May 28, 2013

The sense of entitlement in this thread is frankly embarrassing.

May 28, 2013

I paid for school and all expenses through an athletics scholarship. They covered everything, the only downside is I was so involved that I was unable to do any internships in the summer which left me behind in establishing a career. I don't regret it though, I could've gone to a Dartmouth/Cornell/Yale and came out with $80k in debt, but I'm debt free and had much more fulfilling experiences playing at a much higher level of collegiate athletics.

May 28, 2013

Put myself through school by way of scholarship, loans, and working full time while maintaining a normal course load. Parents just weren't financially able to help out much. Really taught me how to hustle and do whatever it takes to make. I wouldn't change my experience one bit.

May 28, 2013

Family income was below the poverty line, so I got need based grants/scholarships and very few loans. Also worked 20 hours a week in my work-study job so I could have some money in my pocket. Not "Putting myself through" in the traditional sense, but I didn't have any family contributions. Extremely grateful for the generous financial aid though. Couldn't have done it without the donors.

May 28, 2013

I lived with my parents throughout college but otherwise paid my own way with a full tuition scholarship, loans, and odd jobs and internships. I would have liked to go to a better college, but the one I chose made the most sense from a financial and personal goals perspective. The perception on WSO that you should always go to the best college you can get into is misplaced because "best" is misdefined as "most prestigious". I define "best" as most value gained for most value sacrificed - i.e. the cheapest college that still gets me to my goals. If my parents would have helped me out but given me the option of the cash equivalent of my tuition, I still would have chosen the school I did.

To weigh in on the Little Engine/Grouse discussion, any difficult circumstance in life builds character, but that doesn't mean you should go around looking for less-than-ideal circumstances. It means you should challenge yourself. Having to pay your way through college is a challenge you are forced to face, not one you choose to take, and I agree that saying you're not going to not help your kids out with college bills because you want to teach responsibility is a bit of a cop out. The reality is that this choice is made because the parents can't afford it, and they use the fact that it does in fact teach responsibility as a bit of an excuse. From that perspective, yes, perfect parents do plan ahead and provide for their kids' education. Most parents don't have the resources or perspective to do so, but that doesn't mean they're bad parents; it just means they're human (and probably don't have a business degree). Many of the perspectives expressed in this thread are very shallow, and will hopefully change once the proponents live a little more in the real world and lose the sense of entitlement.

I hope to pay all my kids' educations in full, but I will have high expectations of them - near-perfect SAT scores and GPA, involvement (and eventually leadership positions) in legit extracurriculars, publications, internships, entrepreneurship, etc. There is more than one way to challenge yourself and learn responsibility.

May 28, 2013

My parents were unable to pay for anything. I worked for a couple of years after high school, and took a maintenance position in a power plant. They had a tuition reimbursement program, so I worked nights and went to school full time during the day (the reimbursement didn't cover 100%, but it made it very manageable). The best benefit was that I ended up graduating with a few years of relevant experience, and now I do financial consulting for the energy industry.

There are other options other than either a rich parent or a lifetime of debt. Could I have gone to a top school and partied and played a major sport using my method? Probably not, but I made a lot out of what I had (and turned my work history and story of determination into a compelling essay which got me a 75% scholarship to B School, where I had a more traditional experience).

One louder.

May 28, 2013

This thread reeks of children with a limited world view.

Many parents struggle to pay for basics or have other children that are younger and need to be taken care of. Students can take on debt of their own or work part time. College has become an "experience" instead of an institution of learning.

I paid my way through school. I don't begrudge my parents nor do I hold anything against people who had their education paid for. But then again I could give a shit what other people think.

What I did take away is that life doesn't hand you shit. If you want to achieve something you have to work for it. And I also learned to keep judgmental opinions to myself.

May 28, 2013

Parents were poor. Pell grant and scholarships along with some 8 hour/wk Federal Work Study was enough to put brother and me in good tracks. Everybody won.

May 28, 2013

The sense of entitlement in this thread is unbelievable.

You kids need a reality check. Seriously... TNA, SirTrades, and the few others who weren't spewing complete drivel, kudos. For the others whining about how life isn't fair and your parents should have done more... give me a break.

Allow me to share something that isn't even wisdom... it's simply common sense. Higher education is not a right. Higher education is a privilege. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but please know that when you spout nonsense that you are also entitled to be wrong.

Your parents would be ashamed to hear you talking this way. You will never understand the sacrifices it takes to be a parent until you become one. I can't fathom it either, but at least I respect what my parents did and I am grateful for it.

Your parents gave birth to you... the fact that you think that you deserve for them to pay for anything other than your basic needs is purely selfish. In addition to sounding incredibly naive, self-centered, and completely removed from reality, when you make such absurd statements you slap not only your parents in the face but the parents of every kid who is totally cared for and loved but whose parents can't provide what you think they should be able to provide for them. With all due respect, who the hell are you to be telling people who do not have a lot of money they should not have kids?

That is literally, one of the most arrogant statements I have ever heard in my life.

See there is this thing called unconditional love that you clearly cannot comprehend because your perception of love obviously has conditions. "You need to pay for my college or you aren't a good parent." Please... Go tell your mother this tonight and look her in the eyes when you do it. See how much pain you cause when you say it because that's the only way it is going to sink in that you are an ungrateful, self-absorbed, child.

My parents didn't pay for my school and they didn't pay any of my siblings' either. Guess what... Everything worked out more than fine. I graduated with ~$50-60k in debt from a state school and I paid off more than 80% of that in 2 years of banking. I worked 2 and sometimes 3 jobs when I was in school and was putting in 40-50 hour weeks and I graduated the equivalent of Magna Cum Laude.

Take your sob story somewhere else... Your parents don't owe you a free ticket to higher education... Gimme a break.

If your parents put food on your table and didn't beat you, then you have it far better than many kids out there so quit whining and focus on what you can control. Stop making excuses. If you have drive and intellect you can get to wherever you want to get to in life, but you're only going to make it harder with your sense of entitlement and lack of gratitude.

Call your parents up tonight and tell them thank you for raising you.

Unbelievable.

May 28, 2013

god i cant wait to be on my panel at the WSO Conference and shatter egos

May 28, 2013
shorttheworld:

god i cant wait to be on my panel at the WSO Conference and shatter egos

The dream is real.

May 28, 2013

Paid for all my college. I had a $10k a year scholarship then I got a job fixing computers for the school that paid room and board. I also worked in the summer full time to have cash during the school year. The rest of the money I needed I took out loans for. My parents just didn't have $15k a year in cash to pay the rest of tuition. We're not poor at all, just regular middle class people. I really feel fine about it. In the 60+ years of my post college life, paying off my loans will be just a small part of all my expenses. I did manage to get a decent job in corporate finance through some connections although not really in a city I had in mind.

May 28, 2013

I'm just glad the normal people showed up. The way this thread started out, I thought >80% of the WSO posters were trust fund babies.

May 28, 2013
Ipso facto:

I'm just glad the normal people showed up. The way this thread started out, I thought >80% of the WSO posters were trust fund babies.

they most likely are. and theyve done everything 'right' and the same their whole life and look like cookie cutter print outs of eachother on paper and thus why they get dinged from b schools and complain about other scapegoats like URMs getting in despite their 'superior stats and BB training' or how 'life is unfair'

sucks

    • 1
May 28, 2013
shorttheworld:
Ipso facto:

I'm just glad the normal people showed up. The way this thread started out, I thought >80% of the WSO posters were trust fund babies.

they most likely are. and theyve done everything 'right' and the same their whole life and look like cookie cutter print outs of eachother on paper and thus why they get dinged from b schools and complain about other scapegoats like URMs getting in despite their 'superior stats and BB training' or how 'life is unfair'

sucks

I don't know. People who do everything "right" generally don't have much trouble getting into business school. All of the M7 schools are chock full of kids who grew up in upper-middle-class neighborhoods, excelled at good high schools, moved on to top-tier undergrad schools, and then worked typical high-profile "tracked" jobs (MBB, BB IBD, etc.).

Interesting, accomplished, non-traditional students are usually the outliers of the business school world, even at places like HBS.

May 28, 2013

I just think casting wide judgement on people based on something that is so subjective is very dangerous.

May 28, 2013

This thread is just so goddamn obnoxious. Half of you I want to punch in the face and I don't even know you.

May 28, 2013
D M:

This thread is just so goddamn obnoxious. Half of you I want to punch in the face and I don't even know you.

That's the upside to this topic: it revealed a lot about some WSO members in just a few posts. Someone please SB rufiolove, ANT, DM, and shorttheworld on my behalf.

Back to the topic, I paid my own way through college and worked myself to the bone in order to make the best circumstances for myself.

May 28, 2013

I put my self through school. Granted, it took 10 years. Somehow i got a job in a small staffing firm and was able to triple my portion of the business. It paid well. I took 6 hours a semester at a non-target here in DC(Think HBCU). My typical day was 7am-5pm work. 5:30-9:30 school. 10pm-2am work emails/school. Repeat the next day. I also had a part-time gig "slangin' suits" on the side at Men's Warehouse. I paid all my own costs with no help from my parents. We grew up way below the poverty line. Everything was on me. I graduated a year ago with no debt other than my cc debt. Wouldn't change it for the world. At times I wish I could have just focused on school(3.0 GPA in Econ) and not worked. Maybe i'd be working in the career I've always wanted. Maybe not. Eh...Them's the breaks.

Christmas trees are beautiful without presents under them.

May 28, 2013

So many of the people in this thread are trapped in their automatic responses that they don't even comprehend much of what I have said. In addition, they are so closed-minded that they assume that I or people who agree with my points are in the crowd of kids who had it easy. Part of being a thoughtful individual is being able to remove yourself from your own experiences in approaching a viewpoint.

Nobody here is a bigger proponent of hard work than I. I made my first $1000 when I was 8 riding my bike across the tracks to the local country club (caddyshack style) and selling used golf balls. This money and all subsequent money went toward paying family bills. I started a pet sitting business when I was 12 that I continued through middle, high school, and college. Beginning in the 8th grade and continuing through my sophomore year of college I worked at a shipping center packing and moving boxes that weighed as much as me (throwing out my back several times before I was 16). Part of my pre-college work experience (but mostly grades, test scores, and athletic achievements) was what got me a full tuition scholarship. This is why I brought up that if you are already a hard-working, go-getting, ambitious kid, then paying your own way through college is simply a waste. It adds time to how long it takes to get the degree while lowering the grades you will be able to make...all while teaching you something - to appreciate hard work - that you already knew.

If some of you didn't appreciate hard work before you had to put yourselves through college, then that's great for you that you now understand and appreciate hard work. However, for people out there that understood the value of hard work before they are 18 year-olds going to college there is no gained-value offsetting the added opportunity costs of lower grades and longer time to completion of the degree.

It's interesting the level of emotions in some of the "arguments" here. While I feel sorry for the human race that so many of you will be shorting your kids when it matters most for their career success (the establishment of work force trajectory), from a realpolitik perspective it makes me very happy that my kids will have less competition.

On a final note, shit happens. Parents aren't prepared to have kids, etc, but they do their best (sometimes) when they do. If that is your parents, like it was mine, understanding that they were irresponsible doesn't mean you don't love them or that you want to hurt them by putting it in their face. I love my folks. I bust my ass in a panic every day worried that I won't be successful soon enough to provide my older-than-typical parents with a great retirement. From an objective standpoint, however, that doesn't mean that the way our parents did kids was the right way or that it is an excuse for us to be unprepared when we pop out that ambitious kid who understands hard work before college and don't need the lesson.

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we're in like a dirty shirt.

    • 1
May 28, 2013
Grouse:

So many of the people in this thread are trapped in their automatic responses that they don't even comprehend much of what I have said. In addition, they are so closed-minded that they assume that I or people who agree with my points are in the crowd of kids who had it easy. Part of being a thoughtful individual is being able to remove yourself from your own experiences in approaching a viewpoint.

Nobody here is a bigger proponent of hard work than I. I made my first $1000 when I was 8 riding my bike across the tracks to the local country club (caddyshack style) and selling used golf balls. This money and all subsequent money went toward paying family bills. I started a pet sitting business when I was 12 that I continued through middle, high school, and college. Beginning in the 8th grade and continuing through my sophomore year of college I worked at a shipping center packing and moving boxes that weighed as much as me (throwing out my back several times before I was 16). Part of my pre-college work experience (but mostly grades, test scores, and athletic achievements) was what got me a full tuition scholarship. This is why I brought up that if you are already a hard-working, go-getting, ambitious kid, then paying your own way through college is simply a waste. It adds time to how long it takes to get the degree while lowering the grades you will be able to make...all while teaching you something - to appreciate hard work - that you already knew.

If some of you didn't appreciate hard work before you had to put yourselves through college, then that's great for you that you now understand and appreciate hard work. However, for people out there that understood the value of hard work before they are 18 year-olds going to college there is no gained-value offsetting the added opportunity costs of lower grades and longer time to completion of the degree.

It's interesting the level of emotions in some of the "arguments" here. While I feel sorry for the human race that so many of you will be shorting your kids when it matters most for their career success (the establishment of work force trajectory), from a realpolitik perspective it makes me very happy that my kids will have less competition.

On a final note, shit happens. Parents aren't prepared to have kids, etc, but they do their best (sometimes) when they do. If that is your parents, like it was mine, understanding that they were irresponsible doesn't mean you don't love them or that you want to hurt them by putting it in their face. I love my folks. I bust my ass in a panic every day worried that I won't be successful soon enough to provide my older-than-typical parents with a great retirement. From an objective standpoint, however, that doesn't mean that the way our parents did kids was the right way or that it is an excuse for us to be unprepared when we pop out that ambitious kid who understands hard work before college and don't need the lesson.

May 28, 2013

I grew up with my grandparents, so financially speaking, money was always "tight" within the family as they had to raise 3 kids. The reason why I went to a "non-target" state school was to save money and make life a little easier on myself and my g-parents (financially speaking). I have worked various jobs since I was 14, and managed to pay for any of the college-related expenses that they couldn't afford throughout my years in school. Most of my college income came from a set of three different internships and a part time job at a local retailer. All of this was challenging, but I stuck to my plan of doing the best I could, and fortunately landed a BB IB FT offer this past fall. Life is good.....

May 28, 2013

@Grouse - Plenty of people have read what you wrote. Because a parent cannot afford to pay for some or all of a college education doesn't make them bad parents. It also doesn't necessarily short change anyone. You are making far too many assumptions and casting blanketed statements.

Also, no need to go into your story. You worked and put yourself through school. Good. Blood and guts doesn't validate your wide sweeping and assumption laden statements. Just because a parent pays for their kid to go to school doesn't mean they have any advantage.

May 28, 2013
TNA:

@Grouse - Plenty of people have read what you wrote. Because a parent cannot afford to pay for some or all of a college education doesn't make them bad parents. It also doesn't necessarily short change anyone. You are making far too many assumptions and casting blanketed statements.

Also, no need to go into your story. You worked and put yourself through school. Good. Blood and guts doesn't validate your wide sweeping and assumption laden statements. Just because a parent pays for their kid to go to school doesn't mean they have any advantage.

That's a pretty distinct advantage.

May 28, 2013
Little Engine Would:
TNA:

@Grouse - Plenty of people have read what you wrote. Because a parent cannot afford to pay for some or all of a college education doesn't make them bad parents. It also doesn't necessarily short change anyone. You are making far too many assumptions and casting blanketed statements.
Also, no need to go into your story. You worked and put yourself through school. Good. Blood and guts doesn't validate your wide sweeping and assumption laden statements. Just because a parent pays for their kid to go to school doesn't mean they have any advantage.

That's a pretty distinct advantage.

What advantage? Career wise a person with student loan debt isn't hampered. Or a person who works part time during school and finishes on time.

I hope people realize that there is more to the world than investment banking, right? I hope you also realize that market swings and the economy have a far bigger career impact than an extra year in college or $30K in debt. Students graduating with $100K in debt during the run up to the RE bubble did better career and salary wise than someone with no debt graduating in this economy.

Any time you make broad statements you open yourself up to being incredibly wrong. This is a perfect case.

May 28, 2013
TNA:

@Grouse - Plenty of people have read what you wrote. Because a parent cannot afford to pay for some or all of a college education doesn't make them bad parents. It also doesn't necessarily short change anyone. You are making far too many assumptions and casting blanketed statements.

Also, no need to go into your story. You worked and put yourself through school. Good. Blood and guts doesn't validate your wide sweeping and assumption laden statements. Just because a parent pays for their kid to go to school doesn't mean they have any advantage.

This.

May 28, 2013
rufiolove:
TNA:

@Grouse - Plenty of people have read what you wrote. Because a parent cannot afford to pay for some or all of a college education doesn't make them bad parents. It also doesn't necessarily short change anyone. You are making far too many assumptions and casting blanketed statements.
Also, no need to go into your story. You worked and put yourself through school. Good. Blood and guts doesn't validate your wide sweeping and assumption laden statements. Just because a parent pays for their kid to go to school doesn't mean they have any advantage.

This.

I said it made them irresponsible parents, which is different than the normative "bad." A parent's duty is to put his/her kids in a position to compete when out on their own according to the competition of the society. Not putting your kids through college is giving them a distinct disadvantage in US society today. 40 years ago it was high school that gave kids a fair shake.

And yes, ceteris paribus, paying for your kids to go to college is probably one of the biggest advantages you can give them today. If you graduate with a $75k debt at 22, your credit is shit. You will not be able to get a car loan if you need one, you will have to get a job ASAP whether it's a good one or not. You will not be able to go to grad school for years, you will drown making your payments on your loan and paying living expenses. That is a farcical statement that having your college paid for is not an advantage. Have you not even been paying attention to how many college grads with loans are defaulting? It's so bad that even Republicans are offering help...

If you had read my posts in detail you would have seen that I said there are exceptions in numerous of my early posts. I gave my own story because people specifically mentioned that people on my side of the fence were "naive," etc in the course of their logic-lite arguments. Giving my story showed that I had lived in their world and that I am able to divorce my thought process from an otherwise self-serving mental model aimed at convincing myself that I am better off for being worse off.

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we're in like a dirty shirt.

    • 1
May 28, 2013

My statement isn't broader. I am also not passing judgement, which you are, hence why the onus is on you, not me.

1) Not paying for college makes parents irresponsible

This is false and assumes that college is the deciding factor. What if parents saved enough to pay for state school and not a private school? What is the bar for responsibility? What if a student had to work part time through school, does that make a parent irresponsible?

Is paying for the college education the delineating factor or is paying for all the trips, spring breaks, living expenses, etc what matters?

2) You are making broad statements, but looking through the lens of this site only.

Most 18 year olds are immature and lack a long term view. One only needs to be on this website for a day to realize how most people have less than a clue. So if a parent doesn't pay full freight for a kid to get a liberal arts degree are they irresponsible? Is the education or the earnings outcome what is important? If a parent pays for a liberal arts degree and the kid is unemployed is that good?

May 28, 2013
TNA:

My statement isn't broader. I am also not passing judgement, which you are, hence why the onus is on you, not me.

1) Not paying for college makes parents irresponsible

This is false and assumes that college is the deciding factor. What if parents saved enough to pay for state school and not a private school? What is the bar for responsibility? What if a student had to work part time through school, does that make a parent irresponsible?

Is paying for the college education the delineating factor or is paying for all the trips, spring breaks, living expenses, etc what matters?

2) You are making broad statements, but looking through the lens of this site only.

Most 18 year olds are immature and lack a long term view. One only needs to be on this website for a day to realize how most people have less than a clue. So if a parent doesn't pay full freight for a kid to get a liberal arts degree are they irresponsible? Is the education or the earnings outcome what is important? If a parent pays for a liberal arts degree and the kid is unemployed is that good?

I never made that argument. That was OP's argument. I think you're confused.

May 28, 2013

Yes, I was replying to a post when you posted, apologies.

May 28, 2013

Jesus Christ some of you have the most fucked up view of life outside of the fucking bubble you live in. My wife and i both paid for our school out of our own pockets. She was an EE/Physics Double major and I was an Econ Major/Fin Minor. That shit was hard. She graduated from Hopkins in 4 1/2. Her scholarship covered everything except room and board. She was a bartender at the Ritz when she wasn't in school. She interned and bartended in the summer. For the people who don't know, room and board at certain schools is like paying full tuition at others. Why the fuck would anyone actually try to discredit the hardwork people put in? You got into HBS on a full ride...Wonderful! Not everyone is as fortunate. All i ask is that people understand that people come from different walks of life. Some people actually have to put in more work than others because of many reasons. I can't tell you that the concrete is hard. I just hope one day you don't have to fall and find out.

Christmas trees are beautiful without presents under them.

May 28, 2013
streetsadream:

Jesus Christ some of you have the most fucked up view of life outside of the fucking bubble you live in. My wife and i both paid for our school out of our own pockets. She was an EE/Physics Double major and I was an Econ Major/Fin Minor. That shit was hard. She graduated from Hopkins in 4 1/2. Her scholarship covered everything except room and board. She was a bartender at the Ritz when she wasn't in school. She interned and bartended in the summer. For the people who don't know, room and board at certain schools is like paying full tuition at others. Why the fuck would anyone actually try to discredit the hardwork people put in? You got into HBS on a full ride...Wonderful! Not everyone is as fortunate. All i ask is that people understand that people come from different walks of life. Some people actually have to put in more work than others because of many reasons. I can't tell you that the concrete is hard. I just hope one day you don't have to fall and find out.

Everybody in this thread agrees with you. The debate is 1) whether it is better or worse for people's careers, over the long term, to have had to go through it your way and 2) whether parents have an obligation to get their kids out the door on the right foot.

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we're in like a dirty shirt.

May 28, 2013
Grouse:
streetsadream:

Jesus Christ some of you have the most fucked up view of life outside of the fucking bubble you live in. My wife and i both paid for our school out of our own pockets. She was an EE/Physics Double major and I was an Econ Major/Fin Minor. That shit was hard. She graduated from Hopkins in 4 1/2. Her scholarship covered everything except room and board. She was a bartender at the Ritz when she wasn't in school. She interned and bartended in the summer. For the people who don't know, room and board at certain schools is like paying full tuition at others. Why the fuck would anyone actually try to discredit the hardwork people put in? You got into HBS on a full ride...Wonderful! Not everyone is as fortunate. All i ask is that people understand that people come from different walks of life. Some people actually have to put in more work than others because of many reasons. I can't tell you that the concrete is hard. I just hope one day you don't have to fall and find out.

Everybody in this thread agrees with you. The debate is 1) whether it is better or worse for people's careers, over the long term, to have had to go through it your way and 2) whether parents have an obligation to get their kids out the door on the right foot.

1) It is most certainly better to not have had to pay it by yourself

2) I don't necessarily think they have an "obligation" to pay for a fancy college, especially not if the kid is mediocre. I certainly plan to give my kids as many advantages as I can some day, however, especially since (I hope) they'll have good heads on their shoulders (they should know that there's no way I'd pay $50k+/year for them to attend shit-tier private colleges).

May 28, 2013

Cool. I got lost somewhere in the debate.

1. It depends on the individual. Only a parent can judge that. If i was a parent and I had a kid who "RAGED" all the time. There is a 99% percent chance that i would not "invest" in that child's education because there is a 100% chance that i'll lose out on my investment. The kid would have to show me things are changing first by going to a community college and holding down a p/t time. I'd invest in their community college only because if the kid doesn't change, i'm out 6k instead of 60k.

2. Yes, I do believe that parents do have an obligation, within reason, to get their kids out the door on the right foot. I do believe in the value of education but i do not believe in a parent or student taking on 100k+ in debt to obtain it. Investing 100k at a top tier school for your kid to get a degree in Theology is not sound for either party.I'd feel that i am doing my kid a huge disservice by having them think that being 60-100k in debt at 22 won't impact their life for years to come. i think that me putting my child out the door on the right foot has more to do with being a parent and educating my kid about the job market trends, degree programs they may be interested in, etc...then it does with paying for their education.

I want my kids to be better than me, and i want their kids to be better than them. I have no problem making an investment in my kid's future. Just not going to take a second mortgage out to do it.

Christmas trees are beautiful without presents under them.

May 28, 2013

To TNA:

I believe it is your arguments that are primarily assumption based. We are proceeding on a ceteris paribus basis precisely because there are so many possible different circumstances. You are using multiple assumptions on what a kid might or might do to say that our single assumption - that everything else equal a college degree and a college degree paid for by parents is an advantage to a young person - is wrong.

Yes there are assumptions you can make about what might or might now happen with this or that degree from this or that college at this or that time. But this is simply circumscribing the core of the argument, essentially the same as the Central Limit Theorem, that if the population size is large enough it will ultimately have a normal distribution.

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we're in like a dirty shirt.

May 28, 2013

1) Having student loans would actually provide a base of credit. Or is that something else your parents should provide to you?

2) Student debt does not prevent someone from getting an IB job. Doesn't make you an all-star or a dud. Doesn't mean you'll get the Associate promotion or go into PE. It is simply a financial benefit.

3) I am not making assumptions. I am simply providing different scenarios that illustrate your blanket statement as being incorrect.

I love how the OP was simply looking to hear stories about people who bootstrapped themselves and you come in talking about parents being irresponsible for not paying for college. As if anyone can predict the future 18 years out.

I agree about parental responsibility, but I disagree with your definition of what qualifies. I also fail to see any advantage other than it being nice to have more disposable income. Student loans suck because it is money that you cannot otherwise save or piss away. That being said, increased savings doesn't impact your career trajectory.

I'm sorry, but the biggest thing hampering today's youth is this eternal childhood. Parents wiping your ass all the way until your 22 and beyond. How about you take charge of your life and stop worrying about who pays for what. My parents didn't pay for my undergrad as I received nearly a full scholarship. I suppose they are both irresponsible and responsible, existing in this nether region lol.

May 28, 2013
TNA:

I'm sorry, but the biggest thing hampering today's youth is this eternal childhood. Parents wiping your ass all the way until your 22 and beyond. How about you take charge of your life and stop worrying about who pays for what. My parents didn't pay for my undergrad as I received nearly a full scholarship. I suppose they are both irresponsible and responsible, existing in this nether region lol.

If you were financially comfortable, and your son was accepted to a very respectable school without any financial aid (the Ivies don't give any based on merit), would you pay for him to attend?

May 28, 2013
holla_back:
TNA:

I'm sorry, but the biggest thing hampering today's youth is this eternal childhood. Parents wiping your ass all the way until your 22 and beyond. How about you take charge of your life and stop worrying about who pays for what. My parents didn't pay for my undergrad as I received nearly a full scholarship. I suppose they are both irresponsible and responsible, existing in this nether region lol.

If you were financially comfortable, and your son was accepted to a very respectable school without any financial aid (the Ivies don't give any based on merit), would you pay for him to attend?

If I had the money I would most likely finance things to an extent, no doubt. I am also kind of an asshole and wouldn't waste my money if the kid wanted to study art.

You know what, I don't know. It would depend on what the child wanted to study, how mature they were, how financially secure I was and how many other kids I had. If the kid was smart, but immature I might send them to a lesser school or make them attend a local school so I could monitor things. I might send them to an Ivy, but watch over them like a hawk. Maybe pay for a lesser school if I thought they didn't need the Ivy education.

But ultimately I would make the decision. Why? Cause it is my money and I don't owe anyone anything. I'd probably respect the child more if he looked me in the eye, told me to fuck off and went to the school of their choice.

If that happened then I would know I raised a good kid instead of some supplicant bitch.

May 28, 2013
TNA:

1) Having student loans would actually provide a base of credit. Or is that something else your parents should provide to you?

2) Student debt does not prevent someone from getting an IB job. Doesn't make you an all-star or a dud. Doesn't mean you'll get the Associate promotion or go into PE. It is simply a financial benefit.

3) I am not making assumptions. I am simply providing different scenarios that illustrate your blanket statement as being incorrect.

I love how the OP was simply looking to hear stories about people who bootstrapped themselves and you come in talking about parents being irresponsible for not paying for college. As if anyone can predict the future 18 years out.

I agree about parental responsibility, but I disagree with your definition of what qualifies. I also fail to see any advantage other than it being nice to have more disposable income. Student loans suck because it is money that you cannot otherwise save or piss away. That being said, increased savings doesn't impact your career trajectory.

I'm sorry, but the biggest thing hampering today's youth is this eternal childhood. Parents wiping your ass all the way until your 22 and beyond. How about you take charge of your life and stop worrying about who pays for what. My parents didn't pay for my undergrad as I received nearly a full scholarship. I suppose they are both irresponsible and responsible, existing in this nether region lol.

1. So does being an authorized user on a CC. There is more than one way to build credit. I'd take the authorized user or student loan debt any day.

2.You and i both have no debt when it comes to school. Difference is I, along with the rest of the world, dont view student loan debt as a "financial benefit."

3. ...

4. True

5. you're just saying shit to try to validate your point. Having more disposable income is more than being "nice." It does allow people to rest easy. Student loans suck because that's money one is giving away instead of utilizing to build wealth, see the world, buy a home, etc... Increased savings does impact your career trajectory. Many people, i'm sure, would love to move to NYC and work in whatever field. Savings plays a part. I've heard many say... I gotta save up and in two years, i'm moving to (insert city).

6. That statement maybe true within your "circle." Congrats on the scholarship. Sincerely! And no your parents aren't irresponsible. They probably still send you carepackages and shit in the mail. You're Mommy and Daddy's "Big Boy!"

Christmas trees are beautiful without presents under them.

May 28, 2013

I'm really surprised this thread didn't turn into a shit show or anything.

May 28, 2013

Where did I say student loan debt is a financial benefit? I said there is a different between career benefit and financial benefit. Having no debt benefits one financially, not career wise. It is simply additional savings or spending money. Nothing more, nothing less.

Plenty of other ways to build credit. But having student loan is not necessarily a negative. Nor is providing credit the determiner of what makes a parent responsible. Nor is it particularly germane to this offshoot discussion we are all having.

You are stretching now. Plenty of people living in NYC with student loan debt. And NYC isn't the only place to start a career.

Student loans are a financial benefit, not a career benefit.

6. Not sure what "circle" you are referring to. All I know is this post, as most others, are full of people whining about something, debating whether a girl is a whore or not, debating which clothes makes someone feel/look/act important, etc. Endless dick measuring and inferiority complex. One only has to look at the level of butt hurt that is invoked when the NFL player got into HBS and people cried because his GMAT was less than theirs to quickly realize the limited world view many on this site have.

Being a child at the age of 22 is an issue and a real career limiter. Relationship wise, career wise and personality wise. As for my parents being proud, I suppose they are. Not sure why. I am proud of my accomplishments, not theirs. They should be proud they instilled hard work and toughness in their child, something you can't learn in school or pay for.

That has benefited me over my career far more than anything I learned in class.

May 28, 2013
TNA:

Where did I say student loan debt is a financial benefit? I said there is a different between career benefit and financial benefit. Having no debt benefits one financially, not career wise. It is simply additional savings or spending money. Nothing more, nothing less.

Plenty of other ways to build credit. But having student loan is not necessarily a negative. Nor is providing credit the determiner of what makes a parent responsible. Nor is it particularly germane to this offshoot discussion we are all having.

You are stretching now. Plenty of people living in NYC with student loan debt. And NYC isn't the only place to start a career.

Student loans are a financial benefit, not a career benefit.

6. Not sure what "circle" you are referring to. All I know is this post, as most others, are full of people whining about something, debating whether a girl is a whore or not, debating which clothes makes someone feel/look/act important, etc. Endless dick measuring and inferiority complex. One only has to look at the level of butt hurt that is invoked when the NFL player got into HBS and people cried because his GMAT was less than theirs to quickly realize the limited world view many on this site have.

Being a child at the age of 22 is an issue and a real career limiter. Relationship wise, career wise and personality wise. As for my parents being proud, I suppose they are. Not sure why. I am proud of my accomplishments, not theirs. They should be proud they instilled hard work and toughness in their child, something you can't learn in school or pay for.

That has benefited me over my career far more than anything I learned in class.

1. Talk to the many people, some you may know, who took on this massive debt and then could not find a job in their field let alone a job at all during the crisis. Ask them if they view student loan debt as a "financial benefit." ask the people on this site who have layoffs looming how they view their student loan debt. The only benefit one would have from student loans is writing off part of the interest on their taxes. If you're talking about that, sure.

A parent can't instill hardwork or toughness in their child. Thats something a kid either takes in or doesn't. I'm sure there are plenty of wealthy/middle class/poor people who have and still work their asses off. Their kids don't. Toughness is not something you can't instill either. My dad's tough. I'm tough. My brother, softer than pink cashmere. How do you measure toughness though? I agree that you can't learn those values by going to class. But you damn sure can learn those values when you have pay for it yourself. When you have no safety net underneath you, its amazing what one can accomplish.

I agree that most people whine here. More so than my wife's dog. Hope you weren't referring to me

Christmas trees are beautiful without presents under them.

May 28, 2013
streetsadream:
TNA:

Where did I say student loan debt is a financial benefit? I said there is a different between career benefit and financial benefit. Having no debt benefits one financially, not career wise. It is simply additional savings or spending money. Nothing more, nothing less.
Plenty of other ways to build credit. But having student loan is not necessarily a negative. Nor is providing credit the determiner of what makes a parent responsible. Nor is it particularly germane to this offshoot discussion we are all having.
You are stretching now. Plenty of people living in NYC with student loan debt. And NYC isn't the only place to start a career.
Student loans are a financial benefit, not a career benefit.
6. Not sure what "circle" you are referring to. All I know is this post, as most others, are full of people whining about something, debating whether a girl is a whore or not, debating which clothes makes someone feel/look/act important, etc. Endless dick measuring and inferiority complex. One only has to look at the level of butt hurt that is invoked when the NFL player got into HBS and people cried because his GMAT was less than theirs to quickly realize the limited world view many on this site have.
Being a child at the age of 22 is an issue and a real career limiter. Relationship wise, career wise and personality wise. As for my parents being proud, I suppose they are. Not sure why. I am proud of my accomplishments, not theirs. They should be proud they instilled hard work and toughness in their child, something you can't learn in school or pay for.
That has benefited me over my career far more than anything I learned in class.

1. Talk to the many people, some you may know, who took on this massive debt and then could not find a job in their field let alone a job at all during the crisis. Ask them if they view student loan debt as a "financial benefit." ask the people on this site who have layoffs looming how they view their student loan debt. The only benefit one would have from student loans is writing off part of the interest on their taxes. If you're talking about that, sure.

A parent can't instill hardwork or toughness in their child. Thats something a kid either takes in or doesn't. I'm sure there are plenty of wealthy/middle class/poor people who have and still work their asses off. Their kids don't. Toughness is not something you can't instill either. My dad's tough. I'm tough. My brother, softer than pink cashmere. How do you measure toughness though? I agree that you can't learn those values by going to class. But you damn sure can learn those values when you have pay for it yourself. When you have no safety net underneath you, its amazing what one can accomplish.

I agree that most people whine here. More so than my wife's dog. Hope you weren't referring to me

My post was not in reference to you as I know you put yourself through school and a difficult situation.

My point is this. Debt is a financial issue. If you are debt free that doesn't mean you will be a top bucket analyst. See my point. Having debt means less disposable income. It means less savings earlier. It doesn't mean you can't be hired, can't excel and can't get promoted.

Career benefit is different than financial benefit. Career benefits include school brand, where you start your first job, how you perform, if your parents have connections, if you intern or not during school, etc. Financial benefits include debt, investments, salary, how you spend and save, etc.

So you can have no debt and be an all star analyst or be debt laden and be a shitty analyst.

And I also agree that a tough life can quickly separate the strong from the weak. Maybe a good compromise is to force your kid to work and take loans and then pay them off in the end if the kid is sufficiently hardened. All I do know if people are bitching and whining about working 20 hours while studying finance (not a hard major like engineering, physics, math, etc) and having some student debt then they sure as hell are going to be in for a wake up when the real world hits them.

May 28, 2013

In general, it's almost certainly better if a kid doesn't have to shoulder paying for college him/herself. That said, there is definitely value in putting yourself through school. I'm sure many of you have read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, and one of the key points he makes (certainly not the only) is that the misfortune/hardship of a generation often leads to the subsequent generation obtaining the skills/mindset necessary to "making it." Of course, there are other key factors like timing, resource availability, market cycles, etc...

i.e. M&A among for law firms used to be considered unprestigious and unbefitting of white-shoe law firms to do. Of course, the poor Jewish immigrant lawyers busted ass and scraped by doing this very thing for years, until M&A picked up in the 1970's and exploded from there. Hence, leading to the abundance of powerhouse Jewish lawyers and law firms today.

May 28, 2013

Man... I remember back in the day when I got shit all over on WSO for not having "four years of living expenses" saved up while working my way through college.

"That dude is so haole, he don't even have any breath left."

May 28, 2013
FeelingMean:

Man... I remember back in the day when I got shit all over on WSO for not having "four years of living expenses" saved up while working my way through college.

It's because your parents were irresponsible bro lol.

Don't feel bad. The opinions on this site are largely suspect.

May 28, 2013

Having money is absolutely a plus for your career. Say I want an IB job (and this applies to all high paying careers) but I went to a non target and couldn't network my way in? Welllll, if I had $30-40k I could do one of those MSF degrees or others and "rebrand" myself or whatever or get additional qualifications. That is good for your career. Money is absolutely a boon to your career. Or if you have money and you have a shit job where you're going nowhere....you can afford to switch jobs. There's a reason it's called Fuck You MONEY. Money gives you choices to go in the direction you want with your career choices. If you have a bunch of debt and you don't have money you can't leave a shitty job for something that MIGHT be better.

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we're in like a dirty shirt.

May 28, 2013
Grouse:

Having money is absolutely a plus for your career. Say I want an IB job (and this applies to all high paying careers) but I went to a non target and couldn't network my way in? Welllll, if I had $30-40k I could do one of those MSF degrees or others and "rebrand" myself or whatever or get additional qualifications. That is good for your career. Money is absolutely a boon to your career. Or if you have money and you have a shit job where you're going nowhere....you can afford to switch jobs. There's a reason it's called Fuck You MONEY. Money gives you choices to go in the direction you want with your career choices. If you have a bunch of debt and you don't have money you can't leave a shitty job for something that MIGHT be better.

Fuck you debt is superior.

May 28, 2013

In response to the "no reason to not pay for your child's education" statement, there's a new york times article on parental contribution negatively affecting a student's performance....

On a more serious note, I feel that having to pay my way through school is leading me to greater academic success; When it's your money on the line, you tend to take greater responsibility. I've watched too many of my friends party away their parents money and end up doing worse than they should have. Conversely, working full-time while going to school certainly didn't hamper my ability to get a 3.9 GPA. If anything, it drove home the necessity of performing well.

    • 1
May 28, 2013
ate9ten:

In response to the "no reason to not pay for your child's education" statement, there's a new york times article on parental contribution negatively affecting a student's performance....

On a more serious note, I feel that having to pay my way through school is leading me to greater academic success; When it's your money on the line, you tend to take greater responsibility. I've watched too many of my friends party away their parents money and end up doing worse than they should have. Conversely, working full-time while going to school certainly didn't hamper my ability to get a 3.9 GPA. If anything, it drove home the necessity of performing well.

Your parents are irresponsible and should feel bad. You should feel bad.

May 28, 2013

I love how having to work part time is being used as a reasoning behind lower grades. Cause we all know US kids don't party their ass of 10-20 hours a week. I'm sure it was those 10 hours in the computer lab and not the weekend long rager that dropped you letter grade.

May 28, 2013
TNA:

I love how having to work part time is being used as a reasoning behind lower grades. Cause we all know US kids don't party their ass of 10-20 hours a week. I'm sure it was those 10 hours in the computer lab and not the weekend long rager that dropped you letter grade.

Where has anyone mentioned working 10-20 hours a week? The least I mentioned was 30. This isn't a debate about part time working. It's about putting yourself THROUGH school by yourself because your parents can't or won't help. Literally, not one person has argued for the kid who only works 10 hours/week.

Also, strong assumption that every kid out there is partying like crazy. I went to a TOP party school and even about half the kids there were pretty adamant studiers.

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we're in like a dirty shirt.

May 28, 2013

My nephews had their college paid for by my brother in law for completely useless degrees (think music/film type degrees). Now, these guys are in their late twenties working sporadically in shit jobs, because they know they'll always be able to feed on their parents' teat. How is that more responsible parenting than letting the kids have a little more skin in the game?

TNA gets the quote of the thread for this: "society has created this adult child phenomena.". This is a huge problem today and neatly sums up the situation for my nephews and many other 'adults' in their twenties. The number of grown children living with their parents is kind of sickening today.

    • 1
    • 1
May 28, 2013
SirTradesaLot:

My nephews had their college paid for by my brother in law for completely useless degrees (think music/film type degrees). Now, these guys are in their late twenties working sporadically in shit jobs, because they know they'll always be able to feed on their parents' teat. How is that more responsible parenting than letting the kids have a little more skin in the game?

TNA gets the quote of the thread for this: "society has created this adult child phenomena.". This is a huge problem today and neatly sums up the situation for my nephews and many other 'adults' in their twenties. The number of grown children living with their parents is kind of sickening today.

It isn't. I never said it was. If they had been ball busting hard-working kids going for a real degree to get a real job and be financially successful then that would the instance in which I am saying parents have a responsibility to be prepared to step up to the plate and help out.

My argument is that kids who have already learned the value of hard work are not served by parents who say "well learn it some more and take an extra 2 years to graduate with $XYZ in debt."

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we're in like a dirty shirt.

May 28, 2013
Grouse:
SirTradesaLot:

My nephews had their college paid for by my brother in law for completely useless degrees (think music/film type degrees). Now, these guys are in their late twenties working sporadically in shit jobs, because they know they'll always be able to feed on their parents' teat. How is that more responsible parenting than letting the kids have a little more skin in the game?
TNA gets the quote of the thread for this: "society has created this adult child phenomena.". This is a huge problem today and neatly sums up the situation for my nephews and many other 'adults' in their twenties. The number of grown children living with their parents is kind of sickening today.

It isn't. I never said it was. If they had been ball busting hard-working kids going for a real degree to get a real job and be financially successful then that would the instance in which I am saying parents have a responsibility to be prepared to step up to the plate and help out.

My argument is that kids who have already learned the value of hard work are not served by parents who say "well learn it some more and take an extra 2 years to graduate with $XYZ in debt."

^^^^i agree 100%

Christmas trees are beautiful without presents under them.

May 28, 2013

Yeah, I have the understanding issue. Many people took issue with your broad statements about parental responsibility. I am not misrepresenting anything.

"I respect it when people really put themselves through but I pity them more"

No one wants your pity. Keep it.

"Somebody who pays their way through a well-regarded (read: expensive) school making chump change is going to start out behind equally, or even less, hard-working kids who had parental help. Fact. They're busting their asses but will never be as successful as they would have."

Fact huh. Maybe just a broad based assumption. Never be as successful? That couldn't be an assumption on your part now could it.

"While I feel sorry for the human race that so many of you will be shorting your kids when it matters most for their career success (the establishment of work force trajectory)"

Yeah, because student loans have anything to do with success in the work force. The fact that you cannot understand financial benefit and career benefit is enough to support my stance.

"paying for your kids to go to college is probably one of the biggest advantages you can give them today."

Now this isn't a broad statement at all.

"If you graduate with a $75k debt at 22, your credit is shit."

So we've established you don't understand how credit works. Good.

"You will not be able to get a car loan if you need one, you will have to get a job ASAP whether it's a good one or not."

Oh heaven forbid a child will one day have to become an adult. I mean god forbid the first job a kid has isn't VP at Goldman. His career trajectory is shot. I suppose the parent should continue to support this child or else it would be "irresponsible".

"Have you not even been paying attention to how many college grads with loans are defaulting?"

Actually I have. It is in for profit universities. Go to the Dept of Education site and read their report on it. Default rates for non profit, actual universities are very low.

You're argument is shit and many people in this thread have taken issue with it. You think qualify it repeatedly until eventually your stance holds no weight. This is good though because it never held weight.

A persons career trajectory, benefit from college, debt level, etc are all so unique to a situation that saying not paying for college is irresponsible or makes you somehow a bad parent is just silly. You came on hard and people gave you shit for it. Then you moderated which was good. Either way I took offense at your initial statement and illustrated why. I am not misconstruing anything that you are saying.

Student loan debt sucks. All debt sucks. But this is an investment. Parents have an obligation to do a lot of things and many save for college for their kids, but sometimes it doesn't happen. As an 18 year old adult you have the responsibility to finance your own life. One could easily argue that immaturity does more to harm a career trajectory, whatever that is, than college finances. Just take a look at all the kids on this site who studied bullshit or went somewhere with no recruiting and you can see how immaturity impacts career more than being debt free.

In fact, this whole trajectory that you keep promoting is more bullshit than the irresponsible line. I'd suggest getting a career first and then worrying about the trajectory. People get laid off, their divisions close. You relocate. You go back to grad school, maybe you don't. A career is full of twists and turns regardless of some school debt or parental help.

I'll give you this. It seems like you hold a grudge against your parents, which is fine. They are yours and you can hold a grudge if you want. I'd advise against projecting your issues onto others. When I consider the quality of my parents and others I know of the size of the college check doesn't come into the equation. Maybe I just measure responsibly and good parenting by more than just paying for me to go to school.

May 29, 2013

Oh my god. where to start with your inability to comprehend.

TNA:

Yeah, I have the understanding issue. Many people took issue with your broad statements about parental responsibility. I am not misrepresenting anything.

"I respect it when people really put themselves through but I pity them more"

No one wants your pity. Keep it.

Brilliant from the supposed enemy of assumptions. I put myself through school and I can offer my opinion on the matter.

"Somebody who pays their way through a well-regarded (read: expensive) school making chump change is going to start out behind equally, or even less, hard-working kids who had parental help. Fact. They're busting their asses but will never be as successful as they would have."

Fact huh. Maybe just a broad based assumption. Never be as successful? That couldn't be an assumption on your part now could it.

Maybe you've learned how to travel through time, but for the rest of us life is finite. If I have to spend 2 of my 50 odd years doing A then I can't spend 50 years doing B. Hence it is literally impossible for me to be as successful as myself with an additional two years. The reason I didn't give an external comparison was because it was relative to oneself. Brilliant reading comprehension.

"While I feel sorry for the human race that so many of you will be shorting your kids when it matters most for their career success (the establishment of work force trajectory)"

Yeah, because student loans have anything to do with success in the work force. The fact that you cannot understand financial benefit and career benefit is enough to support my stance.

Yes, debt matters. I didn't say it was everything but it certainly matters. It limits your choices and therefore your opportunities. You for example couldn't get into IB out of undergrad so you went for an MSF. You couldn't have done that without the availability of money.

"paying for your kids to go to college is probably one of the biggest advantages you can give them today."

Now this isn't a broad statement at all.

Of course it's broad it was meant to be. Your point?

"If you graduate with a $75k debt at 22, your credit is shit."

So we've established you don't understand how credit works. Good.

Way to ignore the following 2/3 of my argument where I elaborate on that point. You're so honest.

Oh heaven forbid a child will one day have to become an adult. I mean god forbid the first job a kid has isn't VP at Goldman. His career trajectory is shot. I suppose the parent should continue to support this child or else it would be "irresponsible".

Your antics are great. People only take a point to absurdity when they can't refute it. I was referring to being in a position to hunt for a job for a couple months rather than take the first one that you get offered even if it's shit.

"Have you not even been paying attention to how many college grads with loans are defaulting?"

Actually I have. It is in for profit universities. Go to the Dept of Education site and read their report on it. Default rates for non profit, actual universities are very low.

From InsideHigherEd:
Just over 9 percent of students default on their federal student loans in the first two years after they begin paying them back, and 13.4 percent default in the first three years, according to data released Friday by the Education Department.

This is the first year the federal government has released the official default rate over three years, rather than two, which will later be used to determine colleges' eligibility for federal financial aid. The two-year "cohort" default rate, which measures borrowers who entered repayment between October 2009 and September 2010, and defaulted on their loans by the end of September 2011 (during the 2010 fiscal year), continued a steady upward climb that began in 2005 and worsened with the recession. But the three-year rate, which this year measures borrowers who entered repayment between October 2008 and September 2009, and defaulted by the end of September 2011, dropped slightly. The two-year default rate for fiscal year 2009, released last year, was 8.8 percent.

The drop could indicate that a smaller proportion of students are defaulting, or that colleges, conscious that the three-year rates matter more this year than last, have been more proactive about pushing students who could not repay into deferment or forbearance, programs that allow students to postpone repayment without counting them as defaulters. The rising two-year rate, which is now at its highest level since 1996, was largely attributed to the still-struggling economy.

Read more: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/10/01/two-...
Inside Higher Ed

I love how intellectually honest you are. Like I wouldn't look up the exact rates because you name-dropped a [gasp] DOE article. This absolutely buttresses what I said. Rougly 14% of people default in the first FEW years. What about over the next 10-15? I'd say a >10% default rate within just 3 years is pretty high

You're argument is shit and many people in this thread have taken issue with it. You think qualify it repeatedly until eventually your stance holds no weight. This is good though because it never held weight.

Many people have also agreed with it. Furthermore, it has been qualified in the exact same way from my very first post. Nice whitewash.

A persons career trajectory, benefit from college, debt level, etc are all so unique to a situation that saying not paying for college is irresponsible or makes you somehow a bad parent is just silly. You came on hard and people gave you shit for it. Then you moderated which was good. Either way I took offense at your initial statement and illustrated why. I am not misconstruing anything that you are saying.

Oh my god do you even know what a ceteris paribus style argument is? Let me put it in all caps maybe that will work. IT MEANS THAT I ENTIRELY ACCEPT THAT THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS FOR VARYING REASONS BUT IN A SITUATION IN WHICH EVERYTHING ELSE IS HELD EQUAL (I.E. THE EXCEPTIONS ARE ELIMINATED) (REPEAT THIS PART 100X) PARENTS SHOULD MAKE PREPARATIONS TO GET THEIR KIDS THROUGH COLLEGE. Jesus Christ, does this whole thing boil down to you not understanding that I acknowledged exceptions the WHOLE TIME? If you don't believe me look at the debate I had last night with the fellow who's mother was a math teacher and father was a banker.

Student loan debt sucks. All debt sucks. But this is an investment. Parents have an obligation to do a lot of things and many save for college for their kids, but sometimes it doesn't happen. As an 18 year old adult you have the responsibility to finance your own life. One could easily argue that immaturity does more to harm a career trajectory, whatever that is, than college finances. Just take a look at all the kids on this site who studied bullshit or went somewhere with no recruiting and you can see how immaturity impacts career more than being debt free.

18 is just an arbitrary number. Some states say it's 17, others say it's 16. Still yet there are plenty of laws, such as for alcohol consumption, that define it as 21. If you're telling me that the magic # is 18 because that's the number the government gives...well why aren't you saying it's 16 or 17 or 21? The government also gives those numbers as the "age of majority." The reason is that it's not a specific age - it's a window and it depends on context.

In fact, this whole trajectory that you keep promoting is more bullshit than the irresponsible line. I'd suggest getting a career first and then worrying about the trajectory. People get laid off, their divisions close. You relocate. You go back to grad school, maybe you don't. A career is full of twists and turns regardless of some school debt or parental help.

It's exactly because of life's uncertainties that parents should give the last solid push of help to give their kid the best odds of success.

I'll give you this. It seems like you hold a grudge against your parents, which is fine. They are yours and you can hold a grudge if you want. I'd advise against projecting your issues onto others. When I consider the quality of my parents and others I know of the size of the college check doesn't come into the equation. Maybe I just measure responsibly and good parenting by more than just paying for me to go to school.

You crossed a line there. I have already mentioned that this situation doesn't apply to me. I had a full tuition scholarship and worked as well, but my parents would have helped me in a second if I had needed it. My argument is about the philosophical responsibilities people have toward the children they bring into the world. But if you want to make this real and denigrate my relationship with my parents, then I will be happy to make it real to your pasty unathletic gut when you come down for the next Energy Rodeo.

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we're in like a dirty shirt.

May 29, 2013
Grouse:

Oh my god. where to start with your inability to comprehend.

TNA:

Yeah, I have the understanding issue. Many people took issue with your broad statements about parental responsibility. I am not misrepresenting anything.
"I respect it when people really put themselves through but I pity them more"
No one wants your pity. Keep it.

Brilliant from the supposed enemy of assumptions. I put myself through school and I can offer my opinion on the matter.

"Somebody who pays their way through a well-regarded (read: expensive) school making chump change is going to start out behind equally, or even less, hard-working kids who had parental help. Fact. They're busting their asses but will never be as successful as they would have."
Fact huh. Maybe just a broad based assumption. Never be as successful? That couldn't be an assumption on your part now could it.

Maybe you've learned how to travel through time, but for the rest of us life is finite. If I have to spend 2 of my 50 odd years doing A then I can't spend 50 years doing B. Hence it is literally impossible for me to be as successful as myself with an additional two years. The reason I didn't give an external comparison was because it was relative to oneself. Brilliant reading comprehension.

"While I feel sorry for the human race that so many of you will be shorting your kids when it matters most for their career success (the establishment of work force trajectory)"
Yeah, because student loans have anything to do with success in the work force. The fact that you cannot understand financial benefit and career benefit is enough to support my stance.

Yes, debt matters. I didn't say it was everything but it certainly matters. It limits your choices and therefore your opportunities. You for example couldn't get into IB out of undergrad so you went for an MSF. You couldn't have done that without the availability of money.

"paying for your kids to go to college is probably one of the biggest advantages you can give them today."
Now this isn't a broad statement at all.

Of course it's broad it was meant to be. Your point?

"If you graduate with a $75k debt at 22, your credit is shit."

So we've established you don't understand how credit works. Good.

Way to ignore the following 2/3 of my argument where I elaborate on that point. You're so honest.

Oh heaven forbid a child will one day have to become an adult. I mean god forbid the first job a kid has isn't VP at Goldman. His career trajectory is shot. I suppose the parent should continue to support this child or else it would be "irresponsible".

Your antics are great. People only take a point to absurdity when they can't refute it. I was referring to being in a position to hunt for a job for a couple months rather than take the first one that you get offered even if it's shit.

"Have you not even been paying attention to how many college grads with loans are defaulting?"
Actually I have. It is in for profit universities. Go to the Dept of Education site and read their report on it. Default rates for non profit, actual universities are very low.

From InsideHigherEd:
Just over 9 percent of students default on their federal student loans in the first two years after they begin paying them back, and 13.4 percent default in the first three years, according to data released Friday by the Education Department.

This is the first year the federal government has released the official default rate over three years, rather than two, which will later be used to determine colleges' eligibility for federal financial aid. The two-year "cohort" default rate, which measures borrowers who entered repayment between October 2009 and September 2010, and defaulted on their loans by the end of September 2011 (during the 2010 fiscal year), continued a steady upward climb that began in 2005 and worsened with the recession. But the three-year rate, which this year measures borrowers who entered repayment between October 2008 and September 2009, and defaulted by the end of September 2011, dropped slightly. The two-year default rate for fiscal year 2009, released last year, was 8.8 percent.

The drop could indicate that a smaller proportion of students are defaulting, or that colleges, conscious that the three-year rates matter more this year than last, have been more proactive about pushing students who could not repay into deferment or forbearance, programs that allow students to postpone repayment without counting them as defaulters. The rising two-year rate, which is now at its highest level since 1996, was largely attributed to the still-struggling economy.

Read more: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/10/01/two-...
Inside Higher Ed

I love how intellectually honest you are. Like I wouldn't look up the exact rates because you name-dropped a [gasp] DOE article. This absolutely buttresses what I said. Rougly 14% of people default in the first FEW years. What about over the next 10-15? I'd say a >10% default rate within just 3 years is pretty high

You're argument is shit and many people in this thread have taken issue with it. You think qualify it repeatedly until eventually your stance holds no weight. This is good though because it never held weight.

Many people have also agreed with it. Furthermore, it has been qualified in the exact same way from my very first post. Nice whitewash.

A persons career trajectory, benefit from college, debt level, etc are all so unique to a situation that saying not paying for college is irresponsible or makes you somehow a bad parent is just silly. You came on hard and people gave you shit for it. Then you moderated which was good. Either way I took offense at your initial statement and illustrated why. I am not misconstruing anything that you are saying.

Oh my god do you even know what a ceteris paribus style argument is? Let me put it in all caps maybe that will work. IT MEANS THAT I ENTIRELY ACCEPT THAT THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS FOR VARYING REASONS BUT IN A SITUATION IN WHICH EVERYTHING ELSE IS HELD EQUAL (I.E. THE EXCEPTIONS ARE ELIMINATED) (REPEAT THIS PART 100X) PARENTS SHOULD MAKE PREPARATIONS TO GET THEIR KIDS THROUGH COLLEGE. Jesus Christ, does this whole thing boil down to you not understanding that I acknowledged exceptions the WHOLE TIME? If you don't believe me look at the debate I had last night with the fellow who's mother was a math teacher and father was a banker.

Student loan debt sucks. All debt sucks. But this is an investment. Parents have an obligation to do a lot of things and many save for college for their kids, but sometimes it doesn't happen. As an 18 year old adult you have the responsibility to finance your own life. One could easily argue that immaturity does more to harm a career trajectory, whatever that is, than college finances. Just take a look at all the kids on this site who studied bullshit or went somewhere with no recruiting and you can see how immaturity impacts career more than being debt free.

18 is just an arbitrary number. Some states say it's 17, others say it's 16. Still yet there are plenty of laws, such as for alcohol consumption, that define it as 21. If you're telling me that the magic # is 18 because that's the number the government gives...well why aren't you saying it's 16 or 17 or 21? The government also gives those numbers as the "age of majority." The reason is that it's not a specific age - it's a window and it depends on context.

In fact, this whole trajectory that you keep promoting is more bullshit than the irresponsible line. I'd suggest getting a career first and then worrying about the trajectory. People get laid off, their divisions close. You relocate. You go back to grad school, maybe you don't. A career is full of twists and turns regardless of some school debt or parental help.

It's exactly because of life's uncertainties that parents should give the last solid push of help to give their kid the best odds of success.

I'll give you this. It seems like you hold a grudge against your parents, which is fine. They are yours and you can hold a grudge if you want. I'd advise against projecting your issues onto others. When I consider the quality of my parents and others I know of the size of the college check doesn't come into the equation. Maybe I just measure responsibly and good parenting by more than just paying for me to go to school.

You crossed a line there. I have already mentioned that this situation doesn't apply to me. I had a full tuition scholarship and worked as well, but my parents would have helped me in a second if I had needed it. My argument is about the philosophical responsibilities people have toward the children they bring into the world. But if you want to make this real and denigrate my relationship with my parents, then I will be happy to make it real to your pasty unathletic gut when you come down for the next Energy Rodeo.

May 28, 2013

Grouse = idiot

    • 1
May 28, 2013
SirTradesaLot:

Grouse = idiot

    • 1
May 28, 2013

http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/first-offici...

Student Loan Default Rates. Might be helpful for those who want to learn something.

http://www.asa.org/policy/resources/stats/

Avg student loan debt - $26K - $300 dollars per month

Only 3% have more than $100K

OH MY GOD. Bone crushing $300 per month. Career trajectories are blown by that. No one could live in NYC with a $300 dollar a month nut to crack. The humanity!!!

http://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2012/...

89% of students with debt have below $50K.

Fact - Student Loan debt is not fun, but manageable. It doesn't prevent you from living in a city. Doesn't impede your career. Doesn't put you at a disadvantage. Might make you spend less on booze, food or get a roommate.

Apologies for injecting some facts into these swing for the fence assumption fest.

May 28, 2013

Holy frick this thread blew up (even though most of the posts were from 2 people).

A) I'll start here. For those of you that shared you stories, thank you. I was just kind of curious how many people had to go through the "pay your way" route & how it impacted their careers - if at all.

B) I don't think any parent (or anyone really) is obligated to help/pay for someone else, especially going into adulthood. I do think its a parent's obligation to do their best not to raise a child that serves as a drag on society (ex. criminal, deadbeats, smoochers, rapists, general douchebags, etcs) but I don't think that necessarily implies they have to pay for a kid's college expense. Most people don't have decent foresight (its a shame) & can't prognosticate how their income potential will impact their child(ren) but that isn't the litmus test for being a decent parent. You can have money & still be a sh*t parent.

My parents were garbage but that was due to reasons way beyond their income. You can only tolerate so much booze, screaming & getting crap thrown at you before you snap at someone.

C) Did I like the path that got me where I am? Hell no, not at all. It sucked having to work that hard for basic things. It definitely puts a chip on your shoulder. That being said, it taught me hell of a lot of work ethic. It also made for great interview stories. If the worst that happens in my life is I graduated from my non-target and fail to get into HBS, so be it. Life could be much worse.

I'm not grateful for some lack of oppurtunities but I'm inclined to think that was more due to parents with garbage personalities than income.

BTW, I think if a parent does a decent job raising a child - the child would be able to make decisions both academic & career wise that has the highest sharpe ratio (read: highest return for each unit of risked capital a.k.a. parents + child's money). The kid should be able to take care of him/herself while minimizing parent's assistance.

    • 1
May 28, 2013
hopingtobreakin:

Holy frick this thread blew up (even though most of the posts were from 2 people).

A) I'll start here. For those of you that shared you stories, thank you. I was just kind of curious how many people had to go through the "pay your way" route & how it impacted their careers - if at all.

B) I don't think any parent (or anyone really) is obligated to help/pay for someone else, especially going into adulthood. I do think its a parent's obligation to do their best not to raise a child that serves as a drag on society (ex. criminal, deadbeats, smoochers, rapists, general douchebags, etcs) but I don't think that necessarily implies they have to pay for a kid's college expense. Most people don't have decent foresight (its a shame) & can't prognosticate how their income potential will impact their child(ren) but that isn't the litmus test for being a decent parent. You can have money & still be a sh*t parent.

My parents were garbage but that was due to reasons way beyond their income. You can only tolerate so much booze, screaming & getting crap thrown at you before you snap at someone.

C) Did I like the path that got me where I am? Hell no, not at all. It sucked having to work that hard for basic things. It definitely puts a chip on your shoulder. That being said, it taught me hell of a lot of work ethic. It also made for great interview stories. If the worst that happens in my life is I graduated from my non-target and fail to get into HBS, so be it. Life could be much worse.

I'm not grateful for some lack of oppurtunities but I'm inclined to think that was more due to parents with garbage personalities than income.

BTW, I think if a parent does a decent job raising a child - the child would be able to make decisions both academic & career wise that has the highest sharpe ratio (read: highest return for each unit of risked capital a.k.a. parents + child's money). The kid should be able to take care of him/herself while minimizing parent's assistance.

+1. Thanks for making the thread as many people on WSO have a similar story.

May 28, 2013
TNA:
hopingtobreakin:

Holy frick this thread blew up (even though most of the posts were from 2 people).
A) I'll start here. For those of you that shared you stories, thank you. I was just kind of curious how many people had to go through the "pay your way" route & how it impacted their careers - if at all.
B) I don't think any parent (or anyone really) is obligated to help/pay for someone else, especially going into adulthood. I do think its a parent's obligation to do their best not to raise a child that serves as a drag on society (ex. criminal, deadbeats, smoochers, rapists, general douchebags, etcs) but I don't think that necessarily implies they have to pay for a kid's college expense. Most people don't have decent foresight (its a shame) & can't prognosticate how their income potential will impact their child(ren) but that isn't the litmus test for being a decent parent. You can have money & still be a sh*t parent.
My parents were garbage but that was due to reasons way beyond their income. You can only tolerate so much booze, screaming & getting crap thrown at you before you snap at someone.
C) Did I like the path that got me where I am? Hell no, not at all. It sucked having to work that hard for basic things. It definitely puts a chip on your shoulder. That being said, it taught me hell of a lot of work ethic. It also made for great interview stories. If the worst that happens in my life is I graduated from my non-target and fail to get into HBS, so be it. Life could be much worse.
I'm not grateful for some lack of oppurtunities but I'm inclined to think that was more due to parents with garbage personalities than income.
BTW, I think if a parent does a decent job raising a child - the child would be able to make decisions both academic & career wise that has the highest sharpe ratio (read: highest return for each unit of risked capital a.k.a. parents + child's money). The kid should be able to take care of him/herself while minimizing parent's assistance.

+1. Thanks for making the thread as many people on WSO have a similar story.

Thanks. In a wierd way, I feel a little better about myself. My firm is chock full of pedigreed people (most of them r frickin awesome though) & couldn't help but wonder what the personal backgrounds of many on wall street/WSO were. In a way, I feel like I read the American dream several times over in this thread. Congrats to everyone on the site/street (or people in other industries) that made it the way you did. I gotta email my friend this thread (he's going to law school but should be a fun read).

May 28, 2013

What I really wish I had growing up, and now actually, is a caring father figure who was able to guide me in the right direction and tell me how shit works. Maybe would have been able to avoid a lot of mistakes and maybe make better decisions at a younger age. I think that that's worth a lot more than $100k.

Whatever, manifest destiny

My point here is that I have no way of knowing what my financial situation will be in 20 years, but I do know that I'm going to be there for my kid.

May 28, 2013

Glad to see this thread come back on point. Good job to all the WSOers who dealt with less than optimal circumstances.

May 29, 2013

I am still living with parents, but own a small business, which brings in a good income every month for food, car, school and chill money. I enjoy "you kill what you eat", It makes me manage my money more accordingly. Kudos to everybody who pay for school, work hard and play hard.

May 29, 2013
Bullsfriend:

I am still living with parents, but own a small business, which brings in a good income every month for food, car, school and chill money. I enjoy "you kill what you eat", It makes me manage my money more accordingly. Kudos to everybody who pay for school, work hard and play hard.

Mind if I ask what you do?

May 29, 2013

I am currently an entering senior at a non target. I have been working since I was 13 at odd jobs such as lawn maintenance. As soon as I turned 16 I got my first real job. I have never been out of work for more than a month since. I currently receive enough financial aid to cover my tuition and I work to cover all over expenses. My car insurance is on my parents plan so they pay that, but everything else comes from my pockets. And honestly, there is nothing I hate more than having to ask my parents for money.

May 29, 2013

Hey Grouse, learn how to reply to a post on this site. Your massive quote within a quote is impossible to follow.

Either way your assumptions are faulty, but please continue parroting your "career trajectory" misinformation.

And you can go to the higher ed site all you want.The Dept of Education has the same raw data and I've read plenty of materials on for profit and not for profit education. The fact is most people have under $50K in student loan debt and default rates are highest for for-profit universities.

Yes, yes. I know what ceteris paribus means. All else being equal student loan debt has nothing to do with career trajectory. It has something to do with savings accumulations and disposable income once you start working, but it does not make you a good or bad employee. Try and understand this simple fact. Parents paying for your college makes your life easier, but it doesn't make your career better.

And keep your pity. Just because, gasp, you had to work through school doesn't give you a special badge of courage. Many of us did the same thing and don't carry around resentment to our parents. We also don't throw around negative statements about parental "irresponsibility" simply because you feel like you are entitled to something.

Entitlement. Slowly ruining this country.

May 29, 2013
Grouse:

Frankly, I think your life is probably going nowhere

What the fuck have you done?

May 29, 2013

"You crossed a line there. I have already mentioned that this situation doesn't apply to me. I had a full tuition scholarship and worked as well, but my parents would have helped me in a second if I had needed it. My argument is about the philosophical responsibilities people have toward the children they bring into the world. But if you want to make this real and denigrate my relationship with my parents, then I will be happy to make it real to your pasty unathletic gut when you come down for the next Energy Rodeo."

Oh man, this shit is rich. You are bitching about parents being irresponsible, parroting this shit endlessly. Then when someone says you have issues with your parents you get butt hurt?

Make it real to my pasty, unathletic gut. HAHAHAHA. Wow man, calm the fuck down. Nothing like getting internet violent when someone disagrees with you.

Insults and violence. The bastions of those who cannot handle losing an argument. Sad to see this on a site full of "educated" people.

Carry on.

May 29, 2013

I can't believe this is still going. Life isn't fair. Your parents are either going to pay for your education or not, it's up to them. It's their money. They worked for it. They sacrificed their TIME for it. Saying you deserve any of it makes you look like a stuck-up little shit.

May 29, 2013
Grouse:

Oh MAN you couldn't even get into IB AFTER the MSF!

Yikes.

There's absolutely no need to go from a silly internet fight to doxing people you disagree with. You should be perma-banned from WSO for this.

May 29, 2013
holla_back:
Grouse:

Oh MAN you couldn't even get into IB AFTER the MSF!
Yikes.

There's absolutely no need to go from a silly internet fight to doxing people you disagree with. You should be perma-banned from WSO for this.

Totally agree. You should be banned if you try to reveal people's real name or identifying characteristics.

May 29, 2013
holla_back:
Grouse:

Oh MAN you couldn't even get into IB AFTER the MSF!
Yikes.

There's absolutely no need to go from a silly internet fight to doxing people you disagree with. You should be perma-banned from WSO for this.

Grouse....I was actually following your argument a little, until you made this comment. Personal attacks convey weakness in an argument, and you totally lost all credibility with not only myself, but probably everyone else reading this thread....GTFO!

I personally know TNA and he has helped me tremendously in the past with preparing for and securing my position in IB. Just because he did not make it into IB does not imply that he is not as credible as those who did. News flash....IB is not the only means to successs. TNA is not only an asset to this site, but also the finance community.

May 29, 2013

LOL I am flattered you wanted to internet creep me out. You are adorable hahaha

Gotta love when you correct someone and they get upset. The interwebs is serious business yo.

@DM - He hasn't done anything. I've met most of the people on this site in person and countless people know who I am. This guy comes on here making broad statements and someone called him on it. Now he is acting like even more of a child. It is indicative of my previous statement about people with limited world view and childish behavior.

As for you Grouse, not sure your point. I have an UG and a MSF in finance, have worked in industry my entire post grad life. My entire story holds up. Maybe yours does, maybe it doesn't. I don't care enough to go through your posts to find out. I'd suggest you get a hold of yourself as this site is a great place to network and make friends. Acting like a baby whenever someone disagrees with you isn't the way to do things.

Also, I never got personal. You are the one talking about parents being irresponsible. You are the one bringing YOUR parents into it. I simply said you should stop projecting your opinions and feelings onto other people.

"If that is your parents, like it was mine, understanding that they were irresponsible doesn't mean you don't love them or that you want to hurt them by putting it in their face. I love my folks. I bust my ass in a panic every day worried that I won't be successful soon enough to provide my older-than-typical parents with a great retirement. From an objective standpoint, however, that doesn't mean that the way our parents did kids was the right way or that it is an excuse for us to be unprepared when we pop out that ambitious kid who understands hard work before college and don't need the lesson."

So get a grip on yourself. If anyone else wants to delve into my personal life they only need to ask instead of searching around like a kid. I went to Syracuse on nearly a full scholarship. I did an MSF and received a fellowship. I've worked BO, MO and FO and large banks and small shops. Anything else just let me know. You're going to give people shit because of the size of firm they work at? That is pretty funny.

May 29, 2013
TNA:

LOL I am flattered you wanted to internet creep me out. You are adorable hahaha

Gotta love when you correct someone and they get upset. The interwebs is serious business yo.

@DM - He hasn't done anything. I've met most of the people on this site in person and countless people know who I am. This guy comes on here making broad statements and someone called him on it. Now he is acting like even more of a child. It is indicative of my previous statement about people with limited world view and childish behavior.

As for you Grouse, not sure your point. I have an UG and a MSF in finance, have worked in industry my entire post grad life. My entire story holds up. Maybe yours does, maybe it doesn't. I don't care enough to go through your posts to find out. I'd suggest you get a hold of yourself as this site is a great place to network and make friends. Acting like a baby whenever someone disagrees with you isn't the way to do things.

Also, I never got personal. You are the one talking about parents being irresponsible. You are the one bringing YOUR parents into it. I simply said you should stop projecting your opinions and feelings onto other people.

"If that is your parents, like it was mine, understanding that they were irresponsible doesn't mean you don't love them or that you want to hurt them by putting it in their face. I love my folks. I bust my ass in a panic every day worried that I won't be successful soon enough to provide my older-than-typical parents with a great retirement. From an objective standpoint, however, that doesn't mean that the way our parents did kids was the right way or that it is an excuse for us to be unprepared when we pop out that ambitious kid who understands hard work before college and don't need the lesson."

So get a grip on yourself. If anyone else wants to delve into my personal life they only need to ask instead of searching around like a kid. I went to Syracuse on nearly a full scholarship. I did an MSF and received a fellowship. I've worked BO, MO and FO and large banks and small shops. Anything else just let me know. You're going to give people shit because of the size of firm they work at? That is pretty funny.

He's an idiot, ANT. No point in wasting anymore time trying to have a conversation with him. He contradicted himself several times and clearly doesn't have enough life perspective to have an unbiased view on this issue. Anyway, hope all is well and we will get beers after the conference.

May 29, 2013

Damn, what's up with revealing other people (regardless of whether identities are widely known)?

Get back on topic.

May 29, 2013
CoochieMane:

Damn, what's up with revealing other people (regardless of whether identities are widely known)?

Get back on topic.

I'm pretty sure Patrick does not take kindly to people revealing others. It's pretty childish and serves no real purpose in this argument as well as potentially driving away those who want to contribute but do not want to have their identities revealed. Clean that shit up Grouse.

May 29, 2013

Ok, lets all just move on from this. I am open about who I am so I think a free pass can be given in this situation. With that said it is usually not best practice to try and "out someone" or whatever that means, especially when a rather civil and factual argument is going on.

And if anyone ever wants information on me all they have to do is ask. No need to waste time searching when I would happily volunteer the information in the first place.

May 29, 2013

I just drilled some speed holes in the ban stick. Revealing any information about another member will result in a ban.

WSO Vice President, Data
@JustinDDuBois

May 29, 2013
Commuter:

I just drilled some speed holes in the ban stick. Revealing any information about another member will result in a ban.

It's the banhammer bro, don't shortchange yourself

    • 1
May 30, 2013
D M:
Commuter:

I just drilled some speed holes in the ban stick. Revealing any information about another member will result in a ban.

It's the banhammer bro, don't shortchange yourself

Thanks for keeping me focused and proud.

WSO Vice President, Data
@JustinDDuBois

May 29, 2013

It's actually funny that someone who self-identifies as a 'perspective monkey' is insulting somebody else about having a job.

May 29, 2013

Grouse will be unable to respond

WSO Vice President, Data
@JustinDDuBois

May 29, 2013

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

May 30, 2013

I did not read this all, you all get way too emotional some of you. Still good debate and chatter overall.

The only point I will raise to ANT/Rufio/SirTrades etc.. is that I disagree on the debt and no real advantage thing. The reason for that is simply I highly doubt many of you would have gone the exact career path you did so if you had to less obstacles to deal with. The question is not to be a "top bucket analyst" vs "shitt analyst. But rather something totally different, why be an analyst at all? why work BO/MO if you hate it, simply to switch into a higher paying FO role at all? etc...

Personally I have seen people who could take risks earlier in their career, or broaden their career choices, travel/explore do it all much easier by starting out with little no debt and not having to worry about life from 18-23. While my friends who did have to worry, needed to plan accordingly and at time weigh the measures.

For myself, my parents paid for year 1 then rest was scholarships/internships/debt, upon my first year of work I paid back and more basically what they did for year 1 and actually loaned my sibling a fair amount of $$$ to pursue their masters as my income was more than my parents (divorced now) at this time, my parents thoughts were "our family was there for you, now you must be there for them". I do not blame my parents one bit nor our family culture, but there is many many times I look back and hope I could have used my internship $$$ to travel way more in my undergrad and experience different things versus having to worry about getting internship XYZ to make sure my debt was manageable for the coming semester.

The 20-30 hours a week working thing is fair, but I also could think of many ways to better use 20-30 hours a week then working a low paid campus job to secure booze/tuition/housing $$$. Pretty sure many start-ups were 20-30 hours a week at college once upon a time.

Skimming end of this thread, wtf is wrong with ppl...nm.

May 30, 2013

This is why we can't have nice things.

May 31, 2013
Comment

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Jun 1, 2013
Comment

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Aug 18, 2013
Aug 18, 2013