Dilemma: EB internship in Europe vs MM/semi BB FT in Asia
Hi folks,
Would really, really appreciate to receive some advice on my current situation. Apologies in advance for the long message.
EU citizen here, graduating this year from a top European target (think LBS, LSE, HEC Paris, ESADE).
I lived and interned in Asia for > 2 years and loved it, and I was aiming earlier last autumn at finding a position back in the country where I used to stay. Failed in doing so at the time, yet landed in December an off-cycle internship offer in M&A at a top EB's main European office.
I was happy back then and thought "fine, I'll just do 2-3 years here and then return to Asia. However, I realised I would be most likely pigeonholed in Europe forever going that way (no exposure to Asian clients, loss of my language proficiency, no opportunity to network, and basically just developing a Europe-focused expertise), while all I have been thinking of is going back.
3 months later (in March), I started applying for new positions in APAC, using remaining untapped parts of my network. Got dinged by Macquarie for a full-time infra IB position (despite having strong infra modeling experience and being told by one of the interviewers that there was no way I would not be going to the final round).
This week, however, I landed a FT offer from a not-exactly-BB (think BNP Paribas, RBC, RBS, CACIB, Nomura) in Australia. Investment banking team, but the role as it has been described to me sounds like country coverage for Energy and Infra (they said I'd be doing everything, M&A, DCM, financing, project finance (M&A not being what came first...). This bank is not top 10 in Australia for M&A, but is traditionally very strong in debt products. It's a small team (HK, Singapore or Japan after 1.5/2 years.
I received today background check emails from the two firms. I'm facing a dilemma now, since I cannot postpone any of the offers, and will have to either renege the EB (haven't sent out internship agreement yet) or refuse the other's bank offer (already received their contract). In terms of exposure and exit opps, it is obvious the EB would be the best, however it's just an internship so far and I really don't wanna spend the next 30 years of my career in Europe.
What do you think of the other bank's offer? What would you choose and why? Any thoughts, suggestions, comments?
Any valuable input and opinon deeply appreciated!
Australia is not closer to Asia (assuming you mean east Asia) than Europe. I don't think there would be a problem to find a good buy-side/banking role in Asia after two year EB in Europe. Brand name matters a lot to your long-term career so I would take the EB offer.
Hi Tech,
Australia is still part of APAC - at least in the MM structure. Oz's economy is getting more and more interconnected to East Asian economies (especially China and especially
What kind of shops in, say, HK or SG, would be interest in someone with a Euro-centric EB experience ? I saw on LinkedIn some guys with no language skill holding Associate roles at one EB in Hong Kong, but unfortunately that's not the EB I got an offer from.
Are you natively fluent and literate in an Asian language (e.g. mandarin / Chinese)? If you are and you’re getting good experience in Europe, there are lateral opportunities that can open up for you in Asia down the line (in 1-3 years).
Things might have changed since my time there, but generally speaking, a person that has Asian language skill sets coupled with Western education and training is quite attractive. Huge bonus points for if you’re a Chinese National with those attributes. The western education and work training is for best practice reasons - if you’ve worked in London or NY for example, you’ll have had good training and best practice on the how-to’s for a deal process. And then bring that to your work in Asia. That can be valuable because, unless you’re working with very mature, sophisticated, international companies in Asia, it can be quite different (e.g. deals in Southeast Asia for example... smaller deals or maybe with a less globally savvy management team).
If you don’t speak an Asian language (or well) it’d be harder to work in Asia (maybe you can do Singapore since they would generally cover SE Asia where you could probably get away with English), but it gets harder to move up the ranks of you’re not someone they can groom (if you don’t understand Asian culture, or have ties and can network). Because ultimately as a banker it’s about relationships.
Lastly that point about potential laterals to Japan... HK or SG, maybe, though I would argue HK is much harder now (if you don’t speak mandarin, because HK coverage is largely China), but unless you speak Japanese (or you are a very seasoned banker with his/her own established Rolodex), it’s be hard to transfer there. Japan is very much its own market and requires people to specifically cover and develop experience/relationships in Japan. I would personally extend that to Korea as well.
Hi Kanon, thanks a lot for your reply.
I was business proficient in Japanese, but I don't speak Chinese at all. My language skill has been a bit rusty since I came back from Asia, and I really fear I might lose it completely if I stay away for years. I know that Australia is not the best place to keep up with my level, but I'd be more motivated to do so if I knew I had some good chance to be transfered back to Japan later on - I lived and worked for 2 years in Tokyo.
Well aware about the language and the relationship factor. If I take the EB, provided that I get converted into FT, I will start building my network of clients in Europe, which won't be useful in Asia. In the MM I got a FT offer from, I'd be part of a joint Sydney-Singapore team, and Australia is getting increasingly connected to the rest of Asia anyway - especially with China and SE Asia in the Energy/Infra field.
As I mentioned, the MM HR said they know at first I was more interested in HK/SG/JP, and since they encourage geographical mobility (true from what I've seen), they would be very open to discuss a transfer after a while.
How about lateraling to a BB in Australia after 2 years otherwise? I'm not in a rush to exit to PE, and that appears to me as a good way to improve my profile by adding the brand name I would lack if I refuse the EB.
I think you overestimate what people want from analyst with 2-3 years working experience. Be honest, nobody give a damn about your "network of clients" at this level. Buyside or banks just want to hire someone who can get the work done which can be proved as long as you have solid exposure to complex transactions. Some exposure to cross-border transaction is nice to have but not a must (also I don't see significant difference in terms of deal flow between Australia and East Asia vs. Europe and East Asia).
The real issue is language and culture as kanon said earlier. I don't know your background so won't judge your chance here, but the difficulties will be the same whether in Europe or Australia. Generally speaking Asian focus more on pedigree/brand names so that's why I vote for EB.
So just for clarity...the MM shop in Australia is a FT but the EB is an internship? I’m not familiar with timing with regards to recruiting in Europe. Let’s say you take the EB in Europe and you land the FT or you don’t, are you able to go back into the recruiting cycle and try for banks again (including ones with offices in Asia)?
I don’t think your first few years in IB locks you in or pigeonholes you to a particular region. But the quality of the experience in your first few years could help determine optionality on exit opps - say PE/HF. I don’t really think it impacts region so much. At least not if you’re coming from established Western markets IB with respected EB going to Asia. If it were the other way around (Asia —> US/Europe) it could be harder given there’s a wider range in quality with regards to your experience (as I mentioned Asia is a bit different and in some deals not quite as technical).
It kind of seems like you’ve already made up your mind and leaning one way... I guess I’d just make sure that there is a true avenue to Asia afterwards. While Australia is quite interconnected to Asia, I think internal transfers are also based on whether there is a need... and if that bank is not doing a lot of business in its Asian offices, you might not get that transfer.
If you have a second shot at FT recruiting if you take the EB internship in that it gives you another go at the banks (including BBs in Asia), then that could be something to consider. After the EB stint you’d be a more attractive candidate.
As for going to a BB in Australia after two years... if you do that, you’d probably have to put in some time before you can transfer. Seems like a lot of steps just to potentially get into Asia. I would say you’d try to look for opportunities in Asia after one year (with that bank or another one) and see if you can make the leap. Make some friends in Asia, be in the know before posts one which places are hiring.
Finally, re: your reply to Tech above on one EB in HK where there doesn’t seem to be a language barrier or someone joint from Europe. That’s right, there’s at least one EB like that. It’s because that team looks at SE Asia. But generally speaking, most teams that cover SE Asia are based in SG, and HK ones are typically China-centric.
Given you’re time constrained you might not be able to do this right away, but you should try and talk to some American or European Japanese bankers for their thoughts. By that I mean they were western educated or spent a bit of time in outside markets before working in Japan. They can provide you better perspective on how to get into Japan and where your language skills need to be.
Note: the EB I mention is not based in London (becomes quite easy to guess which one I am talking about), but London is not their biggest office in Europe anyway.
The widely accepted EBs are Lazard, Rothschild, PJT, Evercore, CVP, Moelis, Greenhill, PWP. Out of them, it is hard to imagine somewhere with larger regional EU office than in London. Lazard and Rothschild? If it is either these 2, international mobility is very good and both of them have solid presence in Singapore and Hong Kong.
Hi,
Yes, it is one of these two. Could you elaborate on their international mobility policy? I don't really find on LinkedIn any non-MD non-local M&A banker in HK/SG from Lazard/Rothschild.
I highly doubt Lazard has strong presence in HK (or even Asia)
Among those EBs, it seems only Evercore (SG only) and Rothschild have decent dealflows
Haven't read the replies but I will just quickly reply some of my thoughts
Australia is very far from "Asia"... There is a reason why they call it APAC rather than Asia
Chances of surviving in Asia except in SG is extremely tiny unless you are native in Mandarin or Japanese
It is very difficult to survive in the long run if you begin as a junior but can't write like a local. Things may be better at VP ED level when you have strong execution experiences but IBD in Asia is becoming more and more localized in terms of hiring
If you are at a top 10 bank in a small market and the platform does not have a robust dealflow (meanwhile I believe even top 20 in London would have ok dealflow if you are not at a bad team), you will have extremely low chance to lateral
Thanks @marc2, appreciate your input.
How about internal transfer within MM? From what HR said and from what I've observed, it seems possible (more in SG than HK or JP, but I don't mind SG at all). MM has big offices in HK and SG (2000 people in SG and more than 50 front-office M&A/CapMarkets bankers). After gaining more experience there, would there be higher chances to lateral as a senior Associate or VP? How about doing a MBA in SG/HK after a couple of years? And in case of successful lateraling into BB, what are the chances of being transfered to one of the two regional hubs?
The whole Summer Associate programme that happens in the US is not big in Singapore, if at all. The MMs you mentioned are still relatively small in Singapore and recruiting just isn't big at all. There is lots of talent at the junior level in Singapore coming in from the local Universities (+ Singaporeans studying in the top unis in US/UK wanting to come home).
(interned at a top BB FO last summer, but not in IBD. Just for reference, they took in about 5 for IBD)
How did you get recruited for the Australian MM? What was the process as an European student?
Networked with a MD in another APAC location who put me in touch with the local team.
Bump.
TL;DR: Lazard/Rothschild Paris off-cycle M&A vs RBS/RBC/BNPP/CACIB Sydney full-time investment banking (lots of project finance, some DCM, M&A seems really variable, slowly picking up, but deal flow is obv not comparable to Lazard/Rothschild; MD and HR mentioned possibilities to relocate to HK/Singapore). I'm not Asian and I do not speak Chinese.
Goals: relocate to HK/Singapore and acquire actual and valuable deal experience, interested in PE later but not obsessed by it, wouldn't mind working long term in a BB
Help please!
Qui optio velit culpa voluptatem magnam esse assumenda. Ab quo et et. Commodi nulla velit nobis quia architecto quo qui. Quasi natus molestias enim molestiae sunt saepe. Odio vel voluptatem voluptas temporibus assumenda.
Reprehenderit sapiente corrupti tempore vitae dolorem deserunt. Fugit ducimus distinctio voluptatem maiores illum voluptatem molestias voluptatem.
Voluptates ut id sunt. Ab doloribus qui architecto sit modi non repudiandae. Maxime voluptatem molestiae officia architecto. Et praesentium et suscipit ipsum odio autem.
Autem neque molestiae eaque saepe aut eum. Corporis voluptatem dicta officiis facere. Dolor quasi maiores omnis quia ut autem.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...