Do well on Wall Street without sacrificing integrity?

I'm still a prospective monkey so take my two cents with a pinch of salt.

From what I've seen, people in Finance are very intelligent and have often been the best of their class, and never really failed an exam (my housemate is a perfect example of this). As a result, they really think they are the dogs bollocks. So they can be complete pricks.

On the flip side, my boss this summer was a tough, but fair man. He expected hard work and nothing else. If you worked hard, you were rewarded.

So really it really depends on what you go into. Traders are notorious for being assholes (but then they have to be as that's a large part of their job).

Fair assessment. When you say "So they can be complete pricks." are you saying they're entitled to such behavior or that they simply tend to act like pricks?

No-one is entitled to act like a prick.

I interviewed with a trader who challenged me on inflationary theory knowledge and made me defend myself. THAT doesn't bother me. The guy just had an attitude of self importance you only see in high school quarterbacks. I wanted to laugh at him. Thankfully I got my years of being intimidated by that kind of behavior out in the military. Which makes me oddly comfortable with it.

The knowledge and intuition about markets is what attracts me to the street. The knowledge is insanely powerful. It's the culture that makes me want to vomit. It's like UFC. I used to box, so fighting technique is interesting, but the macho, energy drinking, affliction t-shirt wearing, bar fight starting a-holes who get into the sport ruin it for me.

I'm still deciding if I want to pursue a career in trading/analysis just for that reason.

Dude, with your background (I had the same background) you only have two choices:

1) Sell out and put up with the bullshit for the money. This is what I did. There wasn't a day I spent on the Street when I wasn't surrounded by insufferable dickheads. I contented myself with the money I was making and the fact that if I ever really lost my shit, I could snap someone's neck before they even knew I was behind them.

2) Go get a 40-hour a week gig and don't sweat it. You won't get rich but you'll get a lot more respect, have more time, and you probably won't have the urge to snap someone's neck (at least not as often).

One final thought. If you've ever seen the movie Tombstone, you'll remember the scene in the beginning when the Marshall was trying to recruit Wyatt Earp to be a sheriff when all Wyatt wanted to do was make his fortune. The Marshall told him, "I've never met a rich man who didn't have a guilty conscience." To which Wyatt replied, "I've already got the guilty conscience, Marshall. I might as well have the money too."

I think some of these stereotypes of traders is greatly exaggerated. After a summer in the industry sitting with almost all asset classes across the bank, sales and trading, sure you hear a lot of masochistic talk, bullshitting and arrogance, but these guys are alright! In order to get their foots in the door, these guys have to be extremely intelligent and accomplished and often this process weeds out the d bags. Sure, some of them slip through the crack but most of these guys are great, caring people with families who would put their necks on the line for their fellow co-workers.

What I have noticed is that to become an adequate trader, something you do have to learn to do is control your emotions. Finding the right balance of becoming a souless machine and keeping your calm in intense situations is hard but I think doable. I have noticed that I've become a much more calm, logical and disciplined person outside the trading floor after working with these guys for a summer.

Traders can be very different out of the interview setting. I'd definitely take that kids opinion with a grain of salt. Working with traders is far different than getting a stress test in an interview from traders who, for the most part, have no interest in/don't have the time to interview prospective candidates for an extended period of time. Yeah, some I guess can be assholes, but it is without a doubt not the norm-at least from my experience

What's not respectable about doing drugs?

My boss is fucking awesome. He's very chill, let's me use his season tickets, offered his vacation home in Europe for my trip to Monte Carlo next year. At work his advice is always helpful and he never puts anybody down. Just a cool dude, ideal for getting a few beers/drinks with and talking about sluts (does this count as putting someone down? they're just sluts).

Also, since when is $150k a "shit ton"? That's junior money.

Flake, if I had $150K a year for 3 years, I could retire, invest casually and live richly (not JUST in the monetary sense) the rest of my life. It's not the money, it's the freedom I'm after.

Why would you stop after 3 years? You know you would keep going, you just don't realize that right now.

How do you expect to retire on 450k at such a young age? I doubt your "casual" investing will be enough.

You just sound lazy, mediocre, and uninspiring. I wish I didn't read this thread because it's making me die inside.

There are PLENTY of vehicles for financial independence/freedom with almost a half a million dollars to work with. I just don't need a bunch of crap/status to be happy.

But hey, whoever has the most stuff when they croak wins.

but I DO understand that it would be tough to quit if I was making tons of cash. So I'll give you that. Consider it a test of character.

I just don't get how you're ready to quit because you had the misfortune of getting interviewed by a few douchebags. You just had some bad luck, so the fuck what? You're going to let one bad encounter dictate the rest of your life?

I like to think I'm a good reader of people, as I did some interrogation/questioning work overseas and have always understood people well. I can usually spot a piece of human garbage from a mile away. These guys hit rock bottom on my instant reading.

BUT, you make a good point that I shouldn't let a couple douchebags dictate my life.

Working in this field and keeping the proper perspective about life I can see being difficult. So to a degree I don't blame the people who become assholes after working in it for a while. My biggest fear is ignoring parts of my life that are important for some $$$$$$$$. If you're going to make sacrifices, make the right ones.

Also, I appreciate your input, as hotheaded as it may be.

Once most people start working in a prestigious wall street career- their ego just sky rockets. Its actually quite amazing. I've known people from college that were the most down-to-earth humble guys turn into pricks wearing gold-colored ties and smiling smugly at everyone "below" them. More then the cash (they don't really make an insane amount imo), it's the public perception that ruins their ego. They go back to university recruiting events and see kids clamoring for their attention- kids that in their day wouldn't even let them enter their frat house party.

Can someone define what this $150K/year means? Is this pre-tax income? Or is this after you get scalped by the tax vampires? Are we factoring out NYC cost-of-living? Even for thrifty IlliniProgrammer, it's tough to make it on less than $30K/year of living expenses.

Bottom line is that you're probably saving more like $30-60K your first year in NYC.

I used to think $450K was enough to retire on. But optimistically, that's going to generate 4% x $450K= $18K/year in income. In reality, you are going to need to pay for health insurance until you get medicare, which is going to run an average of $600/month over the next 40 years. This leaves you with $900/month to live on.

$450K at 25 will easily cover retirement at age 50 if you can manage 6% + CPI. It could also be a great supplement to your income/lifestyle if you decide to move back to the far reaches of the country and work a normal job.

buy-side quant out west- save 40k/yr out of undergrad......def work for years after

WizeNut, it is clear that you don't want to work in finance, and that you have a very warped, biased view of Wall Street. Since you have nothing positive to contribute, please do us all a favor and delete your account.

Like every field, you have your dicks, and you have your nice people. I think people make it out to be worse that it actually is, met some great people who work hard and are extremely intelligent, but also decent human beings. Met some dicks too... so just deal with it

oh and, 150k isn't a "shit-ton of money". If that's what the people you met were making, maybe they were just insecure and hence being dicks... bully mentality

I have the same background (military) as you and work in S&T. The macho culture is there, but just ignore it (You've done and seen things that easily makes them look like little girls). They are just there to 'One-up you' if you tell a story from back then.

Welcome to the Suck (if you decide to go this way).

I kind of like how this guy doesn't get defensive or pissed off at some of the posts, seems to have a high tolerance for it. At the same time, it's still making me wonder how bad the people he met with were, to make him come out here and complain about it.

I am starting to really agree with Flake's thought:

"You just had some bad luck, so the fuck what? You're going to let one bad encounter dictate the rest of your life?"

Hard medicine early is much better than a slow slog to ignorance.

Running into assholes early is probably a blessing.

Thanks fellas.

I have some really hard medicine right now.

DISH it out.

Do your worst

Oh I think you misunderstood.

Gotcha.

Hey you seem to have got alot of abuse on this thread. I'm looking to break into wallstreet too and I'm not a dick :p So try it out, whats the worst that can happen? Bail if it isn't for you and do something that'll make you happy.

If you made it through the military, finance should be more tolerable for you than it is for a lot of people who aren't used to long hours, lots of stress and taking orders. Depending on the firm/job/location/cycle, there are many variables and stress levels to consider: trading ops in a small firm in Boca in August is a helluva lot lower stress than being a NYSE floor trader during a crash. Also, it's what you make of it: one of my coworkers bitches and moans ALL DAY EVERY DAY, and the other is cool as a cucumber and we hang out all the time....it's what you make of it.

My personal recommendation is to find a way to go off the grid to offset the power differential or make peace with your coworkers and boss, any way you can - get creative. Life is full of good people, but there's also a lot of assholes and it's all about finding ways to avoid them, outsmart them or convince homeless people to push them into oncoming trains(just kidding). Good luck, and remember why anyone does this......for the $$$$$$

1. 150k isn't shit. First year analysts can make that with a decent bonus. In NYC middle class is ~300k

2. As far as being a "respectable person" you seem pretty judgemental. Who the fuck are you to tell your boss what he can put into his body or who he can stick his dick in? If you really are set on finance, I'd suggest lightening up, realizing that NYC is a playground for adults, and adopting a live and let live attitude. As long as the people I work with aren't assholes and their work doesn't suffer, I frankly don't give a shit what they do on their free time. Is there no drug use and infidelity in the military? That would be news to me. Anyway the vast majority of junior bankers are nerds who don't do anything but drink and some bros who maybe smoke weed once in a while. Most senior bankers seem to be old school straight edge types who would never touch drugs. There is absolutely no in your face drug culture on Wall Street (at least in banking, god only knows what those apes on the trading floors do all day), you'd get fired pretty quickly for openly being an "immoral" person.

3. I think you'd be surprised who you meet on Wall Street. It's considered pretty uncouth to only care about money.

I would go so far as to say that integrity is the single most highly valued commodity on Wall Street. So much shit happens on this crazy island of Manhattan that's based completely on personal relationships, and if you lie or screw someone... that will kill a career real quick. At the end of the day, investment banking is based completely on trust. As far as technical skills are concerned, we're pretty much interchangeable, people work with the bankers they trust.

I think you watch too many movies but it's your life, do whatever makes you happy. If you want a 40 hour week, do that. If you want to work with the smartest people and be exposed to the biggest deals, you're not going to be working 40 hours. That's life.

^^ That made a lot of sense. I liked it.

NYCbandar, I appreciate the unadulterated opinion. This thread has helped me understand the culture much better.

Keep it coming. Preferably every investment banker, trader and analyst on Wall st. would see this post and give me their opinion, telling me how it is.

I mean that. This is the closest way to getting to know how the Wall st. world is without working in it.

I am starting to think I really have read into the stereotypes too much.

Finally registered just to answer the OP's question.

There are a surprising number of Mormons on Wall Street who maintain the values you're talking about while doing well in their careers. The FT wrote about it here: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/938ff454-8a32-11df-bd30-00144feab49a.htm….

Not saying you should convert, just maybe watch out for bosses who went to BYU?

The hardest part about working in finance post-military is coming to grips with the idea that - unless you move back into public sphere are some future point - you have done the most meaningful work in your life before you turn 30. I know financial professionals provide valuable services to the economy - providing liquidity, raising capital, all that - but at its core the business is driven by the greenback and little else. It's hard to transition from daily association with well rounded, service-oriented young men to a daily grind with 30 something middle managers who know nothing beyond profit and loss, assets and liabilities (realize the stereotypes here but they are borne out of my own experience).

I didn't live a glamorous life in the military, didn't hit the bars and restaurants nightly, didn't belong to the exclusive clubs. But I felt really good putting my uniform on each morning and while I prefer Brooks Brothers to ACUs, that feeling of internal satisfaction is very hard to replicate in the private sector. I presume the money makes these feelings easier to deal with but I wouldn't exactly know - I'm making less in finance than I did as an O-3 in the army. Pretty frustrating.

OP, I really applaud your openess to critique. I also agree with you on certain points. Personal virtue beats making money for me. I think personal philosophies are a huge part of life, but are also manageable in a financial career. Agree with weezerdog as well.

And if you don't like you're banking job (presuming you get it), at least you did it. You can go work your 40hr/week job after and be happy knowing that you're doing what's truly best for you

What a shame that the stereotypes ring thus.

Let me help further them: Banking: I've met few bankers, in part because I don't do the same things they do, or not at the same time. The junior ones were preoccupied with status and "doing things right", appearing fashionable, etc. I talked to even fewer senior ones. One sticks to my mind as the most arrogant person I have ever met, but he was very well dressed (in the classical sense, with all the details correct) and oozed insecurity. Anyway, just throwing this in to bait the bankers. I love you guys really. And the banker chicks are so keen and insecure. Hehe.

Trading: I would be biased. I am odd in that I never worked for a bank, went straight into "prop" (if what we do can be called that), but I've sampled quite a few bank types now on the other end of the sales pitch. Trading wise, the arrogant ones were few and far between, at least where I work and those I met outside work. People who make money know it is hard and that the market humbles you on a daily basis. A certain amount of banter may occur in quieter times, but it is a way we antisocial beasts have to warm to each other. My boss didn't say anything private to me for 3 months after I arrived (including platitudes like "nice sunny weather outside huh?") - we only exchanged information about markets and that's how we both preferred it. Think the USMC's "speak fast and concisely". I stayed in NYC too short a time to sample the Gekko wannabes, or at least I didn't meet any, but I met plenty of quiet, friendly, humble guys who came to work in the morning and did their best to be smarter than several hundred thousand others like them. Haven't seen many strip clubs (although had quite a few nice meals at the expense of some sales guy's account); it's more likely to see most people on the desk either at work, or working from home, including on the weekends. Trading is a vocation.

Choose your firm wisely. Pick one with the right culture. I once knew a former Ranger, and he had a certain humility and sense of reality with quiet confidence about him that clashed with the regular army folks I know back in Europe, folks who prefer a certain brash arrogance you describe above. Spend time researching the firms, have a feel for the culture, look at those with results rather than polish (this will tend to be prop desks and funds rather than the sales part of the bank) and only apply to and accept places which match your values. Standard advice but it must be given.

I will add to the above comment a recommendation to read the 2nd most popular book in the US, Atlas Shrugged. You are correct that the protection of individual rights is a cornerstone of civilization and as such your military job filled you with the profound happiness one can only get from living your own values. But the Midas Mulligans, the capital allocators that stand at the very core of the economy are just as important as they ARE the core of the capitalist system which has produced civilisation out of the nightmare of the dark ages. Become what you risked your life for. It's worth it.

Yes, you can find a boss that is going to be a good guy and is a family man and all that, it's just not going to be at a large bank. They will still worry about #1 first (themselves), but generally care enough about their "underlings".

Your best bet is to go into more of a boutique setting where you work a lot less hours and people are generally more relaxed and calm. East coast vs West coast will make a difference as well as the West side is generally more laid back.

hahaha ur in the wrong biz op......this business is rife with fraud, corruption, deceit, abuse(human, drug). If fact the more that you volunteer to engage in these acts, the farther you will go. Sorry man, this is just reality.

WizeNut, thanks for your service.

I work in Wall St. and it is a very diverse environment in terms of personalities. Although I did not go through the Analyst/Associate hell because I joined after getting a PhD, I'd say that there is also a lot of posturing. In general junior people try to imitate whatever they assume is the required behavior of the generic "senior banker." But that's like thinking that if you twitch and act like Rain Man you'll get smart.

Most people are either good at math or absolutely fantastic brown-nosers and their personalities range from the really insecure and borderline sociopathic to the cool, calm, and collected that doesn't mistakenly equate authority with aggressiveness. Their not necessarily smart nor interesting to talk to. Many have gone from an upper middle class suburb (where they spent their time studying) to a good college and then straight to Wall St where they didn't see the light of day for a couple of years and where your job's outcome and your compensation are of the same nature: money. An architect gets to see the building he gets paid to design and a doctor heals people and gets cash; but the analyst does well if the trades based on her predictions produce money. This experience has an enormous effect on their sense of reality and what it is that matters. These are the people that start thinking that 150k is not a lot of money and that anyone who either makes that amount or thinks that is a lot MUST be an idiot.

What these people have in common is that they work very hard. And this is, IMHO, what is most important to consider. Given the hard work, many of these people - including several on this thread - make stuff up in their head to justify the enormous effort they exert. Money isn't enough for most of them because after a while, they don't have enough time to enjoy it. So some start thinking that they belong to this super smart elite who "belong" in Wall St. and nowhere else. The more benevolent ones try to repeat as a mantra that capital markets have enormous social benefits (which is true) and that those outweigh everything that's bad about them (which is not necessarily true). And the worse of them - usually the ones that studied economics only as undergrads - start thinking that the world IS just like it is in Mankiw's textbook and that everything can be equated to a dollar amount and that everyone is selfish. Bc they produce money and get compensated with it, they think that our job is similar to the job of a doctor: if a surgeon gets paid 60k for a complicated surgery that saves a life and my bonus is 60k, all the powerpoints I did this year MUST be as valuable as that life. These people can be very successful but although easy to control and manipulate, they are a pain to be around.

Personally, I find meaning and a sense of purpose outside of work. My wife and the kid we'll have are far more important than anything else and I work in this industry bc I am lucky to have the skills and education to make enough money to support my family, hopefully my parents when they retire, and afford to do the things I really like doing on my time off. Also, a few years from now I might be able to retire and get involved in politics. Although there are many people that think like me in the industry, many wouldn't say it openly bc those that believe in the Ec101 world would lose respect for them.

The work is fun, fast paced, at times exhausting, with a really high compensation. However, I do think that to have a happy life while in this industry you cannot look for a deeper type of fulfillment (like some architects feel when they see their buildings or some doctors feel when they see a patient recover) at work but find it in a hobby or the time you spend with your family.

Good luck looking for a job and just as one of the guys said above, make sure you spend time with your prospective co-workers before joining a firm.