How important is the choice of a Spouse to your career advancement?

datguy345
Rank: Orangutan | banana points 361

I am late 20s/early 30s and I have been starting to ponder this question.

I read somewhere that men with spouses make more than men without...I also know that a divorce can tear your wealth into shreds. I know a guy who had 1-1.5MM in the bank in a Low COL area, got divorced, had to pay alimony, child support, give up the house and has like $100-200k left.

Personally, while I would like a wife and maybe some kids someday, the risk of divorce and the hurt that comes with it outweighs the positives of marriage to me right now.

So I guess this is a multifaceted question:

  1. Is being married important to career advancement?
  2. How has a significant other helped/hurt your career prospects?

Comments (109)

May 10, 2018
datguy345:

I read somewhere that men with spouses make more than men without...

I've read the same and I'm not sure to what degree there's a causation issue. Wouldn't take much to convince me that men with higher earning potential are more likely to marry.

That said, lots of ways a spouse could help with career growth:
1) Perception boost - guy looks stable, and at least someone can stand him.
2) Added focus - with a partner to cover half of life's daily chores, you can devote more time to work.
3) Bigger network - I'm sure many spouses help introduce future business contacts.

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May 10, 2018
HighlyClevered:
datguy345:

I read somewhere that men with spouses make more than men without...

I've read the same and I'm not sure to what degree there's a causation issue. Wouldn't take much to convince me that men with higher earning potential are more likely to marry.

That said, lots of ways a spouse could help with career growth:
1) Perception boost - guy looks stable, and at least someone can stand him.
2) Added focus - with a partner to cover half of life's daily chores, you can devote more time to work.
3) Bigger network - I'm sure many spouses help introduce future business contacts.

Defintely in large part a causation confusion issue. Men who make very little money are not marriage material. That confuses those studies, big time. How many times have you heard a young person say they are going to wait until they're more financially stable? It happens a lot, which impacts the results as well.

That being said, people below who said that men are treated like kids until they're married with kids.....that sentiment probably has a ring of truth to it as well. I believe, but can't prove, that it's a relatively small effect though.

That being said, I would imagine the opposite for women. Being married most likely diminishes their career somewhat and with kids it almost certainly does.

Anyone disagree?

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May 14, 2018

One of the senior bankers I know is married to the Dean of a graduate school at one of the ivy's (e.g. Woodrow Wilson School at Princeton). Through his wife, he has had the opportunity to meet with the likes of Ray Dalio, Shinzo Abe, Caroline Kennedy, Henry Kravis, etc. Now, these are not names that your typical run-of-the-mill investment bankers chance upon in the course of their daily lives.

If this guy was a much better banker than he is, I believe he would be able to leverage this kind of access for some professional benefit. Unfortunately, he is kind of a fuck who flamed out of a BB in the 90's and has had limited professional success since then.

So to answer your question, I believe career advancement is much more about your professional abilities/luck rather than your choice of spouse. However, I will say that every professional (at some point) will need to convince someone (clients, bosses, investors, etc.) successful (i.e. with power) that they are good at their chosen profession. This is facilitated by being able to socialize with those people and those people (1) are likely married and (2) tend to socialize with the outside world alongside their spouse. As such, being part of a couple is an advantage.

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May 10, 2018

Choose none. You'll have an eventual nag who will look like ass in a decade. And when you get sick of it, the courts will pound you.

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MSFHQ

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Best Response
May 11, 2018

Every time you post about women, you always come off as a middle aged virgin.

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May 12, 2018

Shaming language nice ;)

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

May 12, 2018

+1 SB

/r/TheRedPill

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May 12, 2018

beat me to it

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May 13, 2018

So true it hurts.

May 10, 2018

I mean, it depends on the woman. If you have a trophy wife or someone nobody likes, it's gonna hurt you. But if you have a decent woman then it's definitely a help, if only because it makes socializing with your professional/social peers/higher-ups a lot easier. Boss invites you and your wife out to dinner? Great opportunity for your wife to make a great impression, which in turns reflects favorably on you.

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May 10, 2018

I'd also like to point out here that there is something to be said for being brutally honest with yourself about the level of "success" you have achieved at any given point and the due rewards that that "success" should come with.

Bob Smith, the founder and CEO of Vista Equity Partners, married Hope Dworaczyk in 2015 when he was 50+ years old and Vista had been "named the best performing private equity firm for the previous ten years." Hope Dworaczyk was ~30 at the time and, more importantly, his 2nd wife. At 50, Bob Smith could afford a costly divorce and a trophy wife who people might not like. It is very unlikely that he could have done so at 30-45.

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May 10, 2018

His trophy wife isn't much of a trophy... I've never understood the concept of a trophy wife anyway... just side-chic/ sugar daddy/ or gf her for a good time for a little while and move on. Why would I want to dilute my gene pool with some airheaded "trophy"?

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May 10, 2018

Why marry a trophy wife?? They are just a piece. Rent, don't own. Makes zero sense.

Masters in Finance HQ - The #1 site for everything related to the MSF degree!
MSFHQ

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May 10, 2018
BobTheBaker:

His trophy wife isn't much of a trophy... I've never understood the concept of a trophy wife anyway... just side-chic/ sugar daddy/ or gf her for a good time for a little while and move on. Why would I want to dilute my gene pool with some airheaded "trophy"?

She was a Playboy centerfold (had to Google her). Something tells me most of your side chicks aren't that hot.

Other than that, your analysis holds water.

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May 11, 2018


This is "diluting" your gene pool?

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May 11, 2018

Weak genetics. Man face. Fake tits. No natural muscle tone. Probably not a lot going on upstairs given her line of work.
I've been with way worse looking chicks than that, but I wouldn't marry them either.
low standards for sex
high standards for marriage
has worked well

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

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May 11, 2018

Keep throwing shit, you manchildren. Nothing like a girl who's all ligament and airbrush.
a

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

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May 12, 2018

There are girls who look like this that graduated from a UT Austin, Vandy, USC, and Tulane with solid futures. You're probably a chubby girl or a guy married to a chubby girl. You couldn't pull a girl this hot. You would probably behave in an autistic manner.

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

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May 12, 2018

My argument is that she's not very attractive. What does UT Austin have to do with anything?

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

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May 12, 2018

@GoldenCinderblock Let me quote you,

"Weak genetics. Man face. Fake tits. No natural muscle tone. Probably not a lot going on upstairs given her line of work.
I've been with way worse looking chicks than that, but I wouldn't marry them either.
low standards for sex
high standards for marriage
has worked well"

I'm saying there are hot girls who look like the girl in this picture, who went to good schools such as the ones I mentioned, and have strong career prospects. They're out their.

@GoldenCinderblock I had to reread the 2nd 1/2 of this post I quoted because there is a lot of truth here. Women will be quick to hook up with a swole gym-bro after the bar closes, while making the stable provider guy wait 3 months for sex. Oldest trick in the book. These are the same guys who get starfish sex once a month from their wife. When someone calls them out on their lame marriage they quickly say it's not all about sex. Or is it?? Lots of guys in here are giving you monkey poop because they fall under the Beta Bux category.

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

May 12, 2018
BankerLivesMatter:

There are girls who look like this that graduated from a UT Austin, Vandy, USC, and Tulane with solid futures. You're probably a chubby girl or a guy married to a chubby girl. You couldn't pull a girl this hot. You would probably behave in an autistic manner.

Dude - maybe like 1 girl at Vandy or Tulane looks like that. "Solid futures" lol

May 13, 2018

This girl is model hot sure. But there are plenty of smart, attractive girls at those schools. Splitting hairs huh ...

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

May 13, 2018

andddd then there's this

https://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/44/photos/503000/936x622/1126503.jpg

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

May 12, 2018

"Weak genetics"? That girl would crush your weak ass virgin skull with one tit

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May 12, 2018

What makes you say that? She looks like she can barely squat her own bodyweight.

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

May 13, 2018
GoldenCinderblock:

Weak genetics. Man face. Fake tits. No natural muscle tone. Probably not a lot going on upstairs given her line of work.
I've been with way worse looking chicks than that, but I wouldn't marry them either.
low standards for sex
high standards for marriage
has worked well

You are actually right on this. People throwing shit just live in their own delusional world.

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May 12, 2018

It certainly is. I'm not talking about how she looks. I'm talking about the potential intelligence (or lack thereof) of my children. Don't need some dumb Playboy bish to have my kids man.

p.s. dude is worth $4 billion, I've banged hotter. So, yea, not much of a trophy at $4 billion. Sorry if that hurts any feelings.

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May 13, 2018

She graduated high school early. That doesn't make her a NASA scientist, but surely she's not as dumb as you are making her out to be.

May 14, 2018

lol at bragging on an anonymous internet forum about banging playboy quality babes.....

May 16, 2018

Not bragging. The title of "playboy" doesn't mean shit to me. Point is there are every day women who aren't "models" that are as attractive/ more attractive, I've been lucky enough to pull a few. Point is, for $4 billion, he could've bought a better looking trophy.

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May 16, 2018

Sure buddy. Tell us more about the 10s you pull...

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May 10, 2018

My opinion - As a junior guy, I've alwaya felt that more senior guys really don't respect you as much until you're married with kids. Until then, you're just a "kid" in their eyes.

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May 10, 2018

I've seen this happen more than once. Kind of insane how perceptions can change seemingly overnight. Not saying that you can get away with shoddy work and become a family guy to get respect, but it helps you gain further credibility once you establish yourself.

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May 10, 2018

...

May 10, 2018

My only advice is to avoid gold diggers/whores whose only provided benefit is sex.

May 10, 2018

Marriage is like leasing a car. When the (desirable) features start to wear out and become outdated, it's time to find another.

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May 10, 2018

Just the person I would want to hear dating advice from

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May 10, 2018
MonacoMonkey:

Marriage is like leasing a car. When the (desirable) features start to wear out and become outdated, it's time to find another.

Really? Would you be willing to part with half of your net worth for a new and improved version?

There is an old fixed income joke that "a constant maturity wife is a short convexity trade".

Je suis un connard et je m'en fous

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May 11, 2018

Nerd

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May 15, 2018

Or just get a damn pre-nup. It's not that difficult. If the girl/woman won't sign, either put all your assets in a trust structure or don't marry her.

Love the people on here acting like every hot girl has no other redeeming feature, or that marrying a gold digger trophy wife is somehow the same as signing away half of your net worth and future earnings. This shit has been figured out, guys.

May 15, 2018
Ozymandia:

Or just get a damn pre-nup. It's not that difficult. If the girl/woman won't sign, either put all your assets in a trust structure or don't marry her.

There is an old saying that first marriage is a victory of curiosity over common sense, while the second one is a victory of optimism over bad experience. In general,
(a) many people get married when they do not really have any assets to speak of.
(b) most people get married before they develop a brain
(c) pre-nup does not really protect assets accumulated in common **

Combine (c) with either (a) or (b) et voila, you have a recipe for small disaster. Add kids to the mix (I did not get a chance, but I could just imagine) and you have a large disaster ***. Even with a solid prenup, I've yet to hear anyone that managed to sail through his divorce.

** you can try to specify it, but it's hard. For example, when I met my ex, I had no idea I would ever work in finance.
*** in my case, we literally had to get a lawyer involved over custody of the dog; there is a visitation schedule and all

Je suis un connard et je m'en fous

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May 16, 2018

I mean, if you plan your financial future poorly, or just plain wrong, you have no one to blame but yourself. Besides, maybe you (generic you) wouldn't have transitioned to finance without the moral and possibly financial support of your former spouse. Assets accumulated in common should be split; to act as though everything you gain in the workplace is wholly unrelated to the rest of your life is naive, and he/she plays a role in that.

And while you make good points, the general shitty comments in this thread are all about treating women as some combination of objects with a shelf life and/or potential threats to everyone's VAST future fortune. If that's the opinion, then protecting yourself against those things is easy, because it presupposes there will never be a meaningful emotional relationship involved. You had a disaster because you built a life with your significant other and then had to untangle it. Most of college kids on here can't conceive of that.

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May 16, 2018
Ozymandia:

I mean, if you plan your financial future poorly, or just plain wrong, you have no one to blame but yourself. Besides, maybe you (generic you) wouldn't have transitioned to finance without the moral and possibly financial support of your former spouse. Assets accumulated in common should be split; to act as though everything you gain in the workplace is wholly unrelated to the rest of your life is naive, and he/she plays a role in that.

I completely misunderstood your point. All of the above is true, I was just pointing out that a pre-nup does not protect your future earnings (and, frankly, it should not) and a pre-nup is not going to make for a painless divorce. Even if the asset division is pre-determined, there will be other issues - kids, dog etc. In my case, staying friends with my ex was more important than whatever assets we split.

Ozymandia:

And while you make good points, the general shitty comments in this thread are all about treating women as some combination of objects with a shelf life and/or potential threats to everyone's VAST future fortune. If that's the opinion, then protecting yourself against those things is easy, because it presupposes there will never be a meaningful emotional relationship involved. You had a disaster because you built a life with your significant other and then had to untangle it. Most of college kids on here can't conceive of that.

Indeed. There is, apparently, a whole movement about it, with it's own terminology and discussion groups. Personally, I think that this shitty attitude towards women reflects the general lack of character, intelligence and self esteem. If you are smart, successful and confident, you will look for those traits in your spouse too.

Je suis un connard et je m'en fous

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May 16, 2018
Mostly Random Dude:

I completely misunderstood your point. All of the above is true, I was just pointing out that a pre-nup does not protect your future earnings (and, frankly, it should not) and a pre-nup is not going to make for a painless divorce

Yep. But if you look at some of the trophy wives being discussed... well, Hope Dworacyzk may be a gold digger or a trophy wife. She could also be a thoughtful, intelligent person who is also beautiful and found that modeling in front of a camera was a more lucrative and easier career than modeling in front of a computer screen. Either way, Robert Smith is going to have no trouble at all shielding as much of his fortune as he wants from her. And if makes another 4 billion in the next 15 years and they divorce? Well, my heart won't bleed for him only walking away with half of it.

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May 11, 2018

It's very, very important in my experience.

Met my wife when in my 20s and we just marked 15 years. She started as a tax accountant and grew to a very senior advisory role at a Family Office. When I met this girl I thought long and hard about whether we should get serious. I was a young trader at the time and probably making 2x what she was...that has since flipped.

Also, pedigree and social class were not issues. We are both strivers who come from humble backgrounds. I suppose if one of us were from the Brahmin caste it might not have worked so well but we both started low and aimed high.

15 years in and one of my favorite things about our relationship is that she is literally my partner....in the GFC we started buying real estate and she helped me negotiate and has handled all of the taxes and LLC stuff. The ups and downs in our careers have offset each other, and when it comes time for one of us to strategize about our short and long term career moves we each have someone we can trust 100% who understands the financial world.

When the time is right there is also a very good chance that I could get her clients to back the right venture, but I am holding that card really tightly because I will only get one shot with that and it needs to be a home run.

Overall I have done much better than if I had married some smoking hot Jello shot girl. Or I could have married a very rich girl but if she were an idiot I never would have lasted this long. The things that matter in year 1 fade and you will find that having the sorts of things I have described above are major assets if you are serious about trying to improve your lot in life.

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May 12, 2018

This is a secure man in a healthy relationship. Everyone could take a page out of this guy's book.

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May 13, 2018

This is what a solid, well considered marriage looks like. Something to aim for. +1

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May 11, 2018

Having a teammate for life is dope. I use my wife as a low-key assistant too. She's better at finding deals than I am.

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

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May 11, 2018
GoldenCinderblock:

Having a teammate for life is dope.

I'm with Goldie on this one. My wife is awesome, and my life is way better with her in it. I don't own her, she's not submissive, she doesn't work for me, and she has as much agency in our life as I do. I think that idea is really uncomfortable for some men, and I've watched plenty of my friends who were looking for "an equal partner" end up really happy with a "sidekick / assistant." Nothing wrong with that, that's fine, to each their own.

To link back to your question, the impact of a spouse on your career mirrors their impact on your life: if they're awesome, it helps; if they're window dressing, it doesn't matter; and if they're a shrieking harpy, it probably hurts. YMMV.

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May 11, 2018

"Who you marry, which is the ultimate partnership, is enormously important in determining the happiness in your life and your success and I was lucky in that respect." - Warren Buffett

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/02/warren-buffett-say...

"The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money"

  • Margaret Thatcher
May 11, 2018
whitecollarandsuspenders:

"Who you marry, which is the ultimate partnership, is enormously important in determining the happiness in your life and your success and I was lucky in that respect." - Warren Buffett

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/02/warren-buffett-say...

You guys need to get over Buffett. He talks this down home game, but he was basically a polygamist.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/w...

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May 18, 2018

[/quote]You guys need to get over Buffett. He talks this down home game, but he was basically a polygamist.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/w...
[/quote]

I'm glad someone brought this up. I read some article the other day that contained that quote from, So I went over to his Wikipedia article to learn a bit more about his personal life. Apparently, his wife essentially left him in middle age (she moved away, though they didn't officially divorce) and presumably was sleeping with other men (?) and then brought some other woman back and introduced her to Buffett, and three of them went around together and sometimes presented themselves as a happy family, and then Warren married the second woman after his first wife died. He was apparently so grief-stricken he didn't attend the funeral. It seems like he loved the first wife (probably to a fault) but Dick Fuld is spot on, Buffett was essentially a polygamist.

I'm not trying to throw stones at the guy, but I'm more interested in his advice on value investing than his advice on relationships.

"From now on, I want you to put an equal amount of blueberries in each muffin." -Sam "Ace" Rothstein

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May 11, 2018

I will say with certainty that your superiors will treat you differently for not being married, and to a lesser extent having kids.

My counterpart is married without kids and I have a girlfriend who I live with. He consistently brings up his wife and in-laws in various anecdotes and my boss will always nod in agreement. I don't even like bringing my girlfriend up because of how childish it sounds and my team will dismiss it as far less relevant.

Also, for anybody who is 25 or under out there I would like to point out how drastically life changes as you approach and pass 30. Your entire social circle is married, as will your peers your age. Sure, there are a few who are still single, but they are men without an island. Investors, bosses, CEOs like stability and characteristics they see in themselves. When their money is on the line, they dont like outlaws, oddballs or womanizers at the helm, especially in the age of #metoo allegations.

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May 12, 2018

Excellent thread topic. Very interesting and relevant.

Take this nonfiction case as an example:
A financial department has two managers, each overseeing a different economic sector. Give or take a few years, they are the same age and have been with the company for the same amount of time. Both managers express similar levels of leadership and motivation. One is happily married with kids, but a little less socially outgoing while the other is very socially outgoing, but concluding the latter stage of a divorce. The divorcee is enjoying the new single life and is clearly having a great time. Both parties still show similar production and numbers.
Inevitably, a board seat is vacated due to a retirement and the two managers come into question for the position. Who gets it? The answer is obvious. Even with almost identical numbers and work productivity, the man with a stable home life gets the board seat.

In my opinion, this happens every time. I also liked jss09's response and believe this scenario validates his/her statement.

Disclaimer - I am 25 and single, so this argument kind of goes against me lol. Can't argue with facts and simple psychology, though.

May 12, 2018

Having friends sounds complicated. I have a good wife and a good CPA. I'm set.

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

May 12, 2018
jss09:

When their money is on the line, they dont like outlaws, oddballs or womanizers at the helm, especially in the age of #metoo allegations.

Meanwhile, according to my old man, easily 50% of the c-suite cheats on their spouses. Virtue-signaling hypocrites.

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May 12, 2018

Why would I marry? It's betting some chick half my net worth that I will love her forever. - GSElevator

"She's hot, but not 'risk half my net worth' hot." - GSElevator

May 12, 2018

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May 12, 2018

it's literally all relative.

for me, I see my friends in long term relationships, their partners just drag them down...Either they want to look good in front of their girlfriends OR their girlfriends nag at them to buy nice cars, nice houses and have kids way sooner than what they would've otherwise chosen.

these guys are essentially over leveraged. all in mid to late 20s, they pay for big ass cars, expensive houses, and need to spend a lot of time with their kids. but they think they are going to be hot shot entrepreneurs... needs some sacrifice to get there, which I dont see them doing at this point.

I'd prefer to have a women when im in my mid thirties (women sexual market value peaks at 23, mens at 36), that way I'll have theoretically progressed in terms of prestige, money, and can afford private school for the kids.

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May 12, 2018

The effects probably vary depending on the industry as well.

I recently felt like one particular woman inspired me to step up my trading and reduce all the childish things I would do on a average day. Clearly needing something like this to step up my game shows that I am still not a good trader, but at the same time having an inspiration to push yourself to new plateaus is nice.

May 13, 2018

Kinda like when you're at the gym. A chick uses the machine next to you. You throw on an extra plate haha.

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

May 12, 2018

Much like the markets, marriage presents a complex risk profile. Making the right choice can be uplifting and extremely rewarding. Making the wrong choice... well we all know how that can end. Deciding what is acceptable risk and what is not is also very complex and will vary among participants so while fun to discuss, the other person always thinks they know best and you might as well be shoveling water! :)

"I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing. "
-GG

May 12, 2018

This thread is hilarious. I especially like the GSelevator quotes because they are explicitly meant to make fun of the absurdity and childishness of those types of comments... And yet still half the comments in here are explicitly people talking exactly like the sexually frustrated 19 year olds it's meant to make fun of.

The answer is, of course, like most things in life, it depends. If you're past analyst age and talking like your some PUA guy with women taking my monies and being objects, going out to bars and clubs regularly in your 30s and 40s, etc etc than no one will take you seriously. You'll come across like a child that can't handle responsibility. That said if you're put together, date age appropriate women, and generally try to relate in other ways you'll probably be fine. It's also true that choosing the right woman can enhance your career. Relationships are like team sports, you are going to serve different roles, but being able to complement each other and picking correctly means the two of you will be able to achieve more together than you would apart.

The only real advice I have is wait to get married. You mature significantly from 25 to 32 (usually) and because of that you make smarter decisions. Everyone quotes divorce rates of close to 50%, but if you're a highly educated 30 year old in your first marriage, divorce rates drop closer to 10-20%.

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May 12, 2018
AllDay_028:

date age appropriate women

Why would a successful man date women his own age? I don't mean you have to rob cradles, but I see no reason a successful guy in his 30s should be dating 30-something hags with baggage who are 5-10 years out of their prime.

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May 13, 2018

Age appropriate is different than exact age.

That said, I know you're 18 since you were asking what college go to this week, so I have more than a decade on you, but the notion that all women in their 30s are hags is hilarious. The hottest women in my office are 33 and 29 respectively (and one hot 25 year old HR chick). All three are single. Go to Greenwich or Tribeca, spend a few minutes at a workout class there, tons of these women are smoking. And The average marriage age isn't until ~30 now in NYC and it's constantly creeping higher, so you arent exactly missing out by waiting.

Also, if you are dating in your upper 20s like I was, you'll slowly start to realize how fucking boring most 23 and 24 year olds are. They might be a ton of fun to go to a club with, but as a general rule a 23 year old has no idea about life (this goes for both men and women). This isn't an insult to you, but i would probably find having a conversation with anyone your age to be literal torture. I laugh at how stupid and ignorant I was at that age. The analysts that come into my office are all from top schools with great grades, they're still all morons who can't hold a conversation about anything other than their frat, some shitty bar/club, or an excel model. They do their job fantastically and I'm sure we have some of the best analysts on the street, but they just have no life experience or defined opinions and interests that are at all engaging. This is true of basically everyone at that age.

Dating a hot 28-30 year old with a successful career and has lived a little is always exponentially more fun on the aggregate, because relationships are about significantly more than the PUA/redpill Idiots define it as. You'll realize as you get older how dumb all that stuff is (believe me, when I was in a frat in college I thought it was kinda interesting too). And the ones who don't realize how dumb it is are generally wasting away at meat packing clubs in their 30s while most of the peers will start to consider them losers who can't grow up, passing them by in career success, making a meaningful network, and generally setting themselves up for long term success. It might not always be true or fair, but there is a strong correlation there.

Also, I know there are a lot of comments about people getting in poor shape, but that's not my experience. Once you get past the binge drinking and going out every night of every weekend stage, it's easy to stay in awesome shape. My wife and I, at ~30, are in the best shapes of our adulthood. Her probably of her life and me since I was in college (i played a D1 sport). And I'm doing that while being in banking. It really is all about diet.

This was a long round about way to say, In reality, it's a YMMV thing, but as a general rule, age will likely bring you a little more clarity on your original question.

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May 13, 2018

Serious question: at what age do people stop taking Instagram/Snapchat photos of their food?

May 13, 2018

Never. And it's fucking infuriating. Also old people who turn on their phone flashlights in nice, dimly lit restaurants make me want to euthanize them.

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May 13, 2018
AllDay_028:

Age appropriate is different than exact age.

That said, I know you're 18 since you were asking what college go to this week, so I have more than a decade on you, but the notion that all women in their 30s are hags is hilarious. The hottest women in my office are 33 and 29 respectively (and one hot 25 year old HR chick). All three are single. Go to Greenwich or Tribeca, spend a few minutes at a workout class there, tons of these women are smoking. And The average marriage age isn't until ~30 now in NYC and it's constantly creeping higher, so you arent exactly missing out by waiting.

Also, if you are dating in your upper 20s like I was, you'll slowly start to realize how fucking boring most 23 and 24 year olds are. They might be a ton of fun to go to a club with, but as a general rule a 23 year old has no idea about life (this goes for both men and women). This isn't an insult to you, but i would probably find having a conversation with anyone your age to be literal torture. I laugh at how stupid and ignorant I was at that age. The analysts that come into my office are all from top schools with great grades, they're still all morons who can't hold a conversation about anything other than their frat, some shitty bar/club, or an excel model. They do their job fantastically and I'm sure we have some of the best analysts on the street, but they just have no life experience or defined opinions and interests that are at all engaging. This is true of basically everyone at that age.

Dating a hot 28-30 year old with a successful career and has lived a little is always exponentially more fun on the aggregate, because relationships are about significantly more than the PUA/redpill Idiots define it as. You'll realize as you get older how dumb all that stuff is (believe me, when I was in a frat in college I thought it was kinda interesting too). And the ones who don't realize how dumb it is are generally wasting away at meat packing clubs in their 30s while most of the peers will start to consider them losers who can't grow up, passing them by in career success, making a meaningful network, and generally setting themselves up for long term success. It might not always be true or fair, but there is a strong correlation there.

Also, I know there are a lot of comments about people getting in poor shape, but that's not my experience. Once you get past the binge drinking and going out every night of every weekend stage, it's easy to stay in awesome shape. My wife and I, at ~30, are in the best shapes of our adulthood. Her probably of her life and me since I was in college (i played a D1 sport). And I'm doing that while being in banking. It really is all about diet.

This was a long round about way to say, In reality, it's a YMMV thing, but as a general rule, age will likely bring you a little more clarity on your original question.

Good points

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

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May 13, 2018

The notion that woman hit their prime in their 30s in laughable. Perhaps you have a pair of OUTLIERS in the office. You enjoy the old spinsters outside of their prime birthing years, mate. Not to mention consider all the broken relationships that have screwed their heads up, i.e., trust/mental/emotional/ex baggage. Plus higher likelihood of abortions and STDs. "Smoking hot" single and childless in their 30s = major red flags. Sounds like you're letting a crush on an office chick cloud your assessment here.

A successful man in his 30s should date 24-28yo. My dad says single women turn loony tunes once they hit 29.

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May 13, 2018
jeep_NoVa:

"Smoking hot" single and childless in their 30s = major red flags.

Its not really like that, a lot of girls focus on their career in NYC. I used to hang out with these two HBS chicks and one of them joked that girls just left the city to get their MRS at an MBA. But, it was true. She worked in NYC for most of her 20s and then went to HBS and met her husband there.

Also, if a girl is studying law or medicine in the city, she won't even finish school until her mid to late 20s.

So after working a couple of years, she gets married. Sounds pretty typical.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

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May 13, 2018

My older sisters are skinny and well put together, one in law school, other in medical school, and they met their future spouses in law school and undergrad, respectively.

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May 13, 2018
jeep_NoVa:

My dad says single women turn loony tunes once they hit 29.

What else does daddy say

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

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May 13, 2018

He tells me to date sporty girls with brains and ambition, who go to church. But I like non-sporty hipsterish girls, too. As long as I avoid coke trash he's cool.

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May 13, 2018

There is not a single thing in your post that an actual adult would say. Which, of course, QED and all that.

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May 14, 2018

"My dad says...." is all I need to hear

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May 14, 2018
FrkWhite:

"My dad says...." is all I need to hear

lol it actually reminded me of Adam Sandler on Waterboy:

"Momma says .. momma says"

//i.pinimg.com/originals/76/2[/embed]f/70/762f7067e2b90dd3072cc3b5a9e3a7fc.jpg

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

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May 13, 2018

Good for you for having a happy marriage, but you just wrote a lot of words for no reason. Any successful, put together 30-something guy is a moron if he dates a 30-something girl. There are plenty of engaging, smart, pretty, 25yo chicks out there, and they won't be harping on a guy to get married, have kids and buy a McMansion all within a 2 year period.

Stop projecting your lame ideas on everyone else.

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May 13, 2018

I look at my older female cousins and they seem to start to look old past late 20s. Like not fat but just older, the youth is gone and they start to look mom-ish even if they don't have kids. And they turn super corny and try-hard if they're still looking for a husband. Desperate as clock ticks away on the last few eggs, I assume.

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May 16, 2018
jeep_NoVa:

I look at my older female cousins

dude

May 13, 2018
AllDay_028:

The only real advice I have is wait to get married. You mature significantly from 25 to 32 (usually) and because of that you make smarter decisions. Everyone quotes divorce rates of close to 50%, but if you're a highly educated 30 year old in your first marriage, divorce rates drop closer to 10-20%.

Isn't the the agreed perspective that your brain fully matures at ~25? Surely there's not a huge amount of maturing that can happen from 25 to 32, well at least anymore than prior to being 25.

May 13, 2018

Life experience. Around 25, once people have fully matured physically, is when they start have broader perspectives.

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May 12, 2018

Only total nerds ask marriage advice on an online forum. Enjoy the back office

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May 12, 2018

this is the most WSO post of all time...

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May 12, 2018

My VP is married in his early 30s with two kids. His hair is starting to recede more and more, and he's been gaining weight over the months. He did what is "socially the right thing," and not what he wanted for himself. I'm mid-20s and he loves to hear about my dating stories. I have friends that are engineers and complain about their wives. I'm sitting there like bro you make near 6-figures, and could prob date an entire roster of chicks. Idk lol I wouldn't ever trade places with these guys.

I want to be the Banker version of Harvey Specter with awesome travels and plenty of hot chicks into my late 30s. Life is way too short to succumb to what mainstream politically correct culture expects. It's hilarious that you're not considered a "real man" because you don't have a wife & kids. Take on more responsibilities when I don't need to? No thanks. I want kids and a family ONE day, but for now I think I'll choose to live my dreams and my desires.

Truth bomb: there are guys who are successful, highly attractive, and can pull women with ease. Men want to be him. Women want to f*** him. And their aura makes everyone feel insecure. Of course you can't have that at the firm.

I currently work at a boutique where the culture is a bit more relaxed. When I decide to switch to a MM Bank I deff won't be sharing any dating stories, & keep it 100% politically correct to cover my ass. Having to put on this facade isn't that hard. If you don't say shit, they won't know shit, can't start shit.

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

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May 12, 2018
BankerLivesMatter:

My VP is married in his early 30s with two kids. His hair is starting to recede more and more, and he's been gaining weight over the months. He did what is "socially the right thing," and not what he wanted for himself. I'm mid-20s and he loves to hear about my dating stories. I have friends that are engineers and complain about their wives. I'm sitting there like bro you make near 6-figures, and could prob date an entire roster of chicks. Idk lol I wouldn't ever trade places with these guys.

I want to be the Banker version of Harvey Specter with awesome travels and plenty of hot chicks into my late 30s. Life is way too short to succumb to what mainstream politically correct culture expects. It's hilarious that you're not considered a "real man" because you don't have a wife & kids. Take on more responsibilities when I don't need to? No thanks. I want kids and a family ONE day, but for now I think I'll choose to live my dreams and my desires.

Truth bomb: there are guys who are successful, highly attractive, and can pull women with ease. Men want to be him. Women want to f*** him. And their aura makes everyone feel insecure. Of course you can't have that at the firm.

I currently work at a boutique where the culture is a bit more relaxed. When I decide to switch to a MM Bank I deff won't be sharing any dating stories, & keep it 100% politically correct to cover my ass. Having to put on this facade isn't that hard. If you don't say shit, they won't know shit, can't start shit.

Also remember, by the time you want to settle down you'll be dating younger divorcees (in their mid late 30s / issues) or chicks that are much younger than you and you have little commonality with...and that's okay , but it's not ideal to many people. Your VP is a poor example - yes their are married guys out there that are pudged out and weak but there are those that take care of themselves, are crushing it at good firms and still maintain close friendships with other like minded folks and their college buds. There is such a thing as being too old to have kids for men as well - children require extraordinary amounts of energy, if you want to have your first one in your 40s good luck - we were meant to do that when we had the energy of an 18 year old lol.

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May 12, 2018

I could begin settle mid-30s with a girl mid-20s. You're playing by the societal script and not what's best for you as a man. By mid-30s most guys will be established in their careers, more likely to be done with education, had time to pay down debt, travel, and experience in dealing with women by dating. Dating skills are very underrated and is the reason why many guys end up in bad situations with women. Also, if you've achieved all of the above wouldn't you have more to offer a potential spouse if you choose to marry and your future children? Raising children takes a lot of commitment best to be prepared & not winging it as you go.

I know guys who are in their 50s with teenagers it's not like as a man you have some biological time clock that prevents you from seeding healthy kids. Anyways, think about how many guys do you know in happy marriages. I'm not referring to the marriages where the couple fights behind the scenes and husband gets starfish sex once a month.

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

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May 12, 2018

you've read the rational male right?

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May 12, 2018

I've read many times. It's a must read for any man in 2018.

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

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May 13, 2018

yeah its great. I need to read it again. getting monkey shits from beta orbiters.

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May 13, 2018

This site is full of them. Go to some meet ups to see who comprises posters. I'm surprised there are 4 married, non virgins on this site total.

Fucking joke as always. I feel bad for anyone taking advice from the collection of closet furries posting here.

Masters in Finance HQ - The #1 site for everything related to the MSF degree!
MSFHQ

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May 13, 2018

@TNA The difference is that they grew up under parents that are now 50 years old & their parents dated in a time where the dating culture was light-years ahead of current state of affairs. They probably find us to be "misogynistic," but to be honest I don't see relationships idealistically because of what I've seen. I keep it 100. They'll learn or they'll learn the hard way. Regardless they will learn.

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

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May 12, 2018
BankerLivesMatter:

I could begin settle mid-30s with a girl mid-20s. You're playing by the societal script and not what's best for you as a man. By mid-30s most guys will be established in their careers, more likely to be done with education, had time to pay down debt, travel, and experience in dealing with women by dating. Dating skills are very underrated and is the reason why many guys end up in bad situations with women. Also, if you've achieved all of the above wouldn't you have more to offer a potential spouse if you choose to marry and your future children? Raising children takes a lot of commitment best to be prepared & not winging it as you go.

I know guys who are in their 50s with teenagers it's not like as a man you have some biological time clock that prevents you from seeding healthy kids. Anyways, think about how many guys do you know in happy marriages. I'm not referring to the marriages where the couple fights behind the scenes and husband gets starfish sex once a month.

I'm not playing by any script and I have no interest in what you do. And look 35 isn't that late so I hear that, I am 35 and was married in my 30s. A 50 year old and with an 18-19 year old is a total loser and embarrassingz My comment on kids is your energy level at 40 and 50 is really rough for raising kids. You don't read well, but not my issue. Good luck, enjoy them instathots

May 13, 2018

Marrying early (age 23-25) some dime you met in college is the way to go, imo.

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May 13, 2018

My old boss hit 40, had two kids (of course) and his wife was pretty hot and didn't work. All he did was complain about her od spending habits, poor sex life, and obnoxious nagging. In fact, he had a partner that was recently married, one on the way and had similar complaints about his wife. I think these guys who marry a hot wife tend to underestimate the institution of marriage, because most of them are just 5's trying to live up to perfect lives 8 or 9s from wealthy suburban areas, and they wonder why it's so hard to hack it in their personal lives.

If they all ended up divorced within the next 10 years, it wouldn't surprise me at all. You can't build on a shitty foundation.

But I also tend to view men who can get married as more trustworthy and women as less of a burden on society when married. Women tend to depend on other people for emotional support, as well as have motherly instincts that enable bad situations. Men are very sketchy and rambunctious. Most men are constantly scheming on how to do something which can be good from a decision making standpoint, but also reckless when left unchecked. If you put these two negatives together, you get a more balanced situation.

It also signals that this guy is acting under conservative goals if there's a woman he's trying to take care of. Not to mention, women who are great always make the man seem more desirable, because women want him to as there's the association of attractiveness by already being in a relationship and then men always tend to respect a guy more by who he's banging.

"Loser terrorists" & "bad hombres"

"Typical candidates are those who attended a top-tier academic institution"
-Most job applications

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May 13, 2018

TLDR; Men by themselves are clearly up to no good & are EVIL. Women are caring creatures & are children that are dependent on other people ... Because they have no educational opportunities, can't work, and also have no brain to develop themselves. Combine them together so that they must both act "right."

It's like you understand these dynamics but want to hold onto your fairy tale at the same time. Can't have both. Are you saying the dimes or hotties aren't worthy of being taken care of?? She knows he's only with her because her rack. Is the answer get an ugly or average looking women? NOOOO. It's become a fucking man. Not a spineless wallet.

This forum is a hotbed for future dutiful husbands who "serve" their wives. Prestigious future cucks. Bet your old boss' wife spent a lot of time with her personal trainer.

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

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May 13, 2018
BankerLivesMatter:

TLDR; Men by themselves are clearly up to no good & are EVIL. Women are caring creatures & are children that are dependent on other people ... Because they have no educational opportunities, can't work, and also have no brain to develop themselves. Combine them together so that they must both act "right."

It's like you understand these dynamics but want to hold onto your fairy tale at the same time. Can't have both. Are you saying the dimes or hotties aren't worthy of being taken care of?? She knows he's only with her because her rack. Is the answer get an ugly or average looking women? NOOOO. It's become a fucking man. Not a spineless wallet.

This forum is a hotbed for future dutiful husbands who "serve" their wives. Prestigious future cucks. Bet your old boss' wife spent a lot of time with her personal trainer.

I said that my perception is that men who can marry and show it by actually doing it, make themselves look like more attractive partners to men and women for different respective reasons.

You're reading too many weird things into the above statement that aren't actually there.

BankerLivesMatter:

This forum is a hotbed for future dutiful husbands who "serve" their wives. Prestigious future cucks. Bet your old boss' wife spent a lot of time with her personal trainer.

Is this supposed to offend me? I'm saying the same thing that their marriage was a sham, and so they will probably just call it quits after a few more years.

BankerLivesMatter:

It's like you understand these dynamics but want to hold onto your fairy tale at the same time. Can't have both. Are you saying the dimes or hotties aren't worthy of being taken care of?? She knows he's only with her because her rack. Is the answer get an ugly or average looking women? NOOOO. It's become a fucking man. Not a spineless wallet.

I don't believe that attractiveness is a good quality to use in selecting a spouse. You might be drawn to a woman because she's attractive, and that might make you more likely to approach her and spark up a conversation, but that doesn't mean it's a good partner.

Is she bangable? Sure. But, if you're looking for someone to spend your life with, you'd think people would select based on more meaningful qualities. How many divorces really come about because one person changed their mind about how attractive the other person is? People just have these false senses of themselves in this highly convoluted and noisy modern society.

You probably think you want to take care of some chick, but what if you cut your own quality of life needs to compensate, get fat and start wearing Crocs everywhere, and she decides that you're no longer meeting her expectations, even though she's still hot and gets to go nuts with the Amex so she cheats or files for divorce?

What if you both go ham online shopping trying to keep each other happy and meet each other's physical expectations, but you forget about the kids, they come out as pill popping teenagers, your wife gets frustrated, and divorces?

How about your wife wants to keep you happy so she buys a bunch of nice shit, it becomes run of the mill to you, you don't pay attention, and so she sleeps with the gardener who can't wait to fuck your 10 of a wife because he's never going to get the chance and she loves the attention you're not giving her?

There's an infinite number of ways that trying to get a perfect, hot wife can go wrong with some weird transactional exchange. You should just focus on being a better person and if a woman matches that, then marry.

I noticed from some of your above posts you don't really seem to take marriage seriously. But even just reading your posts I lack trust in what you're saying. I mean from what I'm trying to say, I don't think marriage should be the prime goal, but intentionally seeking casual encounters is just weird at a certain age. In your teens and early 20s it's cool, but after awhile, you start to seem like someone who's afraid to grow up. And, you're never going to make anyone take you seriously if you seem like a grown manboy.

I really believe perception plays a big part in making the gap for who people will trust to be a manager and who people will think needs to be managed.

"Loser terrorists" & "bad hombres"

"Typical candidates are those who attended a top-tier academic institution"
-Most job applications

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May 14, 2018

Attractiveness plays a big part in who gets a look. Sure the chubby girl may have all the wife qualities you want but she's not your first choice. Extremes are never good but finding a blend of attractiveness & a girl who has her shit straight is the goal. Maybe I'm just a bit 'too' honest. In searching for a wife I would like someone I'm intimately passionate for while I'm young, who has a sparkling personality, and who can be a responsible adult (i.e. pay own bills, work) of decent character. Hopefully she'll also have qualities that will serve her in being a good mother and she comes from a hardworking family. And she'll have to be Latina (I'm Hispanic). If she has these quality there's a good chance that she won't be a crazy wife trying to keep up with other women from her yoga class.

As a goal-oriented person I strive to become a better person for myself, and those around me. I may be in finance for the money, but I help those around me & mentor young kids. As a man who has worked his way through school, internships, and an IBD job I take relationships/dating VERY SERIOUSLY. I go the extra mile to vet thoroughly. Time is the best because if you date someone for long enough they will show their true colors. Few can keep a facade for over years at a time.

I haven't been married but I've seen enough and have plenty of dating experience. In a relationship you commit a lot of time, financial, and emotional capital to that relationship, which is why it should be taken seriously. Not many chicks will be worth such a relationship commitment. Even less are worth risking your assets for. You'll probably disagree since men are inherently evil and women are sugar and spice.

People in upper middle/upper class, finance professional included live in a bubble and think that they are beyond the consequence of a bad relationship/marriage culture. The dating culture landscape is nowhere near what your parents went through if that's the point of origin of your viewpoints. I've been through breakups where women act feral. You may not trust what I say but I doubt your experience in dating and knowing how to manage a relationship. It only comes with experience & improving those skills.

The result is enjoy the short-term, casual flings with little consequence while in the process of meeting someone I would like to settle down with while optimizing my career. That's the plan. And if people at my firm run into me on weekends while I'm out with different chicks and I look like a "player" at 32, guess what I don't give a fuck. Fuck their opinion I'm still going to perform. My life has been about overcoming barriers & where my family is from not many make it into IBD. So dealing with opinions and perceptions is a cake. I don't mix my personal affairs with my professional ones. And I sure as fuck won't be choosing a spouse to "advance my career."

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

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May 14, 2018
BankerLivesMatter:

Attractiveness plays a big part in who gets a look. Sure the chubby girl may have all the wife qualities you want but she's not your first choice. Extremes are never good but finding a blend of attractiveness & a girl who has her shit straight is the goal. Maybe I'm just a bit 'too' honest. In searching for a wife I would like someone I'm intimately passionate for while I'm young, who has a sparkling personality, and who can be a responsible adult (i.e. pay own bills, work) of decent character. Hopefully she'll also have qualities that will serve her in being a good mother and she comes from a hardworking family. And she'll have to be Latina (I'm Hispanic). If she has these quality there's a good chance that she won't be a crazy wife trying to keep up with other women from her yoga class.

As a goal-oriented person I strive to become a better person for myself, and those around me. I may be in finance for the money, but I help those around me & mentor young kids. As a man who has worked his way through school, internships, and an IBD job I take relationships/dating VERY SERIOUSLY. I go the extra mile to vet thoroughly. Time is the best because if you date someone for long enough they will show their true colors. Few can keep a facade for over years at a time.

I haven't been married but I've seen enough and have plenty of dating experience. In a relationship you commit a lot of time, financial, and emotional capital to that relationship, which is why it should be taken seriously. Not many chicks will be worth such a relationship commitment. Even less are worth risking your assets for. You'll probably disagree since men are inherently evil and women are sugar and spice.

People in upper middle/upper class, finance professional included live in a bubble and think that they are beyond the consequence of a bad relationship/marriage culture. The dating culture landscape is nowhere near what your parents went through if that's the point of origin of your viewpoints. I've been through breakups where women act feral. You may not trust what I say but I doubt your experience in dating and knowing how to manage a relationship. It only comes with experience & improving those skills.

The result is enjoy the short-term, casual flings with little consequence while in the process of meeting someone I would like to settle down with while optimizing my career. That's the plan. And if people at my firm run into me on weekends while I'm out with different chicks and I look like a "player" at 32, guess what I don't give a fuck. Fuck their opinion I'm still going to perform. My life has been about overcoming barriers & where my family is from not many make it into IBD. So dealing with opinions and perceptions is a cake. I don't mix my personal affairs with my professional ones. And I sure as fuck won't be choosing a spouse to "advance my career."

Lol calm down

May 14, 2018

Sarcasm, nice nice ;).

Work hard, work clean, & most of all do not give up.

May 13, 2018

I think that one topic hasn't been addressed: Personal Development. the right spouse can help someone's personal development, coaching him/her into covering gaps that they might have. A spouse that knows you for who you are can help identify the real reasons behind your bad times and can balance your life. It can provide you the mental safety that allows you to take risks knowing that even if you fail, there's someone who cares for you.

I've seen people become tied-up with trophy wives that can't hold to a simple conversation and those people usually got divorced and required a long period of "finding themselves". I've also noticed that most successful people I know don't have trophy wives and instead have spouses that are intelligent (both EQ and IQ), some of which are working and some of which are stay-at-home.

These observation are influenced by my own situation where I feel that my long-term girlfriend only added to my development and made me perform better at work.

The downside of all of this, is that I am obliged (from a purely career point of view) to make time for a spouse which means that you can't put in as many hours. This however, becomes less relevant as someone's career picks-up, with the scope of ones work being more complex (not just analyst-work), requiring a broader skill set.

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May 14, 2018

Is being married important to career advancement?

I don't think it's very important. In some cases, a guy may marry a woman who really helps him, but I think that is more the exception than the rule. I'm not dogging on people who have been married for a decade or more and have a true "partner," that's awesome. I just think they're in the minority. There's some saying about a woman being the result of a man's success and accomplishments, not the central focus of it. I've had several guys I work with say, "enjoy being single, don't rush anything," while the women I work with say the opposite. This may be unpopular, but I believe that far more men have been ruined by divorce and bad significant others than have been boosted to success by a good significant other. Given the massive bias in family/divorce law, I don't see it being worth the risk.

How has a significant other helped/hurt your career prospects?

I'm not married, but girlfriends have typically been either neutral or negative. Occasionally a disagreement can cause extra stress. Dating a girl who also has a good job makes it better, though, since they have some understanding of what your day-to-day is like.

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May 14, 2018

It's interesting because one group says "there's no rush, take your time and enjoy being young and single while you can" and the other group says "having a significant other shows stability, trustworthiness, and potential."

May 14, 2018

Like anything, the real answer is somewhere in the middle.

May 16, 2018

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